Talk:Greek government-debt crisis/Archive 8

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Dr. Carbo Valverde's comment on this article
Dr. Carbo Valverde has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"The good thing about this entry is that the crisis issues are discussed from a very objective point of view, leaving political opinions aside. However, I would certainly mention political instability and the cabinet reshuffles and political changes to a larger extent. The page would also need to be updated including the events of 2016."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

We believe Dr. Carbo Valverde has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:


 * Reference : Camba-Mendez, Gonzalo & Carbo-Valverde, Santiago & Rodriguez-Palenzuela, Diego, 2014. "Financial reputation, market interventions and debt issuance by banks: a truncated two-part model approach," Working Paper Series 1741, European Central Bank.

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 15:25, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Serious confusion
This sentence: ''"Another driver of its investment inflow was Greece's membership in the EU, which helped lower the yields on its government bonds following the Eurozone's creation." makes no sense. It seems to imply that the lower yields were the cause of investment inflows. This is ass backwards. What happened, and what the source actually says is this:

Before joining the Eurozone, investors thought Greece was risky and were not willing to lend to its government except at really high interest rates.

After joining the Eurozone that perception changed and investors were willing to lend to Greece at low interest rates.

The Greek government took advantage of these low interest rates and borrowed a lot.

Then it turned out Greece was risky after all and those interest rates spiked again.

So yes, Greece's membership in the EU was "another driver of its investment" (what's the first one?). But no, lower yields on its government bonds were not. If anything, these were a symptom, not a cause.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:45, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Unbalanced article
The section "Germany's role in Greece" is much longer than any other section, be it the section "Causes", "Chronology", or "Effects". It leads to the impression that Germany is the center of the Greek debt crisis and Greece is "blaming" others for problems in Greece. Is that intended? --Thereisnofreename (talk) 14:04, 27 November 2016 (UTC) Indeed - the whole section "Hypocrisy" should be removed as one gigantic case of whataboutery. Enumerating casses of tax avoidance or tax fraud in Germany is completely off topic and smacks of national point-scoring. No place for that in an encyclopedia - if people think it's important enough, part of it would have to be moved as a subsection to an article on "tax system in Germany" or something like that. I might wait for some time, and unless people raise factual objections here, go on to remove or massively prune that section. Given the level of emotions raised by the topic it might even be sensible to consider restricting the ability to edit the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.76.68.13 (talk) 14:39, 18 December 2016 (UTC) Pruned some of the most obvious off topic whataboutery from the "Hypocrisy section". Similar treatment required for the "Pursuit of national self-interest" section, which is overly long (diverting to general economic issues, even bringing up China's yuan and intra-EU free movement of people), peppered with literal quotes and often written in highly un-encyclopedic language (emotive, ironic, sometimes arguing like a seminary paper or a party pamphlet; e.g. "chained to the euro", "A research paper by Credit Suisse concurred", "As if to emphasise the root problem", "The US has also repeatedly, and heatedly, asked Germany to", "These October 2013 Treasury Department observations would germinate in the very poorest of soil", "Battered by criticism", "Greece had been making 'progress': private-sector wages fell", "Merkel moved to counteract, cementing the impossibility of a recovery for struggling countries").

Needs more info on causes
The part that talks about causes needs more detail. Flanagan Athenian (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

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Social Effects of the Crises
The current article includes things such as: "Other Effects" showing how Horse Racing was impacted by the Greek debt crises, and also effects on soccer players. See section 7.4 of the article.

For this reason, the social effects from the crises is more important than the effects of the crises on Horse Racing or Soccer Players (no offense soccer fans). Therefore the social effects section needs to include facts such as the higher HIV rates in Greece attributed to the crises, and also report information from the World Health Organization (WHO), part of the United Nations.

Below is the research I performed on this:

Huffingtonpost had the following to say on the social effects: From a social effects impact, the crises was tied to the rising rates of HIV, Depression and Infant-Deaths in Greece.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/20/greece-financial-crisis-impact_n_4827063.html

While the WHO reported the following:

In 2013 the World Health Organization office for Greece, reported that Greek HIV rates and heroin use in Greece, have risen significantly, with about half of new Greek HIV infections being self-inflicted by Greeks to enable Greeks to receive benefits of €700 per month and faster admission on to drug substitution programmes in Greece. However this report was soon corrected by World Health Organization to clarify that this was not happening in masse but rather there were accounts of deliberate self-infection by a few individuals to obtain access to benefits of €700 per month and faster admission onto drug substitution programmes in Greece.

WHO Source: http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/communicable-diseases/hivaids/news/news/2013/11/correction-to-hiv-case-study-in-greece-featured-in-whoeurope-report-on-social-determinants-of-health

NPR Source: http://www.npr.org/2012/07/27/157352062/greeces-latest-crisis-rising-hiv-cases

Please review, and feel free to express any disagreements or contribute any additional information on this. However, please keep in mind to state what specific part you disagree with and what solution do you suggest, and also please provide references to valid sources and not blogs when contributing further to this section.

Thanks and I look forward to your responses. For the undisputed parts, we can update the Social Effects section. Ilirpedia (talk) 06:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Seems pretty well documented to me. Also, it's the expected outcome.  Social measure always worse during a recession, moreso if the recession is long and deep.  Don't really see why the social effects of the recession should not be included. LK (talk) 03:27, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * In light of your comment, can you explain to me how the WHO reference specifies that the HIV crisis is a result of the debt crisis? Please quote from the WHO source, where are the terms "debt crisis". After you do that, can you explain to me how old are the polls included in the sources, and then how relevant they may be now that the crisis has eased. Thanks.  Dr.   K.  04:31, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but I have failed to see how the WHO information about HIV relates to the debt crisis. The source does not support this claim. To link here an information to this article when not supported by the sources, constitutes WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH and is a violation of Wikipedia's core policies. Any use of information by the editors in an way that implies or states a conclusion not explicitly supported by the given source, will have that information removed from the article without any prior warnings, no matter how "pretty well documented" it seems to us. -- ❤ S ILENT R ESIDENT  ❤ 08:21, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone for their comments. Just to make clear to everyone, this is not an original research article, but rather published by an international organization, of which Greece is a full member of. I believe that SilentResident, shows on her page that she/he is a supporter of United Nations (UN). World Health Organization (WHO), is part of the UN, and Greece is a full member of these organizations.
 * For your reference I am also including this additional source from WHO where the author is a university professor in Greece and has worked with WHO on such studies. See WHO.int link below, after point 2.
 * Dr.K. mentioned that we have to show him 1"how old are the polls included" and then 2 "how relevant is this info after the crises has eased"-Let me just say in summary that we don't have to show you anything that common sense is able to show you or your basic reading skills should.


 * 1. But for the sake of time, see below article also from WHO, even in a separate article it states the same conclusion. In summary, the greek crises has caused government budgets to be slashed, cuts have happened to the health care system and medications. Here is an interesting point he makes: "prevalence of clinical depression and of suicide has increased over the last three years. Also, the prevalence of HIV infection is increasing, perhaps because injection drug use has grown and programmes supporting people who are dependent on such drugs have been slashed. Access to the health services has been reduced and pressure on the public services is greater. People can no longer afford private health care and are going to public hospitals. Hospital admissions have been increased by 28% to 2.2 million in 2013 from 1.6 million admissions in 2009. Many people with health problems, who lack the money, are not seeking health care at all."


 * The facts on the WHO both point in the same direction and the sources are very strong.


 * 2. "Is this still relevant after crises has eased" - Are ancient greeks still relevant after they are all dead and no longer exist? ...Then why do we have wikipedia pages on ancient greeks?


 * Additional WHO Source also pointing to the financial crises and HIV rates in Greece.
 * http://who.int/bulletin/volumes/92/1/14-030114/en/

I strongly think that both the prior and additional research I performed using solid source material (WHO), have addressed any possible concern that the editors have expresses. This information merits being included in the article page. However, I will wait a little more before contributing it.

P.S.Thanks, to Dr.K. comments, and SilentResident comments, I did some more research and found that in addition also Malaria rates have meaningfully increased and on top of this, an article points to the Greek Debt Crisis effect as turning Greece into a Third World Country. This might be an interesting subject that I might do more research on and further contribute on this in Wikipedia..... Dr.K and SilentResident, if you have any other more ideas for me to research, please feel free to share them with me, who knows what else I might be able to contribute for the greek Wikipedia pages.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-country-HIV-Malaria-TB-rates-soar-health-services-slashed-savage-cuts.html https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/malaria-and-hiv-spike-as-greece-cuts-healthcare-spending/275836/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2012/mar/15/greece-breadline-hiv-malaria

Ilirpedia (talk) 13:16, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

So - who held the largest amount of Hellenic debt?
The link "German Banks Top French on $23 Billion Greek Debt, BIS Says", where the information that "it was German banks who held the largest amount of Hellenic debt" is supposed to be taken from, doesn't work. If you take other sources, like the one from the Guardian that was used in another context already in the article, you will see that in 2011 they say that it was Greek banks (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/17/greece-debt-crisis-bank-exposed) - nearly 46 bn Euros for Greece vs. nearly 8 bn Euros for Germany. Of course, we can discuss, if the Guardian is a reliable source, but I think it is definitely more reliable than a link that doesn't work - and if we don't trust the Guardian, then we should not cite it that often in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlos9999 (talk • contribs) 13:43, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry - I just saw that I forgot to sign the comment Carlos9999 (talk) 15:43, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

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 * Added tag to http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/ameco/Include/Query.cfm?serie=UDGGS&trn=1&agg=0&unite=0&ref=0&nomserie=Stock-flow+adjustment+on+general+government+consolidated+gross+debt+%3A-+Excessive+deficit+procedure+%28based+on+ESA+2010%29&lstCntry=%27EU28%27%2C%27EU27%27%2C%27EU15%27%2C%27EA19%27%2C%27EA18%27%2C%27EA12%27%2C%27BEL%27%2C%27BGR%27%2C%27CZE%27%2C%27DNK%27%2C%27DEU%27%2C%27EST%27%2C%27IRL%27%2C%27GRC%27%2C%27ESP%27%2C%27FRA%27%2C%27HRV%27%2C%27ITA%27%2C%27CYP%27%2C%27LVA%27%2C%27LTU%27%2C%27LUX%27%2C%27HUN%27%2C%27MLT%27%2C%27NLD%27%2C%27AUT%27%2C%27POL%27%2C%27PRT%27%2C%27ROM%27%2C%27SVN%27%2C%27SVK%27%2C%27FIN%27%2C%27SWE%27%2C%27GBR%27
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150706010718/http://www.cesifo-group.de/de/ifoHome/facts/DICE/Public-Sector/Public-Finance/Public-Debt/fiscal-balances/fileBinary/fiscal-balances.xls to http://www.cesifo-group.de/de/ifoHome/facts/DICE/Public-Sector/Public-Finance/Public-Debt/fiscal-balances/fileBinary/fiscal-balances.xls

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 04:28, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Greek debt and EU average since 1977.png