Talk:Holkham Hall

Ayn Rand Comment
This is the kind of architecture Ayn Rand would have considered an eyesore if not a nightmare. Why don't the Ayn Rand buffs speak up?
 * This was slipped in as though part of the more official notifications above so I broke it out. In reply, this is an encyclopedia article about a British national monument (even though privately owned). Its purpose is to inform the public about the monument. Speculations about what some obscure novelist might possibly have thought of its architecture if she were alive today can play no possible part in the article. Leave us alone, if you don't mind. There is an article on Ayn Rand and the first thing I notice about it is the tags and its poor quaility. Why don't you work on that?Dave 15:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Historical issue
Well, I never like to fuss with star articles and certainly this article has quite a number of watchdogs justifiably concerned with keeping it that way. While working on the article for Thomas Dempster, whose star work on Etruria was published by the builder of the palladian house, I discovered what appears to be a legitimate biography of the main line of Cokes by a descendant, which I have listed as a biblio item under Thomas Dempster and elsewhere. That would be "Coke of Norfolk and his friends" by Anna (many names) Stirling, who incorporates family memories into the book.

On the whole Anna verified the details of this article rather well. Not quite however. Anna never heard of "the neals" and states explicitly that Holkham manor was acquired by John 4th son of Sir Edward, and not by Sir Edward. It was John who put together the estate, starting by marrying Merial Wheatley, heiress of the manor, which was owned by the Wheatley's. John then proceded to buy up the whole parish, concluding by 1659. He then went on to start reclaiming the salt marsh, which process would shut down the thriving port by rendering it inland.

If I were you I would take a look at this, as you can download the book from Google Books. Anna points how how all biographies were suppressed in favor of an authorized one, which failed in momentum and was lost still in manuscript form. She dedicates the work to "my mother, the granddaughter of Coke of Norfolk." Anna has first-hand knowlege of the monuments and traditions of Holkham. She points out at least one error in the "The British Encyclopedia" of her time, that Bridget Paston, main wife of Sir Edward and mother of his major heirs, died after 6 months of marriage.

So I leave it up to you. The references on the article appear to be general handbooks. Stirling's work deals specifically with the Coke branches involved and the development of the estate. Maybe out there somewhere is an explanation of the discrepancy. Happy researching.Dave 11:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Collections, etc
Just so the text added recently is not lost, here is a copy of it before it was reverted:

Collections
Uniquely the house was designed around the art collection acquired (a few works were commissioned) by Thomas Coke during his Grand Tour of Italy during 1712–18. To complete the scheme it was necessary to send Matthew Brettingham the younger to Rome between 1747–54 to purchase further works of art. Much thought went into the placing of sculptures and paintings, involving subtle connections and contrasts in the mythological and historical characters and stories depicted.

The works collected in Italy include: sculpture, paintings, mosaics, books, manuscripts and old master drawings (most of which have been sold). The books included one of Leonardo da Vinci’s note books now known as the Codex Leicester which was sold from the collection in 1980.

The collection of 60 Ancient Roman marble sculptures is amongst the finest in any private collection in the world. The collection consists of both life size and greater than life size statues and busts of Roman deities and ancient Romans, plus other sculptures. Most have been repaired to varying extents. The full length statues are mainly displayed in the Sculpture Gallery along with busts which are also to be found through out the State Rooms.

Sculpture
The Sculpture Gallery is a tripartite room over 100 feet long, consisting of two plain-domed octagonal tribunes with elaborate entablatures and are linked by arches to the coffered-apses at either end of the rectangular central room. The Northern Tribune  has large niches in the corners that extent down to floor level to take large sculptures on plinths, there are busts in the open pediments above the two doors. The Southern Tribune has bookcases in the corners, which like the doors have open pediments to take busts, above the window in plaster is the year 1753. The statue niches in the central room rise from dado level, two in each of the apses and three either side of the fireplace the central one of which is larger than the flanking ones. The elaborately carved chimneypiece of white marble with coloured panel, is surmounted by a niche with a carved pedimented frame, all the other niches are plain. The busts sit on brackets projecting from the walls, the central palladian window is framed by elaborate corinthian columns and pilasters, the room has a gilt cornice around the plain ceiling.

Sculptures marked with an * were purchased by Thomas Coke on his Grand Tour, any marked # were purchased by Matthew Brettingham the younger.

The Roman statues include:


 * Southern apse of the Sculpture Gallery: Satyrs one playing a flute# & one wearing a pigskin#.
 * South of the Sculpture Gallery fireplace: Meleager#, Marsyas# & Poseidon/Neptune#.
 * Above the Sculpture Gallery fireplace: Apollo*.
 * North of the Scupture Gallery fireplace: Dionysus/Bacchus#, Artemis/Diana* & Aphrodite/Venus#.
 * Northern apse of the Sculpture Gallery: Athena/Minerva# and Demeter/Ceres#.
 * North Tribune: Isis# repaired with a head from another statue, Livia#, statue repaired with a head of Lucius Verus* & unidentified man wearing a toga (purchased as Lucius Antonius)*.
 * Marble Hall in the niches of the apse: statue repaired with a head of Septimus Severus#, an Ephebos restored as a Satyr#, a heavily restored Satyr playing cymbals* & a heavily restored statue of Julia Mamaea*.
 * Private Rooms: Fortuna# (purchased as Isis) and a torso of a draped male (purchased as Jupiter*, it was this statue that William Kent intended to restore and place in the centre of the stairs in the Marble Hall).

The Roman busts include depictions/portraits of:
 * The Sculpture Gallery: Cybele* in the pediment above Apollo, flanking the northern apse Lucius Cornelius Sulla# & Thucydides#, flanking the southern apse Lucius Junius Brutus# & Pseudo-Seneca#, between the windows an unidentified man# and a woman# (these last two are not part of Thomas Coke's arrangment of the sculptures).
 * North Tribune: Above the doors, Emperor Philip as a youth# & Faustina the Elder#.
 * The South Tribune: Above the doors and bookcases, Hadrian#, Julia Mamaea#, Julia di Tito#, Caesar Marcus Aurelius*, Gallienus# & Geta#.
 * The North Dining Room: In oval niches above the fireplaces Aelius Verus# & Juno#, flanking the apse Marcus Aurelius# & Caesar Geta#.
 * The Saloon: Above the central door Juno#.
 * Private Rooms: Zeus/Jupiter*, Artemis (acquired c1737 origin unknown), Salonina#, Roma (probably purchased in Rome by Edward Coke in 1737), Nerva*, Plato#, Caracalla#, Gordian III#, Maecenas# & a badly eroded male head possibly Greek, c400 BC acquired by the 5th Earl in 1955.

Other Roman sculptures include:
 * The Sculpture Gallery: Between Apollo and the fireplace relief of Julius Caesar# in profile.
 * Private Rooms: Profile relief of Carneades#, A statuette of the Nile river god#, Altar of Caius Calpurnius Cognitus*, Cinerarium of Petronius Hedychrus*, Sarcophagus of T. Flabius Hermetes#, Marble Oscillum# depicting a cavorting satyr, A Herma# & fragments of a sarcophagus decorated with sea-creatures*.

There are several sculptures dating from the Post-Roman era:


 * The Marble Hall contains a series of plaster casts of eight sculptures, in the niches of the east wall: Apollo, Flora, Bacchus, Isis, in the niches of the west wall: Aphrodite, Hermes, Saint Susanna & Capitoline Antinous, plus Louis-François Roubiliac's marble bust of Thomas Coke above the door in the apse, and on marble half-columns Francis Chantrey's marble busts of 'Coke of Norfolk' and a second one Thomas Coke. There is a set of four marble reliefs in the apse between the niches (added by 'Coke of Norfolk'): Thomas Banks's The Death of Germanicus, Richard Westmacott's Death of Socrates, Stoldo Lorenzi's Lorenzo I & Francis Chantrey's The Passing of the Reform Bill 1832.
 * The Drawing Room: Marble copies of busts of Marcus Aurelius and Caracalla on the mantlepiece, and plaster busts of Faustina, Carneades, Pythagoras & Zeno above the doors.
 * The South Dining Room: Four plaster busts above the doors.
 * The Long Library: above the bookcases a marble bust of Alexander Pope and plaster copies of Venus, Cybele & A Vestal Virgin.
 * Private Rooms: A series of 18th century marble copies of ancient busts, including: Homer & Alexander the Great, and plaster casts of statues including Ganymede & Apollo Belvedere these used to be in the Vestibule beneath the Portico and Saloon. 'Coke of Norfolk' commissioned marble busts including: Napolean & Charles James Fox
 * Corridor linking the Guest-Wing to the North Tribune: in niches flanking the bookcase and window, plaster casts of Venus de' Medici, A Camillus, Urania & Apollino.

Paintings
The present Earl has restored the paintings to the positions designed for them (although Titian's Venus and the Lute Player was sold in 1931 and is now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art):


 * The Drawing Room: above the fireplace Pietro da Pietri's Madonna in Gloria, two works by Melchior d'Hondecoeter flanking the fireplace of fighting birds, left of the fireplace Gaspar Poussin's The Storm & above the doors four landscapes by Jan Frans van Bloemen, right of the fireplace Claude Lorrain's Apollo flaying Marsyas, in the centre of the east wall Jonathan Richardson's portrait of Thomas Coke 1st Earl of Leicester in the robes of the Order of the Bath & in the centre of the west wall Marcus Gheeraerts the Younger's portrait of Sir Edward Coke founder of the family's fortune.


 * The Saloon: in the centre of the west wall Peter Paul Rubens The Return of the Holy Family, in the centre of the east wall Anthony Van Dyck’s Duc D’Arenburg on Horseback, above the fireplaces Andrea Procaccini’s Tarquin Raping Lucretia & Giuseppe Bartolomeo Chiari’s Perseus and Andromeda, above the western doors two portraits by Carlo Maratta & above the eastern doors Agostino Scilla's paintings of Summer and Winter.


 * The South Dining Room: in the centre of the east wall Guido Reni’s Joseph and Potiphar’s Wife, above the eastern doors Cristoforo Roncalli's Pope Julius II & Sir Peter Lely's portrait of Edmund Waller, above the fireplace Thomas Gainsborough’s portrait of Coke of Norfolk, left of the fireplace A Naked Venus in the style of Titian, left and right of the fireplace two works by Gaspar Poussin’s  A Stormy Landscape & A classical landscape with reclining figures, right of the fireplace Melchior d'Hondecoeter’s Bird painting, in the centre of the west wall Pompeo Batoni's portrait of Coke of Norfolk while on his Grand Tour, above the western doors school of Holbein Sir Thomas More & School of Titian A Venetian Lady.


 * The Landscape Room: Luca Giordano's Saint John the Baptist Preaching, all the other paintings in the room are landscapes, five works by Gaspar Poussin, seven works by Claude Lorraine, two works by Claude Joseph Vernet, one work by Salvator Rosa, two works by Andrea Locatelli, two works by Jan Frans van Bloemen, one work by Giovanni Francesco Grimaldi & one work by Domenico Zampieri.


 * The Green State Bedroom: above the fireplace Gavin Hamilton's Jupiter caressing Juno & above the four doors paintings by Francesco Zuccarelli depicting the seasons.


 * The Green State Dressing Room includes: small scale works by Jacopo Bassano, Sebastiano Conca, Carlo Maratta & Gaspar van Wittel.


 * The North State Dressing Room: above the chimney piece Bastiano da Sangallo's copy of Michelangelo's destroyed cartoon of Florentines surprised by the Pisans while bathing & Annibale Carracci's Galatea and Polyphemus


 * The North State Bedroom: Jonathan Richardson's portrait of Lady Margaret Tufton countess of Leicester & Edward Viscount Coke, Jonathan Richardson's portrait of Thomas Coke 1st Earl of Leicester & portrait of William Heveningham (he was Thomas Coke's grandfather).


 * The Chapel: the east wall above the altar Guido Reni's The Assumption of the Virgin flanked by Giovanni Battista Cipriani's paintings of St. Anne & St. Cecila, in the west gallery, Carlo Maratta's Virgin Holding a Book, 16th century Head of Christ by an unknown painter of the Milanese School, above the fireplace Giorgio Vasari's portrait of Pope Leo X, Bernardino Luini's Holy Family with St John the Baptist, Francesco Mazzuola's Penitent Magdalen, in the manner of van Dyke Archbishop Laud, the south wall Mattia Preti's The Adoration of the Magi, Andrea Sacchi's Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael, Giovanni Lanfranco's The Angel appearing to Joseph, on the north wall Carlo Maratta's The Virgin reading with St. John, Pietro da Cortona's A scriptural piece from the history of Jacob.


 * The private rooms contain many paintings, including in Lady Leicester's Sitting Room: Canaletto's View of the Palace of St Mark, Venice, with preparations for the Doge's Wedding in the overmantle & four views of Rome by Gaspar van Wittel. Elsewhere are Francesco Trevisani's portrait of Thomas Coke on his Grand Tour, Andrea Casali's portraits of Thomas Coke and his wife and Rosalba Carriera's portraits of Edward Viscount Coke and his wife Lady Mary Coke.

Old master drawings
Sadly most of the old master drawings have been sold, including: Raphael's Cartoon of the Virgin and Child with the Infant St John the Baptist, Bernini's Design for the Tomb of Cardinal Carlo Emanule Pio da Carpi, Pietro da Cortona's Christ on the Cross and Assembly of the Gods, Nicholas Poussin's View of the Tiber Valley and Wooded Landscape with River God Gathering Fruit, Guido Reni's Head of a Young Woman Looking Up, Jusepe de Ribera Adoration of the Shepherds, Frans Snyders Wild Boar at Bay, Paolo Veronese's Allegorical Female Figure Holding a Sceptre & Globe.

Books & manuscripts

 * The Long Library: contains 2,000 of the 10,500 books & manuscripts bought by Thomas Coke although 'Coke of Norfolk' also acquired several volumes when on his Grand Tour. All are bound in leather with gilt titles (the collection has around 15,000 books in total some of which are modern). The book & manuscript collections are also housed in the Classical Library, Manuscript Library (both in the Family-Wing) and the North Tribune which houses some of the largest books, elephant folio volumes which include architectural books of which the collection has several examples. The core of the library are books from and on Italy, especially the Renaissance.
 * Holkham Manuscript 311 is an illuminated manuscript of Virgil's Aeneid dated c1500 just one of many still in the collection. Many manuscripts have been sold from the collection including Holkham Manuscript 48 Dante's Divine Comedy, Italian 14th century, now in the Bodleian Library. Some of the manuscripts date from the time of Sir Edward Coke including ones related to the settlement of North America, Coke helped draft the charter of the Virginia Company. Other of his legal documents includes a 15th century copy of Magna Carter. There are is also a collection of Civil War and Commonwealth pamphlets.
 * There is an extensive archive of material relating to the building of the House and the acquistion of the collections. Including letters from both Matthew Brettingham the elder, the executive architect and Baron Lovell (Thomas Coke's title before becoming Earl of Leicester), as well as several architectural plans and elevations showing various alternative designs including many drawings by William Kent. In 1761 Matthew Brettingham the elder published The Plans, Elevations and Sections, Of Holkham in Norfolk in which he down played the role of Kent in the design of the House. The correspondence with Matthew Brettingham the younger whilst he was in Italy is extensive, there was much discussion about potential purchases of art works and their cost, also his account book survives. The first consignment of sculptures being sent in 1749, due to the difficulty in getting permission from the Papal authorities to export the sculpture of Isis the second consignment was not dispatched until 1751. After which sculptures were export annually until the last shipment in 1754.

Furnishings

 * The North Dining Room: a large classical style porphyry table from Italy in the apse, a porphyry wine-cooler, an elaborate silver candelabra over three feet in height sits in the centre of the circular dining table and the richly patterned Axminster carpet mirrors the form of the shallow dome in the ceiling above.
 * The Sculpture Gallery: the two cut-glass crystal chandeliers in the tribunes are English dated c1760.
 * The Saloon: two side tables whose tops are covered by geometrical mosaics from Hadrian's Villa and between the windows mirrors with elaborately carved & gilt frames combined with girandoles and matching pier-tables below, the seat furniture gilt and velvet upholstered is by William Kent.
 * The Green State Bedroom: tapestries of the four continents, Asia is a Mortlake tapestry, Europe, America & Africa are Brussel's tapestries, between the windows are two small Mortlake tapestries of Sleep & Vigilance, the canopied bed and most of the furniture is to designs by William Kent.
 * The North State Bedchamber: has a table with a top made from a mosaic from Hadrian's Villa.
 * The State Sitting Room: 17th century Brussel's tapestries designed by Peemans, depicting the twelve months of the year.
 * The Long Library: The overmantle of the chimneypiece contains a mosaic from Hadrian's Villa depicting a lion fighting a leopard.
 * The Venetian Room (in the guest wing): has 18th century tapestries with a pastoral theme with playing cupids.

The Estate, park & gardens
Work to the designs of William Kent on the Park commenced in 1729, several years before the house was constructed. This event was commemorated by the construction in 1730 of the obelisk, 80 feet in height, standing on the highest point in the Park, it is located over half a mile to the south and on axis with the centre of the House. An avenue of trees stretches over a mile south of the obelisk. Thousands of trees were planted on what had been windswept land, by 1770 the park covered 1500 acres. Other garden buildings designed by Kent include the Triumphal Arch near the far end of the avenue and the Temple in the woods near the obelisk. Above the main entrance to the house within the Marble Hall is this inscription:

This Seat, on an open barren Estate Was planned, planted, built, decorated. And inhabited the middle of the XVIIIth Century By THO's COKE EARL of LEICESTER

Under 'Coke of Norfolk' extensive improvements were made to the park and by his death in 1842 covered its present extent of over 3000 acres and he planted over a million trees on the estate. He employed the architect Samuel Wyatt to design over 50 buildings for the estate, including a series of farm buildings and farmhouses in a simplified neo-classical style, culminating in c1790 with the Great Barn located in the Park half a mile south-east of the Obelisk. The cost of each farm was in the region of £1,500 to £2,600, Lodge Farm Castle Acre costing in 1797-1800 £2,604 6s. 5d. The lake to the west of the house was originally a marshy inlet off the North Sea but was created in 1801-3 by the landscape gardener William Eames, at the same time to Wyatt's design the new walled kitchen gardens covering 6 acres were under construction, this stands to the west of the lake. The Kitchen Gardens includes: A Fig House, Peach House and Vinery. Coke was commemorated by the Coke Monument, designed by William Donthorne and erected in 1845-8 at a cost to the tenants of the estate of £4,000. It consists of a Corinthian column 120 feet high on a plinth decorated with bas-reliefs carved by John Henning Junior, the corners of the plinth support sculptures of an ox, sheep, plough and seed-drill. Coke's work to increase farm yields resulted in the rental income of the estate rising between 1776 & 1816 from £2,200 to £20,000. The monument is about half a mile north of and on axis with the House.

In 1850 Thomas Coke, 2nd Earl of Leicester called in the architect William Burn to build new stables to the east of the House. Also in collaboration with W. A. Nesfield who designed the parterres, work started at the same time on the terraces surrounding the house, work continuing until 1857, including to the south and on axis with the House the monumental fountain of St. George and the Dragon dated c1849-57 sculpted by Charles Raymond Smith. To the east of the house and overlooking the terrace Burn designed the large stone Orangery, with three-bay pedimented centre and three-bay flanking wings, which is now roofless and windowless.

Image caption
Should the lead image caption, which currently reads "...not even a blind window is allowed to break the void between the windows and roof-line, while the lower windows are mere piercings in the stark brickwork..." read "....not even a blind window is allowed to break the void between the windows and roof-line, while the lower windows are mere piercings in the rusticated stonework" ? --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Puff?
"Through the centuries, the Green State bedroom has hosted many English Kings, Queens" Oi! in its sweeping grandeur this line smacks of the kind of brochure copy currently being inserted in Wikipedia by Taj Hotels! What Crowned Head laid its crown on the Green State Bedroom's night table, then? --Wetman (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Mary the Clepto it seems. Giano (talk) 22:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That was me. Oops is all I can say. Its gone now. Ceoil  sláinte 22:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Et ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis. Giano (talk) 22:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Dont speak latin. Nor does google it seems, which returned "Flickr is almost certainly the best online photo management and sharing application in the world. Show off your favorite photos and videos to the world".

Are you asking me to fall on my sword? If so; bugger. Ceoil sláinte 22:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, don't fall on your sword just yet, from what little bit of Latin I remember from my youth, I think he's absolving of your sins. Richerman (talk) 10:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Phew! Close one. Ceoil  sláinte 11:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the Green State Bedroom in the private wing or n in the main corps de logis with the other state rooms? I would have thought the great library was the principal room of the family wing? Giano (talk) 15:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't know, yet. Have you seen this panorama (seems to only work with IE). Tacky, but nice. Ceoil  sláinte 15:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No it's not nice, makes me feel sick and drunk. I'll cnage the bit about it being in family wing because I would be amazed if it was! Giano (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ha! I was dizzy for a bit; but after I figured out how to stop the thing from spinning it seemed grand. To be honest, I like the exterior very much, but the interior decoration seems too opulent and self regarding for my taste. Great houses where I'm from tend to be understated and austere. Ceoil  sláinte 16:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Art collection
Whilst I agree that the mere list of paintings just removed was not very helpful here, I could not disagree more strongly with the edit summary removing it: "Nev1 (talk | contribs) (26,652 bytes) (A poorly formatted section degrades the article as a Featured Article and places undue emphasis on an art collection in an articlle about a building. A see also link is sufficient. If you disagree take it to the talk page." As it is the article clearly fails FA criteria by the inadequacy of it its coverage of the art collection, to display which was a prime factor in the design of the house, and which, most unusually, remains very largely intact and displayed as was intended (library works apart).  There is a separate article on the art collection, by the same main author, but it is inadequately integrated here. Not to have at least one separate section is ridiculous. The list should also have been added to the art collection article, where it belongs, which I will do. Johnbod (talk) 22:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I initialy removed the section with a similar summary. There is nothing wrong at all with such a section, providing it is properly written - the removed section was not. If someone wants to add that information in the correct format and not alter the proportions and weight of the page, that is fine by me. Giacomo Returned 18:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * So we are agreed that "a see also link is sufficient" is balls. I'm not going to launch an FAR, but at the moment this article would have little chance of surviving one, on several grounds. Johnbod (talk) 19:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. I'm still not convinced a bare list of names is the right way to go about including information about the collection though. Nev1 (talk) 19:09, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't, though it was a reasonably useful addition to the other article. The lead from the art collection article could be adapted & added here usefully though. Johnbod (talk) 19:20, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it could and I look forward to seeing how you do that. Regarding the page's FA status, that really does not matter two hoots, it's an old FA written to different standards - it can loose the FA star, but that does not mean it can have lists and disjointed information added willy nilly. Giacomo Returned 20:44, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm in, or near, Rome at the moment, so you will know what to expect in terms of productivity, especially in August. It will have to await my return to bracing northern climes, which is sadly not long away. Johnbod (talk) 22:09, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Goodness! Rome in August! I thought the place was empty - do you get some kind of endurance medal for being there? It must be like solitary confinement. Giacomo Returned 18:16, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The spirit of Nev's edit summary was right, but maybe not best put, and I also reversed the same edit earlier in the week (gentemanly overcoming 800 years of English opression to help a neighbouring country's house's article, ahem). Certainly a section would be damn fine, but as text, not as an almost powerpoint a like list. Ceoil  sláinte 21:37, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Reassessment?
I was trying to point somebody to a good example of an article about an art gallery in East Anglia, spotted this in Category:Art museums and galleries in Norfolk, saw the gold star and thought "Brilliant!" Then I started to write up about how its sourcing was impeccable and really high quality ... only to find it wasn't.

Several paragraphs are completely unsourced - more have unreferenced material at the end of them, one citation is dead, some others are a bit vague (I'm sure books published in 1978 and 2002 have ISBN numbers and for a modern day FA review, we'd probably insist on them). In short, I can't in good conscience cite this article as a good example of what Wikipedia should look like.

If anyone thinks I shouldn't take it to WP:FAR, shout! Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   14:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's too awful, but you must do what you think best. It is a very old FA and things creep in over the years and probably woudl not pass today - such is life. Personally, I didn't see anything unreffed which really ought to be, but the page has become tired and could do with a freshen up. If you want unreffed, you shoudl see the things I have cut out of it over the years.  Giano   07:05, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose I should really step up to the mantle (as it were) and try and ref some of it from Google Books first. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   11:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Hebditch Lodge
Hello there, my great grandfather was the Gamekeeper at this lovely place. I wonder if you have any photographs of John Hebditch. Thank you in advance. Robbiedog73 (talk) 20:45, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Holkham Hall archives
Since this is a FA (even a ~tired one, see above), I'm bringing this here first; but I'm surprised not to see any mention of the Holkam Hall archives. These have been discussed at length (e.g. ), and are an important source for Norfolk history (and national, for that matter). Any views? WP:NODEADLINE applies of course, but I could knock up a para in the near future. Probably a sub-section under "Holkham today." Incidentally I removed some dubious unsourced stuff per WP:NOTNEWS.  >SerialNumber 54129 ...speculates 18:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Issues with the article


This article has rather a lot of odd issues. Let's look at a big one, this image.

The letters on the image go A-F. The description adds L and O to these, and I cannot for a moment guess why. Was there a second level of plans that got deleted? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8% of all FPs 17:28, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

You are 100% correct. I have reinserted the original plan removed by some half-witted idiot! One turns one’s back on Wikipedia for five minutes and the place falls to pieces! As for the rest of it, I’ve done my bit for England’s great buildings, it needs some newer blood now. The Lady Catherine de Burgh (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Featured article review
I believe this article needs a featured article review for the following problems;


 * The exterior section has too few references.
 * The interior section contains two paragraphs with no references.
 * The grounds section contains an unreferenced paragraph.
 * The grounds section contains a blockquote with too little explanation of its meaning
 * An ugly arrangement of pictures in the grounds section
 * Leadcite problems
 * Image caption problems
 * The house contains an extensive list of artwork which isn't discussed instead its placed at Art collections of Holkham Hall, this info needs merging into the article.
 * The article has no history section, instead one section called Architects and Patrons and a second called Holkholm today
 * This is a small article ~28Kb for a house with a very big history.

If the article isn't updated in due course it will do go featured article review. Desertarun (talk) 16:03, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I can’t pick it up just yet, but if we could hold off on FAR, I’ll try to update it in the next month. KJP1 (talk) 07:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely don't merge the long Art collections of Holkham Hall - more summary might be good. Apart from the referencing issues, and without a lot of looking, this seems a rather dubious list to me. I think not having a history section is a good thing in this case - most house articles have rather too much, and too high up (very many shorter house articles are almost entirely family history).  You might take the family part of the lead, and the bit in "Holkham today" for a short history section.  Desertarun, why do you say it's "a house with a very big history"? It doesn't really seem to be.  Johnbod (talk) 12:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a shoddy 2005 featured article with numerous problems. I can't fathom why you think little needs to be done. Desertarun (talk) 17:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Very probably you are correct, but don’t forget some us were writing these pages using a newly invented and very limited internet, while you were sitting in your shoddily built, mass produced perambulator. So perhaps a little more understanding of those of us who built Wikipedia is called for? The Lady Catherine de Burgh (talk) 19:56, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * How about you review NPA, because you seem to have forgotten. You really have no idea how long i've been on WP, but its a lot longer than you think. If i hadn't always had positive interactions with KJP1 i'd have dumped this on FAR by now. Desertarun (talk) 21:45, 28 October 2023 (UTC)