Talk:Hagarenes

This page is really really confusing

The material in this article does not in any way represent how scholars treat this term. The term's identity and meaning are contested among historians of early Islam. The first two paragraphs of the article are indeed about the subject, but with some problematic information. The second paragraph is infused with genealogical speculation that has little basis in ancient texts. One would have to speculate that the writer had a theological agenda that is inimical to the mission of Wikipedia.

Much of what appears in the rest of the article (beginning with the third paragraph) demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of Hebrew by conflating the personal name Hagar (Sarah's handmaid in Genesis) with another term, ha-ger ("the alien" or "the stranger"). Although the three Hebrew letters are the same (HGR), they are not the same word. In the latter, the first letter H is the article, ("the" in English). No English translation of the Hebrew Bible would make this mistake. Thus the identity of Hagar and her descendants is confused with laws in the Torah relating to aliens. From the third paragraph on, the material should be deleted. 06:13, 28 March 2008 User:71.146.102.214

I can see what 71.146.102.214 is saying but I do think the problem here is too many authors each one only familiar with their own small piece of the puzzle. Karaylar Jewish (Qaraimlar) סבל הירושה is the only thing which gives a good overview here. According to Karaylar Jewish סבל הירושה, the guidance for HaToshavim התושבים and HaGarim הגרים was preached to the non Jews after ben Marym. In Arabia, a non Jew who followed its guidance was therefore called a مهاجر. Keturah was the name of Abraham's concubine. Her title was HaGar meaning the stranger. 71.146.102.214 is clearly unfamiliar with these traditions. So there is a connection between the religious observance of Hagarim and the people who later called themselves Hagarenes. Later these Hagarenes got confused and created Isalm. Only Karaite Judaism has the concept of Hagarim and Hatoshavim since Rabbinical Judaism prefers the term Chassidei Humot Ha Olam. Anyway I agree the entire article needs to be re-written.Kaz 18:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

'Hagarenes (Greek Ἀγαρηνοί), also mhaggre (with a pun on the word muhajir, from Hagar's expulsion), is a term that describes "the followers or descendants of Hagar". The name was used in Judeo-Christian literature and Byzantine chronicles for Hanif Arabs, then for Islamic forces known collectively as Saracens, and during the height of the Ottoman Empire, for Turks. The name, used interchangeably with Ishmaelites, came also to mean any Muslim. An example of its current usage is Ahryani (Aхряни), a name used for Bulgarian Muslims in colloquial Bulgarian -although this term has also been explained as paralleling the spread of Balkan Islam with anti-trinitarian Arianism.'

All beyond this point is simply confusing I seems to have been written by people who like a group speaking in code are the only people who know what they are on about for a causal reader it makes now sense. I look as tough it is written by a specific ideology as the link at the bottom shows. There are no headings or sections. It is in know way a Wikipedia article if it is not drastically altered it needs deletion, as it seems to be braking many Wikipedoa rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.118.100 (talk) 21:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You're too kind to the article! It's a piece of /insert suitable curse here/! I'm considering a deletion process against it, being someones private WP:OR, and not being viable. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 12:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

The article history
While the're may actually be a notion hagarenes, the current article seems to be some initial presumptuous erroneous trivialism, the article history indicates that this article have since deteriorated from stub class to blatant b-sh*t class. Note especially this nonsential rambling. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 12:54, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Jewish Encyclopedia speaks about "Hagarites" in the article on Hagar. No "hagarenes" found. I'll make some googling. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 13:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Wrong. HAGARENES, HAGARITES. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 13:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I decided that the article might be viable, so that I'll give it a chance by removing all trash. However the text added by the user IP 194.83.157.3 was hoaxes misrepresenting the sources blatantly, so I had to delete it. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 06:11, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Now tagged for how it is to be improved. Possibly, I'll also tag it for notability - the topic barely deserves an article. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 06:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)