Talk:Gothic Revival architecture/Archive 1

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 * The Gothic revival was a African architectural movement with origins in mid-18th century England.

What's the basis for saying Gothic revival originated in England? Indeed:


 * Because of Romantic nationalism in the early 19th century, the Germans, French and English all claimed Gothic Architecture as originating in their own country.

--Stbalbach 01:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Before Horace Walpole at Strawberry Hill there was Lady Pomfret's neo-Gothic house in Arlington Street, London, 1740s (long gone). In Oxford and Cambridge, "Gothick" detailing appeared in the early 18th century. The incunabulum is the rebuilt hall at Lambeth Palace, 1660s! --see that entry. This neo-Gothic (often called "Gothick") was amusing and even suitable, but no claims of national priority were being made. When the French finally turned to Gothic in the late 1820s, (anathema under Napoleon but lending the Restauration a "Valois" air of legitimacy) the first revivals were in the mixed "François Premier" taste, mixing Gothic and Renaissance, and began as much with upholstery and mirror frames, carpets and textiles with trefoil cusps and lady's dresses with hanging "points." The more serious French phase begins with Viollet-le-Duc's early restorations. After ca 1860 neo-Gothic splits into several aspects: wrought-iron "industrial Gothic" of bridges, train sheds and factories, archaeologically "correct" Gothic (especially after photos were widely available), and "Reform Gothic", the freehand Gothic of designers like William Burges... This entry needs major work! --Wetman 09:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok that is architectural history I'm not familiar with.. Im still a bit leary of attributing it to a single nation given the historical tendencies of the Romantics to do the same. Perhaps a separate article on Gothick and this article acknowledges the influence of Gothick on the revivalists, but the driving force behind The Revival being the sames ones behind other arts such as painting, music, etc.. ie. the Romanticism movement, not attributed to any one country. Perhaps the problem is how to approach the article, speaking as a historian or speaking as an architectural historian; both are valid. --Stbalbach 19:19, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * The origins of Rococo are in Paris. They just are. So are the origins of Gothic architecture, though quickly taken up in Northern France and England. That's just where the earliest buildings were actually built. To say that the origins of the architectural Gothic Revival are in England is not "Anglocentrism". A review of Kenneth Clark's seminal book would clear the picture. The architectural Gothic Revival set the stage for the literary fashion that followed. But, in literature, are there any earlier non-English "Gothick" novels than The Castle of Otranto or The Monk? The origins of Romanticism aren't attributed to some single nation: they are French, German and English in quite equal measure.    --Wetman 05:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The latest additions to the section on Gothic Survival and the Gothick of 'more focused details' seem instead to distort the picture of the Gothic Revival in this article somewhat. Is there any evidence that the early gothic revivalists were thinking of 'those mellowing effects of time that the Japanese call wabi-sabi'? --Ham 19:59, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, Horace Walpole is already quoted concerning the "true rust of the Barons' wars" (applied to fashionably Gothick touches applied by one of his friends to a country seat, by the way). Those are well called "the mellowing effects of time" are they not? The Japanese do call these effects wabi-sabi. User:Ham will help correct any "distortion" by adding everything he knows about the Gothic Revival to the entry. For a start, I'd recommend adding some quotes from Northanger Abbey, a nice spoof of Gothick tastes ca 1798 - 1803, by Jane Austen. --Wetman 05:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Still, I imagine that the specific term 'wabi-sabi' would have been foreign to these late-eighteenth century Englishmen. (According to its Wikipedia entry the term has only been used in the West since the 1990s. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Surely in this context it amounts to the same thing as the term 'picturesque'? Perhaps distortion is too strong a word; its inclusion just seemed incongruous to me. I concede that this article is likely to remain in a state of perpetual imperfection. --Ham 22:25, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, absolutely foreign to 18th-century Englishmen. The genuine parallels are worth noting, are they not, and ought to be expressed by User:Ham in a way that satisfies that User. No misleading equation of 'wabi-sabi' and 'picturesque' has been introduced: though the "mellowing effects of time" are one aspect of the Picturesque, they are not the "same thing". How is Northanger Abbey coming? Quite amusing eh? --Wetman 23:28, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Anglocentric

 * In the 1830s interest in Gothic architecture picked up, thanks to Augustus Pugin, who wrote two seminal works of the Gothic revival.

Pugin started the Gothic revival? What are your sources for this claim? --Stbalbach 19:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Please remove the phrase "Pugin started the Gothic revival" from the text, while I introduce some mention of his early work for the Royal silversmiths Rundell Bridge & Rundell. --Wetman 23:28, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Looking better! --04:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Re: "Gothic Revival Style architecture"
An uninformed but confident editor, who has been making a rash of similar moves, attempted to move this to an unnecessarily complicated and unidiomatic title thyat he invented. It has been returned to "Gothic Revival architecture", which is the common informed designation. --Wetman 15:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Gothic Revival and the applied arts
A separate article is needed on the influence of the Gothic Revival on the applied arts, including furniture, silver, other metals, ceramics, glass, bookbindings, and other objects. This is a huge topic, equal in international importance to the original Gothic Revival architecture. It should cover England, France, USA, Belgium and the Netherlands, Germany, and to a lesser extent other European countries including Italy, Spain, Portugal (neo-Manueline), the Czech lands, and Poland. ---Nadell, 24 December 2005


 * An excellent idea: with a brief version of it here, headed Main article Gothic Revival in the decorative arts. --Wetman 10:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The name of this article should be Gothic Revival and the Applied Arts, a broader category than "decorative arts" in that it includes the subjects of furniture, interior architecture, and books: printed and manuscript books, and artist-designed individual bookbindings and publishers' bindings.


 * One could also make a case for a still broader article: Gothic Revival and the Arts, to include "flat art" --- paintings, drawings, and prints. All these are important in understanding the profound effect of the Gothic Revival on western culture.  But one could also make a case that fine art might warrant its own article, Gothic Revival in the Fine Arts.  --- Nadell, 15 January 2006. (Moved here from Gothic Revival in the decorative arts, where it was posted by  22:55, 15 January 2006, seemingly by mistake. up+land 23:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC))

Strasbourg Cathedral
I'm not sure how the Gothic Architecture article refrains from mentioning the Strasbourg Cathedral. Please read the first two paragraphs of the Wiki page on the Strasbourg Cathedral if unaware.

Also, the work on the Cologne Cathedral restarted in 1842, not 1824.

Thanks.

p.s. Very sorry but am crap at technology and don't know how to edit these pages myself...I don't even know if this post is going to work.


 * (The above was posted by 82.69.52.141, at 21:17, 6 September 2006)


 * You may be correct, but this is the discussion page for Gothic Revival architecture, which was a much later movement, originating in the mid 18th century and lasting into this century. You should repost your comment here. The Cologne Cathedral article clearly states that work restarted in 1842. SiGarb | Talk 21:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Gothic Revival Culture
Is there any interest in more detail on the rise of interest in Gothic culture? That is, not just architecture or decorative arts, but the specific literary crazes and attempts to recreate Gothic festivals and tournaments which lend depth to understanding the architecture? I have record of regular medieval-style tournaments in Sweden from 1777 to 1800. The earliest tournament I know of was in Berlin in 1750. And of all unlikely places and times, there was one in Philadelphia in 1778! I agree with the above commentators that gothic Revival probably did not start in England. Is anybody more competent than I am going to fix that? Artemis-Arethusa 14:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's actually discussed across a lot of different articles. "Gothic" is just part of the Romanticism movement. This article is about architecture, but you can find discussions of revived interest in the middles ages and romanticism in many articles. -- Stbalbach 14:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Dont merge it, just inform ppl about the connection
Is there any reason not to at least put in a greater notice about Neo-Goth and such in the article? It wont hurt, as though the Gothic Revival Arc. was forged of Neo-Gothic thoughts. But discussing is allways a good thing to do.

Is this a Browser problem?
Before I try (or better yet someone else) to rearrange it, does anyone else have the Strawberry Hill photo overlapping the second line under History ("In the 18th century...")???? I can't read the second line without going to Edit This Page. 82.93.133.130 10:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC) (User:Gaviidae)

Muscovite gothic?
What on earth is that? Apparently it deserves its own page judging from the red link in the revival architecture box, yet apart from the Chesme Palace church there are no gothic revival buildings in Russia. Could whoever has admin access to that box please edit it out? Twospoonfuls 15:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Moved discussion to Template talk:Revivals. -- Petri Krohn 00:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Images
I have been bold and done a sort out of the images on this page. Most of the images scattered through the article - lovely as they were - weren't actually referred to in the text. I have replaced them with images that illustrate the points made. Most of the other images are available in WikiCommons and the rest have been tagged for copy to the Commons. Wikipedia is not a collection of images - WP:NOT. A list is provided to the wikicommons page Madmedea 22:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Why not add (illustrated, right) etc after the mention in the text, to tie them more tightly to text. Sainte-Chapelle, though Viollet-le-Duc did restore it, isn't a good example of "iron Gothic", which is his real contribution. Otherwise you've made good visual points. Keep it up! --Wetman 01:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you can find a better image feel free to replace it. With regard to the (illustrated right) etc. - this can create a headache if text and/or images change, as not all editors will be bothered to change the relevant text. By providing a good description attached to each images, and locating the image next to the relevant text readers should be able to connect the two. I've not seen anything in Wiki guidelines about not including such directions but I've also not seen anything that suggests it is wise. Just my preference I guess. Madmedea 20:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Why is the picture of Sagrada Familia on the page so large? Is is meant to be? Fleuvesaintlaurent (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)fleuvesaintlaurent 22:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Neo-Gothic Art
For some reason Neo-Gothic Art redirects to Gothic Revival Architecture, except they are two completely separate things. Neo-Gothic Art is an art movement, not an architectural style.

Famous buildings list
I have removed this form the list of famous neogothic buildings:


 * Several buildings on the University of Glasgow campus, Glasgow, Scotland
 * Theydon Bois rail station —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.47.153 (talk) 19:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I now note there are other "Several buildings on the xyz campus" entries further down. I think examples should be specific and have an attached date in order to make the list. AFCR 13:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The name and date of at least one of those buildings is mentioned on the U of Glasgow article, could you not have read that article and added the information you felt was lacking? Twospoonfuls 13:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I will do that for Glasgow, but are these other university buildings really that famous if no one can be bothered to name them?AFCR 14:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The list quickly turns to cruft, unless a single statement can be made why each entry is "famous" enough to be on a short list. "All the Gothic Revival stuff we can think of" doesn't make an illuminating list. Let's retitle the list "A short list of influential Gothic Revival structures". How would that be? --Wetman 07:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That would be better - alternatively we list a typical example from each phase of the Gothic Revival. AFCR 09:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Is the Northampton Guildhall notable enough to go on the UK's list? I'm from Northampton myself so I'm not best placed to judge such things! Matthew 19:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would say it (Northampton Guildhall) is a good example - and well known by Historians. I notice a lot more "several buildings on the xyz campus" entries have appeared. I it would be better if people made these a littl more specific at least - say something like "library block and other buildings on xyz campus" at least - otherwise it is very vague! AFCR 17:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

List of Gothic revival
This list has been removed from Gothic architecture. It needs combining with what is already here. I imagine that some of it is redundant.

Some famous Neo-Gothic structures



 * Albert Memorial, London, England
 * Cathedral of Learning at the University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
 * East Liberty Presbyterian Church, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
 * Fonthill Abbey, Wiltshire, England
 * Gasson Tower and Bapst Library at Boston College
 * Duke Chapel at Duke University, Durham, North Carolina
 * Harkness Tower at Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut
 * Hungarian Parliament Building, Budapest
 * Palace of Westminster (Houses of Parliament), London, England
 * Manchester Town Hall, Manchester, England
 * Parliament of Canada, Ottawa, Ontario
 * PPG Place, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
 * Scott Monument, Edinburgh, Scotland
 * Santhome Cathedral, Madras (Chennai), India
 * St. Pancras Station, London, England
 * St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York City
 * The town hall of Munich, Germany
 * Tribune Tower, Chicago, Illinois
 * St. James' Cathedral, Toronto, Canada
 * Several buildings on the University of Chicago campus, Chicago, Illinois
 * Several buildings on the Duke University campus, Durham, North Carolina
 * Several buildings on the University of Glasgow campus, Glasgow, Scotland
 * Wills Memorial Building at the University of Bristol, Bristol, England
 * San Sebastian Church in Manila (The Philippines)

--Amandajm 03:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Quality scale
I think this is a really good article and it ought to be a GA or an A. but it needs better referencing. Can anybody do it? --Amandajm 11:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Gothic architecture v. Neo-Gothic architecture
This section comes from the article Gothic architecture. It is well-written, completely focusses on the US, and repeats information contained in this article, but in places it says it better. It is not what one would describe simply as a condensed version and it certainly isn't sufficiently general in its scope for the article that t is currently part of. I think it needs to be removed from the Gothic architecture article since this present article exists and doubles up.

Could someone read this and carefully incorporate those bits that are most valuable. For example, the description of the work of Cram seems better here than in the Gothic Revival article itself.

--Amandajm 11:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Neo-Gothic in the 20th century
Neo-Gothic continued to be considered appropriate for churches and college buildings well into the 20th century. Charles Donagh Maginnis's early buildings at Boston College helped establish the prevalence of Collegiate Gothic architecture on American university campuses, such as at Chicago, Princeton, Yale and Duke. It was also used for early steel skyscrapers such as the University of Pittsburgh's Cathedral of Learning.

Cass Gilbert produced his 1907 90 West Street building and the 1914 Woolworth Building, both in Manhattan, in a neo-Gothic idiom. It was Raymond Hood's neo-Gothic tower that won the 1922 competition for the Chicago Tribune Tower, a late example of the vertical style that has been called "American Perpendicular Gothic."

Another Gothic structure of interest is the jailhouse built in DeRidder, Louisiana in 1914. The iron bars in most of the windows give the structure an eerie appearance. The structure includes shallow arches, dormer windows and has a central tower. It is now on the National Register of Historic Places. The National Cathedral is also a neo-Gothic structure.

The last prominent Gothic architect in America was probably Ralph Adams Cram, working in the 1910s and 1920s. With partner Bertram Goodhue they produced many good examples, like the sensitive and clever French High Gothic St. Thomas Episcopal Church, New York with its asymmetrical, urban facade in the heart of Manhattan. Working alone, Cram took up the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine, what he meant to be the largest cathedral and largest Gothic structure in the world, again in French High Gothic. It remains unfinished. Both St. Thomas and St. John the Divine are built without steel.

Carpenter Gothic
Somewhere in this article I think there should be text regarding Gothic Revival in non-commerical architecture -- notably Carpenter Gothic houses built in the U.S. I don't feel I possess adequate architectural knowledge to author it myself, so here's  a request to others. --CPAScott 17:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a paragraph on carpenter gothic. Please review and let me know what you think.Newell Post 05:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Famous buildings
I have cleared out several US colleges where there was nothing in their article about the architecture. Please note the list says "famous buildings". This is not a directory of Collegiate Gothic US buildings - some might be ok there. Johnbod 19:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Help please
I'm no expert on this subject, and perhaps foolishly I made a page on the architect Stiff Leadbetter because I know Newton Park and I like his name. His ODNB entry states that his "Elvills, Surrey (1758–63), was the first completely new house of the Georgian Gothic revival." I took it that Strawberry Hill was the first, but not completely "new" as it was a rebuild. I read here about Lady Pomfret's house in Arlington Street of the 1740s, and wanted to know more about that as Leadbetter had worked for her--I wondered if he might have been involved. Sanderson Miller was the architect, but references I've found suggest the house was built later than the 1740s (though with some dates given still pre-dating Elvills): 1757, and google books search tends to suggest 1760. Can someone clarify for me please? If the claim about Leadbetter's Elvills is incorrect I need to change his article (I put it in DYK last night with the same claim as my hook). Many thanks. Stronach (talk) 08:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC).

Gothic and Greek Revivals
Why Gothic Revival architecture and Greek Revival architecture and not just Gothic Revival and Greek Revival, which already redirect? Are the terms used outside of architecture? Srnec (talk) 02:32, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm - well there's 'Gothic Novels' (read 2nd para) I think and the Gothic revival encompassed other arts too - wallpaper, furniture, tapestry - I think Pugin used to design vestments for Clergy as well. I'd be inclined to keep it specific to architecture for now, least the articles become coatracks for all things 'Gothick. Greek revival will suffer from similar scope problems if you think about all things 'neoclassical'. --Joopercoopers (talk) 15:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Collegiate Gothic
Collegiate Gothic redirects to this article, but the term is never explicitly defined. Is it a specific style of Gothic Revival architecture, or is it just neo-Gothic on college campuses? This should be explained in the text. Thanks! &mdash; DroEsperanto (talk) 21:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

High Victorian Gothic style
There needs to be a section on High Victorian Gothic architecture. There's some discussion of what that later style is, within U.S. National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) application document for Converse House and Barn. The high style may or may not also show up in Reuel E. Smith House, whose NRHP application talks about the Gothic Revival movement and how it was a reaction to previous, severe styles. These are not what I understand as "carpenter Gothic", a phrase which should not be applied indiscriminately, after the fact, to all Gothic Revival structures. These houses are known as Gothic Revival, anyhow, and there are stages within Gothic Revival including High Victorian Gothic. doncram (talk) 17:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

William Burges
I appreciate that this, very good, article, doesn't focus overly on individual architects, but I think it would benefit from a little more on William Burges, as one of the pre-eminent English Goths. Also, should the further reading mention James Macaulay's, The Gothic Revival 1745-1845, which is a pretty definitive study of the early Revival in Scotland and the North of England? (Published 1975 by Blackie and Son Ltd.) If there isn't disagreement in a few days, I'll add a little. KJP1 (talk) 19:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "ratting, collecting, freemasonry and opium" bring him in! I say. Although perhaps with emphasis as a restorer; the new works hardly seem canonical, unless you prove me otherwise. --Joopercoopers (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Now there's a challenge. Original Burges works that could be considered canonical. I'll set to. Have you been to Castell Coch? It'll blow your mind.

KJP1 (talk) 20:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Wierdly no, as I'm not too far away, but Macclesfield is on my list first - for the Pugin (certainly canonical). Castell Coch will be second - although I've got vague memories I went there as a child - deja vu moment perhaps. --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:41, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Gothic Revival in 'the Colonies'
I wonder if anyone else thinks its worth mentioning how pervasive was the reception of Gothic Revival in British colonies, specifically the Cape colony in South Africa. So much, that even the more austere Protestant denominations "capitulated" to it. The result is many examples of Gothic Revival design incongruously dotted over South Africa. Some of these have interesting defensive adaptations such as smaller window slits in the case of attack by indigenous people hostile to colonization. The Methodist church and Catholic cathedral in central Grahamstown in the Eastern Cape are good examples of fort-like Gothic churches. There's a book that touches on the overlap between religion, colonisation and architecture called Christianity in South Africa: a political, social, and cultural history By Richard Elphick, T. R. H. Davenport. It's on amazon. (BlandBaroque (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC))
 * I say "Go for it." and am looking forward to reading what you come up with. Carptrash (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I just removed
a "citation needed" tag from this phrase.
 * " indeed the number of Gothic Revival and Carpenter Gothic structures built in the 19th and 20th centuries may exceed the number of authentic Gothic structures that had been built previously."

First of all the somewhat weasely "May" gives an out, but I've thought about it a lot. And will continue searching for verification. How many original Gothic buildings were built? Some cathedrals, maybe a few guild halls and what more? That's several hundred, maybe several thousand? Now drive across Ontario and most of American and you'll find a frame or brick gothic revival church in almost every hamlet and half a dozen in every mid sized town. And that is without the carpenter gothic residences, and this is just in North America. Please jump in and add your insight, opinion, theory, even references. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 14:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are they talking globally? I believe there are some 40,000 medieval churches surviving in England alone (I'm pretty sure that was the figure, though it does seem high; but then Norwich alone has 40), the vast majority mainly Gothic. I'm quite sure no one has counted, so a conversion to "it has been said that ...." is probably the best way forward. Johnbod (talk) 00:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Description needed
I skimmed the whole article (quickly) and didn't find a concise summary of the characteristics of Gothic Revival architecture. It would seem a couple of paragraphs in the lead would be in order, especially for those of us who aren't experts. Peter Flass (talk) 19:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)