Talk:Hokkaido wolf

Notes on kanji etc:

 * The o in the romaji for okami should have a macron (long vowel).
 * The hiragana for the long o are unusual, oo instead of ou.
 * I got zero google hits for 蝦夷狼 because 蝦夷 is unusual and the pronunciation needs to be explained, so there are a lot of hits for 蝦夷(えぞ）狼 (hiragana in the brackets). Kappa 03:44, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Misc page discussion
That's one ugly wolf. It looks more like a Tasmanian Tiger than a real canine... does anyone have a better portrait of the creature? I think this one looks a lot better. http://cbc.amnh.org/crisis/images/wolf.jpg --M.Neko 06:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I just updated this page and I think I screwed up the formatting. I really want to make sure my info about how this animal became extinct to stay here. I can get as many sources as you like (I included one solid one). ...Maybe someone has a good drawing of this animal from ancient Japan? That'd rock. --8r13n 16:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I reformatted the page so that the picture is in the taxobox, and I reworded your additions so they fit into the middle of the article. If you'd like more info about how to format stuff can I suggest that you check out the Manual of Style? It's very useful. Cheers, Ziggurat 01:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

etymology
Does anyone perchance have the etymology of ookami? 大髪? 大神? It could be a single stem of course, but nothing turns up in Starostin's database as with tanuki and kitsune. --Salleman 20:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As with most (native) Japanese words, the etymology of ookami is unknown and highly debatable. Many have claimed that it is cognate with the honorific title 大神 ookami, literally "great kami," which is applied to certain Shinto deities, such as Sarutahiko.


 * However, there are regions in Japan, especially in Honshu, which is apparently the island where the Japanese wolf held out the longest before finally going extinct, that have distinct dialectal words for "wolf." Some dialects have a form kame, lacking the oo- at the beginning and having a mid-front vowel, e, rather than a high-front vowel, i, at the end of the word. I have once heard a proposal that the kame or kami element in Japanese words for "wolf" might be distantly related to the Korean word for "dog," namely gae (개, //), which descends from Late Middle Korean gahi, (가히, *//). Other Korean lexemes referring to dogs, such as gang'aji (강아지, //) "puppy," contain an element gang- (강, /-/) that appears to be ultimately derived from the same etymon as Late Middle Korean gahi. At present, this does not amount to more than pure speculation, however. Ebizur 10:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info Ebizur! --Salleman 21:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Extinct?
Canis lupus hattai appears to be extinct, however there is a very remote possibility that it is not. We know that it had a distinct morphology (Kishida 1931, Pocock 1935) and that it was genetically related to North American wolves (Ishiguro 2010, Matsumura 2014). It is clear that it no longer exists on Hokkaido island. We have no information of its status on the Kamchatka Peninsula. Reports from the Kuril islands have been mixed since the 1900s, with some stating that they were in existence there up until the 1960s when a survey at that time could not find any (Heptner 1998). The description of the "Sakhalin wolf" is regarded as "unsatisfactory" (Heptner 1998) and so its description is not clear. It must be kept in mind that the wolf went extinct on Hokkaido in 1889 but was recognized there as a distinct subspecies by Kishida in 1931, or 42 years after it had gone extinct, and prior to that it was assumed to be a larger local variant of the Japanese wolf then later a relative of wolves from Siberia (Walker 2005). Its reporting is also mixed, with one writer stating that it has not been seen since the start of the last century (Heptner 1998) but another reporting that it was there in 1945 (Harper 1945). Confounding this is the report of "Siberian forest wolves" making there way to the island from time to time when the Nevelskoy Strait ices over (Heptner 1998). Which means that these wolves would be coming from the Amur River region of the Russian Pacific coast, and conversely it is possible that samples of hattai could have gone the other way as wolves tend to prefer to expand into very similar habitat, and if pressured they will either go extinct or migrate (Leonard 2015). So, how do we tell a Siberian forest wolf from hattai if the description is not clear? The only way to tell would be by a DNA sample or oestology (what its skull and teeth tell us). The last study that I could find from the Amur region was conducted in the Sikhote-Alin (16,000 square kilometres of UNESCO protected area) that looked at the Amur tiger and wolves as competing predators - the area was so remote and these competitors so wary and stealthful around each other that the study depended on signs of their tracks to estimate their numbers (Miguel 2005). Based on the information available to us at this time, and until a more thorough study is taken, hattai is probably extinct. However, it may have admixed with "Siberian forest wolves" and so one day an analysis of the mDNA of one sample may show it to be the descendent of a female hattai. It then becomes a phenotype/genotype argument as to what name scientists might assign to that specimen. William Harris •   talk •   22:04, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal - change title
Two weeks ago I sought information on Canis lupus hattai and Wikipedia brought me to the "Hokkaido wolf" page, where I learned that the Hokkaido wolf lived on Hokkaido and became extinct in 1889. I was to learn elsewhere that I had been misled about Canis lupus hattai.

I believe that Canis lupus hattai should be WP:MOVEd from the Hokkaido wolf page to the redirect that is titled Ezo wolf. Sometimes Ezo is spelled Yezo or Yeso or Yesso to help English speakers pronounce the name similar to the softer Japanese pronunciation i.e. not as the harder "ee-zo". Expanding the pix in the taxabox will show in the background a sign written in English displaying "Yezo wolf" for visitors. There are two possible reasons for the move offered by WP:MOVE -

The subject of the article has changed its name and the new name has come into majority use The Japanese refer to hattai as the Ezo wolf. Rather than the Ezo wolf being a name used only in Japan, the NCBI/GenBank uses the Ezo wolf as the common name for this subspecies:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Browser/wwwtax.cgi?id=644627 Modern scientific sources refer to the Ezo wolf and two are included in the article - Ishiguro (2010) and Matsumura (2014). Matsumura (2014) explains that: "Two lineages of wolves in Japan, namely, Japanese or Honshu (C. l. hodophilax) and Ezo or Hokkaido (C. l. hattai) wolves..." which confirms that the term Hokkaido wolf is not incorrect but it does appear to be the least preferred term, because Matsumura referred to the Ezo wolf for the rest of the study. The name Ezo wolf appears often in research whereas the Hokkaido wolf does not. However, two authoritative ethno-historical references are not in accord: Waiting for Wolves in Japan: An Anthropological Study of People-wildlife Relations (Knight 2003) refers to the Ezo wolf while The Lost Wolves of Japan (Walker 2005) refers to the Hokkaido wolf. Additionally, a world-wide-web search of book references gives 3 pages of results for searches on each of the Ezo wolf and the Hokkaido wolf

Wikipedia advises:
 * WP:NAMINGCRITERIA "There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains."
 * WP:COMMONNAME "When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly."

A move under this criterion would require editor consensus, and I do not believe that there are sufficient grounds to persuade a significant majority of interested editors to be able to form a consensus.

The title has been misspelled, does not contain standard capitalization or punctuation, or is misleading or inaccurate Kishida first named Canis lupus hattai in 1931 and published its name in English as the Yesso wolf. The Japanese refer to hattai as the Ezo wolf, and it is unclear when or why the name Hokkaido wolf also came to be used in the English-speaking world.

Ezo is a Japanese word meaning "foreigner" and refers to the historical lands of the Ainu people to the north of Honshu. Western maps from the 16 century referred to "Yezo" as the lands to the north of the Japanese island of Honshu and into the sea of Okhotsk. The Ainu were to be found on Hokkaido, Sakhalin, the Kuril islands, and as far north as the Kamchatka Peninsula. The range of Canis lupus hattai was the Hokkaido and Sakhalin islands, Iturup and Kunashir islands just to the east of Hokkaido in the Kuril archipelago, and the Kamchatka peninsula. It is clear that the name Ezo accurately describes the range of both the Ainu people and of hattai. The wolf went extinct on Hokkaido in 1889, however there have been reports of hattai surviving on Sakhalin and the Kuril islands up until the 1940s. The name Hokkaido wolf is inaccurate when describing the range of hattai. As the range of hattai has now been found to be much wider than just Hokkaido and the date of its final extinction questioned, I believe that the name Hokkaido wolf is both misleading and inaccurate and the name should be changed on Wikipedia to Ezo wolf - as its discoverer had originally named it.

A move under this criterion would require editor consensus, and I believe that there are sufficient grounds to persuade a significant majority of interested editors to be able to form a consensus.

Requested move 23 April 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus. this has been here for ages, and with OK arguments on both sides, in equal measure, this is a no consensus. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 20:56, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Hokkaido wolf → Ezo Wolf – The title is misleading or inaccurate - refer WP:MOVE section Reasons for moving a page.

Kishida first named Canis lupus hattai in 1931 and published its name in English as the Yesso wolf (which is its pronunciation in Japanese): Kishida K (1931) Notes on the Yesso wolf, Lansania 3: 72–75. The Japanese refer to hattai as the Ezo wolf, and it is unclear when or why the name Hokkaido wolf also came to be used in the English-speaking world. The NCBI/GenBank uses the Ezo wolf as the common name for this subspecies:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Browser/wwwtax.cgi?id=644627

Ezo is a Japanese word meaning "foreigner" and refers to the historical lands of the Ainu people to the north of Honshu. Western maps from the 16 century referred to "Yezo" as the lands to the north of the Japanese island of Honshu and into the sea of Okhotsk. The Ainu were to be found on Hokkaido, Sakhalin, the Kuril islands, and as far north as the Kamchatka Peninsula. The range of Canis lupus hattai was the Hokkaido and Sakhalin islands, Iturup and Kunashir islands just to the east of Hokkaido in the Kuril archipelago, and the Kamchatka peninsula. It is clear that the name Ezo accurately describes the range of both the Ainu people and of hattai. The wolf went extinct on Hokkaido in 1889, however there have been reports of hattai surviving on Sakhalin and the Kuril islands up until the 1940s. The name Hokkaido wolf is inaccurate when describing the range of hattai. As the range of hattai has now been more accurately reflected in the article and the date of its final extinction questioned, I propose that the name Hokkaido wolf is both misleading and inaccurate and the name should be changed on Wikipedia to Ezo wolf. William Harris •   talk •   09:27, 23 April 2016 (UTC) --Relisted.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:UCN. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:17, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Needs more sourcing (about what English-language sources call the wolf, not about Japanese or about the Ainu people). Genbank is a tertiary source, and just one. I'm going to bed, but suggest using Google N-grams, and Google Scholar (or other journal search).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  05:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC) I
 * Hello SMcCandlish, I should have first directed people's attention to the section above that is titled Proposal - change title, my apologies for that. Please look there under "The subject of the article has changed its name and the new name has come into majority use", where the search results had already been provided for consideration. I am not proposing a change of name based on majority usage as one term does not appear to be used more than the other, I am basing it on the title being misleading or inaccurate. (You are correct that Genbank is a tertiary source, but it is the only source that holds the mitochondrial DNA sequence of the Ezo wolf deposited under the name of Source: mitochondrion Canis lupus hattai (Ezo wolf) and the research study that provided it - forever listed - of Osteological and genetic analysis of the extinct Ezo wolf (Canis lupus hattai) from Hokkaido Island, Japan ) Regards, William Harris  •   talk •   05:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, WP:COMMONNAME doesn't agree with you; we use the most common name for the subject, regardless of how "inaccurate" it may be by some ill-defined standard. There are many cases where common names of species do not capture subtleties of modern range, historical range, or phylogenity. Doesn't matter, we use them anyway, because we are not here to right great wrongs, nor are we here to draw original conclusions from disparitive sources, which is what you've done here. As such, I oppose the move. "Hokkaido wolf" remains the most common name for this subspecies, regardless of whether or not it fully describes the wolf. oknazevad (talk) 11:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello oknazevad, I should have first directed people's attention to the section above that is titled Proposal - change title, my apologies for that. Please look there under "The subject of the article has changed its name and the new name has come into majority use", where the search results had already been provided for consideration. I am not proposing a change of name based on majority usage as one term does not appear to be used more than the other, I am basing it on the title being misleading or inaccurate, which WP:MOVE allows. I do not believe there is a common name as both terms are used equally in a search on book literature, with Ezo being used most in a search on the the scientific literature. William Harris  •   talk •   21:07, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.