Talk:Inter-Cities Fairs Cup

Supporting comments for restarting article

 * This article (UEFA Cup) is completely wrong, the Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup are completely different, chech UEFA's official website to see this (http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/uefacup/History/index.html). As an example, check Barcelona's official trophy count (http://www.uefa.com/footballEurope/Club=50080/competition=1/index.html). As you can see, there are no UEFA Cups, nor Fairs Cup, as this was an unofficial competition. I think the article should be completely changed and only talk about the UEFA Cup. Then another one on the Fairs Cup could be done. Robert King.


 * While I do not agree entirely with the above, I think the Fairs Cup deserves an article on its own. This competition had a different trophy and was run by differet organization. In the conclusion of this article it could then be made clear that the UEFA Cup was a successor competition. Djln--Djln 23:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Having come to read the articles and thus read the discussions, as a football fan I must strongly disagree with this idea that the Intercity Fairs Cup and the UEFA cup are "completely different", because that shows a lack of common sense over what is little more than a change of formats. UEFA themselves cannot register the 2 as one competition for technical reasons, but it is more than simply a matter of successer tournaments. One of the links given (http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/uefacup/History/index.html) underlines this fact, particularly with the section :

"In 1968 Leeds United AFC became the first northern European club to win the trophy, heralding a run of six successive wins by English clubs.

Name change The fifth of these was in 1971/72, won by Tottenham Hotspur FC, and the first to be known as the UEFA Cup. The change of name was recognition of the fact the competition was now run by UEFA and no longer associated with the trade fairs."

The competition was taken over by UEFA, rather than simply created. In football circles, they are both considered the same lineage and thus clubs who have won the Intercity Fairs Cup count it under UEFA cups. In practice, it's no different to the European Cup changing it's name, format, qualification rules and trophy to become the Champions League. I undersand for technical reasons the UEFA and Intercity cups must be put in seperate articles, but they are NOT totally seperate, and I don't see why Wikipedia can't follow the standard practice of football and simply have "Intercity Fairs cup/UEFA cup" for clubs whose honours list have won either to keep in the spirit of the competition, whilst still maintaining the seperate articles for more detailed descriptions and discussions.

One Club Per City
This article mentions that the one club per city rule was abolished in the early 60s when Edinburh and Barcelona had two teams in the competition, however, the UEFA Cup article states that the rule was in effect until 1975 when Everton challenged it. I also know that Clyde FC were prevented from competing in 1967 because of this rule. So my question is, does anyone know when the rule would have been reinstated or perhaps it wasn't an official rule until some time after the early 60s?--Largo1965 15:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In 1965/66 both Barcelona and Espanyol played in this cup. I think this rule was unofficial. --79.11.135.94 (talk) 20:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

CF Barcelona did not win the 1st edition
FC Barcelona did not participate in the Cup's first edition. Barcelona participated as city, including, as mentioned in the article one player from Español. Please correct the name of the winner of the 1st edition in 1958. In fact, Barcelona dressed with the city' logo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.49.205.83 (talk) 19:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Officially Inter-City Fairs Cup by FIFA
Good evening, I note that the FIFA recognizes the Fairs Cup trophy as specifically as you can see on the FIFA website, here are the sources with the links: http http://es.fifa.com/newscentre/news/newsid=1040575.html : / / es.fifa.com / classicfootball / clubs / club = 44217/index.html http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=44217/ http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/ clubs / club = 32847th / How obvious it is official pages of the Site where FIFA official honors in Barcelona, Valencia and Arsenal, both in English and Spanish, the Fairs Cup is included in Palmares officer with the words (now Europe League). UEFA FIFA as part of the unknown. Stanley Rous became President of FIFA in '61 true at giorganizzata Fairs Cup, but '55 was the President of FIFA Executive Commettee (as well as the powerful English FA); http://www.storiedicalcio.altervista .org / coppa_fiere / coppa_fiere_introduzione.html then proceeds with the restoration of the version of article previously deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.152.22.126 (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the Fairs Cup was an official competition recognised by FIFA. I think maybe you don't understand the sentence you deleted. It just explains what UEFA think about the Fairs Cup: that they don't count it in their records precisely because it wasn't their competition. I think an article about the Fairs Cup needs to give UEFA's opinion, it doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Barcelona vs FC Barcelona correction
Hi there,

pls correct the winner list. The city of Barcelona won the first title (not the FC Barcelona club). References : http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1958/05/02/pagina-1/646138/pdf.html

Extract : "La seleccion de Barcelona"

Barcelona participated as a City, not as a club. Moreover, a player from club Espagnol played for "Barcelona". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.164.17.208 (talk) 23:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

1955-58 Cup
I INCLUDE HERE A EXCHANGE THAT TOOK PLACE ON THESE TWO USERS' TALK PAGE. Hello. I noticed your change to the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup page, and read the reference you added. I agree that all teams entered in the first few editions of that competition, not just the Barcelona team, were there as representatives of their city. Some cities, like London, were represented by a team including players from many London clubs. Some cities, like Birmingham, were represented by a team from just one club: that isn't what the City of Birmingham authorities wanted, but Birmingham City F.C. were the only club willing to let their players take part. I've also read that a player from RCD Espanyol was included in the team representing the city of Barcelona, but if there was, he never played: according to the teams listed in the Mundo Deportivo match reports, every player appearing for the Barcelona team in the 1955-58 edition of the Fairs Cup was a Barcelona player at the time he played. If you can show specific evidence for an Espanyol player being included, or point out the one I missed, then please do: I'd appreciate the clarification. But without such evidence, I think it's misleading to call it a "Barcelona XI", when all other city teams described in that format were made up of players from more than one club. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your message. I only mentioned the RCD Espanyol player because everywhere I could find, there is mention of him, so I assumed that this is an undisputed fact. Nevertheless, as you well said, I've never been able to match a name for such player. My changing the name to Barcelona XI is not based so much in the player, as in the team wearing Barcelona City colors and shield. It might have been the F. C. Barcelona team, but they were not, at least in this first edition, representing the club itself, but the city of Barcelona.


 * Now, if you look at this comment in the discussion page for the F. C. Barcelona article, you'll find an old post of mind defending the fact that it was F. C. Barcelona who won the cup. In the article for F. C. Barcelona, I think it is right to give credit, where credit is due, and the FCB did indeed win the cup. Nevertheless, since this article is for all Spanish clubs in Europe, I saw appropriate, as all actual references state, to mention that this Fairs Cup was in fact won by a Barcelona XI, a team for the city of Barcelona, regardless of where the players come from. What do you think?--Coquidragon (talk) 12:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I understand the point you're making. But in the first edition of the Fairs Cup, every team was entered by the city hosting the trade fair in order to represent that city: that's just how the competition worked. It wasn't something particular to the team representing the city of Barcelona. I believe the Birmingham City FC players representing the city of Birmingham also wore the arms of the city on their shirts. Conventionally, English-language sources for the 55-58 Fairs Cup, e.g. RSSSF, refer to single-club teams by the name of the club, and to the mixed-club teams by the name " XI". There's a piece on the UEFA website confirming the 55-58 Barcelona team as containing only FCB players, and also confirming that all teams in that edition were representatives of trade fair cities. So changing the name to "Barcelona XI" in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup page without changing all the others to the " XI" format would be treating that city's team inconsistently. And changing them all to " XI" would be consistent, but would go against the way they're generally referred to in reliable English-language sources. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)


 * As to the La Liga clubs in Europe page, I'd probably call it FC Barcelona, but with a clear note, preferably visible at the table entry rather than buried in the references where nobody reads, and sourced to a specific English-language reference, explaining that in that edition of the competition, FCB had the honour of representing the city of Barcelona rather than themselves as a club. If the team that won the initial edition of the Fairs Cup was purely a city of Barcelona representative XI and not FCB, it probably shouldn't really appear on a page about La Liga clubs at all ;-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)


 * About the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup article, I completely agree with keeping consistency among all cities/clubs. Nevertheless, sourcing is also very important, and I don't have sources for the other teams. I only had a source for the Barcelona City team. This brings me to a different point, which is that the first tournament was indeed a tournament for cities, not for clubs. I do think all teams should be changed to "City XI." Still, if you want me to change it back (or you want to do it yourself), I will agree.


 * About the La Liga clubs in Europe article, there is not a consistency problem, since there are only two teams mentioned, London and Barcelona, and by adding the "XI" to Barcelona, the consistency is kept. If I put an explicit comment in the body instead of the reference section, which as you well say, is never read by many, then would it be reasonable to keep the "Barcelona XI?"


 * Thanks for the exchange. When we finish the dialogue, I'll move the conversation to the Talk page of the La Liga clubs in Europe article for historical purposes.--Coquidragon (talk) 06:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Returning to the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and 1955–58 Inter-Cities Fairs Cup pages, how about a compromise? change all the teams to the " XI" format, but, where that city was represented by a club side, as Barcelona, Birmingham, Milan, putting something like "represented by Birmingham City F.C." in parentheses afterwards. Rough idea of possible layout below. It's factually accurate, in that all entrants in the first edition were indeed teams representing cities, but follows the sources in that it includes the club in cases where the city was represented by a club side. It's hard to tell from English newspapers of the time whether Barcelona was generally referred to as the place or the football club, because the FC/CF is never included. They always called the Milan representative team Internazionale, and in fixtures and results, tended to put Birmingham City (which is a football club) rather than Birmingham (which might be either). The Barcelona XI (represented by...) would work equally well at the La Liga clubs in Europe page.


 * I can't find any reliable source for an Espanyol player being included. The UEFA piece mentioned above said the Barcelona XI won it "using players purely from FC Barcelona", and you'd think RCD Espanyol might complain if UEFA were writing their player out of history. And this, which may not be reliable in the WP sense but reads like it knows what it's talking about, says Espanyol were asked to be part of a joint squad but refused (which is exactly what happened in Birmingham, when Aston Villawere asked but refused). Please feel free to copy/move this conversation to relevant talk page(s). regards, Struway2 (talk) 10:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I like your proposal. Don't worry about the RCD Espanyol player, since the current source doesn't mention him.--Coquidragon(talk) 06:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Inter-Cities Fairs Cup
In case further reversions occurred, I will put here a two links demonstrating how FIFA considers the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup as a major honour: 1 and 2. -- Tanonero    (msg)  20:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Who sanctioned this tournament ? 178.167.230.220 (talk) 18:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Organising body in infobox
The region parameter is purely for the geographical region from which the tournament draws its participants, and the organiser parameter is for who runs it. It's actually misused on confederation-run competitions to include the confederation name bracketed, as Europe (UEFA), contrary to the documentation which uses the UEFA Champions League as its example with UEFA and Europe.

If the organising body for the Fairs Cup had a name or acronym that'd be informative in context of the brief overview that is an infobox – i.e. something more than Fairs Cup Organising Committee – it'd happily belong in the organiser parameter. But it doesn't, so is probably better dealt with in the prose. Plenty of competitions e.g. Mitropa Cup, Anglo-Italian Cup, just leave it blank as this one does.

Misusing the region parameter to highlight who the competition wasn't sanctioned by, especially at a time when confederations sanctioning competitions wasn't really a thing, seems to be giving undue weight to a fact that's already covered in the lead section right next to the infobox. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:53, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Repeated removal of mention of Barcelona XI from list of finals
Please see thread above, where the stable format was settled on.

The first edition of the Fairs Cup was for representative teams entered by cities with trade fairs, and not for football clubs. Some cities like London picked players from several different clubs. Others, like Barcelona, wanted to select from all the bigger clubs from that city but were unable to do so, and so were represented by players from FC Barcelona. The city of Barcelona's representative team won that first edition. As the competition became club-based, the win attached to FC Barcelona because it had supplied the players.

Be interested to hear your reasoning for repeatedly removing that information from the reader? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Club performance in semi-finals
A table of Performance in finals by club is fairly standard for most competition overview articles. However, the recently added Performance in semi-finals by club (LINKED HERE) is certainly not standard, and in my opinion is a step too far.

It's currently collapsed, which goes against the Manual of Style (see MOS:DONTHIDE). When visible it displays a lengthy list which I'd guess wouldn't be of interest to most readers, and highlights clubs' appearances in finals, which just duplicates content from the Performance in finals table. If there were a spin-off stats and records article (which I'm not advocating}, it would belong quite happily in that, but it's just too much information for a main article (see WP:NOTSTATS). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:10, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:08, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Inter-Cities Fairs Cup Logo.jpg

Qualifying
The introduction claims that from 1964 onward teams qualified based off league position yet in 1968 Newcastle entered the tournament after coming only 10th in the english first division so clearly league position is not the whole story. Firestar47 (talk) 16:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)