Talk:Harvey Milk/Archive 15

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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on Harvey Milk. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090812220533/http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Background-on-Medal-of-Freedom-ceremony/ to http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Background-on-Medal-of-Freedom-ceremony/

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2017
Alma mater link broken. Working URL is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_at_Albany,_SUNY TheDHC (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  14:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Honoring Harvey Milk
Hi all! This November 8th marks the 40th anniversary of Milk's historic election, and San Francisco's Illuminate the Arts is unveiling two works of art in his honor(see project description here). Part of that includes an incredible image of Milk created with the names of well over 100 trailblazers for LGBT rights. An interactive site is currently in the works that would allow visitors to scroll over names and have their corresponding wiki links pop up. BUT some wiki pages are missing, so I'm calling on wikipedia's LGBT community for help in creating these pages and being a part of this incredible initiative.

Please see the list of names (and one place) still waiting for their wiki pages at WT:LGBT. Any and all help would be so very wonderful. Thank you!

Hd93 (talk) 01:27, 27 October 2017 (UTC) Updated by Mathglot (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2017 (UTC) to add link to single list to avoid duplication.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080724221510/http://sfnpc.org/duboceharveymilkhistory to http://www.sfnpc.org/duboceharveymilkhistory
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080907143530/http://milkmemorial.org/ to http://www.milkmemorial.org/

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Mention Milk's appetite for 16 year old boys?
In such a long article, should not Milk's appetite for 16 year old boys even be mentioned? The name Jack Galen McKinley (John Galen McKinley) is mentioned, but not his age. Nor that the age of consent i California at the time was 18 years.

Should not Gerard Dols claims even get a single sentence?

Humans have flaws, and I don't think that stringent white-washing of someones history is in Wikipedia's best interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.210.25.127 (talk) 13:48, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Tributes
One of San Francisco's historic streetcars was dedicated to Harvey Milk on Tuesday, October 28, 2008, same day as the film's premier at the Castro Theater. PCC streetcar no. 1051 is painted in the 1970s livery used by the San Francisco Municipal Railway and appeared briefly in the film Milk. Here are links with additional and supporting information. JamisonWieser 15:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Streetcar to be Dedicated to Harvey Milk on Tuesday
 * Muni Streetcar No. 1051 Dedicated to Supervisor Harvey Milk
 * Harvey Milk Remembered - this has a photo of the onboard tribute
 * PCC Streetcar Makes a Cameo in Harvey Milk Movie

In 1947, Harvey Milk was among a group of shirtless men arrested for indecent exposure in Central Park

 * "In 1947, for instance, Harvey Milk was among a group of shirtless men arrested for indecent exposure in Central Park, yet the bare-chested married men in the park weren't harassed."
 * https://www.stuffmomnevertoldyou.com/blogs/how-american-men-won-the-right-to-go-topless.htm


 * "The police in Central Park routinely rounded up homosexuals. Officers cited them for indecent exposure because some gay men were shirtless. ... In August 1947, police arrested a shirtless Harvey, then seventeen..."
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=n-JhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Milk+arrested

69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:58, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Redistricting poorly mentioned in the lead
Perhaps Milk’s greatest political achievement was his ability to shepard the redistricting plan into law, and the only mention in the lead calls it a “shift”. It is also full of (completely unnecessary) puffery that in most cases isn’t sourced. Calling this article an example of some of the best that Wikipedia has to offer is like our stable genius giving himself an A+. And that’s really sad. That man from Nantucket (talk) 06:59, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Stark Street, Portland, Oregon
Part of Stark Street has been renamed to commemorate Harvey Milk. I invite editors familiar with this article to update accordingly. Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 01:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Added a few sentences detailing that; however, I spent nearly 20 minutes trying to get the "access date" section of the citation working properly to no avail (I'm a novice on here). A metaphorical coffee for whoever fixes it. Marcello Ursic (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

People's Temple
This article really downplays his link with Jim Jones' People's Temple. Jones was pro-gay rights which probably helped cement the links, but what is less excusable is how Milk exploited Jones. This only gets one paragraph in this article yet entire books have been written on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.255.234.6 (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Milk thought they were a creepy manipulative cult. How many books do you need to say that? Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:09, 2 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Milk happily associated with them and was much closer to them than most biographies suggest. In fact in many cases, including rhe film, it is something which is completely ignored/omittee, presumably because it undermines his "sainthood". That rhe man was just a jobbing politician, wishing to exploit such a group - cynically or otherwise - doesn't fit in with the hagiography. Yet that seems to be what he was, when we look outside his gay rights activism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.255.234.210 (talk) 07:42, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * All politicians happily associate with loads of people, many disreputable. It’s the job. As a politician you represent all the communities, not just the ones you like, or who support you at the time. Jones was duplicitous and conniving, and powerful politically. It would have been career suicide to publicly go against him.
 * If you have reliable sources that Milk was more involved than all the other politicians then let’s look it over and see if something needs to be added. Otherwise it seems like Milk did what every other politician was doing at the same time, taking advantage of an opportunity while warning his staff to be on their guard.
 * And, of course entire books have been written on the subject, Jim Jones led what is arguably the most famous suicide cult in history, it would be stunning if there weren’t lots of books about it. People are endlessly fascinated by suicide cults. Gleeanon409 (talk) 07:57, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

picture of stamp
Add a picture of Harvey's stamp in the section Tributes and media (towards the end where the stamp is mentioned). Such as https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/05/18/National-Politics/Images/Harvey_Milk_Stamp-0e4a4.jpg

Thanks, red_xiii (talk) 07:59, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I’ll leave this as unanswered in hopes someone more up on image copyright can answer, however my impression is that it’s artwork that may not be allowed to be reproduced here, but maybe because it’s the USA government it could be used. If no one clears it up within a few weeks add a note again and I can try to get a definitive answer. You could also ask at the WP:Helpdesk. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * ❌. The image would have to be available on Commons, and even they don't give much guidance on copyright policy on stamps. Until then, this is moot. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 17:00, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * On second thought, you be able to make an argument to allow this under WP:NFCC, but you're still going to have to do this much yourself before anyone can add the image to the article.  Asking at the help desk, as advised above, might be a good place to start. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 17:09, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Best headline I've seen in years
"The Navy made Harvey Milk resign for being gay. Now they’re going to name a ship after him." I see we already have a mention of the ship under "Legacy", and we have a debunking of the story that the Navy discharged him for being gay. But still, you gotta love this headline - what a marvelous distillation of how things have changed in American society! -- MelanieN (talk) 18:54, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Joe Campbell Relationship
I changed seven years younger to "nearly six years younger." Campbell was born October 4, 1936. David Cary Hart (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Anita Bryant
Anita Bryant is mentioned but her name isn't linked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Bryant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:CEF0:ADB0:7199:BEF6:3B4A:B085 (talk) 08:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅, linked now. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:06, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Milk sent a letter to defend Rev. Jones in February '78, not in '76
The article mentions the letter Milk sent to President Carter in the paragraph about the 1976 election. In fact, this letter (which can be read here) was sent in February 1978, while Jones had been holding Timothy Stoen's son by pretending to be the legitimate father of the child, nine months before the Peoples Temple suicide in Guyana. I suggest moving this sentence to the proper section, and rewording with adequate references it to avoid any further misunderstanding (or whitewashing), perhaps by taking Timothy_Stoen as an example. Alcaios (talk) 00:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ,, and other authors of the article: any comment? Alcaios (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't get an answer —–— not surprising. Alcaios (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Added to the article – I reached de facto consensus since I'm the only one active in this discussion. I insist we should provide context for the letter: Jones had been holding Timothy Stoen's son – Milk denounced Stoen, stating that former Temple members were trying to damage Jones' reputation with "apparent bold-faced lies". I'll wait for your answers, but I shall add it to the article myself if nobody answers as it happened last time. Alcaios (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Milk's complicity in the child murder in Guyana and attacking victims should be showcased more prominently.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.59.126.42 (talk) 23:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

"relevant?" tag under Legacy
There's a [relevant?] tag in the Legacy section questioning whether Milk opposing the closing of an elementary school is relevant. Currently, the surrounding paragraph explains the rationale for that detail's inclusion - Milk supported the inclusion of everyone in his neighborhood, even the non-gay people with kids who would be using an elementary school. I propose removing the tag. 2603:8080:6E00:F73B:7449:23D7:EAD0:CBD9 (talk) 19:57, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Dianne Feinstein v. Joe
The piece on Harvey Milk says SIR supported Dianne when she ran against Joe Alioto. I worked for both Joe and Dianne, and while she thought of challenging Joe, she never did. I know because I attended ab early Sunday morning when she talked about running against him. He was termed out, and she only became mayor when George Moscone was assassinated.

d 2601:645:500:1410:F4C6:8B76:857:D7AA (talk) 03:51, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Note 8 - typo?
The note in reference 8 is initially discussing White's finances, but the second half of the quote refers to Milk. Is that a mistake? If not maybe some additional context should be added because I'm not clear on the connection. 24.113.239.214 (talk) 10:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2023
Change: He started a romantic relationship with Jack Galen McKinley and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign.[16] Their relationship was troubled. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.[17]

to

In late 1964, Milk started a romantic relationship with Broadway Stage Manager John Galen "Jack" McKinley, who was born on October 18, 1946, and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater’s 1964 presidential campaign.[16]

It has been widely repeated that Milk and McKinley’s relationship began when McKinley was underage, based on the account of Randy Shilts in his biography of Milk, The Mayor of Castro Street, which was published in 1982. However, Shilts did not provide any evidence or citation for this claim, nor did he interview Milk or McKinley for his book. He also did not conduct any archival research to verify the dates or ages of the two men. His assertion lacks reliable support. But if they met in late 1964, as Shilts said, McKinley was 18 at the start of their relationship. Beautrix (talk) 01:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done: could not find secondary source disputing Shilts' characterization of the relationship, nor any general criticism of the book as unreliable. Further, the argument about McKinley's age is WP:OR as well as based on Find-a-Grave, which is self-published and therefore not WP:RS. Xan747 (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Accusations of pedophilia
Considering his relationship with Jack McKinnley began when McKinnley was 16 wouldn't it be relevant to mention that as pedophilia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viktory02 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, because it was legal to enter into such a relationship at the time. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it would not be relevant or accurate to mention that as pedophilia. Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder that involves sexual attraction to prepubescent children, not teenagers. Moreover, there is no reliable source that confirms that McKinley was 16 when he began his relationship with Milk. The only source that makes this claim is Randy Shilts, who did not provide any evidence or citation for it, nor did he interview Milk or McKinley for his book. He also did not conduct any archival research to verify the dates or ages of the two men. Therefore, his assertion is not supported by any reliable source. If they met in late 1964, as Shilts said, McKinley born Oct 18, 1946 was 18 at the start of their relationship. Beautrix (talk) 01:31, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Randy Shilts' biography of Milk certainly is a reliable source, and that source makes clear McKinley was 16 when his relationship with Milk began. The age of consent in California is 18 and has been 18 since 1913. Pedophilia is a psychiatric diagnosis, colloquially used to describe illegal, inappropriate and predatory relationships, like the one Milk is documented as having. Similar accusations appear on other pages. It's omission degrades this article and is likely due to bias and the desire to protect a 'secular saint.' Dr Fell (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The relationship took place in New York where it was entirely legal. Additionally, the biography is not reliable on all counts as it contains some demonstrable falsehoods and the biographer failed due diligence on many basic facts asserted therein. This is why reliable primary sources are always needed. Milk's partner appears to have been 17 at the time, and the age of consent in NY where the relationship occurred was much younger than CA's 18. Unless there is reliable primary source evidence confirming this, such as public statements by people involved in the relationship or by notable figures, news articles from RS, or a criminal record, adding criminal accusations violates biographical rules for obvious reasons.
 * Perhaps more fundamentally may be the misunderstanding that "secular saint" is a real thing. Most people who aren't highly religious do not come to know truth based on blind authority acceptance, so the morality of being gay and of gay rights has nothing to do with individual icons like Milk apart from the fact that people who disagree and errantly think it does are highly motivated to libel him. His arguments and political influence stand on their own rectitude regardless as to whether or not he had personal moral failings. Mistakenly believing his actions reflect on his arguments is the only reason I can imagine why somepony who clearly doesn't know Milk's history or details about his biographer would wish to tar his encyclopedia entry with the worst possible accusation on flimsy ground. I make no presumption of your religious beliefs, but it's worth pointing out that Christian fundamentalists frequently make this mistake in regards to other notable figures of the early gay rights movement (Kinsey for an obvious example) and talk pages for the biography of queer people can become a mess similar to talk pages on conspiracy theories.
 * Also, I actually have a degree in psychology and have treated patients in clinic prior to grad school (though I later switched careers). You are entirely incorrect on both the DSM's current definition and classification of Pedophilic Disorder, as well as what qualifies for diagnosis of any disorder (criminal/legal referrals or referrals due to interference in social or occupational functioning). But you don't need a degree to know the diagnostic criteria for the disorder as these are easy to look up (prepubescent children only, i.e. preteen in most cases, and the patient must be at least sixteen years old and subjects of their desire at least five years younger). Even then, the DSM-V is primarily an index for billing purposes with treatment suggestions, not a moral compass. As far as we know, Milk was never diagnosed with anything like this, and he was most certainly not convicted of a crime against children as his opponents wanted nothing more than to tar him in the same way you're doing here. Calling queer people pedophiles in general from bigotry or in particular from very weak evidence was once a popular tactic in politics, one which has unfortunately seen recent resurgence.
 * In future it would behoove you to review primary sources before lobbying for a potentially slanderous accusation in a person's biography.

TricksterWolf (talk) 22:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I would like Harvey Milk's Wikipedia page to be updated to show that John Galen "Jack" McKinley was 17 or 18 when he and Harvey Milk started a relationship. I have the Find A Grave source (which I've seen isn't acceptable for Wikipedia), I have the birthdate and death date data from Social Security via the Ancestry.com page, I have the 1950 Federal census page from April 10, 1950 showing that McKinley was 3 at the time, I have an article from The Daily Mail on November 4, 1963 showing that McKinley was 17.  Since Milk and McKinley started a relationship in late 1964 that would make McKinley 17 or 18.  New York age of consent at that time was 14 years old (way too young, but that's what it was) - age of consent information is based on a Fox News article from today and an article from The Hill dated July 22, 2021 (and other news sources). Southpaw70 (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No it was not legal at the time at all and it is true about Milk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.14.40.216 (talk) 09:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Documents Proving McKinley’s Age
I assert that McKinley was not 16 at the time of meeting Milk. I have evidence in the form of the 1950 US census, the social security death index, and multiple newspaper articles (including obituary) verifying that McKinley turned 18 in 1964, when evidence suggests he first met Milk. As McKinley is verified to have run away from home at age 17 in 1963, it is impossible that he was 16 upon meeting Milk in 1964. This Wikipedia article should be edited to reflect this evidence. 2600:1012:A136:BBD5:45F:9DB7:E68A:A920 (talk) 05:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * There is already a quite lengthy discussion about this going on just above at Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023. Please go there and actually provide your evidence instead of simply asserting that you have it. Thanks. Xan747 (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)