Talk:Harvey Milk

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023
Please change: "He started a romantic relationship with Jack Galen McKinley and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign.[16] Their relationship was troubled. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.[17]He was prone to depression and sometimes threatened to commit suicide if Milk did not show him enough attention.[18]" To this: "He started a romantic relationship with John Galen "Jack" McKinley (born October 18, 1946) and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 17 or 18 years old. Their relationship was troubled.  McKinley was prone to depression and sometimes threatened to commit suicide if Milk did not show him enough attention." Southpaw70 (talk) 23:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Find a Grave is not a reliable source, please see WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 00:06, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: The exact same request was declined by me for the same reason just over a week ago, by a different, freshly created account. Something doesn't smell right. Xan747 (talk) 00:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a different person. I am seeing people accuse Harvey Milk of pedophilia with John Galen "Jack" McKinley. McKinley's age is incorrect, he is 17 or 18 when Milk and him started a relationship in late 1964.  So it is important to have the facts out there.  It is probably very obvious that I am new to trying to make edits in Wikipedia, but I have sources besides Find A Grave, like the Social Security listing McKinley's birthdate and death date, The Daily Mail article listing that he went missing in November 1963 and was 17 years old at the time, the 1950 census showing him as 3 years old in April 1950. Southpaw70 (talk) 01:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I just saw that this is happening right now: California to fine school district $1.5 million for rejecting materials mentioning Harvey Milk Xan747 (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As part of the same story, CNN reports:
 * Board members who opposed the curriculum called Milk a “pedophile” in the May meeting before voting it down. The 34-year-old Milk had a relationship with a 16-year-old while living in Greenwich Village in New York that has long been a source of controversy, according to the late San Francisco journalist Randy Shilts’ biography of Milk, “The Mayor of Castro Street.” The age of consent in New York was raised from 14 to 18 in 2017. Komrosky said in June that his statements about Milk “were not based upon him being a homosexual, but rather based upon him being an adult having a sexual relationship with a minor.”
 * The source is still Shilts though.
 * You won't be able to use the Daily Mail or Fox as sources. The Mail is completely disallowed as a source on Wikipedia, and Fox is highly discouraged when the subject is political--which this is. Find A Grave is sometimes, rarely, allowed when it's clear that it's from public records like Social Security. The problem is that you're trying to combine information from multiple sources to make an argument that none of those sources say on their own, which is known as WP:SYNTH. Matter how good the individual sources are, we simply cannot string them all together to refute what Shilts' well-regarded biography says. Xan747 (talk) 02:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Daily Mail I'm referencing is a local paper out of Hagerstown, Maryland. I have downloaded a picture of that showing the name of the newspaper and date.  I also downloaded a picture of the census page showing that John Galen was 3 years old at the time, which was April 10, 1950.  These are consistent with John Galen being 17 or 18 at the time him and Milk started having a relationship in late 1964.  What's interesting is that Shilts' book mentions that "at sixteen he decided to quit high school, jump on a Greyhound bus, and leave rural Hagerstown, Maryland, for the gay scene in Greenwich Village he'd heard of." (Kindle Ch. 3, p.1). But his disappearance is noted in The Daily Mail article and lists him as 17 years old on October 22, 1963. Southpaw70 (talk) 05:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I bought Randy Shilts book, "The Mayor of Castro Street." I am suggesting some changes to this section of the article: He started a romantic relationship with Jack Galen McKinley and recruited him to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign. Their relationship was troubled. When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.
 * These are the suggested changes:
 * Milk started a romantic relationship with John Galen "Jack" McKinley after McKinley left Hagerstown, MD at the age of 17 in October 1963. (Note: Several age-related references are listed in order to show constancy.  Shilts stated that McKinley was 16 years old when Milk and McKinley started a relationship, but he also states that "Jack Galen McKinley had commited [sic] suicide by the time primary research began on this book." ). He recruited McKinley to work on conservative Republican Barry Goldwater's 1964 presidential campaign.[16]
 * I think "Their relationship was troubled." should be removed because the language doesn't offer a neutral point of view.
 * I think the next sentence should be removed because the conflicting sources are mentioned a couple of sentences earlier. And also Shilts' book has their relationship starting before the presidential campaign.
 * "When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflicting_sources
 * Sometimes, although not often, the policy that our threshold is verifiability, not truth means that although something can only be one or another, we cannot determine which one it is. Southpaw70 (talk) 08:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok I am digesting this and will get back to you. Xan747 (talk) 16:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The unknown adventures of Harvey Milk in Dallas So in January 1967, Milk and his then-20-year-old lover John Galen McKinley packed up their dog Trick and moved to Dallas. This time, Milk had no problem getting a job. He worked at Bache & Co.’s Dallas office in the Mercantile Continental Building at 1810 Commerce St. Xan747 (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The age information seems more inline with the other age-related sources, and information on their life (relationship, location, pets) is inline with Randy Shilts' book. Southpaw70 (talk) 19:49, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Why we don't use Ancestry.com:
 * John (Jack) Galen McKinley
 * Birth 18 Oct 1946 - Hagerstown, Washington, Maryland, USA
 * Death 14 February 1980 - New York City, New York, USA
 * Mother Unavailable
 * Father Unavailable
 * Born in Hagerstown, Washington, Maryland, USA on 18 Oct 1946. John (Jack) Galen McKinley married Harvey Bernard Milk. She passed away on 14 February 1980 in New York City, New York, USA.
 * Xan747 (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Find A Grave information above differs in some ways from what I'm seeing at https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189498799/john-galen-mckinley
 * John Galen “Jack” McKinley
 * BIRTH 18 Oct 1946 Frostburg, Allegany County, Maryland, USA
 * DEATH 14 Feb 1980 (aged 33) New York, New York County, New York, USA
 * BURIAL Rest Haven Cemetery Hagerstown, Washington County, Maryland, USA
 * And there is no mention of McKinley marrying Milk, or McKinley being referred to as "she."
 * The memorial part says:
 * JOHN GALEN (Jack) McKINLEY, 33, of New York City and formerly of Hagerstown, died suddenly Thursday in New York City. Born in Frostburg, he was the son of Robert B. McKinley, Hagerstown; and the late Alice C. Wampler McKinley.
 * He was employed at the LaMama Theatre Club, NY City. He was a former member of Washington Square United Methodist Church.
 * Besides his father, he is survived by four sisters: Dorothy Baker, Oxon Hill; Betty Butts, Roanoke, Va.; Alyce Revell, Elkton; and Helen Obitts, Hagerstown; three brothers, David McKinley, Cleveland, Ohio; Robert McKinley, Fairplay; and William McKinley, Williamsport.
 * Memorial services were held at the LaMama Theatre Club. Burial in Rest Haven Cemetery. Local arrangements were handled by the Rest Haven Funeral Home.
 * Source: Daily Mail (Hagerstown, MD)
 * Saturday, February 16, 1980
 * Southpaw70 (talk) 19:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Southpaw70 (talk) 19:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * From a very old talk thread in this page's archives:
 * I agree that there is little point in stating McKinley's age, although Jimjilin may have miscalculated it. According to Shilts, McKinley was 33 when he died on February 14, 1980 (Mayor of Castro Street, p. 343). If so, McKinley was 17 on February 14, 1964, and was 17 or 18 when Milk met him in late 1964. I believe the reference on p. 30 giving McKinley's age as 16 refers to his age when McKinley first met Tom O'Horgan, not when McKinley moved in with Milk. None of which matters for this Wikipedia entry.Vince Emery 18:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinceemery (talk • contribs)
 * According to Milk's address book, in which he also recorded the birthdays of people he knew, McKinley was born October 18, 1946. Therefore, when Milk met McKinley in late 1964, McKinley was at least 17 years old, and possibly 18 years old. 17 is the age of consent in New York state, so the pedophile consideration is not valid in this case.Vince Emery 17:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinceemery (talk • contribs)
 * That editor editor has been active as recently as July 15 of this year, so maybe you could strike up a conversation with him. Xan747 (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't think about the math on page 343 of the book, that does align with the census data, and the age at when he went missing from his home on Lanvale St.
 * On page 30, "John Galen McKinley delighted in telling Harvey this this was the sole explanation of why at sixteen he decided to quit high school, jump a Greyhound bus, and leave rural Hagerstown, Maryland, for the gay scene in Greenwich Village he'd heard rumors of."
 * Except for the age information, this above matches the November 4, 1963 articles that are posted in The Morning Herald and The Daily Mail from Hagerstown, MD that mention John McKinley was 17 years old when he missing on October 22, 1963.
 * On page 30, referring to McKinley, "Lodging came easy in New York, first with Tom O'Horgan, an entertainer who had made a small mark in the lounge circuit by telling jokes as he strummed a harp. By 1963, O'Horgan had gone bohemian and was trying his hand at experimental theater.  McKinley had lived with O'Horgan for only a few weeks when he came in one day to announce that a handsome businessman twice his age was vying for his affection."
 * (pg. 30)..."Within a few weeks, McKinley moved into Harvey Milk's Upper West Side apartment. They bought a dog...and settled into a middle-class domestic marriage.  At thirty-three, Milk was launching a new life..."
 * Since it mentions that Harvey Milk was 33 years old and incorporating the news article reporting that 17 year old McKinley went missing October 22, 1963 - this happened sometime between Oct. 22, 1963 and Harvey's May 22, 1964 birthday. The relationship started before May 22, 1964.  Do I add Vinceemery to this talk so that he sees our conversation? Southpaw70 (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Southpaw70, sorry I got busy on other edit requests and my own interests and forgot that I'd left this hanging. Pinging @Vinceemery, what is your source for the claim that Milk's address book gives McKinley's birth date as October 18, 1946? Note that this is the same birth date listed by Find-a-grave attributed to the Daily Mail (Hagerstown, MD) Saturday, February 16, 1980 obituary. If we can source that newspaper clip then I think we can use that information in this article. Xan747 (talk) 02:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * That is no problem at all. I sent a request to https://www.washcolibrary.org/obits for John Galen "Jack" McKinley and Joseph Berger, Information Services Librarian - Genealogy Specialist at the Washington County Free Library in Hagerstown, MD sent me a copy of McKinley's obituary.  It doesn't have the date on the clipped article, but the email I received from him says,
 * Attached is the obituary from the Hagerstown, MD newspapers on microfilm.
 * MCKINLEY, JOHN G. "JACK", 33, Sat 16-FEB, 1980, DM, C-6/3
 * DM = The Daily Mail (September 1, 1890 to September 30, 2007)
 * Joseph Berger
 * Information Services Librarian - Genealogy Specialist
 * Project Manager - Historic Newspaper Index
 * Washington County Free Library
 * Alice Virginia and David W. Fletcher Branch
 * [REDACTED - Oshwah]
 * Looking at a different source, which is the Social Security Administration's Death Master File (DMF) [Https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request&#x20;dmf.html?tl=0 https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html?tl=0], they provide that file to the Department of Commerce's National Technical Information Service (NTIS) [Https://dmf.ntis.gov/ https://dmf.ntis.gov/]; the NTIS sells the DMF to other agencies. Ancestry has purchased the DMF and makes it searchable on the Ancestry.com website.  Here is a FAQ on  Ancestry regarding the Social Security Death Index [Https://search.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/faq.aspx https://search.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/faq.aspx].
 * Ancestry.com at [Https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/3693/ https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/3693/] says, "Beginning in 2014, legislative rules governing the SSDI changed. Going forward, records from the most recent 3 year period will not be available to Ancestry.com. Once a record is made available, it can be published."
 * I'm not sure if you can access this for free, or if you have to subscribe, but here is a link to John McKinley in the Social Security Death Index [Redacted - Oshwah]. In case you can't access the link, here is the text which was done by copy and paste:
 * John McKinley
 * Name
 * John McKinley
 * Social Security Number
 * [REDACTED - Oshwah]
 * Birth Date
 * 18 Oct 1946
 * Issue year
 * 1962
 * Issue State
 * Maryland
 * Last Benefit
 * [REDACTED - Oshwah]
 * Death Date
 * Feb 1980
 * ==== Source Citation ====
 * Social Security Administration; Washington D.C., USA; Social Security Death Index, Master File
 * ==== Source Information ====
 * Ancestry.com. U.S., Social Security Death Index, 1935-2014 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2014.
 * Original data: Social Security Administration. Social Security Death Index, Master File. Social Security Administration.
 * ==== Description ====
 * The Social Security Administration Death Master File contains information on millions of deceased individuals with United States social security numbers whose deaths were reported to the Social Security Administration. Birth years for the individuals listed range from 1875 to last year. Information in these records includes name, birth date, death date, and last known residence.
 * I have found a free genealogy source that pulls data from the Social Security Death Index:
 * [REDACTED - Oshwah] Southpaw70 (talk) 23:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Southpaw70 - Woah there, partner! I had to suppress some information that you pasted in your response above. Addresses and social security numbers of people (even those who are no longer alive), in general, should not be publicly disclosed on Wikipedia.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   02:50, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Oversight mentions non-public information. I posted this information above: Ancestry.com at [5]https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/3693/ says, "Beginning in 2014, legislative rules governing the SSDI changed. Going forward, records from the most recent 3 year period will not be available to Ancestry.com. Once a record is made available, it can be published." Southpaw70 (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Southpaw70 - Woah there, partner! I had to suppress some information that you pasted in your response above. Addresses and social security numbers of people (even those who are no longer alive), in general, should not be publicly disclosed on Wikipedia.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   02:50, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Oversight mentions non-public information. I posted this information above: Ancestry.com at [5]https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/3693/ says, "Beginning in 2014, legislative rules governing the SSDI changed. Going forward, records from the most recent 3 year period will not be available to Ancestry.com. Once a record is made available, it can be published." Southpaw70 (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The following is a response that tripped an edit filter, but it doesn't appear to be talk page abuse, so I'm copying it to here after a request of WP:EFFP: Vinceemery I have been writing with @Xan747 about John Galen "Jack" McKinley's sentences on the Harvey Milk page. Xan747 mentioned that maybe I should communicate with you on this. I originally became concerned when McKinley's age was being brought up at school board meetings in Southern California, and Harvey Milk was being accused of being a pedophile. I see some sources that point to McKinley being 17 years old by early 1964 (social security records via Ancestry but they pull it from the Social Security Death Master File, the 1950 US Census, and The Morning Herald and The Daily Mail, both of Hagerstown, MD, with a small article reporting that 17 year old John McKinley went missing on October 22, 1963.) The social security records give the actual birthdate of October 18, 1946; the 1950 Census shows that McKinley is 3 years old by April 10, 1950; and two identical articles that ran in the local papers show that McKinley was 17 years old by the time he disappeared on October 22, 1963. Shilts' book mentions twice on page 30 that McKinley is 16 years old, but on page 376 he says that "Jack Galen McKinley commited [sic] suicide by the time primary research began on this book." So Shilts did not get to talk with McKinley and verify any of the information about him. I think "Their relationship was troubled." should be removed because the language doesn't offer a neutral point of view.On page 30, "John Galen McKinley delighted in telling Harvey this this was the sole explanation of why at sixteen he decided to quit high school, jump a Greyhound bus, and leave rural Hagerstown, Maryland, for the gay scene in Greenwich Village he'd heard rumors of."Except for the age information, this above info. matches the November 4, 1963 articles that are posted in The Morning Herald and The Daily Mail from Hagerstown, MD that mention John McKinley was 17 years old when he went missing on October 22, 1963.On page 30, referring to McKinley, "Lodging came easy in New York, first with Tom O'Horgan, an entertainer who had made a small mark in the lounge circuit by telling jokes as he strummed a harp. By 1963, O'Horgan had gone bohemian and was trying his hand at experimental theater. McKinley had lived with O'Horgan for only a few weeks when he came in one day to announce that a handsome businessman twice his age was vying for his affection."(pg. 30)..."Within a few weeks, McKinley moved into Harvey Milk's Upper West Side apartment. They bought a dog...and settled into a middle-class domestic marriage. At thirty-three, Milk was launching a new life..." Since it mentions that Harvey Milk was 33 years old and incorporating the news article reporting that 17 year old McKinley went missing October 22, 1963 - this happened sometime between Oct. 22, 1963 and Harvey's May 22, 1964 birthday. The relationship started before May 22, 1964.I believe this sentence should be changed to incorporate the information above:"When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1964, McKinley was 16 years old."Maybe it could be changed to update the timeframe they met and McKinley's age, "When McKinley first began his relationship with Milk in late 1963 or early 1964, McKinley was 17 years old." Southpaw70 (talk) 04:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC) — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 15:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Is the use of LGBT anachronistic?
LGBT is modern political ideology / concept. It can't be said with any exactitude that he would have suppported LGBT positions. Surely it would be more accurate to refer to him as being not only gay or homosexual, but as a supporter of gay, homosexual, lesbian and same sex attracted rights? 2400:2410:9520:4C00:51C5:A7A0:4FF8:E941 (talk) 13:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Since multiple reliable sources retroactively refer to him as a member of the LGBT community, it's ok for us to do the same. (It would be different if multiple RS noted substantial controversy over that classification.) Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 21:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks to the editors.
As of today, this article is clear, very readable, and seems to be complete. Good job and thank you. Wordreader (talk) 17:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)