Talk:Hog Island sheep

Merge
Hog Island Sheep is a duplicate topic with unreferenced material until yesterday. I suggest that whether that topic is redirected here or that anything useful is merged here to Hog Island sheep. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 16:05, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What exactly would be the pros/cons of merging that article into this one vs. this one into that one? Hog Island sheep does have already referenced material, but in an ideal situation in the long run, the article that ends up being the main one has far more references and information than either of the articles currently do. Which capitalization format is more acceptable? I had begun work on Hog Island Sheep because that capitalization scheme appeared to make more sense to me and I assumed the other one would just be a redirect. Is having each word capitalized ("title case") acceptable, or should only the first word be capitalized (sentence case)? Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 00:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The pro of merging to Hog Island sheep from Hog Island Sheep is that given none of the material was reference until recently by you the page can simply be changed to a redirect(assuming you agree). The con of merging Hog Island sheep into Hog Island Sheep is that because some of it is referenced it can't just be removed (see WP:PRESERVE) and thus it would be required to merged (WP:MERGETEXT) due to copyright licensing requirement., it's a little more effort to merge rather the redirect, but no big deal either way. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 14:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding the capitialisation of the article wording. So far as I can tell there is no firm standard for this article, two guidelines to check are WP:FNAME(covering fauna) and WP:CAPS(covering everything). WP:CAPS recommends lowercase except for proper nouns; I'm assuming 'Hog Island' is a real place and thus that part would be a proper noun. The 'sheep' or 'Sheep' is not covered in WP:FNAME, it's not a species, nor a group of species,nor is there a WikiProject covering sheep to refer to, so basically it's not covered. It could be changed at any stage anyway if there is a consensus for either form of capitailization. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 14:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, in the absence of a definitive convention for the capitalization of sheep breeds, and Hog Island Sheep being not a species but a breed, it seems to me that we would follow whatever convention could be found to emerge from the common usage of breed names; in the absence of that, I would simply say that as both words of Hog Island are capitalized, I would find it more æsthetically agreeable to capitalize Sheep as well, making it look more consistent or visually consonant. I am, however, biased as Hog Island Sheep is the article on which I began working—though my efforts thus far have been no more than a drop in what I hope shall become quite a large bucket. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 16:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The most closely related Featured Articles about agricultural animal breeds are of horse breeds, and all have "horse" not capitalized. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 21:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * What are your thought on merging one of the articles to the other? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 21:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The horse articles I saw make me think that Hog Island Sheep should be merged into Hog Island sheep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Der Elbenkoenig (talk • contribs) 00:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Template/Format
As it appears to me that there are no existing Featured articles on sheep breeds, the next best thing (FAs on breeds of agricultural/related animals) I could find was horse breed FAs: Andalusian horse, Icelandic horse, and Marwari horse. From these I gleaned the section headings "breed characteristics", "history", and "uses" (though the horse breed articles to not all uniformly use these).

These articles also help to answer the question of case (Hog Island Sheep vs. Hog Island sheep) as the horse articles are all titled in sentence case, with horse non-capitalized. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 21:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No sheep breed, but Sheep is a featured article. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Some good articles on sheep breeds. Jacob (sheep), Herdwick. The Jacob article makes me wonder if the breed is called Hog Island rather then Hog Island sheep and thus the article would be Hog Island (sheep)? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 22:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The sources I've seen refer to the breed as the Hog Island sheep, named for the location of Hog Island, Virginia. I was looking at the horse articles because unlike Sheep, they are articles on specific breeds of domesticated animals. I will look at the sheep breed GAs for further ideas on how to build the article. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 00:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The name is definitly Hog Island sheep, not just hog island. So the article should be titled Hog Island sheep. I have no preference on whether the s in sheep is capatalized or not.Beefcake6412 (talk) 18:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

(undent) As I posted on Steven Walling's page, I'm definitely willing to help as well, if you need an extra set of eyes. I did a large portion of the work on the horse breed articles mentioned above, so have a bit of experience with breed GAs/FAs. There have been several GA/FA articles on horse breeds with feral populations that might make good templates for this article. See Banker horse (written by a classmate of yours from a couple of years ago, I believe), Carolina Marsh Tacky, Kaimanawa horse, Chincoteague Pony and Eriskay Pony. For another livestock breed FA, see Aylesbury duck, although that article places a lot of focus on the industrial/farming aspects of the duck, which I don't think you'll find the sourcing for with this breed. Other poultry GAs include Buckeye (chicken), Sebright (chicken) and Silkie. Check through these (and the other sheep and horse articles mentioned above) for ideas on sectioning, formatting, references, etc. More thoughts later on potential references. Dana boomer (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It seems that the sections that always pop up on those are History and Characteristics, which I've started; The remaining sections I think would end up being one about conservation efforts/research/human intervention and perhaps their uses (which is more or less the opposite of conservation). Are there any other categories of knowledge that might be specific to a feral sheep that I haven't thought of? Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 15:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A conservation section is a good idea with a breed like this that has had a lot of conservation work done. See Carolina Marsh Tacky for an example of an article with this section. A uses section is also good, as long as there is enough information to make a solid section. Otherwise, if there are just a couple of sentences, it might be better to add it into either the history or characteristics section (wherever it fits better), as is done in a lot of the smaller breed GAs. I can't think of anything else at the moment. Sometimes things evolve as more source material is found, though! Dana boomer (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

National Animal Germplasm Program
NAGP does not have its own article, but it does have a section within the article of the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy, so when I wrote the bit mentioning it I linked to that section. I had considered redlinking it, but I reasoned that since it was a program that was a part of the operation of the ALBC, it made sense that it didn't need its own article (there isn't likely much to say about it other than they collect animal sperm for posterity) and therefore doesn't need to be redlinked. Is there some sort of policy/rule of thumb regarding topics that should be linked, but don't have existing articles? I think for readers of this article, the link should be there so people can get a quick look-over of that the NAGP is and then come back to Hog Island sheep. Am I wrong? Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 02:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Wait, my understanding is that the NAGP is a USDA program, not a part of the ALBC? I think that would mean it's pretty notable, and it would be confusing to link to a section of the ALBC article. In any case, redlinks are desirable for notable subjects, because we want people to realize Wikipedia is incomplete and needs their help to be comprehensive. It's the wiki way. Steven Walling &bull; talk   05:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the NAGP is a USDA program (see the main page here), they just do a lot of work in conjunction with the ALBC. I agree with Steven that linking the ALBC article would be confusing... At some point, an article needs to be created for the NAGP, but for now a red link is fine. Dana boomer (talk) 12:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My mistake, The NAGP is indeed a USDA program and is reasonably deserving of its own article. However, my biology teacher doesn't think redlinks are good to have in articles, so I suppose I'll create the article. Would it be appropriate to create the article as a stub with just a couple of sentences (citing a reliable source, of course)? Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 16:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Teacher Review

 * Hog Island sheep are a breed of sheep that was developed from feral animals on Virginia's Hog Island beginning in the 17th century. I'm unclear on whether the breed specifically arose in the 1600's from pre-existing feral sheep or whether the breed is the outcome of natural selection after they were abandoned in the 30's and 40's?
 * The latter, if I have read the resources correctly. I did try to clarify. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 04:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the answer seems to be both: there were feral sheep from Shipwrecks in the area, these sheep were used by the Hog Islanders, and then they were left behind and became feral again. The breed seems to be what we call them now, not what they were at the time. I would think "Hog Island sheep" are sheep that are descended from the sheep on Hog Island. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 16:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The Hog Island sheep is a feral breed, descended from sheep that were abandoned on Hog Island in the 1930s and 1940s. Are they presently feral? Is feral a term that describes a breed or is it the conditions in which they live? A hog island sheep kept on a farm - is it a feral breed?
 * It is believed that the breed was descended from the Merino breed, among others. I would elaborate on the Merino breed so that a reader has some insights into what they are. Its a very short article, a little expansion would not hurt. Also "among others" - do they not rate mentioning?
 * One source said the sheep were "probably Spanish Merinos", another that they "had a lot of Merino blood"... I tried to reconcile the two. Should I just say that the original sheep were Merino? Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 15:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * ... are considered important for preservation because of their historical significance and because of the traits they have that modern sheep might lack..., Other than being abandoned by their owners - to fend for themselves, did they play any role in history. I keep waiting for a historical moment. Do they represent the phenotypic characteristics of sheep during that time? If so, what are the specifics.
 * As far as I know, they are similar to sheep of that time, which is why they are used in exhibits... I think the similarities are their small size and the texture of their wool, but I'm not quite positive about that and I'd have to find a RS or re-read one of my references. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 04:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * ...like their hardiness and reproductive efficiency. In what way are the hardy - cold tolerant - heat tolerant - need little food - without natural predators or parasites to place selective pressures, its seems that they would be less "hardy". Reproductive efficiency... copulate in 15 seconds are less - extra large broods - low infant mortality rate --- what makes them efficient?
 * The Swiss Village Foundation article on the sheep mentions "Easy lambing", which I don't really understand the concept of myself. Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 04:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hardiness generally means an ability for the breed to still be productive in bad weather, on less than perfect grazing et cetera. Easy lambing means low infant mortality and less need for shepherds to assist in birthing twins and so on. Steven Walling &bull; talk   05:34, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * so the livestock were left to roam free and were rounded up only to be marked or used for meat or wool. In 1933, a hurricane destroyed most of Hog Island, and with the inhabitants abandoning the settled areas, many sheep were left to fend for themselves and reverted to a feral state. It seems as if they were feral prior to being abandoned. At what point were they domesticated?
 * I got the impression that they were domesticated, but they didn't need fences/pens/folds or whatever one generally keeps sheep in, but they were still somewhat cared for and/or taken advantage of agriculturally, and they had also been bred to maximize usefulness, I think... Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 04:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, they were always domesticated until the island was abandoned, but in that kind of environment it is quite common for sheep to be just left free to roam without care until they are rounded up. They do the same thing still today in some places. Steven Walling &bull; talk   05:37, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In the 1970s, The Nature Conservancy bought the island, rounded up the sheep and removed them.. Where did they take them - were they destroyed. If they were removed - how were they later "rediscovered"?
 * When the population was discovered on the island,... When were they discovered, after 1970? Was there a point in this timeline that they were lost from history?
 * ... to determine why they were relatively free of parasites. Would this be internal parasites or external, such as ticks and fleas. I'm having troubling accepting the idea of a coastal island being free of parasites.
 * when it was discovered that they were not resistant to parasites but simply isolated from them by island life, they were sent to institutions ... This may be a cause effect problem. Were they sent to this institutions because thy are not unique in their resistance to parasites. Should these two concepts be blended as if one aspect dictated the other?
 * I think they found the sheep not resistant to parasites and therefore couldn't somehow use that trait to the advantage of agriculture, and they sent the sheep to the historical places (museums?) just because they were done with them. I don't know if they would have kept them for more research if they had had some trait that made them parasite-resistant.
 * Letting animals roam free + presence of parasites = in-grown resistance. Since feral sheep not as resistant to parasites would either die, not grow as quickly, and not reproduce as well, the pressures of natural selection mean that once feral breeds usually have higher parasite resistance. Steven Walling &bull; talk   05:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * producing nearly pure Hog Island sheep with some advantageous genes added ... No one is concerned over such hybridization?
 * The resulting sheep are as Hog-Islandy as possible, with the hybridization necessary for the sheep's health, I believe Der Elbenkoenig (talk) 04:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I see nothing concerning grammar and prose of concern - keeping in mind my skills are limited. My concern is whether it reflects an in-dept coverage of the subject. I was left with more questions than answers. The information may not be out there; it is an obscure topic. However, see if you can address my concerns; if I'm not clear - then see me in the 'real world'.--JimmyButler (talk) 20:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)