Talk:He Jiankui

Merger
I am boldly merging Lulu and Nana here. The Lulu and Nana page is putatively about those two living people but was actually about the experiment that produced them and the reactions to it. I don't think we have enough information about the two girls to actually have a page about them. So I am just boldly doing this. If it is contested, we can have a formal merger discussion Jytdog (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC) FWIW - as OA of the earlier original "Lulu and Nana" article - yes - *entirely* agree - merging that article to here (ie, "He Jiankui") seems the better article focus at the moment, at least until there may be worthy verifications and details about the currently purported (afaik) "gene edited babies", I would think - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Nice merging.--Lvhis (talk) 18:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Nobody has contested it yet (whew), but it is good to have some explicit agreement. :) Jytdog (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * great. Jytdog (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 7 December 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved; request withdrawn. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

He Jiankui → Jiankui He – Corrected to original order the page was made in and according to his published scientific articles, lab website, and his social media pages CRISPR Editor (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)


 * queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * But this is the normal en.wp order. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The Chinese character order is 贺建奎 = "He Jiankui", with the surname first. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes but see his own Linkedin page, his facebook page, his book, Quake lab alumni website, Deem lab alumni website, his researchgate, we should follow order of how he translates it to English not other people's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CRISPR Editor (talk • contribs) 22:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I am a scientific researcher for over 10 years and an English speaking researcher needs to be able to search for the scientist by the English order he states in his own scientific publications otherwise they are not found by the scientific community. The order should not be defined by press releases and wikipedia users- some chinese names on wikipedia are in this type of order as exceptions. "There is an exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the Western ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering." Naming_conventions_(Chinese) Sources for name order as defined by him and his institutions: https://www.facebook.com/jiankuihe, https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiankui-he-a1917517/, https://www.amazon.com/Modularity-principle-evolution-complex-systems/dp/3844311416, https://quakelab.stanford.edu/people/alumni, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2978544/, https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jiankui_He, https://bio.sustc.edu.cn/en/?p=243, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCllbswlkjiLucnKTnS13LLA, http://www.nationalacademies.org/hk/index.html, http://sustc.edu.cn/en/news_events_1_1/2871, http://news.rice.edu/2010/11/17/new-way-of-predicting-dominant-seasonal-flu-strain/, https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/62315/wrc01279.pdf?sequence=1, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.731.6802&rep=rep1&type=pdf, https://cen.acs.org/articles/93/i43/Chinese-Firm-Enters-Next-Generation.html, https://www.genomeweb.com/business-news/chinas-direct-genomics-unveils-new-targeted-ngs-system-based-helicos-tech-clinical-use#.XAoULxNKjOQ, http://www.directgenomics.com/index.php/portal/page/index/id/10, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater. --CRISPR Editor (talk) 06:36, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. He's being refered to as He Jiankui in all newspapers as far as I can see. Laurent (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi WikiLaurent, did you look at any of the multiple references I provided? What is better source the press or his own wedding announcement? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater. --CRISPR Editor (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The "exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering" mentioned above, which does not apply to He, most often arises for individuals who use a Chinese name in Western (e.g. Anglophone) society where their Chinese name is reordered to Western First Last name order. The example, Wen Ho Lee worked at Los Alamos and lived in the USA for decades prior to his notoriety. He Jiankui, by contrast, has spent his life in PRC apart from 5 years in California schools. Chinese names of PRC persons are most often reported with the Chinese Last First name order that they actually use. User:CRISPR Editor does find some counterexamples including from PRC sources. But by contrast, a Google search (admittedly, a rought tool not conclusive) shows 1.6 million for "He Jiankui" vs 52,000 for "Jiankui He." NTK (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info. Please see this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater--CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I saw that already. It's a datapoint but it doesn't change the overwhelming usage of his name in English text. NTK (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2018 (UTC) It's also 8 years old and dates back to when he was living in Houston, so it's not persuasive as to what to use here. NTK (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * So marriages are no longer good after 8 years. Haha :)CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Since you're no longer arguing in good faith I will no longer respond to you. The question is what name is he known by in English media now. Not what he used in a wedding announcement in Houston 8 years ago. Which incidentally, in Chinese says "贺建奎" not "建奎贺". NTK (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This was a joke by the way as you can see by Haha and :). :DCRISPR Editor (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Also it is not what he is known in English media. The English media is not the end all source of information, primary sources are and I am an English speaking U.S. citizen and born in the U.S. Please give me a source for this to back up your information.CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * When I said "English media," I didn't just mean news media, I meant any English-language media. The overarching Wikipedia policy on article titles is "consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." Not official or preferred names. You are correct that He still uses "Jiankui He" in various English contexts. But "He Jiankui" is also correct, in fact more correct in his own language, is the normal Wikipedia convention for Chinese name article titles, and is now overwhelmingly "consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." But the bottom line is He was unknown outside his field before November, not very notable even within his own field before this experiment, and in the current context he is overwhelmingly known as "He Jiankui". That's not just from press releases much less circular leakage from Wikipedia, that's from the scientific community and policy-makers talking about him and news and social media coverage in English. There's no issue with locating this page based on the other order either. We list both, and search engines will find this page with both. NTK (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I just did a google search myself Jiankui He gives 1,780,000 results. He Jiankui gives 1,760,000 results. They are about roughly equal not 41,500 vs 1,630,000. Are you sure your data is correct? I would be happy to share my data. This google search is done at 12:19:44 PM PST and 12:19:54 PST on 12-9-2018. Interestingly Jiankui He is above now what He Jiankui is. I did a search a few days ago and found He Jiankui was higher, but now it looks like Jiankui He is higher.CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2018 (UTC) Here is the google search data showing Jiankui He is now higher in numbers than He Jiankui Jiankui He:1,780,000 v.s. He Jiankui:1,760,000 CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Both oppositions so far do provide primary sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources CRISPR Editor (talk) 19:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * You are confusing WP:Notability (which determines whether an article can exist) with WP:Article titles (which determines what the title should be). The title of the article is based on usage in reliable sources as defined in the policy WP:SOURCE, not just those used to base article content on (which is what the guideline WP:IRS governs). There is no reason to exclude primary sources in determining how reliable sources refer to a topic. --RexxS (talk) 15:49, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * More sources, not driven by the press release media storm (The wikipedia title is likely to affect press releases mentioned). We should define the name ordering before he became "famous". Press releases by the English media do not define someone's name ordering. - : His own lab website: http://web.archive.org/web/20120423031800/http://www.stanford.edu:80/~jiankui/, http://archive.li/3aMoR#selection-331.0-331.26, https://web.stanford.edu/group/petrov/BAPGV.html, https://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/pub/27275.php, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlKwDGtikEo, http://www.frontlinegenomics.com/news/13510/direct-genomics-presents-single-molecule-sequencing-of-e-coli/, http://www.directgenomics.com/index.php/portal/team/detail/id/1, https://openwetware.org/wiki/Jiankui_He, https://meetings.cshl.edu/cshasia/Programs/2018Programs/a-genome%20program.pdf, https://loop.frontiersin.org/people/108163/bio, http://www.weizmann.ac.il/conferences/SCG2015/sites/conferences.SCG2015/files/scg2015_poster_abstract_list.pdf, https://arxiv.org/search/q-bio?searchtype=author&query=He%2C+J.
 * The press releases previously went by the name order Jiankui He http://web.archive.org/web/20120329125853/http://www.stanford.edu/~jiankui/news.html CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:40, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * More sources, including some from U.S. goverment sources, NIH and NSF grants, data: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSM2483562, https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=1120699, https://plus.google.com/100096913332279426232, https://newmexicoconsortium.org/conferences/qbio/2010/summer-school/4th-q-bio-summer-school-students, http://seqanswers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16535,  https://studylib.net/doc/8706875/the-biological-physicist---american-physical-society, https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Starting-Tomorrow5th-qPCR-Symposium-USA.html?soid=1102494410123&aid=xKzPrhsGgCACRISPR Editor (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose . Per what Laurent and NTK said above. That He Jiankui has become notable enough for Wikipedia is due to the gene-editing baby incident, about which most reports were not from academic journals but from media, using "He Jiankui".--Lvhis (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information. Note that Associated Press was one of major sources of this article, per that Wikipedia notability guidelines referenced here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(events)#Diversity_of_sources "Significant national or international coverage is usually expected for an event to be notable. Wide-ranging reporting tends to show significance, but sources that simply mirror or tend to follow other sources, or are under common control with other sources, are usually discounted." "Media channels under common control or influence are usually counted as one local or national outlet and a single instance of coverage when they report a matter, even if they have several regional or national outlets. Similarly, where a single story or press release is simply re-reported (often word-for-word) by news publications, or when reporters base their information on repeating news coverage from elsewhere (for example, "AP reported that ..."), this should only be counted as a single source for the purpose of determining notability (see Wikipedia:Bombardment). Derivative reports and reports under common control cannot be used to verify each other, nor does mere repetition necessarily show the kind of effort that is good evidence of a significant matter."CRISPR Editor (talk) 21:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Also the author of the other major report from MIT Technology Review, Antonio Regalado, recently refers to his name as Jiankui He. He was the one who broke the story. See these twitter posts: https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1071077216581242881 and https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1070419770351202304CRISPR Editor (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks NTF for the info, please see two above bullet points, I agree with you and I know He Jiankui is correct order from the beginning but the issue as a scientific researcher myself we need to look up people's past work in the scientific literature and the order he has is Jiankui He. I am also a genome engineer so I have very suiting credentials to make this type of judgment as I am a scientific author. I have met the actual policy members such as George Church, Jennifer Doudna, Feng Zhang that I think you a referring to. :) Also see this website, the actual event that occurred and his own public appearances for the event is Jiankui He as can be seen at this link and the livestream recording at 1:15:00 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07573-w.  I just think the main thing if someone were to write a 214 page dissertation and 132 page book with their author name in Jiankui He it should stay in the order as intended by the person himself who authored it. The page was initially created Jiankui He and media reports had that but Wikipedia likely has influenced the press releases and policy makers. By the way genome engineering is my bread and butter and I teach it also by the way in the U.S. :)CRISPR Editor (talk) 04:55, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose The relevant policy is Article titles which directs us to the topic-specific naming convention Naming conventions (Chinese) : The exception does not apply here because no convincing evidence has been presented that Jiankui He is more familiar than He Jiankui. In fact, the relative number of Google hits (41,500 vs 1,630,000) indicate that He Jiankui is strongly preferred in online sources by a factor of about 40 times. --RexxS (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input, I have already responded to this though and even used the same text you are using for the justification to switch it to the ordering Jiankui He. This is the ordering Jiankui He has the ordering of his name. Please see above bullet points. Also see Feng Zhang. CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:15, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This isn't a dialogue between you and the rest of the editors. Stop baracking those who disagree with you. You don't understand how to do a Google search. If you want to search on an exact term, you must surround it with quotation marks. --RexxS (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. I am absolutely sure my data is correct, and I am absolutely sure you don't know how to conduct a Google search for an exact term. You've simply made a search for either of the words "He" or "Jiankui" – and because "he" is such a common term, Google will ignore it. Your search just finds all the results containing the word "Jiankui". --RexxS (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose - FWIW - the correct Google Search terms include quotation marks as follows (at this time 12/09/2018, 04:10pm/et/usa): "He Jiankui" => 1,510,000 versus "Jiankui He" => 46,600 - a considerable difference of course - hope this helps in some way - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 21:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks but most google searches don't include quotation marks. I bet if you were to look up this person first time you wouldn't add them. Haha :PCRISPR Editor (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Please WP:AGF and/or WP:NPA => The point is different: to understand which phrase (""He Jiankui" or "Jiankui He") is more familiar; NOT to understand what key words are used in a Search, as you seem to be suggesting - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 22:11, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, well this one needs to. And stop denigrating other editors' abilities when you don't know what those abilities are. Most editors here know how to look up a name, but you have now made it abundantly clear that you don't. --RexxS (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * These are jokes to be clear. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CRISPR Editor (talk • contribs) 22:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * If you're trying to tell me your comments are "jokes", I'm not amused. Your posting here is tendentious and you could find yourself the subject of admin attention if you continue in that vein. There is a requirement for a certain level of competence to qualify as a Wikipedia editor, and you ought to be aware of that. --RexxS (talk) 23:44, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per RexxS and others. A SNOW close should be considered; the only person supporting this is the proposer, who claims to be making jokes as their argument supporting a move. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 02:18, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose as this could be clarified with the following markup and a title change is counterproductive based on what I would judge to be the more-commonly known ordering of his name: Crossman33 (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

More babies on the way from the same trial
China confirms scientist genetically engineered babies — and more are on the way. Rowan Forest (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Change the subtitle "Clinical trial" into "Illegal clinical trial"
Should the present subtitle "Clinical trial" be changed to "Illegal clinical trial" (or related wording)? Drbogdan (talk) 13:22, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

The specific "clinical trial" performed by He Jiankui for gene-editing babies was not a regular or "normal" one even only from its document procedure per se. No regular or normal clinical trial can be started without an authentic and qualified ethical review document approving it. According to the preliminary investigation report from official authority, He had made a fake or forged ethical review certificate for starting this "clinical trial". Even only from this base, regardless of other factors including gene-editing, this so called "clinical trial" is an illegal one. The subtitle of the relevant chapter shall be clearly shown as "Illegal clinical trial" to let readers be aware of its specific illegal nature at first glance, as it is very different from all other regular or normal ones even from legal document base. I made a change but reverted by. So here is for discussion regarding the edit change. --Lvhis (talk) 02:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments - and for noting a reference - changing the subtitle seems unnecessary, or, at least, premature - after all - there is no official word of illegality in the cited reference - not even the word illegal is mentioned in the reference - according to the reference, He's activities may have compromised "ethical principles and scientific integrity and breached relevant regulations of China", based on a preliminary investigation by some team? which is not specifically named and/or fully described - a truly official investigation (not one that's preliminary) may still be ongoing, or may not have yet started - in any case - hope this helps in some way - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 03:17, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. In the cited reference, "a fake ethical review certificate", "Those who are suspected of committing crimes", and so on were there. These are official word of illegality. If you don't think these were enough, let's go this way: whether the term "Clinical trial" can be used here. No the word clinical trial is used in the cited official report. When "a fake ethical review certificate" has been confirmed by the authoritative investigation, what He Jiankui performed cannot be called "clinical trial". For edit here we have two options: keep the term "clinical trial" but need to add an adjective to modify or restrict it, such as "Illegal clinical trial", or abandon the term "clinical trial" and use some words else, such as "Clinical experiment" or "Secret clinical experiment". The bottom line is: the current subtitle "Clinical trial" cannot stand there any more. --Lvhis (talk) 04:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your latest comments - the current original "Clinical trial" wording seems sufficiently neutral, objective, encyclopedic and preferred imo - at least until there are further official decisions and/or conclusions - from official authorities - and supported by WP:Reliable Sources - some wordings may be suggestive, and, as such, may be considered "WP:Original Research", which may not be acceptable on Wikipedia (per WP:NOR) - in any case - there are no such official decisions and/or conclusions at this time, only (apparently) a preliminary investigation - nonetheless - Comments by other Editors are Welcome - eventually, a WP:CONSENSUS among editors may be reached, and further editing in the main article may be further considered - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 05:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The "Clinical trial" wording is not neutral here, which seems only used by He Jiankui himself. This term cannot be used for this section's title. We need find some wording else. Please be cooperative. At least "experiment" wording is sourced and really neutral. That He's such experiment was performed in secret is also sourced. If other editors would like to join this discussion, that are of cause welcome.--Lvhis (talk) 06:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)


 * No. Probably unethical is more accurate that illegal - but I oppose both per WP:BLPCRIME - if and when he is convicted by a court of law (illegal) or an ethics board (unethical) - then either one of those could be used. If Jiankui is the only one using "Clinical trial" and this lends an un-neutral normative medical sciences spin - then experimentation (or experiments) would be more appropriate in my eyes. Icewhiz (talk) 14:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Fine with Gene-editing controversy as well (or other suggestions iif they arise) - we should avoid specifying wrong doing (criminal/ethical) in our voice, but this is certainly a controversy.Icewhiz (talk) 04:37, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Change to Human Experimentation - One issue I have with clinical trial, is that in the US the term is pretty exclusively used to refer to controlled drug trials, which this obviously was not. American readers might be confused into thinking this experiment was part of some type of larger drug trial, which it obviously wasn't. NickCT (talk) 20:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Gene-editing controversy seems unambiguous, neutral, precise and recognizable. Since the article on the trial is titled Lulu and Nana controversy, I believe that we can safely label this as a controversy. I don't like the proposed "human experimentation" above because that terminology isn't used on the article about the trial. I am also unconvinced by the argument that the current section heading confuses American readers – Wikipedia is written for a global audience, see e.g. the title of the article United States abortion-rights movement. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) w umbolo   ^^^  22:01, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I am okay with this one Gene-editing controversy, though I once liked Secret clinical experiment or Secret clinical project. BTW, thanks for inputs from Icewhiz, NickCT, and Wumbolo. Sounds the 1st step of consensus is being reached: not using "Clinical trial". If checking the definition of "Clinical trial" from wp page or other relevant sources, you will find this term means or implies the clinical experiment/project/trial has been approved by authentic and qualified ethical review certificate. This is not for He Jiankui's case, as he made a forged document. This may be why only he himself called his experiment "clinical trial" but other sources did not. If we use this term here, sounds like Wikipedia makes an endorsement for him. --Lvhis (talk) 00:41, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * For the record, I also support w umbolo  's suggestion. NickCT (talk) 01:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

✅ Yes - agree as well - seems there's sufficient agreement to change the subtitle to "He Jiankui" - RfC tag removed - Thanks to all those who contributed to the discussion - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:03, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

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