Talk:Great Polish Map of Scotland

Untitled
An interesting article, it will make a good candidate for one of the Wikipedia features, such as 'Did You Know'. I've classed it as 'start' for now, because it could probably do with a bit more info about future plans to restore it, to balance out the lengthy section about its history. But all-in-all, well done!! Sionk (talk) 14:17, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the advice. I'll continue to monitor the progress of the map as it undergoes restoration and add information that will give less prominence to the history. Kim Traynor (talk) 16:08, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Name
I've been looking at the sources in the article and looking online for references to this map. I can't find any that call it 'Mapa Scotland'. It is always referred to as the 'Great Polish Map of Scotland', or something similar. 'Mapa Scotland' seems to be the name of the group/committee that has been set up to restore the map. Unless strong evidence can be found to the contrary, I think the article should be moved to the name 'Great Polish Map of Scotland' (there will remain a redirect from 'Mapa Scotland'). Sionk (talk) 17:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I hadn't spotted that but I think you are right. I had recently created a redirect in the opposite direction so I have overwritten it now before anyone puts in a tag. Thincat (talk) 18:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Largest in world?
The restoration group is calling the map the largest relief map in the world and I can see another, supposedly indepent site repeating the claim. However, this at 220 m long would have been larger although it seems it has been cut up and stored in crates! Thincat (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * That definitely sounds a lot bigger than the Socttish or Canadian models! We don't seem to know where the claim, that the Scottish model is the biggest, came from. If I submit a 'Did You Know' I'll probably just give its dimensions and leave the conculsion to other people. Sionk (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, The size of the thing still seems the best headline but "largest" is too strong (unless qualified quite a lot). The California map might be worth mentioning as a footnote (or even as a separate article if there are sufficient references). Thincat (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've sent an email to Guinness Book of Records asking if they have an entry for the world's largest map. None of the obvious search terms bring up any result from their website search. Unfortunately, their automated response tells me I have to wait 4-6 weeks before they reply, unless, that is, I want to fast track the inquiry for the princely sum of £450! I think I'll wait. Kim Traynor (talk) 00:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Mmm. I see web sites claiming the Guinness Book of Records saying this BC map is the largest in the world. I have not found any definite reference. I have been confusing it with this map, also of BC, which, despite the headline, says "world’s largest physical-terrain model ever created from digital-data sources" with no reference to GBR. Now, my son has Guinness World Records for 2006, 2008 and 2011 (as well as other records books) and I can't find anything at all on these lines. My guess is that the Challenger Relief Map of British Columbia (1954-1997) was indeed listed but possibly decades ago. The Challenger map looks definitely much smaller than GPMS at 80 x 76 feet (ignore their erroneous conversion to square metres!). Thincat (talk) 14:30, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless it is a published fact, we should not say it is a fact. However, Mapa Scotland say the Great Polish Map is 2.8 times bigger in land area than the BC map, so it is valid to report that Mapa Scotland make this claim. Sionk (talk) 15:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and even if we found a reliable independent source (like Guinness) saying the GPMS was the largest, I think even then we could only report the claim and not that it was indeed actually the largest. It would be a better claim, of course. There are no end of uncertainties including how to count dismantled or destroyed constructions. Thincat (talk) 18:18, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments from wkb21 on "largest in the world":

Two other intact 3d terrain models claim to be the largest in the world:

1. The “Challenger” model of British Columbia, (http://www.challengermap.org/home.htm) This map of British Columbia, Canada, claims dimensions of 80ft x 76ft, thus “The Guinness Book of Records cites the Challenger Map as the largest of its' kind in the world. The map in its entirety occupies 6,080 square feet (1,850 square metres) of space.” However, whilst 80ft x 76ft is indeed 6080 sq.ft. – it is not 1850 sq.m! To convert sq.ft. to sq.m. you must multiply by (0.3048 x 0.3048) – which gives 565 sq.m.

2.  There is another map of British Columbia, Canada here, http://www.solidterrainmodeling.com/bc.htm It claims dimensions of 40ft x 74ft = 2960 sq.ft. or 275 sq.m.

The Great Polish Map of Scotland at Barony Castle, Eddleston, Scotland is a 1:10,000 linear scale model of Scotland. Scotland’s land area is 76,409 sq km. At a scale of 1:10,000 this makes the model’s land area alone (without intervening sea areas) 76,409 x 1000 x 1000 sq m) / (10,000 x 10,000) = 764 sq m. So it appears that the Great Polish Map of Scotland is indeed the largest existing 3d terrain model in the world, at 760 sq.m. land area.  Therefore this should be adequate corroboration of Mapa Scotland's claim.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkb21 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The BC map is already mentioned in the article. Unfortunately it is not adequate to add our own conclusions to the article - that would be original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. We can only include what has been reliably reported. But thanks for your input all the same! Sionk (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The chinese built an Aksai Chin terrain model for military purposes. It measures 900 × 700 m (3,000 × 2,300 ft) - definitely much larger than Mapa Scotland. So I suggest to change the Did you know text from "is claimed to be the largest terrain relief model in the world" into "is claimed to be the largest civilian terrain relief model in the world" Shorr (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Impressive!! There's no need to change the DYK text (probably too late now anyway) because the claim is only a claim, not a proven fact. Sionk (talk) 09:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Photos
The photos are a great asset and I like the gallery and layout as it is in the current version. I wonder if it might be good to swap round the "West Coast" and "looking northwards" images since the former is more striking. Mull of Kintyre could be included in the "West Coast" legend since it is a point of focus and some Paul McCartney fans may have heard of this even if they have not heard of Scotland! Thincat (talk) 18:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I have only just realized that Kim has annotated commons:File:The Great Polish Map Of Scotland (Mapa Scotland), Barony Castle.JPG. I don't know about these things but for me this only appears when I look at the file on Commons. Can something be done about this? Also, this might affect my opinion about which photo should be at the top. Anyway, it is worth drawing attention to the annotation in the legend or the text. Thincat (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually I didn't realise this annotation facility existed for images. Either way I don't think it is appropriate for a main space article. If people want to know which part of Scotland is which, they can find out elsewhere. Sionk (talk) 23:43, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The annotation feature only works at Commons, and even then only when one clicks the description page button below the image one sees when it is first presented. I use this feature quite a lot (see the old maps on the pages for Battle of Pinkie, Siege of Leith and Edinburgh University for example). You have to scroll far down to find the See annotations button, so I don't think many people know this feature exists. I have twice tried to send a message to Commons via the Wikipedia village pump that they should advertise annotations on the first line immediately below the image, so that people become more aware of their existence. I'm sure it would encourage a lot more people to annotate the images they post. Kim Traynor (talk) 15:56, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Re Thincat's suggestion of transposing the images. I have no distinct preference either way, but I think the current lead image has the slight advantage that it attempts to show the whole of the map. Ground-level photos don't do it justice, hence the external link to the RCAHMS aerial images. Kim Traynor (talk) 16:01, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

'Did You Know' nomination
I've submitted a DYK nomination (within the 5-day time limit) currently at Template:Did you know nominations/Great Polish Map of Scotland.

I believe it has to go through a review process before it stands a chance of appearing on the Wikipedia front page, as per Did_you_know

Fingers crossed! Sionk (talk) 15:47, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Things look to be going well. It has passed the major hurdles (quite deservedly). Thincat (talk) 15:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Sionk for taking that initiative. I've only just realised that I've been continuing to discuss the article on my own talkpage rather than here. I have quite a lot on my mind at present! Kim Traynor (talk) 15:58, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

pdf files at www.makers.org.uk
Following the comment at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Great_Polish_Map_of_Scotland I have added a .pdf extension to the reference to http://www.makers.org.uk/place/scotinscot Surprisingly, both URLs work (for me). I experimented with the other two pdf files referenced to this site: http://www.makers.org.uk/place/breda and http://www.makers.org.uk/place/Maczek and neither work with .pdf extensions. The last two weren't commented on at DYK. I use Firefox but have tested with IE and Chrome with the same results. Thincat (talk) 06:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, I forgot to comment on that on the DYK nom, but the same applies for the other two links: I can download the file, add the "pdf" extension and it opens, but my browser (Firefox) doesn't open them by itself. Odd...Constantine  ✍  09:36, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The map is not the territory
It's rather jarring when the first thing you notice on a page is a photo that is captioned "The West Coast of Scotland viewed from a point off the Mull of Kintyre", but that shows not sea and cliffs but grass and stones!* I've prefixed the caption with "The Great Map: ".

* After reading the article I know that the "stones" are concrete, but they look like stones.

(I couldn't resist the section title. To me as a linguist, this phrase and the metaphor it refers to are part of my everyday vocabulary, but I've never had the opportunity to use it literally before!) --Thnidu (talk) 04:33, 16 March 2014 (UTC)