Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 2

Grammar check
There's a lot that needs review. However, here is an incomplete sentence at the bottom "considering that Netanyahu's coalition partners, who opposed a two-state solution for the conflict and would prefer to annex the entirety of the West Bank, even at the expense of turning Israel into an apartheid state." Considering what?37.252.80.255 (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The whole sentence makes sense. Selfstudier (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Did it? I think they are right that "considering" was not referring to anything. Renerpho (talk) 19:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Removed ", who". Renerpho (talk) 18:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Archive time
Talk page is over twice the recommended maximum (170kB out of 75), I'll be archiving old stuff that's closed/already added/no chance to be added, before stuff crashes. ChaotıċEnby ( talk ) 12:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Archiving time has been reduced, hopefully it will clear up by tomorrow. Selfstudier (talk) 12:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, great. Guess my preemptive creation of Archive 2 was unneeded, thanks a lot. ChaotıċEnby ( talk ) 12:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hundreds of Israel casualties from Hamas rockets?
The introduction suggests this but the cited sources do not substantiate this. Is there any evidence from credible sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by El-Baba (talk • contribs) 13:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Probably not from the rockets alone but also the incursions. Borgenland (talk) 15:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This number presumably includes all people who died under any circumstances directly attributable to the terrorists. It includes rockets, invasions, any accidents which may have occured on the way to the shelters, any "friendly fire" which occured while trying to deal with terrorists, any suspicious people who were killed and subsequently realized not to be terrorists (one such case was reported on the media already, a driver) etc. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 14:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hundreds of Israelis have been killed/murdered by militants/terrorists who conquered/took control of Israeli communities, villages and bases. Only a few have died from rocket fire. Israeli media currently reports at least 600 dead, 250 killed by Hamas militants/terrorists during a peace rave near Kibbutz Rehim. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for admitting that it is wrong to conquered and control communities. Does this mean that Israel is now willing to hand back all the villages and homes that it has stolen in resent times? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.181 (talk) 09:25, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (3)
Under International Reactions, add a line saying:

Several countries including Russia have called for restraint, without directly supporting either side

Source: https://www.dagens.com/news/russia-calls-for-immediate-ceasefire Sng Pal (talk) 10:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This was already there, but has been moved to its own article. FunkMonk (talk) 12:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why is IDF casualties on the palastinian side?
someone messed up ManU9827 (talk) 12:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Not a mess up, this is just the number of Palestinian casualties claimed by the IDF The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 13:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Edit request - Restore this in infobox

 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=October_2023_Gaza%E2%88%92Israel_conflict&diff=1179192038

@Shaan Sengupta, Please add this which is removed from infobox. 103.241.226.129 (talk) 14:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * If someone removed it, it might be disputed. I shall leave it for others to do it.  Shaan Sengupta Talk 15:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It hasn't been removed, it has been moved to October_2023_Gaza−Israel_conflict. Renerpho (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Hasn't been removed, its still in the infobox. Just moved to a note beside the overall number of dead within Israel, which counts the foreign citizens. Listing them separately would be double-counting. EkoGraf (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

PIJ
Need help fixing flag for Ziad Nakhalah in infobox. Borgenland (talk) 15:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Gaza–Israel clashes (November 2019) uses the same flag for al-Nakhalah, while May 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes uses no flag at all for him (but uses the same flag earlier in the infobox). What do you suggest as a fix? Renerpho (talk) 16:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It appears someone made a fix while I was away. Not sure who did. Borgenland (talk) 16:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023
You need the mention 50%+ civilians Israeli casualties if doing the same with Hamas. Vkutikov1 (talk) 15:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * No source provided that more than half of Israeli casualties are civilians, while source cited for Palestinian casualties. EkoGraf (talk) 16:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Source? Not done.Selfstudier (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (5)
The number of kills is unconfirmed so very biased at this point from both sides.

The countries that ally Israel or Palestine are not represented. 143.177.11.229 (talk) 18:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ❌ The reported casualties are sourced to reputable news outlets. If one side or the other is being untruthful about the casualty counts, there is nothing we can do about it. We cannot do our own independent investigation. As for the allied countries, it is now considered deprecated to add "supported by" in the infobox. Only direct participants should be listed. -- Jprg1966 (talk)  19:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Sofa linking to wrong page
Change the Israeli town Sofa from linking to the page for couches (furniture) to its own page. Insituin (talk) 20:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ The town does not appear to have its own page, but it now is a redlink instead of linking to the furniture page. -- Jprg1966 (talk)  20:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine in the info box
The citation for Ukraine supporting Israel in the conflict is pretty insufficient, it just refers to the president's words of encouragement. Might as well list half the countries in the world if that's all it takes to be included as a military supporter. XeCyranium (talk) 01:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I see there's already mention that the "supported by" line is deprecated anyway, so I guess it'll be removed eventually. XeCyranium (talk) 01:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Jprg1966 (talk)  02:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023 (2)
Remove Fatah from the belligerents list. They are not currently involved in the conflict. 77.100.96.130 (talk) 10:05, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Seems to have been done. As of the time of my comment, the following are listed as "belligerents" in the infobox: Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Lions' Den, Hezbollah, Israel. Adog  ( Talk ・ Cont ) 17:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023 (3)
Under Casualties-Palestine, change "Ten civilians were reportedly killed in a strike on a residential building in the Shabora on a residence near Khan Younis.[128] A Hamas leader named Ayman Younis was reported to have been killed on October 8 after shelling.[43] Ten civilians were reportedly killed in a strike on a residential building in Shabora near Khan Younis.[128] A Hamas leader named Ayman Younis was reported to have been killed on 8 October after shelling.[43]" to "Ten civilians were reportedly killed in a strike on a residential building in the Shabora on a residence near Khan Younis.[128] A Hamas leader named Ayman Younis was reported to have been killed on October 8 after shelling."

it is written twice. 2607:FEA8:565F:8160:F990:8F49:59D5:1B91 (talk) 12:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Seems to have been done. Adog  ( Talk ・ Cont ) 16:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Title
If this topic is notable enough to warrant its own article, it will almost certainly need a less ambiguous title.

More likely, this can be added to an article about various Hamas attacks on Israel in 2023, or over a longer period. DenverCoder9 (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @DenverCoder19 Well, sadly it can be changed to "2023 Israel Palestine war" soon 2A01:C22:C931:E700:78CF:B4BA:DE3D:CB0C (talk) 07:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I typed 2023 hamas attack and the first thing that came up was clashes in May. Maybe we could add October. Borgenland (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * there is now an operation name for this event https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/558406/?app=true SignedInteger (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * should this become the new article name (once translated) SignedInteger (talk) 07:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/07/world/israel-gaza-attack
 * Both sides have referred to this as a war, and sources are reporting on it as such. Perhaps appropriate to title it as 2023 Israel-Gaza War or something similar. KiharaNoukan (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed.
 * 2021 Israel-Palestine crisis is an indicator, maybe best to wait a bit and see just how serious this becomes. Selfstudier (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's best for us to wait for a bit. If there is no sign of deescalation, then it's a go. BlueHelvetical (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * “Gaza-Israel Conflict” or “Gaza-Israel War, 2023” are appropriate titles. “Palestine-Israel Conflict/War” is both inaccurate and inappropriate.
 * Just like the geographic region known as “North America” contains 3 countries, Canada, USA, and Mexico. There is no country, “North America” nor is there a nationality, “North American.”
 * By the same token, the geographic area known as “Palestine” contains 3 countries, Gaza, Israel, and Jordan. There is no country, “Palestine” nor is there a nationality, “Palestinian.”
 * If Mexico were to attack or invade the USA, it would not be appropriate to refer to it as the “North America-USA Conflict.”
 * https://theworldhistoryofwar.quora.com/https-www-quora-com-If-the-Palestinian-people-didnt-exist-before-Israels-existence-then-where-did-they-come-from-answe?ch=17&oid=16745248&share=f887561d&srid=a9am&target_type=post MetroNYCJerry (talk) 16:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * what about 5th Arab-Israeli War 166.194.158.48 (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If Israel attacks back, we can name it 2023 Palestine−Israel War. Andrew012p (talk) 15:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * And Israel has attack back while Gaza is under fire right now from Israel forces Efuture2 (talk) 16:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That should not occur. While the groups are from terrorist organizations within Palestine, the Palestinian military nor government has declares actual war upon Israel. IEditPolitics (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Since Benjamin Netanyahu declared war, surely the conflict is, definitively, a war? I would also like to express my deepest appreciation for everyone’s commitment to Wikipedia’s truthfulness and neutrality on this particularly divisive topic (and everything else). MrBoy632 (talk) 21:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agreed, he had already started a counter attack. Surely it's a war, rather than a conflict. Maybe compare it with previous conflicts and if it escalates, then it's a go. Either way, I would wait for an official government statement. So far, nothing new. BlueHelvetical (talk) 03:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This is officially a war as not too long ago, the cabinet agreed on invoking article 40 aleph, which was not invoked since the Yom Kippur war, making it an official declaration of war. Zekromu88 (talk) 12:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * As I stated before, Palestine's government did not explicitly declare war, nor use their official military. This is an act of multiple organized terrosit groups within Gaza and Palestine in general. To call it the Palestinian Israel War would be largely inaccurate. IEditPolitics (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Opposed. For now, I think it is too early to call it Palestine-Israel war. The side opposed to Israel is Hamas, which does not represent the Palestinians in West Bank. We should wait for more events. Zenms (talk) 03:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Point of information – Titles of articles are generally goverened by WP:COMMONNAME which states, "the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." Please focus on what WP:RS are using to refer to this conflict. - Fuzheado &#124; Talk 16:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I would second the comment citing to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RS. It is easy to get caught up in various points of a conflict and forget to adhere to the guidelines set by Wikipedia. Given the statement by the Isreali Prime Minister, it would be justified in being called "2023 Israel Palestine war" and also because of the media coverage by reliable sources. It may be advisable to wait a few days to see how this progresses as there is no rush to finalize a title for the article right now. Jurisdicta (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We should probably focus on getting the content right and picking the name later, something will coalesce. But people here seem to be generally on the right track and we shouldn't mind moving it and changing the name if a different one emerges. Keep in mind that no change is permanent. DenverCoder9 (talk) 22:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The conflict is occuring a bit after Yom Kippur, so shouldn't it be called ẗhe "Second Yom Kippur War" or "Yom Kippur War II"? 23.93.17.238 (talk) 22:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have not seen a reputable source use that term. Mostly it is being characterized as a war. Invanity (talk) 22:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The infobox refers to it as the "Third Intifada", perhaps we should use that? SufficientChipmunk3 (talk) 00:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I will just note that I did hear this already referred to as "war in Israel" on television. Reference was made not only to missile attacks, but also attacks from "land and sea".
 * Remains to be seen but discussion over this is absolutely warranted. ShouldIHide (talk) 07:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Opposed. I believe it is way too early to call it Palestine-Israel war. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and doesn't represent Palestinians on the West Bank.  I may be inclined to change my opinion as more event's unfold. --Stubbleboy23 (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Completely agree. Palestine did not declare war on Israel, only terrorist groups in Palestine. IEditPolitics (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * In Hebrew Wiki, We have two different pages for the war (he:מלחמת חרבות ברזל, Operation Swords of Iron) and for the first battle of the war (he:מתקפת הפתע על ישראל (2023), Surprise Attack on Israel (2023)). אורי9 (talk) 16:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel like at the moment it's Gaza/Hamas rather than Palestine as a whole so I'm not sure if it's appropriate to change it to "Palestine". And as mentioned, despite the media calling it a 'war' and a war being declared, I'm still not sure if the title should change to "war", it's currently too soon. To me it seems more like a conflict/clash or possibly a crisis, but even for that it's too soon to tell. — Panamitsu (talk) 03:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Hareetz is covering it as Israel–Gaza War; Al-Jazeera, Israel-Hamas Conflict... Oops, now Israel-Hamas war, as does The Guardian. Thus far... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-08/ty-article-live/over-250-israelis-killed-1-590-wounded-civilians-and-soldiers-held-hostage-in-gaza/0000018b-0cd2-d8fc-adff-6dfe855e0000 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/8/israel-palestine-escalation-live-israeli-forces-bombard-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-palestinian-attack-october-2023-gaza-conflict-hostages-latest-news kencf0618 (talk) 14:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * My two agorots' worth: I support the use of the word "war" in the article title, but at the same time wonder whether the name "Palestine" belongs there. The attack on Israel was a Hamas initiative (possibly with outside help), but was it really an official Palestinian one? After all, Mahmoud Abbas, who is supposedly the Palestinian president (although I realize that his status as such is very controversial), is not part of Hamas. Palestine, as it sits now, is politically very fractured. Beyond that, I have no recommendation for a proper title, and I agree with a number of contributors that we should wait and see how this situation develops. Kelisi (talk) 20:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: I agree on the use of the word "war" but also due to the concepts of territorial dispute and the historical nature of the region, it may be possible to classify this as a warring internal dispute; a civil war. Therefore: October 2023 Gaza−Israel Civil War. LukeRDavis (talk) 21:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I don’t think “war” is an inappropriate term any longer. PencilSticks0823 (talk) 22:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed: I believe that the name should be changed to The Israeli-Hamas War. USA1855 (talk) 01:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with the proposal to change the title to include the word "war". More and more news outlet are beginning to use "war" to describe what is happening. Here is one example:
 * https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2023/10/08/israel-gaza-war-more-than-1000-dead-as-fighting-rages-on.html Withmoralcare (talk) 02:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Support: As many major outlets, including Al Jazeera, are describing it as the "Israel-Hamas war" Hensci (talk) 05:54, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: Israel has declared a state of war, and Israel and Hamas are the warring parties.kencf0618 (talk) 13:29, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Update to foreign citizens killed.
The german news channel "Die welt" announced that a german tourist from berlin (not Shani Nicole Louk) is now reported to be killed after being kidnapped by Hamas.

I'm trying to look to somehow get a link for that news thats not gonna be the link to the youtube-livestream of the official "Die Welt" channel.

Poles Ragge (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * https://www.welt.de/tv-programm-live-stream/
 * Here it is Poles Ragge (talk) 15:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * More info: A mother talked with one of the reporters and said her daughter got killed after bing kidnapped.
 * Please take with a grain of salt (safety-first) Poles Ragge (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ❌ This is too poorly sourced to be used in the article. Walt Yoder (talk) 15:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Declaration of War?
There are multiple reports that Israel has issued a formal declaration of war. If this is true in the sense defined under international law, it would be a fairly rare occurrence in the post 1945 era and should probably be noted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * According to WAPO< "Israel’s declaration of war, a mostly symbolic formality, would allow the government to enact a wider mobilization of military reserves and compel the government to identify specific wartime objectives, raising the specter of a ground invasion of Gaza." Idk if it is worth mentioning specifically. Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It is the first time since 1973. I think that is worth mentioning. -- Jprg1966 (talk)  18:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * A symbolic formality with very few modern examples. I'd say it merits a mention, assuming we are talking about the legal formality that in theory sovereign countries are supposed to issue before commencing hostilities. Ad Orientem (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The Times of India: "Israel officially declares war for 1st time since 1973 as death toll mounts to 600." The Jerusalem Post: "Article 40 allows the government to order “significant military action that may lead, with a level of probability close to certain, to war."
 * There are several sentences in the article about "being at war" etc., why would it be a problem to include a sentence that officially confirms it? RiniX (talk) 18:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Jprg1966 (talk)  18:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023
Please include the case of the 8 Mexican Foreign nationals reported missing or killed on the attack, one by the name of Orión Hernandez Radoux, apparently captive in Gaza or missing, boyfriend of German- Israeli citizen Shani Louk who was shown deceased in a video posted on social media , naked and paraded as a trophy trough the streets of Gaza and was later recognized by her Mother. 189.216.171.79 (talk) 00:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ❌ We already have a sentence on Shani Louk. I see news articles about 2 Mexican nationals being captive, which is also already noted in the article. If you can find an article saying there are 8, I'll add it. -- Jprg1966 (talk)  00:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

3 Brazilians missing, 1 injured during attack on rave.
i am not able to paste the link here for some reason, but several Brazilian news outlets are talking about it.

in addition, the rave was organized by Alok (DJ)'s father, maybe important to mention. 177.83.128.215 (talk) 23:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * correction:DJ alok's father was not the organizar, he was only onde of the djs there. 177.83.128.215 (talk) 02:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ❌ Re'im music festival massacre is a more appropriate article for that level of detail. Walt Yoder (talk) 15:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Update to foreign citizens killed.
The german news channel "Die welt" announced that a german tourist from berlin (not Shani Nicole Louk) is now reported to be killed after being kidnapped by Hamas.

I'm trying to look to somehow get a link for that news thats not gonna be the link to the youtube-livestream of the official "Die Welt" channel.

Poles Ragge (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * https://www.welt.de/tv-programm-live-stream/
 * Here it is Poles Ragge (talk) 15:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * More info: A mother talked with one of the reporters and said her daughter got killed after bing kidnapped.
 * Please take with a grain of salt (safety-first) Poles Ragge (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ❌ This is too poorly sourced to be used in the article. Walt Yoder (talk) 15:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Trim discussion topics
Calling for an urgent closure and archiving of outdated discussions (especially casualty figures) and international reactions (moved to another article). It is becoming quite difficult to scroll through this talk page. Borgenland (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The archive time was reduced to 1 day, it should clear up tomorrow hopefully. Selfstudier (talk) 17:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments removed from this talk page
Constructive comments from new accounts have been removed from this talk page. Does the 30 day, 500 edit minimum apply to the talk page as well as the article? Jim 2 Michael (talk) 16:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Applies to the RM, WP:ARBECR. Any others may be restored if you believe they are constructive. Selfstudier (talk) 16:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have removed a few instances of identical comments that were posted twice (apparently accidental), from this page and the List of international reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict talk page, especially duplicate edit requests. The 30/500 rule played no role in that. Renerpho (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The 30/500 rule doesn't apply to ordinary discussions (it does to move requests). I've generally been trying to archive discussions that have naturally resolved so as to keep the page readable, but I can stop doing that if you'd like. — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 16:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this article needs more archiving, not less! Renerpho (talk) 16:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
Under "Terminology," the article refers to the Palestinian offensive as "Operation Al-Aqsa Deluge" and the Israeli counterattack as "Operation Swords of Iron." The rest of the article instead uses "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" and "Operation Iron Swords." The "Terminology" section should be changed to fix this consistency error. AmericanBaath (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ Google searches reveal "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" and "Operation Iron Swords" are the more common variants. I'll change accordingly. -- Jprg1966 (talk)  20:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Brazil position on the conflict
The brazilian government never said it supported "Israels right to defend itself", it simple condemned the hamas attacks on civilians and called for de escalation, please correct the information 2804:4FFC:40D:9D00:4D20:2973:F9C3:415C (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ -- Jprg1966 (talk)  21:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks 2804:4FFC:40D:9D00:D084:D667:4BFA:679B (talk) 00:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Uruguay to countries with reinforced security following the attacks
The Minister of the Interior, Luis Alberto Heber, ordered the police forces to reinforce security to preserve the safety of Israeli citizens and organizations in Uruguay, following the surprise attack by Hamas in the Gaza Strip and the declaration of war.

"We are going to remain in a state of alert to provide peace of mind and avoid any type of incident that could put people's safety at risk," the Interior Ministry reported.

El País Accuratelibrarian (talk) 01:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ -- Jprg1966 (talk)  02:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

party near Re’im
Palestinian terrorists arrived to the nature party complex in the Re’im forest, fired at the participants and threw grenades https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1710551424436748742 https://www.jta.org/2023/10/07/israel/it-was-utter-chaos-families-and-survivors-describe-the-horrors-of-hamas-invasion https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryhehzybp#autoplay https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/2023_q3/Article-f88c2856ee80b81026.htm https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gunmen-homes-captives-abducted-gaza-leave-israelis-shock-2023-10-07/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 22:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

peoeple dead https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-bodies-being-removed-identified-from-site-of-large-party-near-reim/

"Survivors of Massacre at Israeli Outdoor Rave Describe 'Battlefield'" https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-07/ty-article/.premium/survivors-of-massacre-at-israeli-outdoor-rave-describe-battlefield/0000018b-0a85-dae9-adcb-abbfa4990000

a lot of them are missing. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hjyzajclt
 * I added a sentence about bodies being recovered from the party. -- Jprg1966 (talk)  23:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The event appears to have been named Universo Paralello but can't find a solid source for that yet.©Geni (talk) 05:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/israel-gaza-fighting-hamas-attack-music-festival-intl-hnk/index.html calls it Nova Festival. Borgenland (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * In my understanding, the massacre at the nature party (which was in the forest) has nothing to do with the battle at Camp Reim (Gaza Division headquarters). These are different events that took place.
 * https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-07/ty-article/.premium/survivors-of-massacre-at-israeli-outdoor-rave-describe-battlefield/0000018b-0a85-dae9-adcb-abbfa4990000
 * Geographically, there are Kibbutz Reim, Camp Reim and Forest Reim in this area. These are 3 separate places and it is advisable to be careful of confusion. 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E813:77F3:5AD8:B10C (talk) 05:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There was also a third battle in the kibbutz itself (https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b15wi11xz6#autoplay) — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 13:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Egyptian policeman kills Israeli tourists in Alexandria
Something related to the topic source 2A02:908:4E3:9520:DD40:507C:B7CE:F490 (talk) 11:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm considering whether to place it in international reactions instead. Borgenland (talk) 14:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure if the events are linked, though.  Bremps  ...  15:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We can't really state they're linked unless the motives of the shooter are made clear. FunkMonk (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

More casualties
Please add to the foreign victims a Chilean who was murdered by Hamas, the name has already been published and the Israeli ambassador in Chile confirmed it publicly, I leave you the link

https://www.24horas.cl/internacional/noticias/hija-de-chilena-murio-en-israel-tras-ataque-de-hamas-habria-recibido-8-disparos Darknessofhumanity (talk) 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ -- Jprg1966 (talk)  14:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * can you add this section in infobox
 * casualties3      = 17 Nepalis kidnapped by Hamas, 7 Nepalis injured 2 Thais killed, 11 kidnapped by Hamas, 8 injured, 2 Ukrainians killed. 2 Argentinians killed. 103.241.226.129 (talk) 15:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Missing Israelis
The current number of missing of 750+ in infobox is unreliable. It originates from a tweet by Jerusalem Post being quoted by other news reports. I think it should be removed. Ecrusized (talk) 18:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * If you think its unreliable then remove it by all means. Wasn't sure myself since it has not been widely reported on. EkoGraf (talk) 18:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Map of alleged territory seized by Hamas
I have stumbled upon this tweet which purportedly displays the towns under temporary Hamas occupation. Should this image be included in the article? https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1710584095632163250 Ecrusized (talk) 12:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * A proper map should be made if we are to show the occupied towns LuckTheWolf (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We could use this: Template:Israeli-Palestinian conflict detailed map
 * Just add more cities to it in southern Israel, with control and ongoing engagements and all that - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes DBakampaka (talk) 08:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Response weight
As always with such pages, a wall of response material is rapidly being added without a logical stopping point - if 200 countries responded, would the page simply list all 200 responses? A simple starting point for rationalizing this would be to ditch pure twitter/X content. Foreign ministry tweets are a primary source; without secondary sources supporting the mention of such primary statement, they have no weight and are undue. I would suggest initially removing responses that do not have secondary sources supporting them, and potentially later tightening this to multiple secondary sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The detailed wording usually adds no knowledge. A sentence such as "The attacks were condemned by countryone[ref], countrytwo[ref], ... and supported by countrya[ref], ... would seem sufficient, with more detail when anything substantial rather than routine is said. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 13:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Based on experience, it is better to condense such statements after things quiet down, because some editors are quite touchy especially if it deals with their home countries. Please do note also that a lot of countries, including mine, have lots of migrant workers in Israel so I might add ours the moment it comes out. Borgenland (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We know that the West will support Israel by default and the rest of the world will call for restraint, with a few outliers supporting the Palestinians, so listing every single country in the western block with their identical statements is pointless. FunkMonk (talk) 15:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Reactions are added, until they become too numerous. In that case, only reactions covered in secondary sources may be kept. If that becomes too voluminous as well, a split is in order. Simple procedure. Dege31 (talk) 17:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Reactions are not inherently notable. They do not need to be covered at all unless the reaction itself has been the subject of analysis. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Im going to condense and split off.  nableezy  - 17:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * and done. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 17:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a major change; there should be a consensus first.–St.nerol (talk) 17:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There is precedent, same thing was done with 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, split off to International reactions to the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. Logical, I think. Selfstudier (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If your only objection is a lack of prior consensus then you dont have an objection. If you have a reason in support of a listing of reactions belongs in this article feel free to provide it. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 04:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * nableezy's action is in the spirit of WP:BRD, "there should be a consensus first" is not a problem. Pol098 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Israeli cabinet confirmed that Israel is at war
I cannot edit this article because it is protected, but whoever can edit the article should know that the Israeli cabinet has confirmed that Israel is at war and not in a conflict or a military operation. KatzeChat (talk) 14:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ✔️ This is already in the article. -- Jprg1966 <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Simchat Torah, Shemini Atzeret, and Shabbat
One should remember that not only is Yom Kippur a much more important holiday than Simchat Torah (one with military implications- Yom Kippur is a fast day), Shabbat is not a holiday in the same sense as either- it happens once a week. I would remove the mention of Shabbat and perhaps clarify the difference between Simchat Torah and Yom Kippur. Tangle10 (talk) 14:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * It also occurred on Shabbat which is rest day. But aside from that, could you also clarify Succot? There are also mentions of that holiday. Borgenland (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sukkot ended right before this happened, and is a feast holiday. Tangle10 (talk) 15:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Tangle10 So many mistakes. There were three different occasions on the day of the initial attacks: Shabbat, Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah. Of the three, Shabbat is the most halakhically limiting. Yom Tov, such as Shemini Atzeret, is second to Shabbat. Simchat Torah has no halakhic significance on its own, despite being the most culturally prominent among the three. The combination of these three different occasions caused a unique difficulty: it's as halakhically limiting as possible (Shabbat), as laid back as possible (Shemini Atzeret, which is a "Yom Tov", a time of family dinners and time off work), and one of the happiest and busiest day in the Jewish year, especially for young parents and their kids (Simchat Torah). Joalbertine (talk) 12:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The proper, biblical name of the holiday is Shemini Atzeret. In Israel, Simchat Torah is celebrated on Shemini Atzeret, a one-day holiday immediately following the seventh (final) day of Sukkot. In the Diaspora, Shemini Atzeret is a two-day holiday immediately following the seventh day of Sukkot, and Simchat Torah is celebrated on the second day of Shemini Atzeret (which is colloquially referred to as Simchat Torah rather than "the second day of Shemini Atzeret"). The day the war started was Shemini Atzeret (and Shabbat) in both Israel and in the Diaspora, and it was Simchat Torah in Israel, but it was not Simchat Torah in the Diaspora. 108.21.213.213 (talk) 03:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The bible does not say anything about a day called Shmini Atzeret. It says "On the eighth [the Hebrew word is Shmini, and as an adjective it comes after the noun in Hebrew] day, you shall have an Atzeret [the exact meaning of this word is unclear, but it's at the beginning of the clause (not unusual in biblical Hebrew), immediately after the word "Shmini"]". Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 14:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Animal lover 666 This etymological information is irrelevant. I believe the point was that Shemini Atzeret is דאורייתא (a mitzvah originating from the Torah), as opposed to Simchat Torah which is not even דרבנן but is simply not a mitzvah of any kind. Joalbertine (talk) 15:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Third Intifada..?
No one - In israel or in palestine, called it Third Intifada, really no one. אקסינו (talk) 01:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * It's not universal but several American news agencies have referred to it as such. Similarly, we use "Third Intifada" in the 2014 Jerusalem unrest article, along with others.
 * If there's any terms being commonly used in Israeli or Palestinian media about this - and it's being widely used - I recommend that it's added. KlayCax (talk) 01:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * So by that logic this would be the fourth intifada. Or, perhaps, there is no third intifada despite the wishes of bloodthirsty outsiders to label everything as such. Total crystal ball violation. PrimaPrime (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * WP: Crystal only applies if we're speculating it is. If reliable sources are referring to it in the present tense as such: then it's a different case. The situation is obviously horrific. I'm not implying it isn't. KlayCax (talk) 01:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, some news called it a third intifada, and others called it Hamas-Israel war, Israel war and some called it a Terror wave, we just need to stick we a netural name and I think the current title does it perfectly.
 * It could be defientely called an Intifada in a matter of days weeks or maybe months but it's not the name used by anyone other than some populist news agencies thus it's incorrect to call it that. אקסינו (talk) 02:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Mainstream news agencies such as The Guardian have also referred to it as such. It's not limited to tabloids. I think we're past the point of just considering it sensationalism from clickbait low-quality "news"papers. KlayCax (talk) 02:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it should be removed. It's a controversial term and it's too soon to decide it will be called the Third Intifada. Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 01:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * This is hardly commonly used for this conflict. I haven't seen it once. FunkMonk (talk) 12:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Timeline needed.
self-explanatory. Great Mercian (talk) 01:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think a timeline is necessary, or even feasible. Many events happened nearly simultaneously across many locations in a short period of time. It probably would be impossible to reconstruct a sequence beyond the broad outlines already given. If this conflict continues in the coming days, as it almost certainly will, a chronological progression of the conflict will become easier to write (.e.g, day-by-day or week-by-week, etc.). -- Jprg1966 <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  02:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Isn't that what a timeline is? Great Mercian (talk) 02:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You could try to create a timeline article....divided by hour? It's only day 2. Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_October_2023_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict kencf0618 (talk) 12:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Southern Lebanon involvement
Just recently, Southern Lebanon initiated their rocket attacks on Israel in support of Gaza. IDF responded by artillery fire, and some UN peacekeepers (UNIFIL) in Lebanon is pulled back to their base. Should it be included in the article? I'm looking into others opinion, as I am unable edit it due to article protection. BlueHelvetical (talk) 04:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you provide some sources? I can't find anything to this effect.VR talk 05:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's being reported on X (formerly known as Twitter) Efuture2 (talk) 05:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There is reliable sources of UN peacekeepers backing away/increasing their presence there due to rocket attacks there, but the issue is still ongoing and nothing much (information) can be found as of now. I will keep on updating if there is anything new. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll get back to ya with reliable sources. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Please specify who exactly since Southern Lebanon is not an independent state. Borgenland (talk) 05:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's Hezbollah. I will look into some more informations. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Update: UNIFIL confirms rocket attack at southeast Lebanon towards Israeli-occupied territory in the general area of Kafr Chouba and artillery fire from Israel to Lebanon in response. They are in contact with authorities in both sides of the Blue Line, at all levels, to contain the situation and avoid serious escalation. BlueHelvetical (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Here it was reported in the guardian live coverage, add hezbollah to the list of belligerents. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-palestinian-attack-october-2023-gaza-conflict-hostages-latest-news#maincontent MysticForce07 (talk) 05:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * i24news
 * ynetnews
 * Hindustan Times
 * BilledMammal (talk) 05:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * A handful of mortar shells doesn't square with Hezbollah. Those guys have a lot of rockets.©Geni (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Gulf News now reports that Hezbollah has claimed responsibility for shells and missiles fired at Israel. BilledMammal (talk) 05:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Unlikely. They don't recognise the Shebaa farms as Israel (in fairness neither does anyone else its just that most of the world thinks they are part of syria rather than Lebanon).©Geni (talk) 05:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Well now Hezbollah has claimed responsilibity for it. "Lebanon’s Hezbollah says it has targeted three occupation outposts with mortar shells in the “occupied Shebaa Farms” in southern Lebanon." https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-palestinian-attack-october-2023-gaza-conflict-hostages-latest-news#maincontent MysticForce07 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I deleted this section as a mistake\edit conflict. hope it's fine now. – (talk) 02:30, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Edit request: Correct Hebrew transliteration
מבצע חרבות ברזל≠Mivtsa Charvot Barzel מבצע חרבות ברזל=Mivtsa Ch/Kharavot Barzel Sorry formatting is terrible when combining Hebrew and English. Location: Second paragraph of the "Background" Section. Source: Me, a native Hebrew speaker. TomGoLeen (talk) 10:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * If you want a better source: The academy of the hebrew language TomGoLeen (talk) 10:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I changed it to "Kharavot", and marked it as needing a citation. The CNN article we are currently citing does not provide a transliteration. Right now, a search for only lists this Wikipedia article (and a mirror site), while  finds the WikiData entry. If you have a source (ideally a specific URL), that would be nice. Renerpho (talk) 19:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Death Toll in Israel is now 400+ per "Times of Israel"
Per the news outlet, the death toll on the israeli side is now over 400. The "Times of Israel" also state that there are currently 2,048 injured on the israeli side.

Link to the article: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-death-toll-passes-400-another-2048-injured/

The article was posted 10 minutes ago as of my writing. Poles Ragge (talk) 11:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Requesting an edit to the casualties part of the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poles Ragge (talk • contribs) 11:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Forgot to add:
 * The "Times of Israel" article is referencing the Israeli Health Ministry. Poles Ragge (talk) 11:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Done. Ecrusized (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Im watching N12 and it says 500+ 87.68.136.59 (talk) 12:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I just read the death Toll has risen to 600+ according to "Times of Israel".
 * Per Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian ( https://twitter.com/manniefabian ) N12 is saying the death toll in Israel is 500+ and "Channel 13" is reporting 600+ deaths on the israeli side. Poles Ragge (talk) 12:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * [Note]
 * Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian is a military correspondend for the news agency "Times of Israel".
 * At time of my writing "Times of Israel", "Channel 12" and "Channel 13" are all refering to the Health ministries number of 600+
 * Poles Ragge (talk) 12:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Im currently watching "The Welt" (german news channel) and they're also referencing the official number of 600+, that was made by the health ministry of Israel. Poles Ragge (talk) 12:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * small update per "channel 12 news" and per "times of israel", the israeli death toll has risen to 700+ Poles Ragge (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Timing (Holiday)
It's important to note that the attacks began in the early morning hours of Shemini Atzeret. To understand why this is such a crucial detail, read Yom Tov and Melacha. It's the main reason that many Israelis compare the attacks to the Yom Kippur War. Joalbertine (talk) 12:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The article currently says: The attack took place during the Jewish holiday of Simchat Torah and Shabbat, and a day after the 50th anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War, which also began with a surprise attack. What do you suggest to be added to this? Renerpho (talk) 19:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Renerpho I would write something along the lines of: The attack took place during Shabbat and the Jewish holidays of Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah, which conclude the long holiday season of Tishrei ("High Holy Days"). It was also a day after the 50th anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War, which also began with a surprise attack during a religious holiday ("Yom Tov").
 * I think it's important for the reader to understand that a large portion of the population had no access to phones, radio, television or computers for about 13 hours into the event, because observant Jews would only use electricity on Shabbat/holiday if it's a matter of life or death. Since the only information they had was the sound of the sirens, some friends of mine sat in shelters for almost the entire day without any idea of what was going on outside. The text should convey this reality in some way. Joalbertine (talk) 20:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If that is so then I agree. However, we need a reliable source that discusses those issues. Do you have a newspaper article that does so? Nothing against your personal experiences (you and your friends have my sympathy), but we can't use anecdotal evidence here. Renerpho (talk) 20:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Renerpho I totally understand. However, it's not likely to appear in a newspaper article because for Israelis it's simply obvious, and as you can see, it's very hard to explain halakhah to an outsider. That's why I suggested stating the basic facts about the nature of the day, without going into too much detail. Joalbertine (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you sure there won't be anything in local newspapers? The concurrence of multiple holidays seems unusual enough to me that it should be mentioned even in Israeli newspapers, if it is really relevant. We are currently citing an NPR article for the "took place during the Jewish holiday of Simchat Torah and Shabbat" part, and AP  for the second half of the sentence. If any of that is to be replaced by something not in the current sources, we need a different one, as those are not basic facts. Renerpho (talk) 21:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Renerpho Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah are always the same day in Israel. They don't always coincide with Shabbat, obviously, but there's nothing unusual about that. These are all regular events in the Jewish calendar, so I'm not sure why a newspaper article would be needed to corroborate their existence or religious nature. Joalbertine (talk) 21:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We are in a difficult situation then. If nobody has reported this as relevant then we cannot include it. In the case of the "holiday situation", we currently have to rely on outside sources (two articles published in the US), and what they make of it. What you have said about why the details matter sounds highly relevant to me, but that's not enough. Renerpho (talk) 21:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"in Israeli Airstrikes"
Regarding, I included "in Israeli airstrikes" because it isn't an attempt at providing a full accounting of Palestinian casualties; it doesn't include those killed in ground fighting. I think the infobox needs to clarify this, but I don't mind how it does that - if you can think of a better way than saying "in Israeli airstrikes" then I encourage you to add it. BilledMammal (talk) 12:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Like I said, adding "in Israeli airstrikes" is not in line with other Wikipedia conflict infoboxes (including previous Gaza wars) where only casualty figures are listed (with attribution to the source and distinguishing between civilian and combatant). Causes of death are not for the infobox. As per the established template of Wikipedia conflict articles, their causes of death are expanded upon in the main body of the article, to be specific, in the casualties section of the article, which is the standard Wikipedia encyclopidic practice. If you want to elaborate in the casualties section regarding this, I can help you with that. EkoGraf (talk) 13:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * My intention with that edit isn't to include the cause of death; it's to make it clear that the Palestinian Ministry of Health (Hamas) is not claiming to make a full accounting of casualties. I think that is something we need to make clear, as currently we are misrepresenting the source.
 * Can you think of a way to do that other than to say "in Israeli airstrikes"? BilledMammal (talk) 13:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * the Palestinian Ministry of Health (Hamas) is not claiming to make a full accounting of casualties, please provide a source confirming that the Ministry is not making a full accounting. PS I already added (if you didn't notice) Gaza in the brackets of the ministry to indicate for which region they are claiming the casualties. EkoGraf (talk) 17:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Reuters; "Gaza health ministry says 370 dead in retaliatory strikes"
 * Amnestry; "Israel’s retaliatory attack on Gaza has killed at least 232 people and injured nearly 1,700, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health."
 * France24; "The death toll in the Gaza Strip rose to 313 Sunday, the health ministry in the Palestinian enclave said, as the army carried out air strikes on Hamas targets for the second consecutive day."
 * Anadola Ajansi; "More than 250 Palestinians, meanwhile, were killed and over 1,700 injured in Israeli airstrikes in Gaza, according to the Health Ministry."
 * Forbes; "Roughly 370 Palestinians have been killed and 2,200 have been injured in the Gaza Strip, the Palestinian Ministry of Health said Sunday."
 * Among many others. BilledMammal (talk) 17:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, did you not notice I already added "Gaza" in brackets beside the Ministry to indicate the region they say they are documenting as an attempt at compromise? EkoGraf (talk) 17:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make it clear that they are only reporting casualties from within the strip, as there are other ways to interpret that disambiguation. BilledMammal (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hope this satifies you . EkoGraf (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Injured and missing Brazilians
What are the criteria for adding people from other countries affected by the conflict to the 3rd box in the infobox?Like Nepalese and Thai. Because it was reported that 2 Brazilians were in the Unniverso Paralelo party who are missing (dead or kidnapped) and one injured. Source: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/mundo/2023/10/ataques-em-israel-deixam-um-brasileiro-ferido-e-dois-desaparecidos.shtml OLuizgs (talk) 13:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Good question. Theres also the fresh reports from antony blinken that several american citizens are "dead, missing". Also, the indonesian medic that was killed by Israeli forces is also gone from the infobox. Poles Ragge (talk) 13:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you send any current sources on the disappearance, injury or death of Americans in the conflict? I couldn't
 * t find. OLuizgs (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * So, firstly the "Times of Israel" live ticker Article [ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/blinken-says-there-are-reports-of-several-americans-killed-missing-in-israel/ ] referenced Antony blinken. Better to say, a tweet from Kaitlan Collins [ https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1711006008938545162?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711006008938545162%7Ctwgr%5E8fe039b4122680206efde0c5bf80fbfe44529a41%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2F%3Fpost_type%3Dliveblog_entryp%3D3115970 ] where she said that Antony blinken told CNN that several american citizens are dead and/or missing.
 * The German goverment announced that atleast 2 german citizens are missing/kidnapped by Hamas. The news channel "Die Welt" is reporting on that.
 * I could only find stuff about one of the two dissapeared german citizens, Charlie Louk..
 * Her mother posted a video on social media, saying she recognized her daughter in a hamas video. According to her and "Die Welt", Charlie is that girl in that video where Hamas fighters film a lifeless body of a woman on a pickuptruck, surrounded by hamas soldiers that are chanting (Video is graphic).
 * According to the Swiss goverment news channel "SRF", there were no reports of swiss citizens missing, kidnapped or killed at the moment of writing (16:00 UTC+1). The swiss live-ticker is here: https://www.srf.ch/news/international/grossangriff-auf-israel-mindestens-500-tote-in-israel-hisbollah-angriffe-im-norden.
 * Im swiss, if anyone needs translation of swiss or german news, i am here.
 * Also, SRF cited the official swiss Departement für auswärtige Angelegenheiten (EDA) aka the swiss Ministry of foreign affairs.
 * At the moment of writing, thats all i know. Poles Ragge (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

more info
From the beginning of the event (documentation that became less unusual) "Extraordinary documentation: terrorists have infiltrated the surrounding settlements and are shooting" https://www.mako.co.il/pzm-soldiers/Article-af01eb8bf780b81026.htm

The fighting is still going on in some areas, 8.10.2023 (https://news.walla.co.il/item/3614541, https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryczojxwa): "Terrorist squad in Kibbutz Bari, exchange of fire on the spot 2023" "The difficult battle in the Gaza village continues: "The biggest nightmare of the residents of the Otaf has come true"

results:

"The father and daughter were kidnapped and managed to escape, the traces of the mother disappeared" https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-560435ee64e0b81027.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802

"Reports that several Americans killed - Blinken"

'"The terrorist murdered the grandmother, took a picture and uploaded it to her Facebook. That's how we found out" | Chilling evidence from the terrorist attack' https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rykxjfxb6#autoplay

'Biden's Secretary of State announced that in the next few days the US will announce military aid to Israel. Compared to 1973, he said: "Then there was a war of army against army. This time it is an attack by a terrorist organization. Women, children and a Holocaust survivor in a wheelchair were kidnapped to Gaza"'

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/h1jq4eg11p#autoplay "After the exchange of fire with Hezbollah: Gallant instructed to prepare for the evacuation of settlements in the north"

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryczojxwa "This morning the dimensions of the disaster are also revealed in Kibbutz Nahal Oz. According to the residents, at least 20 terrorists infiltrated the kibbutz territory yesterday, more than five of them including children were murdered. The terrorists also took hostages from the kibbutz with them. Residents are being evacuated to Mishmar Ha'Negev"

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/s1nlru0x6 https://www.ynet.co.il/blogs/war2dayevening "A day after the start of the attack on the Gaza Strip, when the security forces arrived in the settlements, the depth of the horror that took place there was revealed. In Kibbutz Nir Oz, as in Bari, many of the buildings caught fire. The terrorists burned houses to make the residents come out, to shoot them or kidnap them."

"In Ofakim they relive the day of the hard fighting: "I fortified myself with the gun, protecting the family. That's what there is"" https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-10-08/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018b-0f0f-dae9-adcb-afbf25f20000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 15:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Belligerents
Hi. Popular Resistance Committees lauch attacks with drones on Israel, someone can add this organisation to the belligerents ? Thanks. Idem for al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who publish videos.

(source PRC : https://qaweim.com/) (source al-Aqsa : https://nedal.net/) AnthonyRd71 (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas casualties per IDF
I would like to clarify that I was forced by another editor to remove a source  explicetly stating that the IDF's claim of Hamas casualties was for both militant deaths in and outside of Gaza. The editor in question insists on saying the figure is for deaths inside Israel only, calling upon a BBC report which said 400 were killed "during the fighting in Israel", which is ambiguous to me. In any case, I leave it to other Wikipedia editors to decide whether IDF was referring to all Hamas casualties or not and which source should be used. I myself do not intend to continue being part of this discussion any longer due to bad faith behavior experienced and will leave it to the rest of the editor community to decide which information is correct. EkoGraf (talk) 18:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * For reference, one more source saying IDF refered to Hamas casualties both in and outside of Gaza. EkoGraf (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Idk that the IDF is reliable for Hamas casualties any more than Hamas would be for Israeli. They are probably both unreliable for their own casualties for that matter. The casualties are being constantly updated so it's probably not that critical. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox casualties
I have merged the IDF, police and Shin Bet casualties with the note listing foreign nationals. Additionally I have also removed the number of displaced and the Israeli estimate of killed militans. The section seemed too large for the infobox and I think those should be listed inside the article like the list which shows the casualties of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Furthermore I consider adding (86% civilians) next to 700 killed in Israeli casualties, would you support this? Ecrusized (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Counting the number of Israeli civilians from the total would essentially be WP:SYNTHESIS, if you plan to subtract the number of Israeli combatants from the total. It's quite possible there are additional combatants who have not yet been identified in the total of 700+. -- Jprg1966 <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  19:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with the merging of the Israeli security forces dead to the note listing the foreigners. I also have no problem with the removal of the number of discplaced or Israeli claim of militant dead (due to its potential unreliability). However, I agree with that 86 percent shouldn't be added unless sourced, because it is more than likely there are still a number of Israeli combatants among the 700 dead who have not yet been identified. It will become clear in a few days. EkoGraf (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Map 2
The current map is in .png format since its too large to be uploaded as an .svg. However, you can download it as .svg at its page in common through MediaFire and export it as .png. The .svg format is very easy to edit and can be done using Inkscape, a free software. It can also be done using Adobe Illustrator, a paid but slightly more advance program. Personally I use Inkscape. You can also request changes at the files talk page. Ecrusized (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Mistakes/dis accurating at this paragraph
"It is the first direct conflict within Israel's de jure territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into Israeli territory, with several attacks on surrounding Israeli civilian communities and Israeli military bases. Some observers have referred to these events as the beginning of a third Palestinian intifada. Israel formally declared war for the first time since the 1973 Yom Kippur War."

1. 2006 Lebanon War and 1982 Lebanon War ( first and second Lebanon Wars ) was declared as wars at Israel. The difference can be that they started as military operations and their status were changed because the events 2. the 1973 Yom Kippur War happened at golan height and sinai. The are outside of the Green Line (Israel). There were a few infiltrations into the area surrounding Gaza (the area that was attacked yesterday and today) through tunnels during operation Tzuk Eitan and the Israel Defense Forces dealt with them. In the current case it is broader and included a lot of damage to civilians and their kidnapping. 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:8B1:FC2F:B000:4280 (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * What exactly is wrong about the paragraph? Renerpho (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

WB Palestinian casualty count
Up to 13 in 24 hours, an unusually high number, if anyone can find sourcing on that, reasons for, etcetera. Selfstudier (talk) 23:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Section Israeli and international victims
Is there a section that lists the victims? Victor Grigas (talk) 23:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why are all support additions being removed collectively?
I tried to add the U.S supporting Israel but it was removed and called deprecated although this type of infobox layout is seen across Wikipedia? If it’s newly deprecated can the wording be changed to arms supplier? Bobisland (talk) 23:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * See section above and template discussion/RFC refers. Selfstudier (talk) 23:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Potential bias in 'Outside Gaza' section
Second to last sentence in Outside Gaza section states: "Video footage confirmed that a small unit belonging to the Palestinian militias had arrived at the Jewish settlement of Psagot near occupied East Jerusalem."

I am uncertain whether the "occupied East Jerusalem." is acceptable and would like someone to please review it. 2600:6C60:5D00:66FA:FCEA:5DC2:E74B:D324 (talk) 00:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas' amount of soilders
I ask you to remove the saying that Hamas' has "1000+ militants". The terror organisation has at least a couple tens of thousands alone, without the other terror organizations.

It is late, 4:55 a.m. here, so please somebody rlse find a few sources for Hamas' amount of militants, and maybe another one for the others.

Thank you in advance! רם אבני (talk) 01:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ❌ Hamas is certainly far stronger than 1,000, but the "strength" parameter is meant to describe the strength of units active in the conflict. See the template page. -- Jprg1966  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  02:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It may still be worth looking for a more recent source, or one that actually includes the cited figure. The current citation (in its archived form) does not give that number 1000 anywhere. As far as I can tell, it doesn't give any figure for the strength of Hamas's units. Renerpho (talk) 02:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jprg1966 The topic is of the war of Israel against Hamas.
 * For now, both are fully in war.
 * Therefore, their strength count shall be represented.
 * If you mean the suprise terror attack, and not the overall war, then that's a discussion to have. (Since a few hundred Hamas' militants entered Israel, while others shot missiles).
 * But regarding the war, both are fully in. רם אבני (talk) 02:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ I take your point. Given the fluidity of the conflict, as well as the failed verification that  mentioned, we should probably leave that field blank for now. -- Jprg1966  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  02:33, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Assuming you are right, would you have a reliable source for "your" figure of a couple tens of thousands? Renerpho (talk) 02:34, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

1,000 sounds inaccurate to me as well, but, for what it is worth, I think the figure comes from this article: https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/1000-hamas-fighters-infiltrated-israel-most-killed-or-back-to-gaza-blinken-101696810480050.html FortalezaNY (talk) 02:38, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that would be a reasonable citation to use for the strength parameter, if we decide to add it back (as "about 1000", not "1000+" which is still unverified). It can't be the original source for the number, because that article is only a few hours old, but that doesn't matter much at this point. Blinken said, quote: "We had about 1,000 Hamas militants who infiltrated Israel. Most of them seem to have either been killed or have gone back into Gaza." Renerpho (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC) Surely Blinken didn't get that number from Wikipedia, right? Renerpho (talk) 02:49, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Comparisons
Comparing this attack to 9/11 is a reaction some are having, as such it belongs in the reaction section and should not be state in wikipedia's voice. Other comparisons have also been made, to the 1973 war, or the Tet offensive (and broadly some have compared the Israeli occupation to apartheid). All of that should be attributed and put alongside reactions.VR talk 03:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Sexual violence?
It is mentioned in the lead that there was sexual violence. However, the links provided do not say this. Driving around a body of a naked woman does not imply there was sexual assault per se. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 03:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Seems your objection has some point. Lionel Messi Lover (talk) 03:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The woman wasn't naked either, it appears this is how she dressed normally (look her up). Even the Israeli commander who was caught was in his underwear. It seems a lot of them were simply caught unexpectedly, nothing sexual about that. FunkMonk (talk) 10:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * She was not a soldier caught unexpectedly, she was a german citizen murdered in a music festival 2A02:6680:110B:9A00:C4B1:4809:B0E2:1AD2 (talk) 12:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no proof that she is even dead, most likely taken for prisoner swap. FunkMonk (talk) 12:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The bullet holes shown in the back of her head on video aren't proof? 2603:7080:8F00:49F1:41BB:C608:C30A:AA5D (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * To add on to what you said, there is still a sentence in the article saying, “a video of Palestinians parading her unconscious naked body in a car,” which should be changed to reflect the fact she is fully clothed and was being transported as a prisoner, not paraded. 159.242.0.110 (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * She wasn't unconscious, she was dead. It wasn't transporting a prisoner, it was showing off and reveling over her corpse. 2603:7080:8F00:49F1:41BB:C608:C30A:AA5D (talk) 18:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There are multiple sources that say the opposite; she is most likely alive. The main goal of this seems to be taking prisoners for swapping, and it's entirely consistent with that. FunkMonk (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The earlier cited "Proof that the body was dressed"
 * https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUg10ttmlCkRrSaKwohEx3DV_9ghmpoqQX7g&usqp=CAU center image which is a still from the video of her body in the pickup truck which clearly shows her bra/top pulled up over her breasts. Notice how high up in the shoulder blades the bra/top straps have been pulled --straps that usually meet in the middle back. In that image (and more visibly in the video clip), her bare breast is visible from the side. The image also shows her miniskirt seemingly split up the rear --likely not the original state of even such an immodest dresser as the victim     Cramyourspam (talk) 04:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Did this ever get put back in? Because it needs to be. ''"Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies." Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza."

In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.'' Source. ⇒  SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)