Talk:Hank Pym/Archive 1

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Civil War History

"Henry Pym" is also the name of an actual historical figure in the English Civil War.

Sources:

(I had to add a lot of keyword exclusions before I saw those pages near the top of a Google search for "Henry Pym": "-marvel -wasp -avengers -giantman -comic")

Would this really merit a disambiguation page here, though?

Perhaps not a full disambig (yet), but a move to "Henry Pym (comics)" is probably wise, and certainly good style. Luis Dantas 04:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Disassembled

Need to update this for disassembled arc...

"The one who has made us most ashamed"

This phrase appears no less than eight times throughout this article, all but one of which are needless. I don't know whether the person who wrote it was having a laugh or trying to make some oblique point about spousal abuse, but either way it doesn't look suitable for an encyclopedia entry.

Blimey, someone changed that quickly.

Maybe someone's working through an issue. --Chris Griswold 02:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is full of one person's biased take on the character in certain places, and should be edited to a higher level of quality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.33.118.188 (talk • contribs)

TOTALLY!!!! YEAH! --Chris Griswold 06:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Aliases

Currently Ant-Man redirects here. I think it is time for a change. Let's make separate articles for Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath (comics) and Yellowjacket (comics) and have them redirect here as needed. Luis Dantas 14:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. --Jamdav86 16:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Atheism

Where has it ever been mentioned that Pym was an atheist? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.164.237.106 (talk) 18:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

lets avoid a picture war

the current picture of pym is that of his yellowjacket identity. i am pretty sure from what i have read during the civil war that he is back to useing his giant man identity. lets there thus find a recent image of pym in costume without haveing picture reverting war?

um do we know if that is pym in MA#5 or is that a guess?Phoenix741 23:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Maria Troyvana

someone can put a little note about Maria/MODAM ? ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MODOK ) ? 88.149.170.148 18:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Strength Level at giant size

I removed the description of Pym's 100-foot tall strength level. I think it is inappropriate (not to mention inaccurate) to say that he is capable of lifting 50 tons at this height. It is my understanding that this is a "Marvel Universe Handbook" type of description, which wikipedia tries to avoid. More importantly, it is silly to think that a human figure of this stature could only lift 50 tons. A man of that size would surely weigh thousands of tons all by himself. Hank would have to be capable of moving at least that much weight just to get around. It would be like saying a 6-foot tall man is only capable of lifting a gallon of milk and nothing more. I am not a particularly big fan of this character, so it's not as if I'm just trying to make him sound more powerful. I changed the strength level to "immeasurable superhuman strength," but it should probably just be changed to "great superhuman strength" or something like that.Sadaharuo 00:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Stang Lee

I removed this: This Ant Man may be named after Stan Lee with a g in the end of the Stan. Stang Lee doesn't have the ability to talk to ants, but he can shrink down. He appears to help the Fantastic Four against the Psi-lord (Franklin Richards). Two reasons: firstly, I can find no online evidence of Stang Lee appearing in any book, and secondly, if he does exist, he should probably be on the Alternates section of the main Ant-Man page.Daibhid C 21:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

About the new picture.

Does anyone else think it shows him in the worst light possible. I mean being kicked from the avengers is a big thing, but it is not his defining quality. Could we change it back to the other pic, or find one that makes him look more like a hero, which everyone(in the marvel U) sees him as.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 03:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

How about the Avengers cover?

Asgardian 03:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

You mean Image:AvengersIII59.jpg, yea I am cool with that.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 03:55, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Could whoever uploads it please crop the "Marvel.com" promotional bug first? It won't affect the character image itself.--Tenebrae 06:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I croped it out, but it still shows up on the character page, it is weird.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 15:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
As per Wikpedia policy, a "full frontal" shot of the character is required for the SHB. Unfortunately, Avengers #59 does not fulfil this requirement. It's fairly black and white. Where a full frontal exists, this is to be used.

Asgardian 11:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

This does go back to my orinignal problem. Of it not being well representative of Hank Pym.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 15:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The new picture, while being full frontal, certainly reinforces the whole "wifebeating failure" reputation that Pym has in certain elements of fandom, as well as with certain Marvel writers. Not representative of the character history or current status in the continuity. Would suggest either reverting back to the previous consensus picture or finding an alternative. Perhaps crop out his appearance as part of Stark's Army on the cover of the Civil War: The Initiative one-shot?

Image:Avengers_Initiavive_number_1.jpeg NYCTommy 19:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

ok i fixed the picture so it is just a link. Also I could try to crop it out, but it would not look good, if anyone else can crop it AND make it so it looks like he is the only one there, than I say do it. If not, I will fire up the old google search engine to look for one.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 15:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The image needs to be sourced to an exact issue.

Asgardian 20:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats it..... not, yea your right that image looks better, or good job finding something that does not make Pym look bad, AND is more full frontal?Phoenix741(Talk Page) 21:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Where is the current image from?

Asgardian (talk) 15:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I've culled the so-so Yellowjacket image with no source and placed TTA #35 in the SHB, as it features Pym as Ant-Man, his first identity. This is then followed up with the great Giant-Man cover and finally the debut of Yellowjacket. In this manner the reader actually gets a look at Pym's three main personas without any repetition.

Asgardian (talk) 08:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"So-so" is an opinion, which one is entitled to, but saying it doesn't make it so. While I might personally agree that Pym's original identity might be best in the SHB, we cannot set a precedent of unilateral changes to the SHB without consensus by [[User:Phoenix741 or other editors. I'm returning the Yellowjacket image (his longtime latest identity, so it's not arbitrary) and seeking a source for it.
I may agree with Asgardian that Ant-Man belongs there, but unilateral, non-consensus changes to SHBs are highly problematic in the long run.--Tenebrae (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there a rule somewhere where if the character changes costumes alot, the main image needs to be the one he is wearing his most recent costume?Phoenix741(Talk Page) 16:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see that at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/editorial_guidelines#Superhero box images, though it does say to use "the most universally recognisable appearance of a character" and "a clearly-defined primary costume".
It also says that "a promotional piece of artwork the copyright holders have released for promotional purposes" is one of the two main preferences (along with a noteworthy or much-used image, as some covers are).
Given this, it's hard to say. Given the roughly equal prominence of the two superhero characters, my two suggestions would be
  • 1) a dual image of Ant-Man and Yellowjacket, which can be Photoshopped easily enough, or
  • 2) a shot of Henry Pym, with his various superhero guises depicted within the body text.
Thoughts? --Tenebrae (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Good points by all. My two cents: the current picture (which is likely from an 80's era "Offical Handbook to the Marvel Universe") is the best of the Yellowjacket pictures that have been put forth to date and is certainly recognizable. As this is Pym's guise of choice in the current continuity, it makes the most sense to include this in the info box.
Having said that, given the rich history of the character and all the previous aliases, it would be good to try and agree on one shot of each to be used in the body of the article (eg one of Ant-Man, Giant Man, Goliath, Yellowjacket and plain old Doctor Pym circa his WCA days). 213.86.213.196 (talk) 16:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I think that is was a old rule that recently changed, my bad. Both of your suggestions sound good, but I like the second once better. It shows how he has changed costumes over the years. We just need a good image of Pym w/o a costume, and a good pic of all of his costumes.Which is going to be hard. Phoenix741(Talk Page) 16:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Great to see such collaboration and interest on this article. I've done some googling and found a few potential covers we can use. for Ant Man and Giant Man, we should stick with the tales to Astonish. I also like the Yellowjacket debut cover from Avengers. To fill in the gaps, how about the following:
Both are covers, so there should be no copyright issue.
Another great cover to add in the section on recent events would be the following, which shows Pym as yellowjacket front and center and is tied to his cerrent series. http://www.pulllist.com/comic/marvel_comics/avengers_initiative/1_(of_6)/cover-full.jpg
Thoughts?NYCTommy (talk) 17:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


I like all 3 of them. Great Work.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 17:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The Pym civilian picture is good — nicely anguished, as he often is — but more importantly I can crop it and place it against a black background with Photoshop.
The Goliath shot is good since it shows scale, and would work in the body copy, I think. The Initiative shot may be too cluttered, especially when there are very clear images available. And in any case, we already have Yellowjacket's historically significant debut issue. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I am going to add the WCA and the Goliath pics in now.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 22:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
OK...in addition to adding for correct facts for the FCB, I've put the nice shot of Pym in the SHB, as in thinking about it the article is about Henry Pym. I culled the Goliath shot as the top of the article was getting way too cluttered and he can be seen and is now mentioned in the #59 shot. The bottom of the article could do with a picture - does Phoenix possibly have a nice shot of Ultimate Pym in action?

Asgardian (talk) 20:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the Pym image should be in the SHB, when blown up that big, it gets blury. I will look for a image of ultimate Pym, not quite sure where the old one went to though. I liked that one.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 20:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Found one, what do you all think of this[1]

Phoenix741(Talk Page) 20:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That is perfect! (so long as it can be sourced). I'll see if I can find a better shot of Pymin civilian guise. I really think the SHB image needs to be him in this mode or the Ant-Man over. Still one too many images at the top of the article.

Asgardian (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I know where that image is from, I have the issue somewhere so I will find that out(unless I get blocked due to other stuff), I still think Yellowjacket should be in the SHB because that is his costumed identity, but hey agree to disagree and I will go with the majority. Also, maybe we could space out the images a bit who knows, again I will go with majority.Phoenix741(Talk Page) 21:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed on keeping yellowkjacket in. This is both his current guise in the mainstream MU and also his most recognizable costume (both in terms of number of issues and number of years he has been in the Yellowjacket identity). I also disagree on culling the Goliath shot. It is historically significant to the character who has had 5 major identities over the course of 45 year (I count "Doctor Pym: The Scientific Adventurer" as a separate and distinct superhero i.d. from plain old Hank Pym.)NYCTommy (talk) 17:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I've had to move the images to accommodate the headings, which were slightly out of whack. Had to cull the Goliath shot (targeted for deletion?) as there just isn't the room. The Ultimates shot, however, would be really nice.

Asgardian (talk) 22:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair-Use issues. I left the link to the Ultimate Image if someone wants to add it, I think it is form Ultimate #2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phoenix741 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Added the Ultimate shot and sourced it. Culled the Pym shot as it is pretty bad and a small part of a cover.

Asgardian 03:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Clean-Up

In line with the clean-up, I'm culling the Ultimates image as it really doesn't offer much and the emphasis should be on the mainstream version. There are far better Avengers covers that feature he and Jan in action. Nod to Tenebrae for the help on the PH. FCB yet to be revamped with sources as now looking far less like a fan site and an actual Wiki entry.

Asgardian 06:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Great job on the clean up! Article flows much better and much of the trivia and minor mentions that build up over time are better left out. I've clarigfied a few points on recent activities/publication history that I hope you agree with. NYCTommy 19:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Top Ten most intelligent fictional characters

According to BusinessWeek, Henry Pym is listed as one of the top ten most intelligent fictional characters in American comics. Smartest Superheroes Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Successors

There is still a link within the article to "Successors", but no section with that title. However, I didn't edit, as I was unsure whether the correct move was to recreate this section, or delete the reference. My instinct would be to recreate the section. --66.11.205.149 (talk) 19:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Not sure when this was deleted, but it is relevant to the character given the prominence of "Pym particles" in launching almost a dozen other characters, many of whom have taken on elements of Hank's previous identities and costumes.NYCTommy (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Planned Film

Can we please discuss the continued deletion of sourced information, complete with link to interview with the film's director, of the upcoming Ant Man film? One user appears obsessed with "culling" this as "speculation". In fact, it has been reported in numerous mainstream new sources and references have only increased with the information coming out about the other planned Avengers films. The current text makes it clear that there is no planned release date, but everything else is factual and this has been added to the article by more than one user, which I would argue is consensus. If Asgardian has an issue with these, he should discuss here before reverting the work of others again.NYCTommy (talk) 23:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

OK...for starters, the title of the section you created above says it all: "Planned". This means future tense, and subject to change. Now, take a look at what you entered in the article:
There is also a planned Ant Man live-action film, to be directed by Edgar Wright, which is rumored to include both Pym and Scott Lang in the title role. The script is written and Wright was working on the second draft as of February 2008. There is no current casting information, although a 2010 release date has tentatively been attached to the film. It has also been reported that Ant-Man will feature on the roster of heroes in the live action Avengers live-action film, planned for a 2011 release, although there is currently no information as to whether or not it will be the Pym version of the character.
Everything in bold is speculation and dubious. As for the remainder, if someone is working on a script, so what? That doesn't mean it will translate into a film or anything else. Go take a look at the History on the Thor page. Quite a bit of speculation was culled because it simply wasn't factual, and sure enough the details changed.
Passion for comic book characters is a fine thing, but please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and deals with facts. Unlike Variety, it does not "crystal ball" and speculate.
Asgardian (talk) 00:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote:
"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and deals with facts. "
And the text here is sourced to USA Today. which stands up to WP:RS scrutiny. There is no reason why some mention of the film, which is included on numerous other pages, should not be made. As facts and circumstances change, and are sourced to WP:RS items, the Wikipedia article should evolve as well.
Passion for "culling" articles as you see fit, with no discussion is equally distracting to the encyclopedia, which is a collaborative effort. Why not collaborate on this and edit the text that I and multiple others have added and you continue to unilaterally remove?
I am going to take your comments on board and edit what you have "culled". Would appreciate the same respect for me as an editor. Happy to put this up for a vote here on the talk page if that is what this will take.NYCTommy (talk) 14:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm...saying "work with us" is a bit rich given that it was Tenebrae and I that basically rewrote the entire article and got it up to an acceptable level. Please remember who did the hard yards on the PH and FCB before you judge.

As for Film, I've reworked it to read what can be claimed. Just the facts, without tidbits and irrelevant updates, such as there's now a 2nd, 3rd, ect script and someone scratched their nose. The articles state the project has been greenlit, and work is underway. That's enough until there's firm information re: castings etc. By the by, the director will also probably change.

Regards

Asgardian (talk) 10:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

RE: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and deals with facts." Wikipedia does not deal with indiscriminate facts; please see WP:NOT.
Wikipedia does not publish rumors, or newsy statements of non-fact ("It is not yet known...." Well, wait until something is known.)
Wikipedia doesn't go by votes, but by reaching consensus.
Finally, please see the Wikipedia deadline regarding when we have to make a final decision on any of this.--Tenebrae (talk) 20:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Asgardian's removal of overdone lead

While the previous editor is correct in that leads s.b. more than a single paragraph (as indeed it is at Batman, for example), the new, longer lead was more filled with minutiae than written as an overview, and as written in conversational and not encyclopedic tone, among other problems. I support Asgardian's reversion. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, my lead was pretty hastily done, and I apologize. I've done much better and less trivial leads before, so my apologies on the fanboy style lead I did! Asgardian preferred that the article's lead stays at a few sentences, but if anyone wants me (or anyone else) to do a new, less erm... crummy lead, then I guess we can try and see if it looks good? I want to see this article pass for GA candidancy, and other than needing more than just three reliable non-primary sources (Which will be hard to find in the first place. Stinks that it's hard...), most reviewers for GA candidancy require a good few paragraph lead. I'm sure that I, or anyone else, can do a better and less wordy lead than the one I did last night. That is, unless anyone objects. Hopefully no one sees any sort of snark or negative remarks in this message! Have a nice day! :) CarpetCrawler (talk) 21:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Not at all — quite alright; we're all colleagues here. Why not read the leads at Batman and Spider-Man and give it another go; other editors can touch things up later. Remember: Only use just the words you need. Always ask yourself if a word is absolutely needed or if it can go. Write the bare minimum — and you'll find that you can get a lot of facts into a very right space. Hope this helps, and may I say what a pleasure it is to work with someone so positive! --Tenebrae (talk) 22:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll get to work on it! :) Have a nice day! CarpetCrawler (talk) 18:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
This is what I've got so far. I don't have anything on his Ultimates form, as well as his other forms, but am working on that as we speak. Feedback is welcome! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CarpetCrawler/Sandbox CarpetCrawler (talk) 22:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I tried getting feedback on this and no luck... so I decided to be bold and added the lead myself. If anyone has any objections, they may get rid of it if they wish... thank you and have a nice day! :) CarpetCrawler (talk) 05:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
It is a good effort, but not appropriate that early in the article, and it repeats FCB material. Less tends to be more with the introduction. Sorry.

Asgardian (talk) 23:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I asked and got no responses (As I stated in the message before yours,) so I decided to just go bold, and said that if anyone wanted to get rid of it, they could. However, I'm pretty sure the lead is supposed to be a summary, so it's going to repeat material. Thanks! CarpetCrawler (talk) 00:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Criti Noll is minor Skrull character that has been killed off. This article contains duplicate copy and paste material from the Hank Pym itself, and i see no reason why they need to be separated as Wikipedia is not a guidebook to every character in the Marvel Universe.. Also the time in which Criti Noll took over as Hank Pym is in debate as the Mighty Avengers #15 issue which saw Pym get replaced did not specifically state the name of the Skrull who replaced him. It was not until Avengers: The Initiative #14 that the name Criti Noll was given and in the most recent issue of Mighty Avengers it was stated that Criti Noll was not the first Skrull to replace Pym. --- Paulley (talk) 15:46, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

After reviewing both articles, I do believe it would be appropriate to redirect Criti Noll to Hank Pym#Secret Invasion. Turlo Lomon (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with both Paulley and Turlo Lomon, as we can even just condense any sort of important info from the Criti Noll article, and put it in the Secret Invasion section of this article, and set up a re-direct. CarpetCrawler (talk) 22:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Just mention the character in the article and leave it that. All the actions are recorded there. The only thing I would say is that if multiple Skrulls have impersonated Pym, then the sourcing needs to be there to back up any claims. A whole article dedicated to a bit player is unnecessary.

Asgardian (talk) 06:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Decided to be bold and redirected it to the secret invasion section.. it didnt contain any info that is not already mentioned in that section. --- Paulley (talk) 18:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. If he should turn out to not really be dead, and/or come back and do something really interesting or whatever, we can always unmerge somewhere down the line. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 22:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Yea sure, with marvel there is always the chance. --- Paulley (talk) 09:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
He is shown alive in Secret Invasion #6, where the queen addresses Pym as "Noll". 67.173.11.90 (talk) 05:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Well thats no confirmation, maybe its his brother Triti Noll, maybe she got the name wrong, or maybe just maybe its him.. but we dont know for sure so it would only be speculation.. we will just have to wait and see if more evidence comes to light. -- Paulley (talk) 16:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Pym in England

Pym was replaced by a skrull at this point, as it was shown within the the MA issue.. there is no reason to take it out of the SI section. The only question being raised is whether or not that skrull was Criti Noll.. as there is no evidence to prove either way when cant add that it was that Skrull. However, he was replaced by a Skrull at this time making it and everything after that point in continuity part of the Secret Invasion until proved otherwise. Crit Noll however, has been shown and stated to be the Skrull impersonator during his time in Camp Hammond. --- Paulley (talk) 09:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Fine, but part of the narrative are poorly written and not really necessary. "Messing with his thoughts" and "put down" are colloquial and not appropriate for a Wikipedia entry. Also keep it to the gist and avoid a blow by blow a narrative.

Asgardian (talk) 02:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, yet some of your edit are just unappropriated, breaking ref links and adding speculation and other untruths.. however, much of your edits were good and hopefully the compromise i have worked on should hopefully settle the article and keep us both happy.
see here

--Paulley (talk) 22:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Lead

Well we are in the D of BRD and this time it is the lead, recently removed [2]. Personally I think it was a good effort and by its very nature it "repeats info from FCB" because the lead should be "a concise overview" of the topic. The article is a long one and probably deserves 3 or 4 paragraphs to provide the necessary information. So what was added was better than not having it and while it may need some work to hammer into shape I think it should be restored. Opinions? (Emperor (talk) 03:45, 20 September 2008 (UTC))

Unfortunately it is the repetitive component that is problematic, as it is all there in the FCB, where such information is currently placed.

Asgardian (talk) 03:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

But Asgardian, Emperor is saying that the lead is SUPPOSED to do that... it's basically a summary of the other sections of the article. And the FCB is the longest section in the article, so it's going to have the most of the lead, as compared to the section on the video games Hank has appeared in. CarpetCrawler (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Indeed - that isn't a problem it is the point. If it needs editing to refocus it or recast it so it doesn't seem quite so repetitive then that is the nature of wikis but removing it completely for doing what it is supposed to do (provide a summary of the article) makes it seems that your problem may be with the guidelines and so it might be something you'd want to raise over there as what was added seems reasonable to me based on the currently available guidelines. (Emperor (talk) 04:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC))
For the record, if anyone wants to fix the lead I wrote, so that it could be added to the article, they may go ahead and do any edits to it that they want. They can just leave a message on my talkpage and I'll send it to them (My sandbox currently has a different article that I'm working on in there, instead.) CarpetCrawler (talk) 04:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I've restored the lead as the article needs it and that is a good start. It may need a trim or a tweak or two (because the aim should always be to try give as concise a summary as possible) but it is better to have it than not. (Emperor (talk) 01:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC))
I disagree. Why does the article need it? A great deal of work went into creating an accurate PH and FCB, which provide all the information required. There is a tight lead; an excellent summary by Tenebrae of the publication history, and I wrote something like 98% of the FCB. The extraneous material in the lead is simply a summary of what follows, which is unnecessary. It is also - no offence - written with a POV tone and is too casual. There is also the question of aesthetics as it is certainly not easy on the eye.

Asgardian (talk) 04:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Asgardian, I don't think you realize. Wikipedia says that the article should have more than a paragraph's worth of a lead, so yes, a summary IS necessary. And I kept asking if anyone would comment on what I wrote, or even help point me in the right direction, but I fell on deaf ears. It seems that you feel that because you wrote most of the FCB, you feel that the article is yours. That's what it looks like to me, from what you've written. Please bear in mind that you do not own any of the articles on Wikipedia, and just because you're the most frequent editor of an article does not mean that you own the article, as well. Also, don't worry, I don't take offence to what you said about the lead. I admit that I'm not a good lead writer, and I worked pretty hard on trying to make it correct. I'm sure I made errors, but would love help in working on the lead. Thank you, and have a nice day! (Also, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, Asgardian, because I'm not, and that's most certainly not what I'm trying to do!) CarpetCrawler (talk) 04:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I guess this one's not getting a bigger lead. 67.173.11.90 (talk) 04:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I know you can't gauge my tone as I write this, but I don't think I own the article. Or any article for that matter. It is true, however, that I have edited a great many and yes, brought more than a few from terrible to encyclopedia standard. This is simply a hobby of mine (truth be known, I get a lot of free time at work and do it for mental stimulation) and I want these articles to be the best they can be. Now, I'm not saying your effort "sucked", but merely that such an issue requires greater discussion and a quorum. Heck, there was quite an extensive debate on just what the lead sentence should say! And by the by, Tenebrae and I did offer up some comment on the previous question. It may well be that there is indeed another component of the comuic article waiting to be discovered (a 3 - 4 sentence paragraph called Overview? Would have to be really well written not to just be repetition), but I do know that the current effort is not it. Again, more discussion.

Asgardian (talk) 07:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

From what I've been hearding lately, the lead on a well-written article (which this is; it's been given a B-class rating) should indeed be an overview. It shouldn't be simply mindless repetition, but it should definitely give you a feeling of what to expect in the rest of the writing. 67.173.11.90 (talk) 13:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
As has been said - WP:LEAD says that an article of this length needs more than a few sentences. If you have a problem with the entire concept then you need to take it up over there. You can't keep removing the current lead because you don't like the idea. If there are problems with the current lead then feel free to edit them down. Adding a lead doesn't not require a quorum - it is part of the guidelines that say it should be there. Removing something that has to be there because you believe you know better than the editing guideline raises all sorts of issues as it is bordering on vandalism. I agreed to mentor you and point out where you might be misinterpreting/overlooking guidelines when you have content disputes - this is one of the those cases (and the reason I got involved). If you aren't even prepared to compromise then that is troubling as I agreed to help out as you'd just been blocked for similar content disputes and this doesn't bode well as one of the first such incidents following your block being lifted. (Emperor (talk) 15:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC))
For the record, I invite anyone to go and copyedit my lead, if they feel that it needs some trimming, different sentences, or such! I just don't agree with the idea of removing it, with my reasons stated above. Have a nice day! CarpetCrawler (talk) 00:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Emperor seems to have made the wrong call and blindly reverted. A rewrite with a discussion of said rewrite here was the correct way to do this. Also some disappointing assumptions about my conduct. I'll also see if I can pull in some more objective editors who can focus on the problem rather than the person. By the by, they are guidelines only. Remember that.

Asgardian (talk) 03:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:LEAD may be a guideline and I'm sure there are exceptions but 1 b) of the Comics Project quality assessment is specific about what is required to move from a B to GA: "it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation." So while there may be exceptions (presumably for certain specific types of article, not a general one about a comic character) in almost all cases if you want to take an article on to higher levels of quality it has to have a lead and, personally, I think we should aim to take all articles to the highest quality (even if practical reasons make this unlikely in all cases, although I don't see why this can't go all the way) and to move this article on to GA and beyond it needs a lead, more references and probably quick polish here and there. If people don't like the lead as it is then they should edit it. Removing it is only moving us backwards. (Emperor (talk) 15:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC))

Also some disappointing assumptions about my conduct. To my understanding, he has a point. I've seen you trimming articles without trying to talk it out first. Believe it or not, removals aren't always necessary to follow wikipedia standards. Antiyonder (talk) 03:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

True, but the lead in the current form doesn't work.

Asgardian (talk) 03:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Then try finding a way to make it work for both sides and not just for yourself. Deleting something isn't always the best way to improve an article. The fact that you don't even attempt discussing before deleting makes it seem like you're doing it more for yourself. Antiyonder (talk) 05:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for anyone editing my lead, and making it smaller. Just not the one paragraph lead that was originally there. If anyone can or wants to trim my lead down, they may do so, I'm all for them doing it! I'm sure we can find middle ground for everyone involved. CarpetCrawler (talk) 03:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Quite - there has to be a lead and removing it outright does look bad (I'm not making assumptions about you I'm telling you how it looks and considering you've just come back from being blocked for very similar disputes you should be avoiding such appearances). As has been said - if you don't like it in the form it is then edit it - this is a wiki after all. (Emperor (talk) 14:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC))
I would like to see Asgardian's rewrite of the lead - I think that would be the best first step towards a compromise on this one. If he can do it in a way that would summarize the article without being unnecessarily repetitive, I think that would satisfy all. :) BOZ (talk) 15:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
That's a good compromise. My problem was that there was simply too much information for me to trim down the load into simple standards... but I'll also do a trimmed down and toned down version of the lead that I wrote, and see if anyone likes that one as well! Then we can decide! Have a nice day everyone! CarpetCrawler (talk) 15:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Ooh, let's have a lead-off! Best lead wins the prize.  ;) BOZ (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. My first tip would be to try and reduce the number of paragraphs, following WP:LEAD and aim for more out-of-universe style/material, Superman is a good example of what we should be aiming for. So perhaps origins, character development, principal characters he is connected with and then other media. (Emperor (talk) 15:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC))

Lead (Emperor)

OK as I had it in mind I thought I'd do a quick run through it (good practice as I need to get to grips with writing better leads as we push more articles on beyond B). It is pretty quick and dirty and I'm not 100% happy with it but it touches on the key elements to his story and when/where he used various names as well as touches on his broader influence across the Marvel Universe.

Dr. Henry "Hank" Pym is a fictional character that appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appears in Tales to Astonish #27 (Jan. 1962) and was created by editor and plotter Stan Lee, scripter Larry Lieber and penciler Jack Kirby.



Pym is shown discovering the size-changing Pym particles which, when combined with various inventions, provide him with the abilities he needs to adopt a superhero persona. Pym's character first began as a one-shot story in the Tales to Astonish series, titled "The Man in the Ant Hill" when he accidentally shrank himself down to ant-size. He would return in his own ongoing series adopting the name Ant-Man, who would later be teamed with love-interest Janet van Dyne, The Wasp. Pym would go on to join The Avengers as Giant-Man but he and Janet eventually retired, with Pym returning, as Goliath, to save the Wasp from The Collector.

The character would then become darker after an accident drove him mad. He adopted the alias Yellowjacket and retained it as he recovered and relapsed over the years, before again retiring. He would return as an advisor to the West Coast Avengers, eventually shedding the costumes and alter egos. In the Secret Invasion storyline it was revealed that Pym was a Skrull impostor and the actual character's whereabouts are currently unknown.

As well as having an important role in the Avengers his scientific work has been shown to be influential in the wider Marvel Universe. The Pym particles have been the source of powers for a number of superheroes and villains who often adopt one of Pym's aliases, including Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath and Yellowjacket. Equally his scientific abilities have led to numerous inventions, most notably Ultron, a character who would eventually go on to create others like the Vision, as well as the Phalanx who would be the main threat in Annihilation: Conquest.

The character of Henry Pym has also played a role in other alternate future's of the Marvel Universe. He has also appeared in a range of media including a video game, action figures, television, and animated films. A live-action film about his character, Ant-Man, is currently in the works, to be directed by Edgar Wright.

I'd not advocate going with this but offer it more as an extension of what I was getting at above and it may give others ideas on which direction they'd want to take things. I've started a subsection to try to keep things straight and less confusion. (Emperor (talk) 16:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC))

I like your lead a lot, it's well done, but I don't like the sentence about Giant-Man changing into Goliath. It's a bit choppy, other than that, it's very well done!

Lead (CarpetCrawler)

Dr. Henry "Hank" Pym is a fictional character that appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appears in Tales to Astonish #27 (Jan. 1962) and was created by editor and plotter Stan Lee, scripter Larry Lieber and penciler Jack Kirby.



Pym's character first began as a one-shot story in the Tales to Astonish series, titled "The Man in the Ant Hill", in which he successfully shrinks himself to the size of an ant. The character of Pym was later brought back to the series, this time as a regular feature, and given the name Ant-Man, a superhero whom can shrink down to the size of an ant. Janet van Dyne, whom would be better known as The Wasp, became his sidekick after a few adventures. The two would gradually fall in love later on in the series. Pym then joined The Avengers.

Pym has changed into more than one costumed persona. He later decided to take on the identity of Giant-Man, preferring strength over being shrunken. After rescuing Janet from the villain The Collector, he decided to become Goliath, in which his size grew to gigantic proportions. After an accident involving Pym inhaling gasses, he became schizophrenic. This led to him taking on the role of Yellowjacket, kidnapping Jan, and getting married to her in the process.

After he is finally brought back to his senses, the two decide to stay married, and Pym retains the role of Yellowjacket. However, Pym and Janet would later divorce, after he strikes her during a mental breakdown. After being framed by his old foe Egghead, Pym is sent to prison, but later freed after he is proven innocent. This leads to his retirement from crime-fighting.

Pym's retirement didn't last long, as he would later return as an adviser to the West Coast team of Avengers, in a role similar to Edwin Jarvis' role on the East coast team. Later on, he joined the team as a scientist. This also led to him regaining the friendship of Janet, and a rekindled romance, that has been going on and off. In the Secret Invasion storyline it was revealed that Pym was a Skrull impostor (and has been since the aftermath of Avengers Disassembled,) and the actual character's whereabouts are currently unknown.

The character of Henry Pym has also played a role in other alternate future's of the Marvel Universe. He has been immortalized in a video game, action figures, television, and animated films. A live-action film about his character, Ant-Man, is currently in the works, to be directed by Edgar Wright.

Combo lead (first draft)

This is a new lead I came up with, after trimming down the plot-type stuff from my lead. I also combined elements of Emperor's lead. Please tell me what you think, everyone!

Dr. Henry "Hank" Pym is a fictional character that appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appears in Tales to Astonish #27 (Jan. 1962) and was created by editor and plotter Stan Lee, scripter Larry Lieber and penciler Jack Kirby.



Pym's character first began as a one-shot story in the Tales to Astonish series, titled "The Man in the Ant Hill", in which he successfully shrinks himself to the size of an ant. The character of Pym was later brought back to the series, this time as a regular feature, and given the name Ant-Man, a superhero whom can shrink down to the size of an ant. Janet van Dyne, whom would be better known as The Wasp, became his sidekick after a few adventures. The two would gradually fall in love later on in the series. Pym then joined The Avengers.

Pym has changed into more than one costumed persona. He later decided to take on the identity of Giant-Man, preferring strength over being shrunken. After rescuing Janet from the villain The Collector, he decided to become Goliath, in which his size grew to gigantic proportions. After an accident involving Pym inhaling gasses, he became schizophrenic. This led to him taking on the role of Yellowjacket, kidnapping Jan, and getting married to her in the process.

After he is finally brought back to his senses, the two decide to stay married, and Pym retains the role of Yellowjacket. After being framed by his old foe Egghead, Pym is sent to prison, but later freed after he is proven innocent. This leads to his retirement from crime-fighting. Pym's retirement didn't last long, as he would later return as an adviser (and even later as a team member,) to the West Coast Avengers. In the Secret Invasion storyline it was revealed that Pym was a Skrull impostor (and has been since the aftermath of Avengers Disassembled,) and the actual character's whereabouts are currently unknown.

As well as having an important role in the Avengers his scientific work has been shown to be influential in the wider Marvel Universe. The Pym particles have been the source of powers for a number of superheroes and villains who often adopt one of Pym's aliases, including Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath and Yellowjacket. Equally his scientific abilities have led to numerous inventions, most notably Ultron, a character who would eventually go on to create others like the Vision, as well as the Phalanx who would be the main threat in Annihilation: Conquest.

The character of Henry Pym has also played a role in other alternate future's of the Marvel Universe. He has also appeared in a range of media including a video game, action figures, television, and animated films. A live-action film about his character, Ant-Man, is currently in the works, to be directed by Edgar Wright.

Combo lead (second draft)

OK try this based on my comments below:

Dr. Henry "Hank" Pym is a fictional character that appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appears in "The Man in the Ant Hill", a story in Tales to Astonish #27 (Jan. 1962), and was created by editor and plotter Stan Lee, scripter Larry Lieber and penciler Jack Kirby.



In his first appearance he is shown devising his size-reduction techniques. The character was later brought back to the series, this time as a regular feature, and given the name Ant-Man, a superhero who can shrink down to the size of an ant. Janet van Dyne, better known as The Wasp, became his sidekick after a few adventures and the two would gradually fall in love later on in the series. Pym then joined The Avengers and, while with the group, he adopted the next of his numerous costumed alias, Giant-Man, emphasising strength over subtlety. After rescuing Janet from the villain The Collector, his size grew to gigantic proportions and he assumed the name Goliath. After an accident involving Pym inhaling gasses and becoming schizophrenic, his character took on a darker aspect: adopting the role of Yellowjacket, kidnapping Jan, and marrying her.

After he is finally brought back to his senses, the two remain married, and Pym stays as Yellowjacket. After being framed by his old foe Egghead, Pym is sent to prison, but later freed after he is proven innocent, although this leads to his retirement from crime-fighting. Pym's retirement didn't last long, as he would later return as an adviser (and even later team member), to the West Coast Avengers. In the Secret Invasion storyline it was revealed that Pym was a Skrull impostor (and has been since the aftermath of Avengers Disassembled,) and the actual character's whereabouts are currently unknown.

As well as having an important role in the Avengers, his scientific work has been shown to be influential in the wider Marvel Universe. The Pym particles have been the source of powers for a number of superheroes and villains who often adopt one of Pym's aliases, including Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath and Yellowjacket. Equally his scientific abilities have led to numerous inventions, most notably Ultron, a character who would eventually go on to create others like the Vision, as well as the Phalanx who would be the main threat in Annihilation: Conquest.

The character of Henry Pym has also played a role in other alternate future's of the Marvel Universe. He has also appeared in a range of media including a video game, action figures, television, and animated films. A live-action film about his character, Ant-Man, is currently in the works, to be directed by Edgar Wright.

Obviously it still needs work but I am happier with this version. (Emperor (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC))

Lead discussion

Personally, I feel that a combination of my lead and Emperor's lead would be very good, as I like some of his stuff, and feel that some of his info and some of my info would look nice combined together, and trimmed down to fit everyone's liking. What does everyone think? CarpetCrawler (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Coming along nicely - personally I quite liked the way my fifth paragraph came together as it helps sum up his wider importance. I think the 4 "plotty" paragraphs could be condensed down (and possible brought together into 2-3 paragraphs) but good call on Egghead and Avengers Disassembled as being the starting point for the Skrull impostor (as having that in mind will be helpful for people reading through the FCB - as will the other key points in the history of the characters development, of course). (Emperor (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC))
Yeah, later today I'll get to work on the plot paragraphs... trust me, they were worse before! I'll try to trim the "plotty" paragraphs later... and I'll combine some of your stuff into my stuff, and we can see if a combo of our leads would work well! Thoughts? Check back later, everyone! CarpetCrawler (talk) 18:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
OK that is shaping up OK. I'd change both "whom"s in paragraph two (they aren't working for me) and rather than them decided to stay married (they are characters so don't get s say in the matter!!) perhaps switch that to "remain married." Also try this on for size for paragraph 2:

Pym has appeared under a number of costumed aliases. While with the Avengers, he became Giant-Man, emphasising strength over subtlety. After rescuing Janet from the villain The Collector, his size grew to gigantic proportions and he assumed the name Goliath. After an accident involving Pym inhaling gasses, his character took on a darker aspect: adopting the role of Yellowjacket, kidnapping Jan, and getting married to her in the process.

It crunches the paragraph down some more. I'd also consider letting the opening paragraph cover the name of the story and the magazine - trimming down the second paragraph and consider merging it with the third one. Keep cutting and try and avoid the more obvious in-universe traps. (Emperor (talk) 21:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC))
I very much like that second lead... I like it a lot! The only thing that I think needs work now, is this part:

Equally his scientific abilities have led to numerous inventions, most notably Ultron, a character who would eventually go on to create others like the Vision, as well as the Phalanx who would be the main threat in Annihilation: Conquest.

I am not a reader of recent comic books, and that sentence sounds confusing. Who created the Phalanx? Ultron or Hank? Other than that, I think the lead is fine, and very well done! CarpetCrawler (talk) 21:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Pym made Ultron who, in turn, went on to create the Vision, who would become a member of the Avengers, and the Phalanx, who would become the main threat in Annihilation: Conquest.
His influence sends out ripples that end up in all sorts of corners of the Marvel universe from the Thunderbolts to some of the big epic "cosmic" events, which is interesting in itself for a character who started out the size of an ant. (Emperor (talk) 22:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC))
For the record the version when we started was 7 paragraphs long and clocked in at 511 words and the second draft is 5 paragraphs and 443 words which is a saving of around 13% (which isn't bad) and it seems a lot tighter in the general plot area. Still room for improvement, of course, but it feels like it is moving in the right direction. (Emperor (talk) 22:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC))
I agree, and also think that fantastic improvements have been made, so far. I hope other people agree! It's nice to see that we were able to trim the lead down. So, what else needs to be worked on in the lead, anyone? CarpetCrawler (talk) 23:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
We might as well wait and see what people think - someone might want to have a go at writing their own or take one of the above and give it their own spin. We'll see how things go. (Emperor (talk) 23:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC))

Too wordy in proportion to article length

I tweaked a few minor things, but didn't feel I've been involved enough in this to rewrite the lead more broadly. The biggest issue is that this has grown way too wordy for an introduction. It includes too much detail which belongs instead under fictional character biography or publication history. Also, the lead should not have nearly so much in-universe language. Doczilla STOMP! 19:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

As you can see above your message, we are currently working on fixing the lead and making it less wordy. Thanks and have a nice day! CarpetCrawler (talk) 21:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Doc. I hope everyone realises that it may be impossible to create a section that doesn't cover the PH and FCN material. The versions I've seen thus far also smack of POV and are, as Doc stated, too in-universe for the average layman.

Asgardian (talk) 04:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to say it again - the lead is a summary of the article so it will by definition touch on points raised later in more detail in the PH, FCB (as well as powers and abilities and in other media). (Emperor (talk) 11:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
I've also checked out the Superman introduction and it isn't perfect either. Repetition and POV. It is going to have to be really, really good to pass muster and I just can't see anything (and I've done some notes) that won't be repetitive.

Asgardian (talk) 04:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Superman is featured article, I am not saying it is perfect but it certainly has passed muster. (Emperor (talk) 11:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
Yeah, that's what I was going to point out. It is a featured article, and I doubt it would even be one if it had the one paragraph lead that the Henry Pym article has had at points. If you feel that the current lead is bad, then why not also contribute a lead, just like Emperor and I have done? We even combined our leads, and created a lead that is much better than the current one. After more edits, we might perfect a good enough lead to fit the article. However, right now a one paragraph lead would not fit this article. I agree with Antiyonder's comments before me, in that just deleting the thing certainly won't add to the discussion, or to the consensus. Sometimes you don't even talk about the situation on here, and before the last few days that was the exact problem I had, which was the reason I went bold. I do like that we are adding more voices to this discussion, though. Great moves by all! CarpetCrawler (talk) 16:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if one paragraph is necessarily the way to go in all articles, but the article's current lead could use a trim, so long as it does not omit the most salient aspects of the article. Nightscream (talk) 22:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll tackle this tomorrow, but something folks are going to have to see sooner rather than lateris that it can't stay that size. Too unwieldy. But,I will try.

Asgardian (talk) 10:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No offense to Asgardian, but have you read the above discussion at all? Both Emperor and I have been working on leads and trimming them down so that they won't be as long and wordy. We have already "seen" that it won't fit, so instead of being snobby about it, how about we all contribute positively to the discussion? I am looking forward to your version of the lead, just set it up the way Emperor and I both set up our rough draft leads (Below each other's lead)! CarpetCrawler (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I've read the discussion, and no, I'm not being snobby about it. I've been thinking about it as this one is a tough nut to crack.

Asgardian (talk) 21:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll put this here so people can read it more easily:


Overview

Pym debuted in the 16-page comic book story called "The Man in the Ant Hill" in the first volume of Tales to Astonish. A simple scientist who successfully shrank himself to the size of an ant, Pym could not grow back to normal until an ant aided him. The story received a positive response from readers (insert source) and Pym returned to the series in a regular feature, and as the costumed "Ant-Man" fights crime as a superhero who can shrink down to the size of an ant. Pym is later given a crime-fighting partner, Janet van Dyne, who becomes the heroine the Wasp and eventually falls in love with Pym.

As Ant-Man, Pym would later join the superhero team the Avengers. Pym undergoes several name and costume changes during this time, going from Ant-Man to Giant-Man to Goliath and finally Yellowjacket. These changes are eventually revealed to be due to mental issues and an eventual breakdown. During the time Pym also accidently creates the Avengers' arch-enemy, a robot called Ultron. Despite a short retirement, Pym returns in civilian guise to assist the newly formed West Coast branch of the Avengers, and despite a suicide attempt eventually rekindles romance with Janet. Pym was recently revealed to be an alien impersonating him, with his current whereabouts unknown.

The character of Henry Pym has featured in other Marvel publications such as graphic novels; animated films and television series and merchandise such as action figures and trading cards. A live-action film featuring the character Ant-Man is currently under development.


This version adheres to the format but is sleeker and contains none of the POV (of which there was a great deal) and reworks the information into a succinct out-of-universe piece of prose. The language is now formal whereas before it was too casual and was somewhat verbose. I think this is as long as it can be without meandering or giving way to pure repetition.

Asgardian (talk) 03:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Asgardian and the general consensus on shortening the lead, and in fact gave the lead what I believe is a good streamlining. I do have to say, with all due respect to the experienced Asgardian, who has done much good work in the past few months particularly, that the version above still, to me, gives overdetail about what teams Pym has joined, and who his arch-enemy is. But this is all going in the right direction.
One purely technical note: Phrases like "currently under development" violate WP:DATED. Better to say something like "As of 2008" or "In 2008, Miracle Pictures announced John Doe would direct a..." --Tenebrae (talk) 04:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
The current lead (While I don't like the brevity...) looks pretty good, everyone! Does everyone agree on the current lead? (My apologies for taking so long to respond, everyone. I had some personal business to attend. My apologies!) CarpetCrawler (talk) 00:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Fine. It is, after all a work in progress, and we do need a lead. I might quibble about the last paragraph as I am unsure you'd strictly class the other media as being Marvel publications (they are usually published by someone else based on the Marvel license) and so the inclusion of graphic novels seems... out of place (as comic books, trades and any graphic novels would tend to fall under the general comic publications that are the basis of the bulk of the article). What graphic novels are these by the way? Nothing jumps out at me from the article. (Emperor (talk) 01:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC))
I've changed the lead as, yes, "publications" is all-inclusive. Also now "Marvel-endorsed" products. Graphic novels? Emperor Doom; Avengers Forever; The Last Avengers Story etc.

By the by, thanks for the award!

Asgardian (talk) 03:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

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