Talk:Harry Burleigh

Did Dvorak write the Largo?
The article on Dvorak strongly implies that Dvorak originally wrote the "Largo" theme from the "New World Symphony."

"...The theme from the largo was adapted into a spiritual-like song "Goin’ Home," by black composer Harry  Burleigh..."

This article on Burleigh implies that Dvorak used a pre-existing melody for the Largo.

..."However, Burleigh's role in introducing Dvorak to African American folk music was substantial. It was written      that "The first time a Negro song became a major theme in a greatsymphonic work... was in 1893, when Antonín Dvorak's New World Symphony was pla

Which is correct?? Danksparks (talk) 14:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I just edited the Burleigh article so that it no longer has the sentence mentioned. The main place I think for discussion of issues both about "Goin' Home" and "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" is the Talk page of New World Symphony. According to that article the adaptation of the Largo into "Goin' Home" was done by William Arms Fisher in 1922. Marlindale (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Mistake in Burleigh article
I noticed a mistake in this article on Harry Burleigh: Cameron White is listed as one of Burleigh's pallbearers with a link. The link leads to Cameron White who was born in Australia in 1983 and is a cricket player. I assume the pallbearer was Clarence Cameron White, who was a African American composer and violinist, died in 1960, and does have a wikipedia article to link to.

Sorry I didn't fix it myself -- I'm not an editor but do thoroughly enjoy reading wikipedia! Thank you for all your work.

Tenby — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:A:3E00:55:1D3E:CCA4:BC58:1265 (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. Marlindale (talk) 15:31, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity of Wallace (or Wallis) Willis
The spiritual Swing Low, Sweet Chariot was first made known to the public by the African-American Fisk Jubilee Singers. They had obtained it through an intermediary from the author/composer, Wallace Willis. The spiritual was not known before it was performed by the Fisk singers. Willis was a Choctaw freedman, implying he was Native American and specifically Choctaw, and freedman means he had previously been enslaved before moving with the tribe to Oklahoma. I don't know a basis for thinking Willis was mixed Native-African-American. It seems more likely to me that as a Native American living in a slave state, be was enslaved. Marlindale (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

(Please see below about Willis being "mixed", which I don't think anybody has suggested.) David Couch (talk) 05:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

As a rule, according to the WP article Spiritual, spirituals are believed to have been written/composed by African-Americans, but the Willis example shows that this rule can have exceptions. Marlindale (talk) 20:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I would be interested in opinions of others than the two of us who have been discussing this. Marlindale (talk) 20:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

The WP article Choctaw, accessed 17 Nov. 2015, indicates that "Choctaw Freedmen" were Choctaws who had been slaves of other Choctaws, until a decree of the U. S. government after the Civil War. Marlindale (talk) 22:54, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Marlindale, I think you may have misunderstood the term "freedmen." In the US, that generally refers to Black people -- enslaved African Americans -- who became free. When these enslaved people were freed, many became members of the tribes of their so-called owners. Therefore the Choctaw Freedmen were BOTH 1) members of the Choctaw Nation and also 2) Black people. Not a "mixture." Both. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedman#United_States. And as the WP article Choctaw freedmen explains:
 * The Choctaw freedmen were enslaved African Americans who became part of the Choctaw Nation with emancipation after the American Civil War.

Wallace Willis and his wife Minerva -- who evidently sang the same songs as him, but for "some reason" (hmmm...) is not given as much credit -- were Black people, and this is clear in the sources too. Just looking at the first 5 sources on the WP page for Wallace Willis: 1) Wright: "an old negro slave who belonged to ... a prominent citizen of the Choctaw Nation" 2) Willis's granddaughter Frances Banks in original source: "If our skins here be black, dey won't be no colors in heaven." (see https://books.google.com/books?id=1-iZdxzqNJUC&pg=PA42&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false) " 3) Oklahoma Historical Society: "Grave of "Uncle Wallace" Willis, Negro slave, composer of "Swing Low Sweet Chariot," etc" 4&5) Flickinger: "Uncle Wallace and Aunt Minerva were two of the colored workers ... they would often .. sing their favorite plantation songs, learned in Mississippi in their early youth." (On a whole other issue, I noticed that this last source denies them any actual composing credit.)

But I should really add --- I do not really think the parenthetical clause about Wallis Willis writing Swing Low Sweet Chariot even belongs in this article at all. Willis is far afield from Mr. Burleigh, and is only here because of a special interest by one WP contributor in the precise ethnicity of those who sang or wrote spirituals. OR -- perhaps the final parenthetical clause could be changed so as to refer back to the beginning of the paragraph which refers to Dvorak's interest in both Black and Native American music by saying (about Swing Low):
 * (and which interestingly may have been written by a Black Native American, the Choctaw freedman Wallis Willis)

I would change it myself right now, but I think all my recent little nit-picky changes may be starting to annoy Marlindale, who has done a lot of work on this page. I want to change "written/composed" to "written" and I don't think Wallis Wallis "probably" wrote Swing Low -- the support for that is very very weak, only from his grandchild 80 years after the alleged composition. The testimony repeated a few times seems mainly to be that he (and Minerva) sang the song. I too enjoy singing lots of great songs, but I have written very few and they're not all that memorable! But 80 years from now, in an interview, my grandchild might give me a little too much credit... for some of the others. David Couch (talk) 05:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm convinced by the Choctaw Freedmen article that they were African American. I suppose that was relatively the largest difference of opinion? Anyhow I have no further edits to the Burleigh article to suggest myself at this point. Marlindale (talk) 20:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

It now seems to me that "Black Native American", although we agree on it as factually correct, may be unclear to many readers, who might think that "Black (African-American)" and "Native American" are mutually exclusive. We mean, I think, Black (African-American, by descent), but Native American in legal status. Do we agree on such qualifications? If not, are there alternate wordings to consider? Marlindale (talk) 02:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for being open-minded and for your edits; I think you certainly make things clear now about Wallis's ethnicity -- although perhaps more than necessary! :-) As you know, I don't really think this article should even include info about Wallis at all. But that's OK. Perhaps somebody else will have some suggestions or different wording but I am satisfied for the moment. I am one of those people who prefers to have too much info rather than not enough info.David Couch (talk) 05:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Simpson book - page numbers?
This book seems to be a useful reference. It would be even better to give page numbers in places where it is cited. Marlindale (talk) 17:18, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Burleigh Society
The LoC link to https://www.burleighsociety.com is dead, and a clue to its fate is on the Facebook page. I wonder where else one might look for a complete worklist? Sparafucil (talk) 23:16, 13 December 2023 (UTC)