Talk:Islamic Government

[this discussion page has been copied from the original Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini) following its move to the new title.]

Requested move
Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini) → Hokumat-e Islami : Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini)

Why?: Islamic Government is the title of both English translations of Khomeini's book.

Hokumat-e Islami is given as the Farsi title of Khomeini's book in every book studying the subject (Theology of Discontent by Dabashi, Reinventing Khomeini by Brumberg, etc.) I have read, with  The Islamic Government, Authority of the Jurist sometimes also being mentioned as a title used.

Using this title would also make the job of Vilayat-e Faqih disambugation easier.

I suggest to move this article to Islamic government: guardianship of the jurist (book by Khomeini) and redirect Hokumat-e Islami : Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini) to it. Because when we translate a book we should translate it's name too.--Sa.vakilian 03:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .

Survey - Support votes

 * 1) Support move Let's follow the norms established outside WP. Zora 07:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support move It's the correct full title. --74.103.83.42 07:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per nom. Khoikhoi 07:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Looks alright. --Arad 16:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Support I think whether we like it or not there is a cryptic term present even now - Valiyat-e faqih. If nothing is going to be done about that, I think it should be at least the books correct name.Ali Soltani 12:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Support - Yeah let's do it!- --Amin123 06:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

 * 1) Oppose Either keep Valiyat-e faqih or change to Islamic Government. I would like to remind users that this is the English WP; thus, we need not add further cryptic terms like Hokumat-e Islami.  I definitely opposed this move.  Let us end this babel and make life easier for posterity.--Patchouli 19:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
There is a precedent in wiki-land for keeping the original titles of non-English books, e.g. Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq, Das Capital

--Leroy65X 18:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic Government (book by Khomeini) is good.--Patchouli 05:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that the English title can be used if a popular English edition from a reputable publisher exists. However, it is normal in the Islamic Studies field to use the original language title otherwise. EsatErbili (talk) 11:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

New Vote: Should title be in Arabic or English Translation?
Apropos sugestion of Sa.vakilian, should article be moved to:

(Reason: there is a precedent in wiki-land for keeping the original titles of non-English books, e.g. Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq, Das Capital)
 * 1) Hokumat-e Islami : Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini)

or

(Reason: "when we translate a book we should translate it's name too".)
 * 2) Islamic government: guardianship of the jurist (book by Khomeini)

(currently the title is Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini) which the previous survey voted to change.)

Discussion

Survey

 * Add  # Support Arabic   or   # Support English   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .

Arabic

 English
 * 1) Islamic Government (book by Khomeini). I propose a reformation to change the titles of Sayyid Qutb's book to English, too.--Patchouli 22:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Perhaps we should just leave it alone.--Patchouli 23:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey results
Do to the low turnout of the 2nd survey I'm goijng to go with the winner of the first survey Hokumat-e Islami : Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini).

Of course Patchouli and Sa.vakilian are free to work on getting support for further changes (like changing all the non-English language book wiki articles to English titles, which I can't say would be a bad idea ... but there's no survey support for it) if they feel like it. Any comments? --Leroy65X 01:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Islamist democracy
What is needed is a DEMOCRATIC Islamic Republic, it was proposed by Ayatullah Shariat Madari, Ayatullah Taleghani and Ayatullah al-Khoei. Even Ayatullah as-Sistani urged direct elections in Iraq and assured that he would stay out of poitics but the constitution must be based on Sharia'. Al-Zaidi 7:22, 24 January 2007 (EST)
 * Excuse me. I think you misunderstood. This debate is about the name of an article but you speak about type of government. --Sa.vakilian 03:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I just separate the argument of the advocacy for Islamic democracy from the survey.

By the way, Sistani called for "democracy" as I remember. Then his SCIRI killed homosexuals (death fatwa) and he called for the punishment of those who blaspheme Islam. However, he is less radical than Khamenei.--Patchouli 19:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact, sharia contains a litany of democratic & liberal principles. The list is extremely exhaustive. Among the most conspicuos is khula to emancipate women from enslavement.--Patchouli 21:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Arabic title
The book was written in Arabic. The lectures were given in Arabic.--Patchouli 22:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Algar, Dabashi and Brumberg (and some others too I think) the lectures were given in Persian and an arabic translation didn't come out until much later. --Leroy65X 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

My apologies
I rather stupidly bolloxed the survey by talking about "english" and "arabic" it should be english and persian. Perhaps that's why no one is voting. Leroy65X 17:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate article name
Hi. It has come to my attention that this article has been renamed to something relatively incomprehensible to English readers. Why is that? The official title of the English translation by Prof. Hamid Algar is "Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist." See here for more information on the English translation or. The title of the article should be either "Islamic Government (book)" or "Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist." The reason why the English name should be used is because this is what individuals will type into Google in order to find this page. English individuals are not going to type in the transliteration of the Persian name! Also in the above vote many users were solicited by Leroy65X. --64.230.127.12 06:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The article has not been renamed to anything yet. We are voting in a survey on whether to do as you suggest or follow the precident set in other articles on non-English language books in wikipedia. You can vote in the survey if you want.
 * Yes I did solicit votes. The editors I solicited all voted in the original survey. They are all either part of the Iran project or have been active in articles on the iranian revolution or khomeini.
 * If this guy doesn't reply I'm going to put him down as an "english" vote.--Leroy65X 18:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Move has been made
In addition to moving this page to a new title I have created some redirect pages for Islamic Government (book by Khomeini) and Islamic Government, Guardianship of the Jurist (book by Khomeini) so if the people who don't like untranslated non-English titles ever get their way they can use one of those pages and change this one to a redirect! :-) --Leroy65X 18:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you Afasmit for spellchecking. I should have done it. --Leroy65X 15:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

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