Talk:House music/Archive 1

Moog Correction
I don't know the best way to correct this but it's listed that the Moog was a Sampler and it wasn't - it was just a synthesizer

Any Suggestions? Lochok 13:25, 18 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You seem to be making a couple of mistakes here... 1) there is no such thing as "The Moog" ... Moog manufactured over 100 different products over the years (since all are hand assembled there are even variations among similar models) 2) Moog DID MAKE SAMPLERS! However Moog is best known for its Analog synths. In my opinion I see nothing in need of correction.  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 20:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

History Of House
As mentioned from a couple of others, I think the article glosses over the early history of house music, the importance of vocal stylings, and its origins from disco a bit too much. Much more information needs to be added about the influences of Larry Levan and other NYC DJs from the 1970s. One of the most common misconceptions about house music is that it and disco music are like 'night' and 'day' and that couldn't be further from the truth. Also, I think a bit more info about the U.S. DJs and about commercial house. You can't tell me there wasn't a single influential house track to come out of the U.S. between 1992 and 2000 - I can hardly believe that!

The information about the decline of the industry after 2000 is right on the mark. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Something is causing it to decline and that reasoning is the best I've seen so far. Higher prices, no innovation in the music (when DJs had always been innovating in the past), and a younger generation that seems less interested.

-- Matt M., 08:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

'Classic (genre-defining/-representing) house records' section
Someone seems to have added a lot of seemingly random house records into this section. They should either be given a description saying exactly why they're 'classic (genre defining/-representing)', or removed. BillyH 09:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Eurodance?
I was thinking of a facelift for Eurodance], a template for Eurodance acts etc, when I noticed a lot of artists are classified as House and Eurodance too. Now, my definition of Eurodance is more like I know if it's Eurodance if listen to it, or from Digitally Imported broadcasts; I also noticed that artists like Nana or Leila K are clasified as Eurodance, though I can't see why, as they don't sound like 2 Brothers on the 4th Floor. The artists who ruled the East European clubs of my teen years and who AFAIK ruled the charts in The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark between 1992 and 1997, all of them defining Eurodance personalities, are not included on the House page, but only on the expanded list.

I wonder what is Eurodance and accordingly what should be its Wikipedia future. Should it be listed as a derivative or subset of House? (still Leila K does not belong there). Should it be promoted to independent genre? (Then a lot of the House list goes away) Should it be considered a category under a different classification?

It felt as a forced categorization when we put together Dr Alban, Pandora, Maxx, Mr. President, 2 Unlimited, Ace of Base, and even Modern Talking under the same Eurodance label. But House seems even more inclusive. Madonna? --Luci_Sandor (talk, contribs)  10:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The Warehouse
The location given for The Warehouse club in Chicago says Jefferson Street. But I believe it was specifically 738 W. Randolph (near Halstead). I saw this address on old school flyers on the website www.deephousepage.com. So if it's okay I'll change it. - Milk 09:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Delisted GA
There are no images. slambo 17:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm confused about this comment/reason. Was this article about a musical form was removed from the Good Articles list because it doesn't have any images? What kind of images would have to be included and what kind of images would even represent House Music? Sorry if this is obvious and I'm clueless about it. Locker 10:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't Chip E!
Frankie Knuckles may not have produced the first house tracks but the genre got its name from the venue he played at. People would go to The Warehouse to dance to his music, and eventually people would refer to it as the House, and when they went to cd stores to buy the music he was playing they began to ask for House music, as in music that Knuckles would spin at the Warehouse. And then as Ron Hardy joined the scene and tracks began to be produced that started to form House as we know it the name carried on. - Bajeda


 * I thought it was Knuckles or someone else asking a venue owner/manager what the music was called...or the word developed from other DJs. --  max rspct  leave a message  01:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

--- I heard of Knuckles asking a store manager what House music was since it advertised having it, and then finding it meant music played at his venue. I got my information from "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life: The History of the Disc Jockey" in the House chapter. They have interviews with alot of House DJs including Knuckles and Chip E so thats where I got the idea. - Bajeda


 * Can you please quote from the book? We can put it in article then. I will trawl though the books I have here. Cheers --  max rspct  leave a message  23:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Music for nightclubs
Yes, the broadest common term for music in nightclubs is Club Music. It encompasses every form of dance music that gets airplay in nightclubs.

Please, make me a favour. before reverting my hard work, take a moment to read the texts that I linked from my user page. I'm not putting my personal opinion here, because i don't have any. Some of you really seem to be unaware of the most important issue in an encyclopedia: articles must be logically interconnected and not inconsistent. Now, we have dozens of well written articles on popular music genres and subgenres, but they just miss a bit of logic in definition. I'm trying to fix it. Please do not forget that slang is a bit different from official language. You cant come here and say prink-prank-dumb-whazzup-m8. Does that get into your brains? I'm only trying to make all these articles suitable for the next WP CD. Being an eclectic, that means that I love all music, I can give a neutral contribution. I can change my mind at any moment, but please let me begin my work. Do you have a better term that includes all the music genres that are played in nightclubs? This term may even be House, Techno, or whatever is reached here by consensus, I don't really care. For now I'm working on club music, it seems a good idea. Brian W 01:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC
 * They ARE logically connected and consistent right now. You, however, want to link them together under a neologism you appear to have pulled from the air and can't provide any back up for, other than your friends apparently using it. Attacking what you see as informal language when attempting to promote a non-existant "genre" to replace tens of others is hyprocisy of the highest order.
 * Additionally, you don't actually appear to know what music is played in nightclubs, because EDM is not it.
 * As goes your references - two texts by the same author, one 7, one 26 years old, do not provide a remit to invent a new genre because you want, in your eyes, a more "logical connection". --Kiand 01:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, you need to study some Logic and Linguistics, I'm not inventing anything, the term Club music is being used DJs in all Europe since 20 years ago. Any CD or vinyl record with remixed version of pop and dance songs is a proof.

Cant you understand that? Where are you from, really? Do you live in a castle outside the world or maybe you are italian? Im realizing that you either 1)are not reading at all my texts or 2) you aren't able to understand them. So, please kid, go to bed.Brian W 01:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, they said "club mix" - occasionally at that. Having a collection of vinyl from that era to this day, the usually say "dance mix". The DJs themselves have never used the term.


 * Me too, I have a collection, I began in 1978, you werent born yet, likely. They are reported as "Club edits" on covers. Do not lie here, a lot of people willrealize that what you dsay is falseBrian W 02:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In what languages, and on what record labels?. Does your collection continue anywhere close to the modern day? Considering your repeated call to use "logic", you appear to be abusing logic by trying to bridge the idea of a "club mix" of non-EDM to "Club music" == EDM. And please, use indents dammit. --Kiand 02:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And no, I'm Irish, which is exactly what my user page says. I'm neither a Nazi nor an Italian (I'm not sure how you think thats an insult, though). --Kiand 01:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I see you pretend you cant understand english. It's a typical fascist-eurocentric attitude trying to rewrite the history and hide the contribute of Americans to House and modern dance music. Kraftwerk didnt invent the House and the Techno, dont you understand that? I bought "the man machine" almost 30 years ago, and I can proof with any logical mean that it has nothing to do with house. If we want to talk about the history of synthesizers and recording methods, then it's another story, and actually some techniques of german electronic music can be found in modern dance music, not the spirit or the content. you are deliberately misunderstanding every single word I say. Brian W 02:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Repost from my talk page, again I see. Post once, not twice. --Kiand 02:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You two need to take a Wikibreak before an administrator gives you both involuntary ones. Please note WP:NPA and WP:3RR. — ceejayoz talk 19:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Logical inconsistency: House is reported both as a "subgenre" of Disco (see template), and of Electronic Music (see template). Some  "guys"  need to keep calm their exagerate ego. Brian W 03:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, you tried to claim that all those genres were "subgenres" of "Club Music", so I can't see how you were able to comprehend the possibility that something might be connected to two things at once then, and now can't. --Kiand 11:17, 19 June 2006 UTC


 * Electronic Music is an idiomatic expression that may mean, depending on the context, either the genre of academic and experimental electronic music or' the technique of performing music by mean of electronic devices; the latter, this technique, is used in any music genre. This "disambiguation" applies to many european languages such as English, German, French, Spanish, Italian. Brian W 12:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed
What statements in the article need to be cited? Hyacinth 17:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Madonna?
I was surprised to see her in the list of essential house songs. I don't really remember her song Vogue, but does it really fall under House? I would think pop would be a more accurate label, even if it has some House influences. I dunno...

(At the time of the record's release, it was heralded as House entering the mainstream by a USA Today article. Shep Pettibone was interviewed and he cut to the chase by defining house this way: "It's really Disco, but no one's calling it that".  The Four on the floor bass drum, the bass line, snare drum sequencing, and the sampled horn stabs that sound VERY much like a certain MFSB recording are all of the house ilk.  Prior to Vogue, I had heard an early Junior Vasquez track on what I think was a Warlock records compilation and it sounded very close to what would make Vogue stand out with the use of the Synth and disco-orchestral samples.  Junior is credited in the singles "Thank You"s, but no specification of what he offered is given). If you could hear the Junior track and then the Madonna, it would wipe out all doubts I assure you--Tednor 21:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, "pop" is a catch all label for any music that is popular (I'm assuming from your usage of the word). So if a House record becomes popular, does it cease to be house? (In reality "Pop" refers to the Pop vocal tradition of Sinatra, Streisand, etc.)

Sampled drums
Re: Producers using sampled drum sounds. At the advent of Chicago House music, digital samplers were yer to become affordable to the class of producer making the records. It is obvious from listening that drum machines were used for this purpose and not sampling. Regarding "filling" out the spectrum: this was acheived (by the few who sought to do so) by carefully synching the bass notes over the kick drum, just as live disco rhythm sections had done in Disco Music. One famous record not mentioned here: Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax",on which Trevor Horn used a low G from the bass right on top of the kick. Everyone assumed he had some magical drum sound but that's all it was: a G. If someone wants to put that record in I do believe it's more influential than some of the ones noted. --Tednor 22:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

House Music Declassing
I think that the main reason for the declassing of the House Music article from the Good Article List is the divergence in our point of views. I think that House Music has a different meaning for an European (including British) and for an American. I think we should do something about this... Let's start discussing! --giandrea

I agree with this point entirely. The problem seems to be that Americans think of mostly "Chicago House' and assume the genre is dead. In reality the genre has swept the world and Grown so much that it cannot be identified without a vast historical perspective.  Trying to define House is like trying to define Rock and Roll: it's a lot easier in theory than in practice.  I think a strong distinction of Chicago House is essential, as that genre is more easily identified and is the basis for all else.--Tednor 22:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Australia
Why the hell is this article on house music talking specifically about Australia and Sydney and Melbourne in the first paragraph ?? This seems irrelevent. Maybe a list of countries where house music is popular would make more sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.131.77 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Frankie Knuckles and Larry Leven
The opening of this is way off. The fact is Frankie Knuckles was the resident dj spining at the Warehouse. Then the writer includes Larry Heard, aka "Mr. Fingers" as saying House got its name because DJs were creating music in their house using simple equipment such as synthesizers and drum machines. I have heard a lot of BS but this is one of the best! I have also heard about the labeling of records, "as heard at the Warehouse". That one may hold water, but the Knuckles was spinning the stuff!

Leven should be mentioned more. He was the first choice for the Warehouse but didn't want to leave NYC. Thus he he was spinning at the Garage. And like knuckles House, Leven's became, Garage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.130.73.112 (talk) 17:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Jomanda
In the external links there is a 'Jomanda'. She is not a DJ. See this link (it points to this link as well) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomanda This is possible vandalism. (There may be a house musician/DJ with a name like that or a name which looks like that, but i am unaware of that) Thoms E. Boms. may 13, 2006
 * Some of the external links, especially WMPH and possible the others that start with an unnecessary hyphen, appear to be spam. A user has been adding them to numerous dance artists's pages.  I would suggest removing them, but given that this article receives more monitoring than the other articles I am removing them from, would like to leave this decision to someone more familiar with the article, as it is possible they are helpful and encyclopic and such. : ) --Roombalogin 04:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm your assumption that this Jomanda-reference was a case of link-spamming. Though Jomanda is a famous person in the Netherlands she has nothing to do with House music at all. There are some other names though that come to my mind who seem to be missing in the article: Brian Eno and Robert Fripp (known from the so called Frippertronics or Discotronics). I am not an expert in the music field but I remember their sound loops very well. This may be linked to minimal music. I leave it to the experts to work this out. Simon de Danser 23:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Jomanda released a regional hit record in 1991 produced by Chicago house legend Steve "Silk" Hurley. This record was release in the USA on Big Beat/Atlantic records and was a major club hit. You can garner more info here: http://www.discogs.com/release/58696 71.119.247.184 05:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Name Change To House (music)?
It would make more sense.......? Any comments in response on my talk page would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!100110100 13:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Happy House
I am glad you removed that. That is the most ridiculous speculative nonsense I have ever heard. Happy sounding house music was a natural evolution as DJs play what the crowd reacts well to, and house music crowds in the 90s wanted happy music. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Epic.group (talk • contribs) 09:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

MY Definition of House Music
Can we just change the article to read "House Music is a universal language"? Gatesofawesome! 00:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No. Andy Mabbett 09:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Seriously this article needs help
It seems from the article that the writer is either bicoastal (London-NY) or from London. It also seems they're from the "old guard" of people who were around for the birth of house, and now they're unhappy that the music and scene has changed. House is not dead. It has been resilient while many other forms of dance music have come and gone as trends. I've never heard half the terms this guy uses and for some of the early stuff maybe Ill take the word of someone who was there. But it does seem this guy took the article too far in turning it into a partial biogrpahy of his own life as a music fan.

There is almost nothing on Junior Vasquez, Shep Pettibone, Clivilles & Cole - three of the most important contributors to the evolution of modern house. I wasnt there from the beginning so I can't comment on who the most important of those people were but from Shep onward i know a lot, and no discussion of house in the 90s should be devoting any less than a paragraph to each of those three names.

There is way too much emphasis on the pre-90s stuff, which is nice to know about since it is the origins, but let's be honest with ourselves. The genre changed dramatically in the course of the 90s, and eventually reached a point where as a genre things leveled off and stabilized (what some may call a "decline" in the music, is really just a genre reaching a point where all the creative extremes have been tried, and from there what drives the genre is the artists and producers and talent instead of wild shifts in the genre overall. Many of the more enduring genres in popular music have gone through that and they are all vital and huge industries unto themselves. So the author's bias against the newer house sound may be part of why they ignore such huge parts of house music's history. Clearly they have some sort of grudge about the major label house music of the 1990s and later, but those releases are and were House Music, many of them immensely influential, and deserve to have that explained. Not only were many DJs and remixers important but so were recording artists. Ce Ce Peniston was important. Mariah Carey has been a HUGE contibutor to house music working with David Morales and getting him grammy recognition, she was working with Clivilles & Cole on her ALBUMS not just singles when very few artists were willing to take such a risk. What about Snap! and Black Box - contributions from Germany and Italy respectively. They were important too. Then there were other unsung pioneers like Reba McIntyre and Dolly Parton opening the door for country artists to do house remixes with Love To Infinity and Junior Vasquez- that CERTAINLY made an impact- getting country artists to do house! If they hadn't done that, Leann Rimes probably wouldnt have released a full fledged remix ALBUM a few years ago- but she did because others paved the foundation for her. That is the kind of stuff you need to say when you are talking about a genres' evolution!

As far as the changing club scene at the end of the 90s, there are cultural factors and some of those do belong in the article. But many of the things in this author's article appear to be speculative at best. One GLARING omission is any mention of Rudy Giuliani's 'war on nightlife' in the late 90s that put so many great clubs out of business and the impact that had on the scene in NY.

The author focuses instead on over-commercialization as some sort of reason the music wasnt as cutting edge any more, but fails to recognize that every genere of significance goes through cycles of that, such as alternative rock, jazz, pop, R&B and even Hip Hop.... which negates the notion that commercialization destroys genres or renders them less appealing. Truth be told, Freestyle would still be huge if they had kept it on the radio. They stopped playing it in clubs because there was no radio platform for it any more. You have to have mainstream to sustain the underground and vice versa. They're mutually dependent. House music is still a giant part of the music industry. They still play it in clubs. The scene has definitely changed. But its still there and it does appeal to people of any age.


 * "Seriously this article needs help" - help it, then. Andy Mabbett 09:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Madonna?
I think the list of essential house songs just needs to be bigger and more comprehensive. Vogue was house. And it really did a lot to open radio airwaves to the house sound. Vogue was huge for Shep Pettibone, and in fact, it boosted Junior Vasquez' profile as well (he's thanked in the credits on the single). So yes, Vogue does belong there. But it belongs there with about 30 or 40 more key songs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Epic.group (talk • contribs) 09:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Chicago and House Music
The Chicago section should definately include WBMX, the Hot Mix Five, Steve Hurley, Larry Heard, Marshall Jefferson and Adonis, these institutions and individuals gave this music its foundation and platform to become what it has.

Whomever edited this out before either has no idea of the significance that Chicago played in this genre of music, or has a grudge. To do a short blurb about Chicago and House Music would be akin to NOT mentioning the Bronx when discussing Hip Hop User:DJ Black Adam

--BENJI ESPINOZA 08:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Chicago Needs More Representation
There are numerous points pertaining to Chicago and House music missing from the article. Not only was House a staple of every Chicagoan on a Fiday and Saturday night, blasting from car radios on 102.7 BMX, or 107.5 WGCI, and even later on 96.3 "B"96, the word is synonomous with Chicago during the 80's and 90's, and crossed all cultural and racial boundaries.

I see no mention of Mike "Hitman" Wilson, Frankie "Hollywood" Rodriquez, Tim "Spinning" Schomer, Mario "Smoking" Diaz, Julian "Jumpin'" Perez, and Bad Boy Bill. These men should all get credit, though not part of the original Hot Mix 5 lineup, they were gifted and talented DJ's, who were on the tips of every teenagers tongues during the era.

All modern dance music, from acid to trance to rave to techno originated with the basic House beat. Going to begin adding more information about the Chicago scene as soon as time permits. peace 69.209.225.253 (talk) 21:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Factually disputable final paragraph in this article "2000s"
The first sentence of the final paragraph of this article:

"House music declined in popularity during the 2000s, due to a combination of factors."

and the overall tone of this final paragraph is factually disputable and should be re-phrased. There are no documented facts or statistics presented to confirm the validity of this paragraph. In its current state, it reads like pure opinion.

An alternative approach would be to provide documentation as to the actual popularity of the various electronic dance music styles. However, that is obviously difficult to quantify, in terms of statistical evidence. If that evidence is available it should be found. However, if it cannot, the final paragraph of the article needs to be more generic in nature, perhaps similarly as follows:

"Whereas House music has garnered increasing competition from additional electronic dance genres, like hip-hop, the overall evolution and popularity of House music has seemed to continue to this day. House music is still esteemed by many in the electronic music profession to be the most popular style of dance music, and it can still be heard in a large majority of club venues worldwide in all of its evolved forms."

It would be nice to be able to quantify the popularity of the genre, but I think that would be difficult, if not impossible at this time. As a professional House musician I have not seen a significant decline in the popularity of House music in any of the major cities worldwide. Rather, all styles of electronic dance music seem to have increased in popularity, the result of this seeming to be a change in the overall percentage representation of the various genres as opposed to a strict numerical decline in one genre over another. Furthermore, the number of House DJs continues to proliferate in ever increasing numbers.

In terms of released dance tracks, House still seems to be at the top of its game, and on any given Billboard or BBC dance chart, the majority of tracks are still House-based. The problem with trying to "pigeonhole" the popularity of House music lies in the fact that House music tends to absorb the musical styles of the other genres around it. It is an ever-evolving style of music and because of this it cannot be said to be "in decline" in any specific terms. Rather, it would be best to follow a more balanced approach to portray what is going on in the world of House music today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpleiman (talk • contribs) 21:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what you have written there is just as opinionated as the current page. I agree with you though that this section should be re-written. This section could maybe be used to document the shift in house music to the more "electro" sound that we hear today (fedde le grande, eric prydz for example) that seems to dominate the dance charts in Europe. I would say that the popularity in house music has not declined and is, in fact, having some what of a resurgence with this new wave of electro music that is being played in clubs around the country. Dave clark86 (talk) 20:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Daft Punk
i'm not an expert about house by any means, yet i was surprised to find no reference to Daft Punk in the current section. are not they the most popular house act of all time?


 * Thats a tough one- because there are so many contribuitors to house. There are the DJs, the Remixers, the artists whose music gets remixed.... and the artists who get remixed can range from Dolly Parton to Smashing Pumpkins to Gloria Estefan. So to say anyone is the most popular act is tricky- because there are so many kinds of artists and roles for them, and they all overlap, increasing their significance. It's really tough to say —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Epic.group (talk • contribs) 09:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC).


 * But aren't they at the forefront of Filter House? Hell I've even heard it called French House. Their influence can already be heard in newer smaller acts. Digitalism comes to mind.

(129.97.253.186 (talk) 05:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC))

"Other meanings"
The short paragraph about front of house doesn't belong in this article, Wikipedia articles are meant to be on single topics... but I'm undecided about where to move it to. Either start a new article (although this would be little more than a dicdef) or move it to Front of house somehow... or just remove it altogether? It's unreferenced, after all. - Zeibura (Talk) 18:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree with most things that have been said about House Music however, the term house was an atomosphere created by the Lengendary Warehouse and Frankie Knuckles, the scene is what coined the phrase. But the music, was an inspiration created from the scene. You see what pisses me off, is that back during the early beginings of the term "House Music" you had a plethora of Dj's who were just wanna be musicians (this is not to disrespect those Dj's that have always brought light to the truth). The skills that most of them possessed, was that they knew beats thats it. The true reason House Music is where it is today is due  to those same Dj's hiring gifted and talented vocalist and song writers to bring their beats to life. It wasn't Steve Hurley that made JM Silk so famous but in fact, the vocals and entertainment professionalism of Keith Nunnally was the true reason that JM Silk assisted in the entire world knowing what house music is today. Steve Hurley didn't sing or perform the songs, the vocalist did - then had to reproduce that same vocal performance and energy on stage. It's just the same for Shadows of your love! Steve didn't write and he didn't sing it or perform it. Which is indicative to why I am still doing so many performances today all over the country without help or presence of Hurley. If it weren't for Darryl Pandy, Farley would be just another Dj. Byron Stingley, Shawn Christpher, Kevin Erving, Xavier Gold, Ricky Dillard, Reggie hall and a host of other performers, are always being left out! If it wasn't for us, many of those Dj's would be nothing but beat track creators(then tell me how far they would have gone). The Artist are the true champions! Give respect where it is due, to the true inspiration of the Chicago House Music scene. It's all inclusive, you can't talk about the House Music scene without including the Artist, we are/were the formula that made/make or turned those songs into hits. Other cities promote the Artist, some promote the Producer and then the Artist. But Chicago's Dj society and it's arrogance promote themselves as if they did it all alone!! My hats off to all those who sang and performed your talent and gift all around the world to give chicago a name!

Music is my life Keith Nunnally —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.173.227.206 (talk) 20:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

First Paragraph edit
I edited the first page to reflect that House music started in Chicago, per the Chicago House article. The previous version stated that "House music is a style of electronic dance music that was developed by dance club DJs in New York in the early to mid-1970s and spread to Detroit, Chicago and eventually Europe." If as the Chicago House article states, and I've read in many other sources, house music started in Chicago, the first paragraph of the main House article should not say that House music was started by DJs in New York and spread to Detroit, then list Chicago third. Rather, I edited it to correctly state that House music started in Chicago, and was influenced by 1970s dance music played by DJs in New York. I think this is more accurately stated than the previous version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.178.20 (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

More work needed
The sentence that says, "...was developed by dance club DJs in Chicago (see Chicago house), influenced by early to mid-1970s dance music as spun by DJs in New York and spread to Detroit, New York, and eventually Europe" is confusing. It can be understood as NY->Det->NY->Eu->Chi, which doesn't seem to make sense because of NY->...->NY. So, I guess the sentence is saying NY->Chi->Det->NY->Eu. But then again this chain also has NY->...->NY, but more plausibly considering the early part of ths sentence. Could some-one who knows what the history is please re-write the text to make it clear? Thanks. Kdammers (talk) 11:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Gay black Chicago references
Another topic for the first paragraph: the inclusion of house's "gay", not just black, origins is apparently upsetting some readers, so they are demanding sources. I added one that I happened to stumble across while looking for something else. A quick Google Books search reveals quite a few others. Would someone be so kind as to check those and add more citations as appropriate? Thanks. —mjb (talk) 04:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Psychic
"In the mid-2000s, fusion genres such as electro house and dark house emerged.

As of the late 2000s, house music remains popular in clubs throughout the world."

Is the writer psychic or living in the future? :)

/a passer-by —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.151.143 (talk) 11:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't write the original sentence; I just assume it's correct that house music is popular. I just added the "As of the late 2000s". In Wikipedia articles we're supposed to qualify statements with dates and use 'as of' to make the statements be truthful no matter when the article is viewed. 2008 and 2009 are the late 2000s, just like 1998 and 1999 were the late 1990s. We're almost done with 2008 (look at a calendar), so the late 2000s is not in the future; it's right now. —mjb (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Notability of John Dahlbäck
I created the article on DJ/producer John Dahlbäck today and the notability of the subject is being questioned (the article has been deleted once today already). Granted, the article is by no means a finished GA, but I think, without being an expert, that the article at least could be an acceptable stub given his notability. Mr Dahlbäck was featured on Pete Tong's Essential Mix on October 4th, and judging by his discography I would guess he is notable enough for an article, but what do I know? Could someone from this project just make a neutral comment on the notability of Mr Dahlbäck on his article's talkpage since I'm not 100 percent certain on the notability guidelines of musicians. Thankfully, Sebisthlm (talk) 03:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC) EDIT: The article has been nominated for deletion at Articles for deletion/John Dahlbäck. Sebisthlm (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Needs more donks
There is no mention of scouse house, despite a redirection to this page. Why? Also, put a bangin' donk on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.49.65.115 (talk) 21:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Self Promotion
Deleted references to "This dance club owned by me was modeled after such-and-such." It's a MUSIC article, not a club promo! -Jack

In a similar vein, despamminated the part about Groove Junkies, which just seemed to be tacked on at the end of something totally unrelated about House Unity Day in Chicago. 207.181.203.160 (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

70s Hype...
Absolutely terrible - this article falls into the trap of hyping the 1970s! House Music itself was basically a style of music developed in the 1980s. It was not '70s. The music played at The Warehouse was not house. And House Dance was definitely not developed in the "late 1970s" as this article stated. It's a dreadful article. House Music was culturally a direct descendent of 70s Disco music. That's of great importance. But this "70s" fixation on here renders the article useless to all serious popular music scholars.

I have studied House and I can understand why some people deride Wiki when I read articles like this.

The 1970s are blown out of all proportion, and a great deal of 1960s and 1980s pop culture is wrongly attrubuted to that decade in several articles I have read on this site.

(Solidsandie (talk) 11:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC))

House Music Origins, Clear And Simple - Name Origins - Contested, Genre Early 1980s...
This little blog article interested me. It seems to contain one of the most concise basic views of how House Music came to be -

http://80sactual.blogspot.com/2009/08/beginnings-of-house-music.html

It is, unfortunately, a little critical of Wikipedia.

Solidsandie (talk) 17:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Where are the 90s?
This article lists the Chicago House era, the Summer of Love era, backtracks to pop-house, and then skips to the 2000s, and cites bloghouse like Justice as "return of house to the top 40".

What about the rise of house as the "club remix" b-sides of most commercial pop a la Masters At Work?

What about how House spawn every subgenre of electronic dance music, from speed garage to trance to tech house, progressive house, funky house, electro house, et al.?

Where are the 90s? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.179.251 (talk) 22:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

French?
It says: "It was initially popularized in mid-1980s discothèques catering to the African-American and Latino American, French and gay communities..." Does Chicago really have a burgeoning or long-established French community, or did someone add this as a joke? 98.221.131.77 (talk) 08:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it was a joke. I removed it. —mjb (talk) 06:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Missing in article: Arthur Russell (Dinosaur L)
The article does not mention Dinosaur L. Through the 80's, Kiss Me Again, as well as his Is It All Over My Face and Go Bang, were often played at the Paradise Garage. . Go Bang was released as early as 1981 (see Dinosaur L).

Any ideas how to fit this into the article. 84.58.184.30 (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * He's one of many artists whose music was played at Paradise Garage. Why single him out? —mjb (talk) 03:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The first house record - Klein & M.B.O. "MBO Theme" (1982)?
The article cites "Jesse Saunders"' "On and on"  to (potentially) be the first house record. Jesse Saunders produced his tracks 1984 and 1985 under heavy influence of the early Italo Electro Disco from 1982 and 1983 which were imported to the U.S. and played by all influential early House DJs in the U.S..

In 1982, Mario Boncaldo and Tony Carrasco, based in Milano/Italy, released the first "Klein & M.B.O." album with the track "M.B.O. Theme" on it. If you listen to this track, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4qvvh97yVU, you realize that it is pretty close to Jesse Saunders' track - but Klein & M.B.O.'s track was released two years before. You also mention the importance of Klein & M.B.O. for House Music in your "Italo Disco" article.

External Ref: Article "The first House record came from Italy - Klein & M.B.O. vs. Jesse Saunders" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marschneider (talk • contribs) 15:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * NO IT WAS NOT
 * As much as we played the MBO THEME and for that matter Dirty Talk and Wonderful, these songs are Italo. These songs did influence the genre of Chicago House Music as did Kraftwerk, Man Parrish, Lime, Doctors Cat, etc. User:DJ Black Adam 20:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Detroit Techno
For who ever felt it necessary to beef up the UK angle of House Music and to delete the Detroit Connection, GET A CLUE or ask somebody who was there. Derrick May, Juan Atkins and Kevin Saunderson were influenced by and influenced Chicago House, songs like Groovin Without a Doubt, Forcefield, Nude Photo, Strings of Life, etc are as MUCH HOUSE as they are DETROIT TECHNO.

User:DJ Black Adam 20:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Leonard "Remix" Rroy
The following was recently added to the article: "Leonard Remix Rroy, was a local DJ in Chicago back in the early 80's, who played at a small club on the South Side of Chicago,and he was the person who originally coined the phrase 'House Music'. His mother would give him her old Disco and R&B lps and he would play them at the small dance club he DJ for. He stated that the reason he called the music House was because it was music that was lying around the house.He would eventually put a sign in the window of the small tavern said 'we play house music'. Frankie Knuckles acknowledged this in a documentry named ' The History Of House Music'. Excerpts from the documentry can be seen on youtube, and Leonard Rroy can also be seen on youtube. This last reference goes in hand with the idea that as disco music began to lose popularity many club DJ's or 'House DJ's' replaced the originals with these newer stripped down versions of disco hits, still incorporating the high energy elements to create this new sound."

I removed it temporarily because it needs to be made more encyclopedic. We can't refer people to YouTube, and we need to cite reliable sources for these claims. It appears the claims only come from Rroy himself in his YouTube videos, which are not usable on Wikipedia as sources. There are also interviews with other DJs in 5 magazine which mention Rroy. In one, Chip E. says that Farley told him he first heard the term house music from Rroy. A March 2008 interview with Farley isn't posted on the site but Rroy quotes it on his MySpace profile; Farley confirms that he first heard the term from Rroy, but doesn't know where Rroy came up with it or if it had anything to do with The Warehouse. I don't mind citing both of these interviews, Frankie's comments in the Pump Up The Volume documentary, and maybe even Rroy's own statements, but it really needs to be done carefully. I'll work on it and see what I can come up with. —mjb (talk) 06:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I've now restored it, but rewritten as follows: "In the BBC documentary Pump Up The Volume, Knuckles remarks that the first time he heard the term 'house music' was upon seeing 'we play house music' on a sign in the window of a bar on Chicago's South Side. One of the people in the car with him joked, 'you know, that's the kind of music you play down at the Warehouse!'. South-Side Chicago DJ Leonard 'Remix' Rroy, in self-published statements, claims he put such a sign in a tavern window because it was where he played music that one might find in one's home; in his case, it referred to his mother's soul & disco records, which he worked into his sets."

The part about Pump Up The Volume is cited. The part about Leonard Remix Rroy is not, but should be. However, we can't cite YouTube videos, blogs or other self-published sources. Hopefully an interview with Rroy by a neutral third party will turn up. In the meantime, I think this characterization is fairly neutral and won't mislead the reader. —mjb (talk) 00:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

About external links
All the external links in this article have been removed and replaced by a link to dmoz. Other articles ( Dubstep ) have some interesting external links. Even if Wikipedia is not a directory link, some links might be seen as pedagogic. For example, the Gridface link i added ( http://www.gridface.com/tags/houseroots ) could be a good approach to understand the roots of House music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Groovenvibes (talk • contribs) 14:55, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've run across people on here who think even linking to dmoz is unencyclopedic. I think the Gridface link is a good one, but User:Dawnseeker2000 is the one who deleted it, and you should probably solicit feedback from him. —mjb (talk) 02:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Should not contain initial external link
Ideally, this link should not appear in the article at all. If someone seeks the genre mentioned in the article, they can seek out examples on their own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brvman (talk • contribs) 05:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

House music in Europe
What about german, dutch or belgian house music, these are very important house music scenes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.152.218.235 (talk) 08:00, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Definition of basical House-Rythm
I found following House-Rythm-Definition at the German Version of this Article (that seems to be more Compact but even more essential):

''House zeichnet sich durch seinen mächtigen, basslastigen Klang aus, der bei Disco in dieser Form noch nicht existierte. Der typische Sound entsteht vor allem durch die Benutzung einer entsprechend druckvollen Bassdrum, die im sogenannten „4er-Fuß“, also durchgehenden vier Schlägen pro Takt gespielt wird (auch als four to the floor bezeichnet). Besonders beliebt sind dabei die heute nicht mehr hergestellten Roland TR-808 und TR-909 Drumsequenzer. Im Unterschied zum Techno mit seinem meist geraden, maschinenartigen Grundmetrum ist House oft durch punktierte Sechzehntel (Shuffle) geprägt.''

A mostly used Add, That gives a typical House-Caracteristic to the Basic-Rythm is a snaredrum (or Rimshot, previusly quoting the sound from the TR-808 or TR-909), wich are typiccaly placed like this:

Maybe to overtake to the english Version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.15.128.31 (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree with this technical description of house music percussion, but the problem is that like pretty much all electronic music content on the German Wikipedia, it cites no sources whatsoever. We're kind of bad about that here, too, but we're really moving in the direction of paraphrasing reliable sources, as was done in the techno article and as is required by Wikipedia policy. I'm afraid that if we added an English version of the content above, it'd quickly get removed as original research. Also I think some people would argue that it's too much of a generalization to imply that all house music uses that classic pattern; since the late '90s, at least, house percussion has been more varied. —mjb (talk) 15:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

House Classics
What abowt sinth pop, downtempow, yurowrodanse, hip hop from the 80s and 90s, layet 80s disco, rave, tekno, transe, hardcore and more. This Is All House Classics too. In my erpinyen, The music name House Classics is a very big word. It just doesn't meen the classics of House Music it other things to arownd that tiyem or to do with it. If you look at a lot of House Classics Cds you see more than just House on it. Here are some House Classics Cds I will menshen. House Classics Top 100, House party seeriz, Move The House, Seeyriz, Reel Retrow House Classix seeyriz, A Retrowspectiv In House Seeyriz, House 89, House Hits 88 chek them all out this all House Music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.11.72.105 (talk) 08:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Ron Hardy
While Frankie Knuckles is rightly lauded as one of the Godfathers of House Music, Ron Hardy and the club "The Music Box" seem to have been overlooked. Frankies "Wharehouse" would be a much harder place for budding music makers to break there new material. Where as Ron hardy at the music Box was much more opem and more approachable.The Music Box would also champion the more raw tracky side of House, acid House was better recieved at the The Music Box. Ron Hardy should be given equal status in the birth of house music..unfortunately due to his early death this has never come about. So the more Soulful side of house with more production values eminated from The wharehouse and the more Raw,Jackin/darker side (including Acid House) came from Ron Hardy's Music Box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.215.14.153 (talk) 12:30, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Underground
It seems that there is no coverage at all of the so called "underground" sub-genre/movement within UK-based house music, for example the UMM records and their related artists. In general, as I'm pointing out since ... (how many years...?), sometimes this whole subject (House Music/Dance Music) is very far from being covered in a way that is truly consistent with the real world, on the contrary it seems a collection of information assembled by contributors that have no true idea of what they are talking about. best regards--Doktor Who (talk) 03:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

House music was not invented in 1988
Somebody with an axe to grind keeps changing this article and the freestyle music article to focus on house music's late-1980s displacement of electro-based trends. Were he only adding a mention of this event, it wouldn't be particularly controversial, even without cited sources. However, he persists on going much further than that, removing gobs of content, both cited and uncited, in order to support the dubious claim that house didn't even exist before 1988. Take a look one of the diffs below to see the ridiculous changes he makes. These were all made from IP addresses in the New York City area:
 * Changes to house music article on Dec. 28 from 108.14.212.26
 * Changes to house music article on Dec .28 from 108.14.212.26
 * Changes to house music article on Jan. 1 from 108.21.129.238
 * Changes to house music article on Jan. 3 from 74.108.165.114

He changed or removed all dates (even in quotations) that contradict his point of view. He removed the well-cited statement about house music's gay/Black/Latino origins. He removed the statement about house becoming infused in pop/dance music worldwide in the early/mid-'90s. He added hyperbolic, weasel-worded, unsourced claims & opinions: "Critics cite House music as the pivotal force that helped topple the modern electro sounds of the 1980s that eventually supplanted it. A new wave of style and fashion arouse from House that led to the re-emergence of the 70's disco influences of the 1990's decade. As a result, the style and music of the 80s subsequently lost its vigor and appeal." He also removed Italy, linked to the Italo House article, from the list of regional scenes. Related edits were made on the same days, from the same IPs, to the freestyle music article.

Where to even begin? Every one of these edits is unjustified. Nevertheless, his whole argument seems to be based on the idea of house not being invented until 1988. A specific date for the advent of house music isn't possible to pin down, but 1988 is way too late. Its boom in the UK, after it was already going strong in Chicago, was a 1987 phenomenon, and it's not hard to find sources to corroborate. Examples of Chicago house classics released in 1985 include "Like This", "Mystery of Love" (original versions), "Farley Knows House", "Mind Games", and "Trapped". Examples of house classics released in 1986 include "Ma Foom Bey", "It's Over", "Mystery of Love" (re-recorded versions), "Jackin' Me Around", "Your Love" (Hot Rod produced version), "Move Your Body (The House Music Anthem)", "Can You Feel It", "Let's Get Brutal"/"The Brutal House", "House Train", "The Jacking Zone", "Jack Your Body", "Bring Down The Walls", "House Nation", "Acid Tracks"...and the list for 1987 is even longer. To suggest that these aren't house tracks is ludicrous. And these are just the tracks that were released on vinyl. Before the records came out, house music productions were being played in clubs on acetates and reel-to-reel tape, and cassette mixtapes were being passed around among DJs and club patrons. The original version of Jamie Principle's "Your Love" is one of the most famous tracks distributed this way.

So I must insist to this anonymous New Yorker who apparently loves electro & freestyle and hates house & disco: please stop making these disruptive, dubious, unsourced edits. You don't have a leg to stand on, and your edits violate WP:V and WP:AWW policies. Yes, this article is somewhat of a shambles and needs a lot more work and careful research to bring it up to verifiability standards, but it's fairly stable in its current state because it avoids wild claims like "house came into existence in 1988." If you care to argue otherwise, you need to do it here and see if you can get consensus for your proposed changes. If you keep making them without seeking consensus, they'll continue to be reverted. —mjb (talk) 21:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Changing "1980s" to "1970s" On Wikipedia
Wikipedia seems to be full of people backdating things to the 1970s! It is generally agreed that House Music as a sound - the original Chicago House - began in the early 1980s - most point to 1983 as "Year Zero". However somebody had altered it to "late 1970s" in the article. It is not so! I find this with a lot of Wikipedia articles - an event from May 1980 was recently altered to May 1979, a reference to the 1980s was changed to "1970s" - what IS going on here? Why is Wikipedia so open to being tampered with by people writing their own versions of the past? I know the 1980s are not the most popular set of years with some people, but do their high points really have to be exported to the previous decade?

(Solidsandie (talk) 01:59, 28 January 2011 (UTC))


 * I don't know about what's going on in other articles, but in this instance I think it's partly due to the ambiguity of the fields in the music genre infobox. What does "cultural origins" even mean? It can be interpreted as relating to what was going on right before the genre's emergence, in which case the disco scene of the mid-/late-'70s and the backlash against it starting in 1979 could be seen as the origins. But if the cultural origins are interpreted as just the when/where/who of the genre's earliest cohesive examples, then I agree it's 1980s, not 1970s.
 * As for your claim It is generally agreed that House Music as a sound - the original Chicago House - began in the early 1980s - most point to 1983 as "Year Zero". Well, "it is generally agreed that" and "most" [people] are violations of WP:WEASEL. What specifically happened in 1983 that established house music, and where is this documented, and who said it?
 * Based on the books, magazines, and documentaries I've been exposed to, and the impressions I get from listening to a lot of music and paying attention to the dates it came out, I would say mid-, not early 1980s is the best thing to say. It's vague enough that it could mean anything between 1983 and 1987. Even if it's interpreted as 1984 to 1986, that's fine, too. I just object to "early" because that suggests a range of 1980 to 1983. I think that's misleading. It wasn't until 1984 that Chicago DJs started making original electronic productions that mimicked the kind of disco edits & selections that were popular in Chicago clubs. It wasn't until 1985 and 1986 that the classic motifs solidified and were clearly identifiable, at least on wax. —mjb (talk) 05:09, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The Channel 4 documentary on House Music - Pump Up The Volume, which appeared to be very well researched and contained interviews with pivotal House music purveyors, pointed to 1983 as "year zero" for the House sound. This does seem to have been taken up by people I have discussed it with. "Most" point to Year Zero as being 1983 in my experience. The relentless backdating of things to the 1970s is a problem I regularly encounter on Wikipedia. In the case of House Music, surely we are talking about the sound, not the climate which contributed to it? That is covered in the article anyway, which it should be, but does not detract from the dating of the origins of the sound. As for House simply being a result of the "backlash" against disco, I don't agree with that. The affordable technology emerging on which music could be made in the early 1980s and experimentation also had a great bearing on the origins of House. I do agree with you that "early" does not seem quite right, but then again it does appear to have witnessed the first faint flickerings.

(Solidsandie (talk) 12:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC))


 * I agree re: affordable music-making technology being a crucial factor (and it being a mid-'80s phenomenon); I was just trying to guess at what the reasoning might be for saying the 1970s are part of house music's "cultural origins".
 * I'm going to rewatch the Channel 4 documentary this week and will see what I can glean from it. I'm fine with using it as a source for things that the interviewees said, as long as we characterize them here like "so-and-so says..." rather than assuming they're authoritative.—mjb (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Something I have come across many times on Wikipedia is a tendency to list 1980s happenings or inventions as 1970s - or occasionally 1990s. I do believe that this reflects a bias against the '80s decade. It is not only a Wikipedian problem - watch the BBC's "I Love The 1970s" or cruise the web and you will find many examples of 1960s and 1980s pop culture/inventions falling into the 1970s. There have been accusations of the 1970s revival being largely built on importing material from the adjacent decades - and of writers playing "heroes and villains" with past decades - 1970s = Good, 1980s = Bad. In the process, reality is left far behind.

I note that the article now traces the origins of the House Music sound to 1983. Although I believe it was "Year Zero", I am still happier with the origins being attributed to the "early 1980s" rather than to any one year.

(Solidsandie (talk) 23:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC))

Recent changes - Some Concerns...
I really do believe that the article is now becoming a very readable and dependable history of House music. Two recent additions concerned me:

1) The assertion in the opening paragraphs that House was generally considered to be influenced by "late 1970s disco". Surely, House was influenced by disco in general, (just as disco was influenced by...) and a variety of other musical styles?

2) Some apparent musings (un-sourced) about modern House music producers and how they view the origins of House today - which I don't think is relevant to the opening section of the article on House, where we are looking at the factual origins, not what people think today.

I have removed these comments as I think they rather muddy the clarity of the opening section.

All-in-all, thanks to everybody that has made this article such a fascinating read. I particularly appreciate the fact that the crucial importance of early 1980s musical devices are given full coverage in tracing the origins of House music.

It is so good to see such efforts at accuracy here, and has raised my opinion of Wikipedia considerably.

(Solidsandie (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC))

Underage clubs
A 1990 Melody Maker article says, regarding something Keith Allen (Lily Allen's father) said at the 1990 New Music Seminar, ''The early years of House are quickly recounted—how Frankie Knuckles, Farley Jackmaster Funk, Jessie Saunders and others created the music in under-age, non-drinking clubs in Chicago and how it struggled and struggles still because record companies see it as a producers' medium and are not willing to invest in what they consider to be a string of one-hit wonders. Then Wilson picks up the story, citing Mike Pickering in Manchester and Graham Park in Derby as the DJs who brought this music to Britain in 1986/7.''—

Emphasis mine. Allen, whose role on the panel was comic relief, was probably just reading or paraphrasing something Tony Wilson had come up with, but I'm wondering how true it is. This is the first mention I've seen of an underage, alcohol-free(?) club scene in Chicago, and I'd like to get it into the article if we can. Which clubs were "under-age, non-drinking" venues, and which producers were spinning there? Were they spinning there at the time they started making their original productions? Any other references anyone can point to would be appreciated.

Also, that Melody Maker article is worth reading for Tony Wilson and Derrick May's shouting match. Wish I could've been a fly on the wall there. —mjb (talk) 09:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Self-contradictory
I added the template because this article says that house has no direct predecessor genre, but that it is descended from disco. My understanding is that house is post-1981 disco that weathered the backlash against disco. So which it is? - Gilgamesh (talk) 10:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

As House music was so heavily influenced by the emerging music technology of the early 1980s, I don't believe that it was a descendant of disco. Influenced yet, sampling, yes, but not directly descended.

I have altered the text, which was somewhat confusing, and removed the template. House was certainly not simply Disco which "weathered the backlash".

(Solidsandie (talk) 11:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC))
 * Reading that sentence then reading the paragraph about Frankie Knuckles really DOES still seem like a contradiction, sorry. House music could still be descended from disco even if it descended from it in a new way, through sampling and through night clubs that used to play disco playing a more hi-tech version. "It is considered by some" is a bad phrase to use in a Wikipedia article. - file lake  shoe  10:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

The Electro House page is gone!
[comment moved from top of page] Just wanna know what happen to the Electro House page. When I type it in I end up here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.30.33 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 11 November 2011‎ (UTC)
 * See previous topic. You need to find some reliable, published sources about electro house. Summarize and cite them. No one has done this yet. —mjb (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources - Different Numbers, But All The Same?
Look at the number of sources which lead to one particular essay - 4 to 2 and 14 to 18.

http://www.allmusic.com/explore/style/house-d10

Seems rather odd to me! Also, far too much about disco and its "influence" here - including some repetition, which I've removed. Article appeared to have a strong agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.211.140 (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

No "Post Disco Movement Off-Shoot".
I have recently reverted changes in the article which relegate House Music to a "post disco off-shoot". I'm afraid this seems to be, once again, an incident of 1970s hype. There was no "post-disco movement" in the early 1980s, and the creation of House was greatly influenced by the arrival of new music technology arriving on the scene in the early '80s. I do feel that certain contributors are trying to down-play the importance of House music, and the organic spirit in which it was born. After all, would Wikipedians call Disco a "post Motown/Soul off-shoot"?

(Solidsandie (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC))


 * Removed that, I didn't mean that it was born out of post-disco, all I was saying was that it was part of a sort of movement in the early 80s labelled as 'post-disco'. I understand it was confusing - what I meant was that post-disco was a label to describe any sort of music which came after disco and was based on its roots, such as boogie, electro, dance-pop, etc. Anyway, the other info was fine.--&#38;レア (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. I recall no music called "post-disco" back then. I think you are being very unobjective about disco.

(Solidsandie (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC))


 * I have no disco bias, if that's the point you are trying to prove. Post-disco started in the early 80s, alongside house, boogie, dance-pop, etc. When disco started to grow out of fashion by the late-70s, new genres based on disco started to emerge with their own adaptations - post-disco was free-form and electronic, dance-pop was, as the name suggests, dancey and mainstream-oriented, and house, as one of these genres, was more rhythmic, repetitive and beat-based. Basically, post-disco, house, boogie and similar genres originated in part from disco, considering disco, in the dance hemisphere, was arguably one of the most influential genres in recent history. House is a totally different genre to disco, thus, I reply once again stating that in no ways I want to prove that house is simply a disco or post-disco off-shoot. As you rightly said, that would be like saying disco was an off-shoot of soul, or rock and roll an off-shoot of rhythm and blues/country. But, when it comes to disco's influence on house, it is undeniable and very clear. If you listen to house, the rhythms, style, everything is very, very disco-based (just like most dance music from the 70s onwards, with the exception of more dubstep/drum and bass-esque genres), but personal views aside, the sources prove it. To conclude, I believe that it is right to state disco's influence on house, yet, in no ways am I promoting that house was merely a subgenre of disco. All genres are influenced by other forms of music, and house is no exception.--&#38;レア (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Regarding the term 'post-disco', I have no idea whether the actual term was used back in the early 1980s; being born many years after this period, and raised in a different period, I do not possess the knowledge of whether the actual term was used. To be honest, I think that back in the time, 'dance' or 'club' were probably the terms used to describe post-disco. Nevertheless, whatever it was called back in the time, music evolving from disco which took out the orchestras, put in the synthesizers, changed the song structure and made it far more producer-oriented, is now regarded as post-disco.--&#38;レア (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * there was a discussion about use of the term "post-disco" here some time ago. The term is generally not used to describe a specific genre of music, but house could be described as "a form of post-disco dance music made popular in the mid-1980s in Chicago clubs..." (Haggerty, Gay histories and cultures: an encyclopedia, Taylor & Francis, 2000, p 256). House is undoubtedly a direct antecedent of disco, see Fikentscher (2000), "You better work!": underground dance music in New York City, Wesleyan University Press, 2000. --Semitransgenic (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Citations Needed
Hi. Some citations need filling. Dated FEB 2012. I'll leave the info up for 2 months for someone to fill.Danceking5 (talk) 01:25, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Removing "genre"
Please can the contributor who removed the word "genre" from the article provide detailed reasoning before doing so again? Many popular forms of music are described as "genres" on Wikipedia. Why is House a "form of music, electronic dance music"? After all, not all electronic dance music is house.

(Solidsandie (talk) 22:02, 10 April 2012 (UTC))

Where's article about electro house?
Why article about electro house is disappeared and united with the whole article about house music? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.44.253 (talk) 21:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Electro house is probably the most popular and prominent type of house music right now (at least in the US), and it used to have an excellent page of its own. It absolutely deserves its own spot on Wikipedia. If Electro Swing has its own page, why was that of Electro House, which is an order of magnitude more popular, removed?

Fatfscott (talk) 03:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Would anyone like to help me make a new page for electro-house, since it obviously deserves one?--Jakeriederer (talk) 22:06, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * it most likely got pulled because it was a very poor article, it lacked sources. why not start a sub-section in this article that is properly sourced, then break-out to a full article when there is enough content to do so.--Semitransgenic (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Electro house. The problem with this article was that the meaning of "electro house" keeps changing every few years. That's why there aren't any reliable sources solely about the genre. The passing mentions of electro house in every article about Deadmau5 and every 4 year old article about Booka Shade could probably justify a section here. - file lake  shoe  11:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A lot of what folks in America call "electro-house" is what many in the UK and Europe called "tech-house" at one point, go back and look at what they were calling tech-house, and a lot of it sounded like old-skool techno (a Chicago/Detroit hybrid), but that's neither here nor there. There are enough sources out there to form the basis of a sub-section at least e.g. this Mixmag interview with Eric Prydz, the editors interested in this topic just need to be more proactive about pulling them together.--Semitransgenic (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah good idea! We should probably start a sub section, then gradually make it into its own article? Who would like to help, guys? --Jakeriederer (talk) 17:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering we have a complextro house page (which could use some work), which is a sub-genre of electro house, we should definitely work on an electro house page. Maybe combine it with the complextro page? -R4c7 (talk) 03:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by R4c7 (talk • contribs) 03:20, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Care during clean-ups - all yours
This is what it said before I started cleaning up the article:

"first in Chicago circa 1984, then in other locations such as New York City, New Jersey, Toronto, Montreal, London, Detroit, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Miami. It then reached Europe, and since the early to mid-1990s, it has been infused in mainstream pop and dance music worldwide."

This is what I changed it to:

"first in Chicago circa 1984, then in other locations such as New York City, New Jersey, Toronto, Montreal, London, Detroit, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Miami. Since the early to mid-1990s, house music has been infused in mainstream pop and dance music worldwide."

I changed it because, as it stood, it linked house music reaching Europe with main-strain pop in Europe in the mid-1990s, without discussing the in-between years. House music was long entrenched in the Western and Central European music scenes by the time it infused mainstream pop in the mid-1990s.

I did not "remove accurate information." I removed inaccurate information and began a clean-up in preparation for expanding and adding sources to the article.

I'm okay with not editing the article, though. Pseudofusulina (talk) 02:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The order of cities may be incorrect, you guys may want to look into it. I believe the order was: Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, New York...and so on. From what I recall only Tony Humphries was playing the VERY early House, and on the radio mostly, ask Joey Beltram. Lastly, I'm not sure if the yellow Mitchbal vinyls and the black Precision records were floating around in New York as much as they were in Toronto. Don't quote me on this though. From what I recall, New York got on board in 1986 more so. Tony Humphries may have had a source in Chicago or Toronto to get the vinyls. I don't know. I also remember reading somewhere that before Todd Terry came on the scene, New York was kind of in a dead spot after disco died out. I do know that in 1984-1985 the black label vinyls from Larry's plant were in Toronto overnight being played at venues like the Twilight Zone.Danceking5 (talk) 08:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think we can find citations to back up the order of cities, or even to justify all the ones currently named. Sadly, if it's not mentioned in a library-accessible work, it's as if it didn't happen.
 * The early-July '86 Billboard article cited in the lead makes no mention of house being outside of Chicago at that time, although the fact that there were house records coming out of NY in 1986 suggests it was already there. As for Toronto, some web searching reveals mentions of The Twilight Zone playing house in '86, as well as several Toronto DJs saying in their bios (perhaps only semi-truthfully) that's when they first heard house. The same search for 1985 doesn't yield much of anything (except a dubious claim that Derrick May and Alton Miller played original tracks at Twilight Zone in '85).
 * I always take these kind of remembered dates with a huge grain of salt, especially for something like this, where there's some street cred to be gained by saying that you were into something before it got really popular. I think that often, people "remember" things happening about a year sooner than it really happened. May & Miller probably did spin at Twilight Zone, but if there were original tracks being played, it was almost certainly '86 if not '87. Also I think people who want to say they were into house before it was popular like to stretch the definition of house to include whatever synth-pop and industrial/EBM records they were hearing and spinning in the mid-'80s, any record with a four-on-the-floor kick drum. So when I see these DJ bios I really don't think they're citable. We need to find more things written in the '80s and very early '90s, when house wasn't as big as it is today. Unfortunately dance music is considered so ephemeral, it doesn't get written about much until years later.
 * Really, I feel listing all the cities is just way too much detail for the lead. It can go in the body of the article somewhere. I'll try to find the time to make edits to the effect. —mjb (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey - I'll try to help out by posting some citations over the summer, I just don't have the time right now to do that level or research. But to answer your question, yes, in was played in Toronto in 1985. But As far as the other cities, other than Detroit (which probably entailed it being played in someones basement), 1985 might be too early. But let me check the book I read it in. And yes, people do like to turn back the clock. It somehow makes them seem more 'notable' as Wiki likes to call it. Your right about DJ bios, many of them turn back the clock. They do it again, as I said, to sound more 'notable'...or to imply like they were before someone else. House in many ways is like a little schoolyard boy fight...bitchiest DJs in the House scene LOL!!! "I got here first" "it's mine" kind of thing. You'll have trouble finding anything written in the early 1980s. I think you should list the cities, but just the ones in the mid-west, that actually had scenes that early.Danceking5 (talk) 08:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

This should be Good Article status.
Just sayin', alot has progressed on this page throughout the years. Dubstep gets a good article - what about House Music? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.21.95.140 (talk) 21:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You're kidding, right? The article is a hot, redundant, poorly organized, poorly cited mess. It is good in parts, but needs some serious editing. —mjb (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * It would be quick failed because of the OR tags.--  SabreBD  (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been looking this article over and trying to work out what could be done to bring it up to at least the claimed B status it has been given. I have to agree with Mjb's assessment: there are some good sections here, particularly at the beginning, but it deteriorates into irrelevancy, OR and unsupported disorder. I think that the only way forward is some mass removal of the unsourced sections. However, it is a waste of time trying to do that if every editor with an interest in a sub-scene or sub-genre is likely to charge in to restore or re-add. In short this would need a pretty clear consensus here and some regular editors willing to hold the line on quality. So is there any support here for such a move?--  SabreBD  (talk) 08:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think instead of a mass removal, you should add the citation request tag, and give 2 months for editors to add any citations they may have not included. The 2 month rule seems like enough time, and especially because the information is not harming anyone.Danceking5 (talk) 09:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am fine with that, except that most are already tagged and have been for some time. I can go and tag the rest but it will start to look pretty annotated.--  SabreBD  (talk) 09:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Article opening rewritten... Now Reverted
I was surprised this evening to find that the opening of the article on House Music had been substantially altered. I have taken great interest in this article and think that Wiki Eds could take some pride in it as it was an accurate, concise history of house music, its origins as a distinct genre of electronic music, and its precursors. I was surprised to discover that the opening had been rewritten in a way I found highly confusing and emotional. Enthusiasm for a subject is wonderful, and I'm sure motivates many of us Wiki folk, but this simply quoted other sources directly (not linked) and featured subjects covered in-depth further into the article in a way I found disorganized and confusing. I have tried to revert the article to what it was yesterday, but have lost some of the links.

I think we must remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and I know most of us do, and that wholesale rewritings of particular sections, no matter how well intentioned, can damage the overall value of an article as a source of reliable information.

(Solidsandie (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2012 (UTC))


 * Please check the history more carefully next time. Last night, another user tried to again delete all mention of house music's roots in Chicago's gay & mixed, Black & Latino club scene. Their edit was reckless; they actually cut halfway into a quote that was part of a citation, not part of the article text. The result was that the remaining portions of the quote became part of the article. This is the text you objected to. I have now reverted the article to the state it was in yesterday, before the disruptive edit by 70.78.198.182. —mjb (talk) 03:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Terribly U.K.-centric
It's hard to take any article on house music that devotes less than a sentence to Larry Levan or Shep Pettibone remotely seriously. There's not even a mention of David Cole, David Morales, Jellybean Benitez, Danny Tenaglia, Louie Vega, just to mention a few of the many glaring omissions. I find it ironic that an article that at one point comments on UK clubs refusal to hire black DJs then proceeds to nonchalantly whitewash the history of a music genre with long and abiding roots in black, latino and gay urban US communities. Maybe it would be worthwhile to separate this page into US house and European house; since as an hispanic New Yorker who has spun house since 1993 and danced to it since the days of the Garage and later Sound Factory, I can't say I recognize the music and culture I've loved for almost 20 years in the text of this article. -J.T. 66.30.27.69 17:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thats because your lookin in the wrong article for Jellybean... go look at Freestyle house. As for the rest they are mentioned in other sub-genre articles.  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 02:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think he is referring to the "Ministry of Sound" kind of House, Ibiza style, the one we get here in Europe and that is very spread, played in all the clubs. My vision of house music is very far from the one I see in the article, and I am all for dividing the article in European House and U.S. House, two genres that, I believe, have totally diverged. Andrea G.
 * Well again when you say Euro vs US theres multiple different styles... Ibiza style = mostly Trance/Tech Trance ... MoS style is mostly Hard House/Speed Garage ... Then theres late 90s-Modern Euro (think stuff like Captain Hollywood Project)... This is why we have things like List of electronic music genres hell in the House subcategory I see 23 subgenres!!! Theres just too damn many subgenres to mention every freakin major dj in this article. Some people are just going to have to be disappointed that their favorite DJ isnt listed.  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 20:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I totally disagree that the Ibiza style is different from the MoS style. Most of the clubs in Ibiza and Formentera, as well as in Italy (Milan and Rimini, Riccione), as well as in Greece (Mykonos, Santorini) play the music that you find in the MoS Ibiza compilations, and they call it house. It is different than Trance/Techno, that you can still find in Ibiza and in Italy, but it is not to be confused with House. It's different, perhaps your view of the matter is influenced by your experience in the USA, or wherever you live. --Andrea G.
 * Also, being a Dutchman myself, I can't believe there's no mention at all of the Dutch rise in dance/house music, which by the mid 90's was one of the most influential in Europe, and globally for that matter, and still is today. Where's Jaydee, Speedy J, and all the others? Anglosaxon-centric imho. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.56.88.144 (talk) 18:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
 * I agree that the article is it now stands is biased towards the UK and US. The purist might argue that house was an anglo style, but as house has now become a generic label for all electronic dance music, I think that attention or at least a mention should be made of all the strands contributing to its development. To my mind the most glaring omission year is any reference to New Beat, which became immensely popular and influential in the late eighties/early nineties in much of northern Europe. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 22:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Who the hell says house music was an "Anglo style"? House music originated in the American city of Chicago among blacks mostly. B-Machine (talk) 15:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

808, Akai samplers, Atari running Cubase ver 1 to 3 and Steve Reich
The development of House music was tied into technology in a similar way that the Fender Jazz bass influenced 1960s soul music and propelled disco and funk basslines into the 1970s.

The arrival of early drum machines (Kraftwerk) and the even earlier tape manipulation by Steve Reich ("Different Trains"), the arrival of home computers (BBC Micro and the Atari) and samplers and sequencers like Cubase are all relevant to the development of the genre. Production values in the days of the Fostex and Tascam 4 track home machines was really low and most demos done in bedrooms would've not been releasable. The arrival of home computers, early digital sequences and drum machines allowed small or home studios to now produce higher quality music. I don't know if anyone here ever tried to use the sequencer on a Korg M1 in the 1980s - I did and it was a very tedious process, non-intuitive and absolutely maddening but it was Midi.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that Midi and associated technology (including the even earlier use of DJ decks - Kool Herc needs a mention) really opened the doors for House music. Go back a decade and listen to Rappers Delight and that is not a sample but the group Positive Force hired by Sugarhill Records to recreate the "Good Times" track by Chic. Though rapping and hip hop had emerged from DJs using decks live to mix previously recorded material in the main dance studios still relied on musicians to recreate tracks that's why Doug Wimbish and Skip McDonald were in demand for Grandmaster Flash et al. Wimbish and McDonald relocated to the UK and released records as part of On-U Sound system - this was the dance music (at least in the UK ) that preceded Acid House. I digress - basically the opening of the article needs to include some details on technology, DJ mixing, Kraftwerk and the rise of the digital home or small studio. Dance music could now be created by one person on a limited budget with production values that were of a high enough standard to allow releases. Steve Reich should also get a mention very early on since what he did with tape and looping was seminal and so influential on later musicians. Chicago House did have the biggest influence across the world but in the UK we were also listening to Belgium Nu Beat and other Euro Electronica influenced stuff (Front 242 comes to mind) and this wasn't because of Chicago House - it was parallel to that.

Here's a link to a very informative article that details the technology and even includes a Frankie Knuckles set list from 1979:

A highly detailed article on Early House Music

I'm off now to do a Blues article (usually unattended articles and easier to write) and best of luck to all the editors involved with this article since dance music articles are very difficult to write especially considering the genres worldwide appeal and cultural convergence.

Sluffs (talk) 15:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

House and Garage, not Garage House!
One of the things that has concerned me in recent weeks is attempts to link this page to another Wikipedia page called "Garage House". Back in the 1980s, House became a genre of electronic dance music and achieved great success. During the late 1980s/1990s, I recall hearing about Garage, but it was a separate style - references were made to "House and Garage" (I also remember something called "Shed" in the 1990s!). I am surprised that Wikipedia now carries an article called "Garage House" as such a genre certainly never existed back in the day. House sprang from Chicago, Garage from New York, but they were not regarded as the same style, no matter how much one may have been influenced by the other. I'm concerned that the accuracy of this article is suffering because of the title of the "Garage House" article (which has as its main reference a site which simply lists tracks and uses that title). Garage and House are not one and the same thing. If Garage now exists under the House umbrella (and its early importance has never been disputed) that is one thing, but to rewrite the past is quite another. Great pains have been taken with the House music article, influences and precursors are examined, the early scene, and so on. I would hate to see it rendered inaccurate by the "Garage House" nonsense.

(Solidsandie (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC))

Regarding: 24.213.166.20 - Issues
Please review revision history. I have tried to communicate with 24.213.166.20 (talk) but to no avail. I'm concerned that the accuracy of the article is suffering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.113.119 (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Authors with strong opinions - Simon Reynolds as an example
Large alterations were made to this article today, and the source listed for the information was just one! I have reverted. When information is included from a single author, please can editors include the fact that the facts are "according to" one particular person, in line with encyclopedic practice. Similarly, repetition had occurred here, and some of what was recently written was somewhat emotive. Can we please keep objective? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.88.214 (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)