Talk:Heinkel He 277

Inclusion of a Heinkel factory drawing of the He 277 for Wikipedia
Dear Fellow Wikipedians:

The PIPE Here...the Manfred Griehl/Joachim Dressel authored book...


 * Griehl, Manfred and Dressel, Joachim. Heinkel He 177 - 277 - 274. Shrewsbury, UK: Airlife Publishing. ISBN 1-85310-364-0.

...that I have, on the series of Heinkel heavy bombers, that deals with the He 177, and details the more advanced He 274 (two built) and the aircraft project this page describes (He 277) has been a gold mine of information on the entire series that the 177 started...but I DO have a submission question...

...would a scanned-in Heinkel factory drawing of the He 277 (from my copy of the book) be allowed for use here at Wikipedia?

The involved drawing was carefully scanned to ONLY have content in it that would have been on the original Heinkel "Typenblatt" drawing, and NONE of the book's authored text (or other graphic material) is in the scan. Where the drawing was Heinkel property during the war, but could, curiously still be considered "copyrighted material" of the current EADS corporate entity? This is because as Heinkel was absorbed, via a series of corporate mergers through the last half of the 20th century, into the EADS European defense aerospace conglomerate, that World War II Heinkel drawing could still be considered EADS property by some means.

Also, that page here at Wikipedia on what constitutes what can be considered "public domain" concerning German WW II images (it's the first entry under the "Example cases" subheading there) affect the ability to have up at Wikipedia for a graphic image, anything that would have originally been the property of a now-nonexistent German aviation corporation from 65 years ago, even one whose corporate identity is now part of EADS?

I've also got two other scans of this type from the same book, which show the alternative cockpit design of the He 177B development of the Greif, as well as a factory three view of the He 177B V101 aircraft, both scanned and edited to have NOTHING in them but what the Heinkel factory's drafters would have drawn themselves. These are unique images, and might possibly also be usable, but could I be running into that "possible EADS ownership of old Heinkel WW II aircraft drawings" roadblock with those, too???

I'd like a little help here...would those scans, in any possible way, be allowable for documentation for both the He 177 and 277 pages here at Wikipedia?

Thanks in advance,

The PIPE (talk) 00:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Detail..."too much"?
Far too much detail and hyperbolae for a non notable design project that didnot spawn a complete aircraft.--Petebutt (talk) 10:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Dear Petebutt:

The PIPE Here...what follows is a letter sent out by yours truly to one Mr. S.G. early in 2017, who I think might be from "down under" someplace, either Australia or New Zealand, who's had very little experience about reading anything concerning the well-documented history from the Griehl/Dressel volume on the entire history of the Heinkel He 177 "family" of aircraft, where the design for the He 277 originated from, before the Heinkel firm seized on making their February 1943-initiated 8-277 airframe designation their own corporate entry in the Amerika Bomber design competition. Mr S.G.'s been one of the aviation enthusiasts who's mostly been affected by the "He 177B versus He 277 controversy" section of this article, and has repeatedly tried to assert to me that "actual He 177A airframes" were converted/redesignated as "He 277s", when documentation to the contrary exists — for virtually EVERY SINGLE ONE of the individual He 177 airframes he mentioned — within the pages of the Griehl/Dressel volume.

Here's the text of the letter I sent him, to let him know exactly which aircraft he quoted really ended up, per the Griehl/Dressel volume:

Firstly, S.G's assertions that he sent to me: "The three He 177B were NN+QQ (first prototype He 177B) W.Nr.535550, GA+QQ former He 177 A-08 (He 277 W.Nr.23). Only one of the He 177B ever became an He 277. The He 277 was developed as a kitset modification that could be applied to existing He 177. However a number of He 177 A-6 prototypes were converted at E-2 Rechlin workshops as production prototypes and issued Stkz: GA+QQ Heinkel He 277 V9 (delivered to Eprobungstelle Reichlin); GA+QR Heinkel He 277 V10 (delivered to Eprobungstelle Reichlin); GA+QM Heinkel He 277 V26 (delivered to Eprobungstelle Reichlin); GA+QX Heinkel He 277 V18 (delivered to Eprobungstelle Reichlin). These He 277 were not produced by Hienkel Schwechat."

The following response to Mr S.G. is from yours truly, based on the Griehl-Dressel listings:

"ACTUAL Listings of He 177B quartet of prototypes and purported "He 277" airframes quoted by S.G., with all verifications from the pages (where mentioned in this reply) and appendices of the Manfred Griehl/Joachim Dressel book ISBN 1-85310-364-0, appendices existing on pages 220-241:

Format of: RLM/Luftwaffe individual a/c type designator, serial number/Werknummer, alphabetic Stammkennzeichen (StmKz) factory a/c ID, role of aircraft/eventual fate.

He 177B Prototype Airframe notes, from Griehl/Dressel book's pgs. 162-163, 165-167 & 226:

He 177 V101: Serial number 535 550, NN+QQ, an A-3 airframe rebuilt to B-5 standard with four separate DB 603-dedicated Heinkel/Kraftei He 219 style nacelles/annular radiators, intended for fitment (but never fitted) with "drag rudders" on stab for engine-out testing as shown on Heinkel engineering drawing - the He 177 V101 was almost certainly the four-engined He 177B-series prototype found wrecked at Cheb, Czech Republic in May 1945 (fuselage blown to tiny bits), only one surviving photo of it intact, on a foggy German airfield from a near nose-on attitude (the photo's vantage point was offset to airframe's starboard side). Said to have been allegedly fitted with a quartet of Jumo 222s (which in reality had a trio of exhaust stack sets per nacelle [upper flanks P/S and bottom-center] as with Ju 288s powered with them), but as the Cheb photos show He 219-pattern Kraftei nacelles ONLY, with twin exhaust stack sets fitted per nacelle as with He 219, and hinged upper-flank nacelle panels identical in outline to those on an He 219 Kraftei nacelle. The "Jumo 222 refit" supposition remains unproven, and likely an incorrect assumption. The He 177 V101 wreck at Cheb had four-blade props fitted, as with early He 219 V1-V5 and Fw 190C prototypes powered with DB 603s.

He 177 V102: Serial number 00 0023, GA+QQ, the eighth 177A service test airframe (He 177A-08 or He 177 V9), rebuilt as the V101 was (but HAD to include the 1.6 meter lengthening of the rear fuselage first mandated for A-3s onward in the initial refit) for quartet of Heinkel He 219/Kraftei DB 603s, but with He 219-inspired twin tail unit (only one so equipped); first to fly on four DB 603s on December 20, 1943, after fitment of twin-tail unit, stated "as scrapped" after February 1945, no surviving photos.

He 177 V103: Serial number 550 036, KM+TL, an A-5 that was the first and only aircraft from the "quartet of Heinkel He 219/Kraftei DB 603"-engined He 177B prototype airframes whose rear fuselage was completely rebuilt to use the Borsig hydraulically-driven Hecklafette HL 131V quadmount tail turret (not completely like the He 177 V32 through V34 trio of test airframes actually used for the Borsig quadmount turret tests), had single vertical tail only as V101 did, blown to pieces on July 8th, 1944 by USAAF 15th Air Force/55th Bomb Wing B-17 raid on Heinkel-Süd/Vienna suburb factory airfield at Zwölfaxing.

He 177 V104: Serial number 550 005, KM+TE, an A-5 meant to be the "pattern aircraft" for the Arado Flugzeugwerke-built He 177B-5 airframe series production project meant to have a twin-tail empennage as V102 had, meant to start by November 1944 - conversion never completed, "in-progress" airframe blown apart in same July 1944 American air raid in Zwölfaxing that wrecked the V103.

True facts about the aircraft alleged by Mr. S.G. to have been purportedly rebuilt as "He 277s", when in reality this never happened: No He 177A-6 production aircraft were ever completed, as pre-production work on the type was shelved after its initiation in January 1943, with engineering work on both the He 177A-5 and B-series taking over during 1943 causing the A-6's shelving (G/D book pg. 106), so no A-6s were available for the purported "He 277" conversions...the alleged aircraft's corrected identities are documented using same format as before, most documentation coming from Griehl/Dressel book's appendix page 232...

Purported "He 277V9" (only a trio of He 277 prototypes were ever called for by the RLM in the first place, expected to be completed by May/June 1943 timeframe) was actually the aforementioned He 177 V103...mention of requested trio of prototypes [and ten further A-0 service test airframes, also never-built] for 8-277 category airframes mentioned on Griehl/Dressel book's pg.104.

Purported "He 277V10" was actually the He 177 V10, WkNr 00 0024, StmKz GA+QR, started out as the He 177A-09 service test series airframe, used for testing of the He 177A-4's high altitude pressurized cockpit, remained with DB 606 "welded-together engines" for power, last metioned on June 20, 1944, stated as "cannibalized" for parts. The He 177 V11 airframe, otherwise identical to the V10 but with s/n of 00 0025 and StmKz code of GA+QS, was used for flying the A-4 format pressurized test cockpit to 9.2 km altitude on August 9, 1943. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pg. 179) These two aircraft are also mentioned in the Heinkel He 274 article here at Wikipedia.

Purported "He 277V26" was actually the He 177A-04 service test airframe, WkNr 00 0019, StmKz GA+QM, remained with DB 606 "welded-together engines" for power, last officially mentioned on April 24, 1943 with the prototype designation V26 at Rechlin with "improved aerial torpedo installation", victim of aircrash. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pgs. 226 & 232)

Purported "He 277V18" was actually the He 177A-015 service test airframe, WkNr 00 0030, StmKz GA+QX, last mentioned on June 28, 1943 as the He 177 V18 prototype airframe for the He 177A-1/U2 Zerstörer version, using twin MK 101 30mm flexible-mount autocannon at front of dramatically forward-extended Bola for anti-ship/close support attack, solely powered with DB 606 "welded-together engines", fate otherwise unknown past last official mention. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pg. 110)

No known documentation exists for the anomalous, Heinkel He 219/Kraftei DB 603 engined He 177B prototype airframe bearing the Stammkennzeichen "NE+OD" on the only other surviving photo (in this one, the aircraft is seen from its starboard side, almost side-on) of an intact, four-engined He 177B prototype, as fragmentary evidence exists for the "NE+Ox" code block being used for He 177A-3 airframes, of an unknown number.

The actual He 277 Amerika Bomber project designs, from February 1943 onward (that February 1943 date from G/D book pg. 179) the Amerika Bomber proposal itself pre-dated the He 277's latest verifiable mention date by some ten months, in April 1942. Despite proposal sideviews and 3-views for inline inverted-V12 planned formats from the Heinkel engineering departments, the He 277 Amerika Bomber design was only meant to be powered by a quartet of BMW 801E radials with four-meter diameter, three-bladed propellers, as mentioned on pg. 196 of the Griehl/Dressel book. The 3-view on page 159 of the book is mis-marked as an "He 177B-5", but with this 3-view having a quartet of BMW 801 unitized engines and the 7 m x 1.75m bomb bay as shown on pg. 184 of the G/D book of a May 12, 1943-dated bomb loadout chart, meant specifically for the He 277.

I still canNOT for the life of me, figure out how the "He 177B/He 277 oft-told story" definitively got started, but thanks to the Griehl/Dressel book, nearly all of it has become much clearer due to its publishing, just as the 20th century's end approached.

The PIPE (talk) 21:38, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

"zusammengeschweißte Motoren"
This is not derisive in itself, but a rather technical statement. It can only be derisive with a derisive intonation or context. Lastdingo (talk) 22:54, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

It WAS Hermann Goering who said that to "Poor Edgar" on August 13, 1942...also check the Wikiquote page on ol' "Fat Hermann", it's there, too!

The PIPE (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

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