Talk:Hazing

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tacoby Cobb Jr.. Peer reviewers: Latriceetheresa.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:10, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled
shouldn't there be a section on the positive aspects of hazing and its social uses? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.133.235 (talk) 13:34, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Methods
This section of the article is a grammatical mess. Even if I had the time and patience to try to fix it, I wouldn't know where to begin. One thought is to make each of the sentence fragments a separate bullet, which would add considerably to the length of the article (assuming separate lines for each bullet), but would make the fragments a little more tolerable. If, however, it is to be kept in "paragraph" form, then:
 * The paragraphs should be organized by relation.
 * There shouldn't be any any sentence fragments.

For example: Markings may also be made on clothing or bare skin. They are painted, written, tattooed or shaved on, sometimes collectively forming a message (one letter, syllable or word on each pledge) or may receive tarring and feathering (or rather a mock version using some glue) or branding. Being tied together by the underwear, thus complicating/rendering any ridiculous task, e.g., eating together while all participants hands or food containers are tied to a long stick. Quizzes relating to  their school, fraternity or club history, rules and traditions and then tested on it. Such “exam” may however also be given unannounced or even on 'general knowledge'. As the punishments for wrong answers can constitute the "real fun", trick or nearly unsolvable questions are likely. Slave-like veneration of the seniors and thus verbal or physical submission to them, is common. Abject 'etiquette' required of pledges or subordinates may include prostration, kneeling, literal groveling, kissing/licking/washing/worshipping/massaging/rubbing/sucking/ body parts. This is  usually to portray the pledge as a slave to the pledge is stripped at least to the waist, tied or   held down and subjected to intense, prolonged tickling on the sides, ribs, feet and other sensitive spots, often by several ticklers at once.


 * "Being tied together by the underwear, thus complicating/rendering any ridiculous task, e.g., eating together while all participants hands or food containers are tied to a long stick." - Not only is this not a complete sentence, but it's not particularly clear, and lists two separate, seemingly unrelated instances at once (being tied together by the underwear, and having to eat together with hands tied to a long stick).


 * "Abject 'etiquette' required of pledges or subordinates may include prostration, kneeling, literal groveling, kissing/licking/washing/worshipping/massaging/rubbing/sucking/ body parts." - Surely this sentence could be broken down or formed better. "Worshiping" also seems to be misspelled; however, I just checked an online dictionary and it listed both "worshiping" and "worshipping" to be acceptable, so I'll let someone else make the final judgment call on the spelling.

There's also no logical progression from markings on the skin and clothing to tickling. The "Methods" section of this article seems to consist more of poorly formed lists than decent, informational paragraphs. I wish the best of luck to whoever may tackle the overwhelming burden of cleaning it up and making it more readable.

138.47.125.116 (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC) Rob

first paragraph
Is a bit of a mess. To be specific the part about continental Europe. And I can't think of a good sentence to replace it.

Mystman666 13:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I've updated it. It's a bit clearer but might need some more work. --Dazzla 18:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

cut from first sentence

 * is a felony offense referring to

It seems rather odd to include this as part of the definition when the article quotes someone talking about "states with no anti-hazing laws"&mdash;states of the United variety, too, though the practice is not unique to North America. &mdash;Charles P. (Mirv) 29 June 2005 07:30 (UTC)
 * I agree with this change; if the article is going to say something is a "felony offense" it should note exactly where it is a felony (which states, which countries?), and perhaps when and why it was made a felony offense. Kaibabsquirrel 29 June 2005 08:13 (UTC)

Hazing in the trades
Hazing was (or still is) also common for apprentices in various trades when finishing their apprenticeship. In my trade of printing, it consisted of applying bronze blue to the apprentice's balls. Bronze blue is a colour made from mixing black printers ink and dark blue printers ink. It takes a long time to wash off completely. Fortunately for me, hazing was in the news a lot when I finished my apprenticeship so I didn't have to suffer it.

Mechanics underwent greasing of the balls. I believe the old dirty grease was saved for this. &mdash; Hippietrail 17:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This is good material. Since you didn't work it in to the article, I've take the liberty while cleaning up the vocabulary, though you rather deserved the credit. Fastifex 19:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

frathazing
The frathazing hyperlink does not appear to be functional (at least for me).
 * Indeed, the site no longer contains the relevant galleries (which were free, except when ordering hard copies). Fastifex 19:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

German
"A German variation is the 'cloths line', i.e. contributing garments (remaining decent, e.g. in swim suit) to form a long line" Some real German army hazing practises involve (apart from excessive amounts of alcohol) total nudity and a "rubber pussy" aka gas mask worn NOT on your face, or steel helmets on elbows, knees and head and being thrown/sliding across the floor, although these things might not be traditional and common but might be blamed on the alcohol instead.
 * What makes this "German"? This is the first time this German learned about this variation.

"Cloths line" or ballon dances are more Scandinavian habits.

Futhermore don't confuse the Bundeswehr with the NVA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.36.197.42 (talk) 11:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not true. There are no such things in the german Bundeswehr. Only on some ships in the german navy (Bundesmarine), there are some kinky rituals. But also in the Bundesmarine, nobody is forced. In Germany, vilolence is forbidden and criminal. Also against new soldiers. In Germany, "Hazing" would be seen as not compatible with the Human-Rights and the Citizen-Rights. "Hazing" maybe was practised in some parts and groups of the former "Hitler-Jugend". But the "Hitler-Jugend" does not exist anymore since 1945. Today, Germany is a civilized country. Only pimps and drug-dealers (which mostly come from other countries) do degrade, humilate and terrorize their new recruits. --91.52.178.34 (talk) 21:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC) --91.52.178.34 (talk) 21:31, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

WWI? College?
"The armed forces — in the US, hard hazing practices from World War I boot camps were introduced into colleges, in Poland ('fala')"

I'm confused by this statement. At the beginning of the sentence we are discussing the armed forces in the US, and by the end of the sentence we are talking about colleges in Poland. All I can think is that it must be meant to be two separate bullet points - one about the US military and one about colleges in Poland - but I don't know which one the "World War I" reference is supposed to go with. It would seem it should go with the college part because it is not accurate for the US military (some of our hazing rituals in the Marines were much newer than WWI and some were much, much older), but if it goes with the college part then all the military section is left with is, "The armed forces — in the US". Now, I know the US military isn't the only one that hazes its members, so that isn't right. Maybe it should be:
 * The armed forces — in the US, hard hazing practices from World War I
 * Boot camps ('fala') were introduced into colleges in Poland

But in that case, the college reference should be moved to the bullet point where academics are already mentioned. Does anyone know what should be here? Kafziel 13:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Ditch Day at Caltech
Is ist hazing, like the French Wiki maintains? Xx236 11:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

does wiki do apologetics, too?
" In military circles hazing serves to test recruits under situations of stress and hostility."

i'm sorry, but this sounds like a load of apologetic bs. there's no way you can tell me that making the new guy do disgraceful stuff like run around naked or eat slugs or what not is *really* done because of the above stated psychological aspect. you wont convince me the older guys don't get the tiniest kick out of torturing the new guys, if for nothing else, so they can make somebody pay for the exact same crap they had to go through when they themselves were the "new guys". you can't tell me at least a small amount of the drill sergeants aren't complete sociopaths who enjoy their work.

sure, hazing was originaly a rite of passage. sure, it was a test of masculinity. and sure, the statement i quoted fits perfectly the origin of hazing from an anthropological point of view. but beating somebody to the point they have to be sent to a hospital? rape? those extreme cases surpass the original purpose of the exercise. the sentence should make clear the distinction between regular boot camp and extreme cases. as it is now, it only intentionaly blurs the line between the two in an attempt to make it all look innocent and even inevitable. 213.172.254.100
 * It's not my line, but you're the one who reads the psychological assumptions into it: it just says there is a testing effect, which is true; it does NOT claim this to be the main or only purpose, let alone preclude any other appreciation by either party of participants, which are subjective anyway: one man's hell may even be another's rather masochist satisfaction. By the way, many units really do exercises that simulate both humiliation and physical endurance associated with captivity and questioning by a non-Geneva-conscious party, such as terrorists, civil war nuts or North Korea. Fastifex 12:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It was a very badly written section. Fixed. Dan100 (Talk) 18:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

um what?
Two points in this article seem iffy to me.

# In workplaces (Davis, 1998) -- who or what is (Davis, 1998)? This is the only time "Davis" appears in this article. If someone was going to cite a reference at the bottom, please do.

# various forms of 'fire baptism' for the 'graduating' novice apprentice in some sport of discipline, e.g. a pilot's first solo-flight. -- fire baptism? I googled this term and can't seem to figure it out in the context of hazing. And how is a pilot going on his first solo flight considered hazing anyway? I would think every novice pilot would eventually have to fly solo, not out of hazing but out of professional necessity. I think this needs a better example and a more recognizable term.

--I am not good at running 10:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Freemasonry? No
Freemasons do not haze...it is not part of the culture, nor is it part of the initiation ceremonies.
 * Indeed not the ancient tradition of internationally known 'proper' lodges. However there exist a version of more frivolous 'service' clubs', including the 'modern' US Shriners (which for example abandoed the term temple), where such practices have been adopted and ecen ead to court proceedings for injury according to (deleted). Keith Henson (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is this still allowed in many parts of the world?
I don't get it; it should obviously be illegal.. Any possible explanations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.226.11.248 (talk • contribs) 12:24, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Naked Open Terrorism against Shy People and Individual Sovereignty
I would like to see information on what psychological trauma hazing does to shy people, how they respond (negatively, with self harm or internal stress) or retaliate (positively, in defense of their rights and the rights of others not to be humiliated or suffer harm), and the criminal motives of the group to attack and reduce the individual for its own aggrandizement and base amusement. This seems to be a common modus operandi in human history, the group attacking the sovereignty of the individual to sublimate the will of the individual, and adopt the belief system of the group.

Needs editing
The article is in very poor structural condition, as varying sections have been modded by varying authors without care for overall consistency.

Much of the tone in the specific examples is written such that the article is ONLY about US fraternity hazing, while the heading purports to describe the wider phenomenon.

Duke Leto 17:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Creation of Sexual Hazing Section
A slew of incidents in recent years. As of now, I've come across only individual cases (all similar in pattern), but no data.

Including:


 * An incident involving high school football players in Virden, IL


 * Another at a basketball camp at Lyon College, Batesville, Arkansas:

"According to police reports filed by East Carter parents, several older East Carter players at the camp assaulted some of the younger players by sodomizing them with pine cones." 


 * A recent case was prominently featured on The Drudge Report. 3 East High football players arrested, kicked off team for sexual hazing:

''Three East High School football players have been arrested and charged in juvenile court after police say they forcibly held down other players and committed sex acts on them. The players eventually were kicked off the team.'' The three defendants, all 15, each face multiple charges in 3rd District Juvenile Court, including forcible sodomy, attempted forcible sodomy and forcible sexual abuse, all first-degree felonies. --71.227.191.140 09:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary psychology and Stockholm Syndrome?
"A tentative explanation from evolutionary psychology is that grave hazing can activate the psychological trait known as Stockholm syndrome."

Stockholm syndrome is a syndrome, not a psychological trait. There is a psychological *mechanism* that I make a case is activated fully or partly in a number of situations including hazing, but page about that is currently gone from Wikipedia. Keith Henson (talk) 19:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's just a bad sentence in many ways. "A tentative explanation" (for what? for why men do this, I guess) "from evolutionary psychology" (no authority cited) "is that grave hazing can activate the psychological trait known as Stockholm syndrome" (as noted above, might as well cut all words between "activate" and "Stockholm.") Even guessing at what is to be explained, this doesn't explain it -- the suggestion is that a propensity for breaking and binding men this way has value in terms of individual or (more likely) group evolutionary fitness, but this suggestion is not spelled out, nor is it compelling on the face of it. (If slavish adherence of men to the men's group is so desirable and adaptive, why isn't it wired in directly, like a pair-bond, or for that matter the readily observable drives for conformity that exist in unhazed people anyway? And what about all the hazing that never rises to the level of Stockholm Syndrome terrorism?) And again, no authority is given for the notion that any evolutionary psychologist believes this. Okay, I've convinced myself. The sentence is out of there. 209.181.57.144 (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The Norwegian Term (for Norwegians who wonder what "Hazing" is)
Since there is no corresponding article of this phenomenon in Norwegian, there are of course questions asked in the Norwegian society about what this "Hazing" thing might be. After viewing the definition of the term, and examples, I (as a student of Nordic culture and languages) think I know what this article is about. (Note: this is for Norwegian readers of this article, those who know Norwegian language and those who feel interested in Norwegian language and semantics and those Norwegian readers who wonder what "Hazing" is). The Norwegian term is "ilddåp" (literally: "baptism by fire"). This term is used when people do their job or duty for the first time - a sort of "work-related deflowering". (84.48.92.217 (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC))
 * "Mandomspröve" is more relevant, proving through pressure you are worthy to join the community. BP OMowe (talk) 10:31, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

"They may this, they may that..."
I'm under the impression we're looking for fact, not "maybe so-and-so does this"...


 * Police forces, especially those with a paramilitary tradition, or sub-units of police forces such as tactical teams, may also have hazing rituals.
 * Rescue services, such as lifeguards or air-sea reascue teams may have hazing rituals.

I'd like to see such "maybe, maybe not" claims removed. I'd also like to see references or evidence for the other claims, or removal in the absence of references or evidence.

220.236.12.187 (talk) 14:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

No. They are sourced and the "hurp durp only may" is detailed and explained. It is a fact that hazing occurs in these organisations. However it is not always known which ones, hence the "may". 124.169.161.72 (talk) 01:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC) Sutter Cane

hazing in the military
I think this article lacks information about the ineffective action that the military takes to prevent hazing. I would like to contribute.Kaitlyn confer (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaitlyn confer (talk • contribs) 14:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

This also misses the older usage, common in the days of sailing ships, where hazing meant abusive overwork of sailors often for punishment or with the intent of building a culture of instant obedience, or simply to satisfy the ego of an abusive officer. This is an important aspect of the sociology of hazing that needs discussion, but I'm afraid I don't have the necessary knowledge. Hazing exists as a means of training a group of people to the habit of obedience and subjugating themselves to the group. It is an effective technique which is subject to abuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jehrlich (talk • contribs) 23:45, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The abusive overwork of sailors on sailing ships was not hazing, as hazing typically is for a new initiate in a unit or organization. Some old US military hazing stunts (non-harmful types) were sending a new private out for a "can of beep", "100 feet of flightline, it's on a spool", "a box of grid squares", "a left handed smoke shifter for the tent heater", "a box of chem-light batteries" etc. Said private would then be sent elsewhere by another NCO, eventually managing to meet the entire unit and wasting a few hours. Harmful instances were well publicized and resulted in injury and deaths and were rightfully stopped, up to and including instances where new NCO's had their new rank punched by other NCO's, causing the rank pins to pierce the skin and in some units, beatings. In the red herring missions of the private, if said private figured out the prank and reversed it, said private was typically praised for their brightness (as in one private bringing back a can he painted OD green and stenciling BEEP and a fictional NSN).Wzrd1 (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Canada
Is this statement on Canada actually true? There simply aren't that many frats or sororities in Canada. Only a few of the major universities have them. Hazing, at least in Ontario, is more associated with "rooking". That is, getting ninth graders (during the first month they've entered High School) to perform silly and, in more extreme cases, dangerous or demeaning tasks. Eighth graders are often informed and warned about these events shortly before they enter secondary schools. Celynn (talk) 04:42, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

"Hazing is a term ..."
Hazing is not a term. Hazing, on the other hand, is a term.

The topic of this encyclopedic article is not hazing. The topic is hazing. The introduction to this article should be rewritten. Please refer to this page: Use–mention distinction. --31.45.79.44 (talk) 21:40, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

So the word hazing must be italicized?Greeninventor999 (talk) 06:06, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I guess I'll try to fix it then....
Although I've been using Wikipedia all-day every-day for....forever, I haven't really done any editing at all for years. I just made a new account last week, and this god-forsaken mess seems to need my help.

I don't really know what I'm doing. I'll review the guides and whatnots throughout. ANY help would be appreciated. (I'll start by turning the "sentences" into sentences, then go on from there.)

It looks as if "some new wikipedians may experience a form of hazing that could involve..." ....having to clean up this shitshow of an article created by their predecessors. :/   Anna Kissed &#39;em (talk) 05:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Links
>> Deadliest U.S. Fraternity Grapples With ‘Historic’ Pledging Ban>> Fraternity Chief Feared for Son as Hazings Spurred JPMorgan Snub(Lihaas (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2014 (UTC)).

Ragging
I've redirected a couple of region specific ragging articles to this article. If anyone has region specific content, then adding it here would be good. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:50, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Erroneous Gangstalking described as "Hazing"
There are a couple of paragraphs near the bottom of "Methods" that make a non-sequitur break from what the article has been describing hazing as.

They describe circumstances more akin to "gangstalking" and persecutory delusions than any other commonly-held notion of what hazing is.

As I don't have an account, and the only action I would have done is just deleting the related gangstalking paragraphs, I thought it'd be better to mention it so you guys could look at it and see if you make a connection there as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.122.32.12 (talk) 06:09, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


 * This is not an original research forum, unless you have reliable sources, "commonly held" is not usable here. Ybllaw (talk) 13:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Extreme Bias (not worthy of Wikipedia)
This entire article is incredibly biased. It only focuses on the American-style heavy hazing practices and even the definition used in the beginning comes from an organization called "Stophazing". Any arguments in favor are put down by using words like 'supposedly'. The entire article has become a joke and should be rewritten completely. Take an example from the article written in other languages. Tygret (talk) 14:16, 30 August 2022 (UTC)


 * There are numerous universities that have anti hazing policies in place and pages on their website about that. Your personal opinion is unfounded. Ybllaw (talk) 13:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

No mention of religion?
Near the top of the page.. "Hazing is seen in many different types of social groups, including gangs, sports teams, schools, cliques, universities, military units, prisons, fraternities and sororities, and even workplaces in some cases". The Dutch wikipedia's earliest mention of hazing is in monastries. Yet no mention here? Ybllaw (talk) 13:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)