Talk:Heinrich Harrer

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...... the german page is much clearer written and includes more details (also the headings and timeline suits probably better). Someone sould translate it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.186.126.215 (talk) 23:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

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Was he really a Nazi?

These imply so:
 * Seven Years in Tibet (film)
 * THE PERSONALIZED SUNDIAL (SA in '33, party & SS in '38)


 * Yes, he was really a nazi and this article seems to whitewash that fact. The fact is he supported nazism in 1933 before the nazis came to Austria, and nazism was infact illegal there at the time. see http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6173/harrnazi.htm --Mista-X 22:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really whitewash, more point out the fact that just because he was a member of the Nazi Party doesn't necessarily make him a bad person. He has no record of war crimes (for obvious reasons) and even Simon Wiesenthal said that Harrer had a clean record. It is sad to see so many articles focus on his short involvement with the Nazi Party and the Schutzstaffel when he spent the majority of his life contributing to the many different races of mankind.
 * Then why does the US deport former Nazi members when their associations become known? His voluntary Nazi involvement is a huge tarnish on the man's character and credibility and should be referenced in any article regarding this man. --Naus (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wisenthal's career was devoted to seeing Nazis punished for war crimes. That doesn't explain why Harrer refused an offer of repatriation in 1943 by British camp authorities in exchange for renouncing Hitler and Nazism and instead decided to escape and rejoin the war effort.01:21, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * @User:Dellant: Thank you for signing your posts. It seems that your recent edits are violating WP:REF: I could not find any reference to Himmler's phone call in the NYT article (that you have added as a reference in your recent edit). Same issue with "Repatriation of Austrian subjects from India to Germany, Public and Judicial Department Records".--Pseudois (talk) 15:05, 2 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The article I referenced clearly mentioned Himmler as the source of the invitation to Harrer to join the 1939 expedition. The National Archives file mentions the offer of freedom to Austrian subjects who renounced Nazism that Harrer refused.  Moreover, Harrer himself was forced to later admit that he had been offered his freedom, but had declined it.  I don't know why you insist on protecting Harrer from his own history; he would have admitted it freely.Dellant (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * @User:Dellant Let me be clear: I am not "protecting Harrer from his own history", a person I hold in very low estime for his past affiliation with the nazi regime and for not having disclosed spontaneously his past. However, facts remain that the refences you have given in your recent edits say nothing about, e.g., the phone call from Himmler or the fact that Harrer refused to denounce either Hitler or Nazism. It is not acceptable in Wikipedia to misuse references in the way you have done. If I have missed something in your references, please provide an exact quote and I would be more than happy to apologize for my accusation that you are misuing these two sources. Otherwise I will just maintain them. Thank you,--Pseudois (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Assume good faith. It's obvious that you haven't reviewed the archival file material on Harrer, nor his comments admitting he was offered his freedom at Dehra Dun.  You have no basis for your accusations.  If I can find a secondary source for primary research or Harrer's own admissions, I will provide it.  Until then, reader beware - this IS a whitewashed bio.Dellant (talk) 00:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

What Olympic sport?
What was the sport he represented in the 1936 Olympics?? JackofOz 05:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Re Olympic ski champion:
 * Some sources might be relying on the film's version:
 * Seven Years in Tibet
 * Ask Audrey - previous questions answered ("Alas, Harrer never even competed at the Olympics, far less won a medal. Another case of Hollywood not letting the facts get in the way of a good story!")
 * I've tried to find sources about Olympics outside the context of the film. --Jerzy(t) 05:44, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC))
 * The Strange Journey of Heinrich Harrer & Heinrich Harrer Biography & Lost Lhasa: Heinrich Harrer's Tibet (Eiger or mtneering mentioned as source of fame, no mention of Olympics)
 * Authors / Heinrich Harrer ("His skiing prowess won him a place in the 1936 Austrian Olympic team")
 * Seven Years In Tibet - Heinrich Harrer ("Olympic ski champion")
 * Eiger live: Eiger-Nordwand-Durchsteigung ("...he made his reputation initially as a mountaineer and skier, being selected for the Austrian Olympic team in 1936.")
 * Travelers' Tales ("Olympic skiing champion")
 * At De:Diskussion:Heinrich Harrer, i've attempted a translation of part of their article, & requested review of it by others more bilingual than i. The results would make better source material than my attempt. (But i note that it does not support his winning any Olympic medal.) --Jerzy(t) 05:44, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)

BTW, re medal:
 * Seven Years in Tibet (film)
 * Seven Years in Tibet (Superbit Collection) (1997) ("Heinrich Harrer: That's the Olympic gold medal. Not important." Short on context but suggestive.)
 * Independent News ('Believing that only German climbers could succeed on the Eigerwand, Hitler had promised Olympic medals to the "conquerors".') The olympic-medal talk in the movie and elsewhere may reflect either entering into the spirit of Hitler's "promise", or a gullible assessment of that promise's realizibility. --Jerzy(t) 05:44, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)


 * The International Olympic Committees' database at http://www.olympic.org/ shows that nobody named Harrer has ever won an Olympic medal. -- Arwel 11:29, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My copy of ''The White Spider' (in English translation) says on the frontispiece that he was in the 1936 Austrian Olympic Ski Team. I think that the article is wrong to says that he was in the Berlin olympics. Berlin for skiing??? A google places the winter olympics of 1936 in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in Bavaria.--JBellis 21:21, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, for the Garmisch-Partenkirchen Winter Olympics in 1936, the IOC database shows the following team sports results:
 * 4-man bobsleigh: G: Switzerland S: Switzerland  B: GB
 * 2-man bobsleigh: G: USA S: Switzerland  B: USA
 * 4x10km cross-country ski-ing: G: Finland S: Norway  B: Sweden
 * Mixed pairs figure skating: G: Germany (Baier & Herber) S: Austria (Pausin & Pausin)  B: Hungary (Rotter & Szollas)
 * Ice hockey: G: GB S: Canada  B: USA
 * Individual sports results:
 * Alpine ski-ing, mens' combined: G: Pfnür (GER), S: Lantschner (GER), B: Allais (FRA)
 * Alpine ski-ing, womens' combined: G: Cranz (GER), S: Grasegger (GER), B: Schou-Nilsen (NOR)
 * 18km cross-country ski-ing: G: Larsson (SWE), S: Hagen (NOR),  B: Niemi (FIN)
 * 50km cross-country ski-ing: G: Wiklund (SWE), S: Wikström (SWE),  B: Englund (SWE)
 * Mens' figure skating: G: Schäfer (AUT), S: Baier (GER),  B: Kaspar (AUT)
 * Womens' figure skating: G: Henje (NOR), S: Colledge (GB), B: Hulten (SWE)
 * Nordic combined ski-ing: G: Hagen (NOR), S: Hoffsbakken (NOR), B: Brodahl (NOR)
 * K90 (70m) ski jump: G: Ruud (NOR),  S: Eriksson (SWE),  B: Andersen (NOR)
 * 10,000m speed skating: G: Ballangrud (NOR), S: Wasenius (FIN), Stiepl (AUT)
 * 1500m speed skating: G: Mathisen (NOR), S: Ballangrud (NOR),  B: Wasenius (FIN)
 * 5000m speed skating: G: Ballangrud (NOR), S: Wasenius (FIN), B: Ojala (FIN)
 * 500m speed skating: G: Ballangrud (NOR), S: Krog (NOR),  B: Freisinger (USA)


 * So that's pretty conclusive then, no 1936 Winter Olympics medals for Harrer.. -- Arwel 22:18, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks folks, belatedly. This seemed to have slipped off my watchlist, and I've only just caught up with all that fabulous research that my question triggered off.   I've now made an edit to the main article denying that he won any medals.  Better to have the matter out there explicitly than leave question marks in the minds of readers who have read elsewhere that he was a medal winner.  JackofOz 06:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

News on this: according to his own book "Heinrich Harrer: Mein Leben" (engl. "My life"; ISBN 3548364985 (in German)) he was part of the Austrian Skiing team and was ment to participate in the downhill and slalom tournaments of the 1936 olympiad. Only on the day before the olympiad, the Austrian (just as the Swiss) Skiing Team decided to boycott the Olympiad. Therefore, Harrer never actively participated in a olympic competition. This is also approved by http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/past/index_uk.asp?OLGT=2&OLGY=1936 ("Incensed, the Austrian and Swiss skiers boycotted the events.")

This should be added to the article; I would like to wait for the discussion in the german article to approve this news before editing the article though. -- Wirthi 16:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This fact was discussed on the article's discussion page in the german wikipedia and there were no major opposers. So i entered the fact here, too. --Wirthi 20:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Unintegrated Source Material, Removed from Article
According to http://www.harrerportfolio.com/HarrerBio.html "Harrer has received numerous honors, including the Gold Humboldt Medal and the Explorers Club Medal for his many expeditions and explorations. He has written over 20 books and received credit on over 40 film productions. His body of work spans five decades of exploration over six continents. In addition, Heinrich Harrer has become widely known as an outspoken advocate of human rights". Also of note, "Heinrich Harrer and the exiled Dalai Lama remain steadfast friends". [Moved here by Jerzy(t) 05:44, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)]

Fair use rationale for Image:SevenYearsInTibet cover.jpg
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BetacommandBot 05:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

misleading sentence
Since he was out of Germany during most of the war, he was not involved in any illegal actions is the wording of one sentence. I find this sentence misleading. First: ``illegal action`` probably was not intended to mean illegal in the legalistic sense (reword it). Second: ``since he was out of Germany``?? So what? --Ben T/C 12:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Funny that he was 100% a member of SS and it wasn't a "compulsory" thing for all germans, either was it a "chess players sunday club" but because he met dalai lama you seem to only say about his "involvement" like if he wasn't nazi at all. He was in SS = he was 100% Nazi and Adolf were proud of him and he was 100% aware of the fact what SS does with people, else he would be retarded and couldn't join at all.

So pls stop dividing people who were in SS as good ones and bad ones. SS wasn't obligatory to join and ppl were 100% aware of the work they are getting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.24.170.223 (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

'Where' Does one put a comment?
This has to be one of the most poorly organized Discussion pages that I've seen. The primary page is quite a contrast to the German language page. You guys clearly aren't climbers. The US deports the Nazis typically involved in killing when found. Harrer wasn't in Europe when he was picked up (very minor). Such vitriol. 143.232.210.46 (talk) 23:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Round Up the Commies
By the start of the war, when Harrer was on a climbing exhibition in British India, the Soviets had already exterminated tens of millions and the Nazis had only killed a few thousand. So all  current and former CP members (beginning about 1932) MUST HAVE KNOWN of the mass-killings of the Soviet  regime. They gave-at the very least- political support to them, and therefore are far more "guilty" then Harrer-who never even got the chance to engage in perfectly lawful killing in combat.

No. I don't want the Commies rounded up, I just want the less sane Nazi-obsessives to start taking their meds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.10.12.117 (talk) 03:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

nazi
Harrer as a younger man was a fanatic national socialist, illegal street fighter in Austria for Hitlers stormtroopers since 1933 and as an author of world bestsellers he has never reflected over his involvement. One of his friend was Bruno Beger, SS-war criminal and involved of killing 86 people from the Auschwitz concentration camp. Harrer himself has not killed anybody - but he never discussed his involvement with the Nazis. Like many sportsmen - even todays - he never was able to take over responsibility for social and historical questions. The portray down here is more than whitewashing. If you know details out of his SS-record (National Archives, Washington DC) its nearly funny, how Harrer is described down here. One more fact that wikipedia never will be a source of checked information. Its a propaganda platform in cases like Harrer and others.

Please read the huge article in Vanity Fair from 1997. Down here: —Preceding unsigned comment added by NoVomit (talk • contribs) 07:31, January 7, 2009

Membership of the Party

This article implies that he had to join the NSDAP to join the SS. Absolute nonsense. Equally, membership of the SA does not automatically imply Party membership...yes many were, but it was not a given fact.

Taff —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.216.220.36 (talk) 21:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

From Dehradun into Tibet
Isn't it ridiculous that the article has a whole paragraph for the three weeks Harrer needed to get to the border of Tibet but just one sentence for the 20 months it took him to cross Tibet and reach Lhasa?

And it's all wrong anyway. As told in "7 Years", it was 29 April 1944 after lunch when a group of seven, two disguised as British officers and the others as native Indians, walked out of the camp. Rolf Magener and Heins von Have thought that being fluent in English they had a chance to cross India and reach the "Burma front". The others were Harrer, Aufschnaiter, the Salzburger Bruno Treipel and the Berliners Hans Kopp and Sattler. None of these considered Goa at that time; they all headed for the closest border to Tibet. Via Tibet they too hoped to reach the Japanese in Burma.

In "7 Years" there is no mention of Mussoorie and Landour and of fording the Aglar at Thatyur, only that in the first night Harrer had to wade through the Aglar no less than fourty times. Nor is Deolsari mentioned, nor Harsil, nor Bhaironghati. In Nelang on 10 May Sattler is sick and decides to report to the authorities. Having entered Tibet on 17 May the remaining four split into two groups: Harrer and Kopp, Aufschnaiter and Treipel. On 17 June Treipel is so exhausted that he buys himself a horse and rides back to the lowlands. Several months later, when the remaining three are still without visa for Tibet, Kopp gives up too and leaves to Nepal (where he is within few days handed over to the British). --Vsop.de (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

sensational ascent of Eiger North Face
July 26, 1938 CLIMBERS CONQUER DREAD EIGER PEAK; Four, Given Up for Lost in Fury of Snowstorm, Reach Top
 * Eigerwand--"the wall of the ogr"--has been no conquered. Two Austrians, Harrer and Fritz ist Kasparek, and two Germans, Voerg and Heckmaier, finished scaling the 6,300-foot precipitous rock wall during yesterday's blinding snowstorm that hid them from view and caused Swiss guides to give them up for lost. They reached Eiger glacier station at nightfall. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]
 * http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B15F73B5C1B7A93C4AB178CD85F4C8385F9&scp=1&sq=eiger%201938&st=cse

sensational
 * http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_for_the_record/swiss_records/Conqueror_of_Eiger_North_Face_dies.html?cid=992014

a world sensation, acclaimed in international newspapers and on radio
 * http://www.jungfrau.ch/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-46/278_read-1332//

"Heckmeir, Vörg, Kasparek and Harrer made the first ascent of the Eiger North Face from 21 to 24 July 1938. It was a glorious moment in the history of mountaineering and a great sensation, since several climbers had previously perished on the Face."
 * The Big Walls: From the North Face of the Eiger to the South Face of Dhaulagirl by Reinhold Messner (Hardcover - Oct. 2001) p. 105

long considered Europe's greatest mountaineering challenge, headlines, fame
 * http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/07/entertainment/main1185582.shtml

one of the finest moments of alpine mountaineering, heroes
 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1482809/Anderl-Heckmair.html

the Eiger triumph
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/10/obituaries/10harrer.html?scp=3&sq=eiger%201938&st=cse

--Vsop.de (talk) 22:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

See also Eiger:
 * 1934: First attempt on the north face by Willy Beck, Kurt Löwinger and Georg Löwinger reaching 2,900 m.
 * 1935: First attempt on north face by the Germans Karl Mehringer and Max Sedlmeyer. They froze to death at 3,300 m, a place now known as "Death Bivouac".
 * 1936: Four Austrian and German climbers, Andreas Hinterstoisser, Toni Kurz, Willy Angerer and Edi Rainer, died on the north face in severe weather conditions during a retreat from Death Bivouac.
 * 1938: Alpine Journal editor Edward Lisle Strutt calls the north face 'an obsession for the mentally deranged' and 'the most imbecile variant since mountaineering first began'.
 * 1938: First ascent of north face by Anderl Heckmair, Heinrich Harrer, Fritz Kasparek and Ludwig Vörg, achieved in three days. --Vsop.de (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, so how can we say all of these things in an NPOV way? "Sensational" is not NPOV, saying he was the first climber to scale a certain mountain is. Doc Quintana (talk) 23:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Never mind, you put it in quotation marks, that's fine with me if it's a quote. Doc Quintana (talk) 23:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Heinrich Harrer: Champion Golfer?
In the Wiki page devoted to Heinrich Harrer it states that in his later years he was a champion golfer. Are there any sources that document his golfing achievements? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanuman2545 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Heinrich Harrer's Family
There is very little mentioned about Heinrich's family. It appears that he had been married three times and does have a son named Peter. Anyone have some more info about his family life and his son Peter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanuman2545 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Also there is the matter of his parents. The article says that he "was born to a postal worker."  At the very least there must have been two postal workers involved.  Maybe one was not a postal worker at all. If his father was a mailman and his mother was a hausfrau this should be clearly indicated. OldMonkeyPuzzle (talk) 02:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Beyond Seven Years in Tibet
This is one of his last books and includes a much fuller account of his life than Seven Years in Tibet. His Nazi past had remained little known for years but came out during the controversy over the film of Seven Years in Tibet. --GwydionM (talk) 17:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

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Harrer in Dehra Dun
My Father was one of the internees in the Camp Dehra Dun in (then British)India. The camp was not for prisoners of war, but civil men, like business men, employees of international companies, from merchant ships and the like. My father was working for the shoe company Bata in Bandung,Java. In the 40th still Nederlands Indie (now Indonesia) Together with other German and Austrian men he was brought by ship to British India and on to the camp Dehra Dun. The men were treated well by the British and if the internees gave their word (parole) they were free to take tours into the mountains but promise to be back in the evening. My father did so, and most of the men did so. But Heinrich Harrer did not give parole, therefore he and others were locked up.Probable he was planning to go to Tibet and therefore did not want to lie to the British. Harrer and Abfalter were mountaineers partaking in the epedition to the Nanga Parbat, as they were held up ba the war. Nobody asked any one on their political views. The British were not interested whether any one of the 2000 men were members of any party, The British only were interested if they can trust them. My father was brought home to Europe by ship and many gifts (7 cases full of warm blanckets and clothings) The blanckets were of such high quality that we used then at home for 25 years. Elisabeth Vondrous — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8388:A84:8E80:8126:1861:C781:F7A0 (talk) 11:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)