Talk:Hybrid vehicle drivetrain

Readability
This article has good information, but it is not very readable for the average person. I'm working on rewriting and moving some of the sentences so that non-engineers or mechanics can better understand how a hybrid car works. Zojj 06:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Article name
Anyone else think we should move this to Types of hybrid vehicles (plural) or maybe Hybrid vehicle types? Zojj 06:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I was actually going to suggest that it be changed to something to the effect of petroleum-electric hybrid types. Especially since the hybrid vehicles article is intended to encompass any kind of hybrid vehicle, not jjust gas/electric types. Improbcat 00:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There is already an article Petroleum_electric_hybrid_vehicle which contains the information mainly on the type of hybrid cars most people expect. Therefore hybrid vehicles has more space for info on other types.--Theosch 08:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How about Types of Hybrid Drivetrains? This seems to fit the content of the article. As it focuses on the mechanical underpinning of various hybrid vehicles. Improbcat 13:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Or better yet Hybrid Vehicle Drivetrains That makes clear it is about vehicles, and specifically the drivetrains and is much shorter without the 'types of' part which really isn't needed. Improbcat 05:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconded, for Hybrid vehicle drivetrains. Zojj 04:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer Hybrid vehicle drivetrain (in singular). --Altermike 06:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Except that the article is specifically about the various different drivetrains, so using drivetrain in the singular is both grammatically incorrect and potentially misleading. Improbcat 14:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Intro Needs Rewrite
The content of the article is very good, but the intro is lacking at present. It only mentions fuel (petroleum, even further limiting) based hybrid electrics, while the article covers the gamut from those to plug-in hybrids and human-powered hybrids. Need a better, more general/encompassing definition in the intro to serve this article. - Ageekgal (talk) 15:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Combined hybrid?
The technology described in this section describes a parallel hybrid in that the ICE engine and the electric motor are both engaged! This appears to be a marketing term rather than a technical term. --Treekids (talk) 17:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Hybrid history
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1979-07-01/An-Amazing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1977-11-01/Can-This-Transmission-Really-Double-Your-Cars-Mileage.aspx http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1978-03-01/This-Car-Travels-75-Miles-on-a-Single-Gallon-of-Gasoline.aspx Where's the auto industry been these past 30 years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizzybody (talk • contribs) 08:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

100% fuel economy
We have this sentence:"results in 80%–100% gains in fuel economy". Could we be more precise here, as a 100% gain in fuel economy could be interpreted as needing no fuel. Does it actually means "uses half the amount of fuel"? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

System efficiency
Ladies or Sirs.

Many charts on drivetrain efficiencies are nice. However in the consideration of global warming and conservation they are very misleading.

Do you know of a source that has a similar chart comparing the total fuel needed to supply and transmit the electrical energy from its source.

For example:

Compare the burning of gasoline in the car engine to the burning of a similar gasoline fuel at the electric plant with the attendant generator, transformer, transmission line, more transformer losses before it every gets to charging the battery. My estimates are that you would burn ten times the gasoline or other fossil fuel for the electric system. There seems to be a big lie here.

Am I wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Micklb65 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * it would take at least 20% more btus. however it can be coal or atomic or water power.Wdl1961 (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You are wrong. Firstly, electric power transmission systems are more than 10% efficient. Secondly, this article discusses hybrids, not "wall-plug" recharged electric cars. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Mild vs assist hybrid
These two sections describe the same thing. And in the usual Wikifoggy way, the section on "assist" hybrids says it's not about "mild" hybrids, without giving the reader a hot clue as to what the difference is. Can these two sections be merged as synonymous. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed! The term "assist hybrid" is by most current hybrid conventions a form of "mild" hybrid.These two sections should be merged under the heading "Mild Hybrids" where the least significant (in terms of assist) would be the Silverado PHT/FAS, then the BAS and followed by the Eco-Assist used by Honda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WopOnTour (talk • contribs) 20:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Series hybrid section is marketing
this same redundant and speculative section on series hybrids was posted on other hybrid pages, it is not good information and highly suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.53.214.5 (talk) 14:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC) The Chevrolet Volt is a parallel hybrid, not a series hybrid. GM announced this late in the pre-production phase. Both the ICE and the electric motors drive the wheels at some point.
 * Shows how much you don't know about the Volt.The Volt IS NOT a "parallel hybrid". The Volt operates as a pure-series hybrid during the vast majority of it's operation in charge-sustaining (extended-range) mode. The "minor" exception being when it is operated at very high speeds where the application of a clutch pemits the ICE to contribute torque to a planetary gearset, the net result of which results in the speed reduction of the traction motor. Under these temporary parallel conditions the traction motor maintains it's function as the primary source of motive power. The ICE alone cannot provide motive power in the Volt as it does on series-parallel hybrids suchj as the Prius. WopOnTour (talk) 23:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The Volt is a series-parallel hybrid. It was intended to be a series hybrid, but didn't turn out that way. The definition of a series hybrid is one where the engine is not mechanically connected to the wheels under any operating condition. IJB TA (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The "power split" or "series-parallel hybrid" directly below is pretty well a precise description of the Volt.. Most of the advantages of the serial hybrid are gone - it still has a normal size engine, transmission etc. The advantage of the series is it can have a much smaller generator running at ideal rpm. The only car I can find is the Fisker Karma but I've seen mention of others that I'm trying to lock down. GregA

Not Applicable

 * The engine to a mechanical automatic shifting transmission efficiency is approximately 70%-80%. A conventional mechanical clutch transmission, has an engine to transmission efficiency of 98%. In a series-hybrid vehicle, during long-distance high speed highway driving, the combustion engine will need to supply the majority of the energy, in which case a series-hybrid may be 20%-30% less efficient than a parallel hybrid.

The 70-80% efficiency cited for an automatic transmission doesn't apply in the high-speed case cited. In that high-speed case, the ICE can be clutched in through a fixed gear.

The variance in ICE efficiency relative to speed(rpm) is a separate point; but surely, a fixed gear clutched to the ICE can be chosen to optimize ICE efficiency for use in that high-speed range. Lonestarnot (talk) 19:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * In a series-hybrid vehicle the ICE is never "clutched in", it's just run as a generator, which on high speed highway driving is less efficient than a parallel hybrid. (GregA) 59.167.172.39 (talk) 22:39, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Reduced Engine Life
In the section `Electric-internal combustion engine hybrid` it states that frequent starting/stopping will reduce the lifespan of the engine considerably. I believe this is a conclusion from the sentence `since it is upon startup that the majority of engine wear occurs` which would be true of a cold start after an engine has been unused. I don`t believe it`s true for an engine that starts frequently ie:warm and lubricated before starting. It may be that the reverse is true, fewer hours on the engine extends its life. I added the dubious tag Dougmcdonell (talk) 01:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

No such thing as a "series hybrid"
Until either an automobile manufacturer or distributor starts using the term "series hybrid" I suggest deleting the concept from this article. I have no idea what it means, the article does not help, and I've been unable to find a seriously reputable source that defines the concept.

For example is the Toyota Mirai a series hybrid, or even a hybrid at all? Neither Toyota, nor Toyota distributors, nor the members of Facebook's Toyota Mirai Owners Group refer to the Mirai as a hybrid of any kind. The Mirai uses some but not all of the components of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive but that doesn't make the Mirai itself a hybrid.

Until Toyota starts calling the Mirai a hybrid I remain unconvinced that it is one, or that there is such a thing as a "series hybrid". Vaughan Pratt (talk) 06:38, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Did they disable search on your computer?, here's the result of one google search. http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/series-vs-parallel-drivetrains Read and learn. The Chevrolet Volt is, very nearly, a pure series hybrid.Greglocock (talk) 11:33, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

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"Rechargeable"?
The column titles on the table at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Types_by_degree_of_hybridization are confusing. All of these types are "Rechargeable". Is the last column meant to indicate something like "Externally Rechargeable", or "Plug-Rechargeable"? DKEdwards (talk) 21:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Chevy volt primarily a series hybrid
Labeling the Volt as a series hybrid is a gross misinterpretation. It has a planetary gear set fed by the ICE and two motors allowing it change output ratios without a traditional transmission. This is a parallel hybrid using a planatery similar to the Prius. 2601:648:8980:3579:461C:7FFF:FE3E:ED2C (talk) 05:23, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Nope. Volt uses an unusual architecture due to not invented here syndrome, or possibly to avoid paying licensing fees to Toyota and Ford. There is one mode of operation mentioned in the patent where it becomes a parallel powerflow, but nobody has been interested enough to find out whether that made it into production. Greglocock (talk) 06:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
 * That's true of the Gen 1 Volt, but the Gen 2 uses a 2-mode power split system (essentially the same configuration as the Allison bus transmissions, or the input split, "2nd gear", and compound split modes of the old GM pickup/SUV hybrids). Bhtooefr (talk) 10:28, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Splitting power-split and series-parallel sections?
I noticed that someone described the Honda Accord (ninth generation) hybrid on its infobox as a power-split, linking to this article's section on power-split and series-parallel hybrids. (I've gone with fixing it up as describing it as serial with a paralleling clutch, but that's not ideal.)

However, while series-parallel has been used as a term to describe power-split transmissions, as they do have both series and parallel paths used simultaneously, the series-parallel term could also be used to describe multi-mode systems that operate in both pure-series and pure-parallel modes (with a clutch to connect the engine to the wheels at a fixed ratio), like those used by the Chevrolet Volt (first generation)/Cadillac ELR, |Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, and the various i-MMD/e:HEV Hondas.

Those are fundamentally distinct from power-splits, and there may be some confusion introduced by having series-parallel be just treated as another name for power-split. Bhtooefr (talk) 10:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)