Talk:Indian roller

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Okay let's roll with this one...
Okay let's try and buff this one (what inspired the choice of this one?) - would be good to get a subcontinent bird species Featured. Maybe and  can help Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:16, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd like to help too. This one has been on my watchlist for ages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:28, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I was inspired to do this one because of exactly what you said. I wanted to do an Indian bird and thought about the Indian peafowl but that would be a bit much. I'm going to work on turtle as so it would be better to do an easier article alongside it. Anyway, do you have any book recommendation? LittleJerry (talk) 22:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

, we need to replace some of the very old sources. Several are pre-WWII. LittleJerry (talk) 12:18, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Which ones you mean? In any case, lets discuss this also with : you most likely added them years ago? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not see any issues with keeping old references, unless the facts themselves have subsequently been questioned. In fact some old descriptions tend to be better as those references were meant for museum workers as opposed to what is given in field guides - and meant merely for distinguishing / identification. Shyamal (talk) 13:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with Shyamal - let's take sources on a case by case basis. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I also agree to keep them. I didn't yet find any source about Indian roller in Iran. You? But a few locality records in Nepal Terai. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:14, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay so how are we going to do this? What's the gameplan?, I found these papers:,. Any books to recommend? LittleJerry (talk) 22:53, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The first 2 are already referenced. Sorry, I can't really recommend a book, have only field guides with rudimentary info. I think we'll have to build this one up with refs to journal articles. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Great work so far! Do you think the 2nd paragraph re The Indochinese roller is darker, ... in the section Description is needed? I'm tempted to remove this. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 11:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There should be a segment on similar species. The material on teh European roller should be moved to here as well. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree - we should explain how the Indian roller differs from the Indochinese roller -they were formerly considered as conspecific and two species are sympatric in west Assam. The species could be confused - WP:Birds suggests that similar species are mentioned under Description. We already mention the European roller that migrates across the range of the Indian roller. - Aa77zz (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I found the Indian roller listed in checklists of birds in Vietnam and Cambodia. Certainly erroneous? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think t hat must be an older source thinking of affinis as a subspecies still Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * not that old, published in Forktail issues a) of 2011, in Vietnam at https://archive.org/details/forktail2720unse/page/115/mode/1up 1st column; b) 2014, in Cambodia at https://archive.org/details/forktail3020unse/page/75/mode/1up 1st column; c) 2015, in Yunnan at https://archive.org/details/forktail3120unse/page/51/mode/1up 2nd column. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I am thinking that most sources kept them as single species - see this until very recently. I'd be almost certain that is what has happened in all these forktails and all these actually refer to affinis. Rasmussen's opinion carries considerable weight and she highlighted the hybrid zones (i.e. leaning towards the lump rather than split) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Sources - Aa77zz (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Rasmussen and Anderton 2012 (cited in article) is a large authoritative modern field guide but as such has nothing on breeding etc.
 * HBW Vol. 6 available here (registration required) has a short section on p. 271 on the species. There is also a large section on the family Coraciidae (pp 342-370) which is very general and probably not useful. These are written by Fry.
 * Fry, Fry and Harris (1992) Kingfishers, Bee-eaters and Rollers see Amazon here has three pages on the Indian roller (pp 289-291) (The range map currently in the article cites this book as its source but the map on p. 98 in Fry et al is tiny and doesn't include the hatched area in the Arabian Peninsula)
 * BWP Cramp 1985 Vol 5 IV pp 778-783 (cited in article) has a section on the Indian roller - even though the range of the Indian Roller hardly extends into the Western Palearctic area considered by the BWP. The account is cited by Fry and is much more detailed than the above sources. The BWP includes inline cites (including to Lamba (1963) and Stonor (1944) that are now in the Further reading section).


 * So who is willing to purchase which? I'll take Fry, Fry and Harris (1992). LittleJerry (talk) 14:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have copies of all except HBW but I can consult HBW online at the Internet Archive. Send me an email. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:24, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The paragraph on the voice is uncited. Although my sources all describe the calls I struggle with representing the calls using the Latin alphabet. Fry has "chack" and "tschow", Rasmussen has KCHYal and grRK-grRK-grRK. Cramp has "k'yow", "kak" and "chack" and alsp "kri -- kri" given by both birds during copulation. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Listen to its call : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSjFyvPUuaA -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)


 * : the chapter on Indian roller in Fry and Fry is online, a 2010 edition, see https://books.google.com/books?id=hFSdA6xYqRMC&lpg=PP2&ots=uP_VKylsUM&lr&pg=PA289#v=onepage&f=false, though not all pages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd get working on this tommorrow. LittleJerry (talk) 21:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Super! Meanwhile I downloaded also the 3rd page of Fry & Fry, in which they referenced only Cramp (1985). How should we handle this on the page : always reference both? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * They're different enough to be cited separately. Anyhow, I'll do the description and voice for now. I'll leave the you, and  to sort out the rest. LittleJerry (talk) 21:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Cramp describes the tail feather colors as "much as C. garrulus". How does it describe the tail feather colors of the European roller? LittleJerry (talk) 23:21, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You can instead refer to description in the book chapter by Edwards (1764). I just edited + named this ref. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I assume you are referring to the text on p. 778 in the Field characters section: "Wing and tail colours much as C. garrulus but patterns more contrasting with greater extend of pale blue across primary coverts and outer section of primaries obvious in flight."


 * There is only a very brief mention of tail feathers in the Field characters section of the C. garralus article (Cramp IV p. 764) "... pale green-blue outer webs to tail feathers, ...".


 * Note that the individual tail feathers of C. benghalensis (t1, t2 etc) are described by Cramp on p. 782 - but Wikipedia articles generally don't include this level of detail. Fry p. 289 has "The tail is not streamered, and its azured sides can be hard to see." - Aa77zz (talk) 11:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it would be accurate to say that the tail feathers are blue and purple (like the wings) but the sources don't describe it like that. LittleJerry (talk) 13:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * See Edwards' description: The rump and covert-feathers above the tail are of a fine blue or ultramarine colour; the middle feathers of the tail are green; the outside feathers are of an ultramarine blue, .. I was lucky to sight + photograph the Indian roller at several places, and think that his description and colours mentioned fit perfectly !! -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Also - which length should we use and why...values are (annoyingly) different. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have 3 values that don't differ significantly: +/- 31 cm in Ali & Ripley (1983; Birds of Indian SC); 30-34 cm in Fry & Fry (2010); 33 cm in Grimmett et al. (2015; Birds of Nepal). We can references all of them? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 21:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay - or Fry & Fry sort of covers all of them really Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I've noticed that it is not uncommon for different sources to give significant different lengths for a bird species. Sometimes the range of lengths given by two sources don't even overlap. Although the long articles in Cramp include detailed measurements of different bird parts from various studies, these do not include the overall length of a live bird. For the Indian roller, there is the additional complication that the sources usually lump the larger affinis, with the nominate and indica. Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 p. 178 treat affinis separately and give >31 cm for affinis and <31cm for benghalensis.


 * Rasmussen and Anderton discuss the overall length of live bird species in the introduction (Vol. 2 p. 18). Rasmussen works with skins and for the book has taken the length of live specimens from Ali and Ripley (1983). Confusingly the lengths given by Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 are of live birds but in vol 2 the measurements were obtained from museum skins - measured from the base of the skull to the tip of the tail - and are much smaller. - Aa77zz (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Possible that Ali & Ripley (1983)'s value is based on earlier accounts in the JNHBS about Indian roller in India only. I'll try to find out. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you think that details about size difference of bills + wings of females + males are worthwhile to add? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm going to replace the old sources (aside from the historically important ones in taxonomy). With the general sources Aa77zz highlighted above, there's no reason for to use sources this ancient. The FAC reviewers will pick up on that. LittleJerry (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. With Fry, Rasmussen and Cramp, we should still do some expanding though. LittleJerry (talk) 22:13, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , I presume you didn't send your files of Fry, Rasmussen and Cramp. LittleJerry (talk) 11:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Correct, I did not. To do so I need an email address. - Aa77zz (talk) 11:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , you can get the sources from Aa77zz if you want. You don't need to use the 1934 source. LittleJerry (talk) 12:52, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you make this available at a cloud for a very short time? Once I downloaded, I'll let you know so you can delete it. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * ? I don't know how to use cloud. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Cloud can be at google drive or dropbox or wetransfer or any other company that offers webspace for free. You upload a file + share it via a link so that those who have the link can download it. You can post the link here and remove the file as soon as I let you know that I downloaded it. Let me know if you need an example. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

, an email is less hassle for me - the files aren't large. - Aa77zz (talk) 20:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have the files here LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , did you get the papers? LittleJerry (talk) 19:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Am not ready to share my personal email address and don't have one at gmail, so will have to register one for that purpose only. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * . You don't need a gmail account. I downloaded it when not logged in just to try it. LittleJerry (talk) 19:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Aaah, SUPER!! Sorry, I didn't see the link. Just downloaded 3 pdfs in a zip. Fantastic !! Thanks a ton. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Great! The files have been deleted now. LittleJerry (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I like Cramp's chapter best, as he provides so many details and the sources, many of them published in the JBNHS. Saw Ali & Ripley cited a couple of times. Gimme some time to read it all. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * But we can't overuse one source. LittleJerry (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Didn't intend to. But we can or I would like to follow up on some of the sources cited in Cramp's. E.g. his description of "bare parts" on page 782 is copy-pasted from Ali & Ripley (1970), but this description is exactly the same as in Ali's article about the Hyderabad bird survey, published in JBNHS 1938, one of his early articles. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

? Any suggestions on what to do next? LittleJerry (talk) 12:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have a few RL issues that are distracting me and feel as if I need some undisturbed time to digest this one. My idea was to digest all the scanned book material first before going to journals. Article still needs a para at end of description on similar species and how it can be distinguished from them. Also I suspect more could be added on habitat. I am sorry have been distracted. I'd do these myself but am a bit tied up for the next 24 hours. Feel free to add otherwise I'll get onto it later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking the rolling behavior is significant enough for its own sub-section. LittleJerry (talk) 14:04, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * How about a cladogram based on Johansson et al. (2018)? I can design one, if u think is worthwhile to add. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:24, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure. LittleJerry (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've already insert a cladogram in the article on the genus Coracias and a larger one in the family Coraciidae. - Aa77zz (talk) 20:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Added the former. LittleJerry (talk) 20:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The books don't state how long they are nestlings. They state that they are fledglings for 30 to 35 days. LittleJerry (talk) 12:13, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This paper goes into more detail and it was cited but someone removed it for alledgedly being a predatory source. LittleJerry (talk) 23:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this the same : http://idosi.org/wjz/wjz4%284%292009/3.pdf ? But a permanent link, the cloudfront one is only temporary. The publisher of the 'World Journal of Zoology' is indeed listed as a predatory publisher, see at https://predatoryjournals.com/publishers/#I. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 23:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you think that length of cecum is worthwhile to add, or too specific? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 21:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably not. LittleJerry (talk) 21:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Last-minute pre-GAN check...
Right folks, can anyone see any issues outstanding before GAN. we need to have consistent referencing. I generally prefer not to use ampersands in the author lists but don't care enough to argue about it - if you really want to use them then all references need to have them. Either way (all refs or none using ampersands) is okay, we just need to pick a format and stick to it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Also, can someone with a better knowledge of the subcontinent's geography than me figure out which subspecies are in the photos? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * e.g. File:Pala Pitta.jpg is from Telangana, so is (I guess) indicus as well...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:50, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Telangana is a state in eastern India, carved out from Andhra P. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Re ref Mitra (1898) : I did not find this in any of the 2 issues of the Journal of Asiatic Society that are online. So it must have been published in issue 3 > that was announced in the Proceedings of the Asiatic Society in that year, see https://archive.org/details/proceedingsofasi1898asia/page/202/mode/1up. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The anthropology parts of the Asiatic Society journal are a parallel series (Part III, but issue 2) to the ones that BHL has scanned. Shyamal (talk) 12:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks Shyamal. I also found the link to southasiaarchive. Is the reference in the page correct? Or should the Anthropology series be ref'ed differently? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Have no idea how "Part III" after the volume could be inserted in an appropriate way with our current citation templates. Shyamal (talk) 14:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Have tried using the series parameter, not sure if it is misuse. Shyamal (talk) 14:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks ok to me. I used this parm so often, and without any error messages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:59, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we're ready. I'm gonna focus my attention on turtle soon, just ping if you need me. LittleJerry (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, bombs away....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I wish all of you the best with you GAN. What I see above illustrates the high-point of WP cooperation. William Harris (talk) 09:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

is it possible to also include Shyamal to the GAN? S/he contributed a lot of content to this page in all the past years. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:55, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not really a problem BhagyaMani, I am happy to help without having to be listed. ("he" btw) Shyamal (talk) 12:14, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, up to you. But thought you should be acknowledged too. I went mugger, you might have seen that. And planning to GAN this perhaps by next week. Would you like to join in ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

,, and , the review is on. LittleJerry (talk) 00:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

TFA in November
If and when this passes FA review, I suggest it be nominated for TFA on 1 November. As Karnataka's state bird, it's only right that it appears on Karnataka's state day. I also plan to improve a few other articles by then - at least Vidhana Soudha - so that we can have several Karnataka-related entries on 1 November. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse &#124; fings wot i hav dun 16:53, 19 June 2021 (UTC)