Talk:Jazz/Archive 5

Errors
Possible errors re "Black codes" and drumming: In this article, the statement "The Black Codes outlawed drumming by slaves, which meant that African drumming traditions were not preserved in North America, ..." has issues. It is my understanding (but I could be misinformed) that many US slave codes (except in Louisiana) did ban drumming, for fear that slaves were using drums to communicate rebellion plans; however neither the Black Codes nor the Slave codes articles actually mention this. Also, it appears that these codes were only in force in what now are the first 48 United States, plus DC, but not in what are now Mexico and Canada; "North America" would therefore be incorrect. Acwilson9 (talk) 04:35, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Race
> White jazz musicians appeared in the midwest and in other areas throughout the U.S. Papa Jack Laine, who ran the Reliance band in New Orleans in the 1910s, was called "the father of white jazz".[24] The Original Dixieland Jazz Band, whose members were white, were the first jazz group to record, and Bix Beiderbecke was one of the most prominent jazz soloists of the 1920s.[25]

So which is it? White people have been involved since the very earliest days, yet the first half of the article claims it's an almost exclusively an African-American culture. Jazz has always been multi-racial. Always. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.125.173 (talk) 01:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Where in the article does it claim that jazz is "almost exclusively an African-American culture"?  The article makes clear that it originated in African-American culture, but soon spread more widely.   There's no conflict there. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

LEad
Lead is nice but does not mention one single jazz musician by name. That is odd. How can you discuss the music without some reference to its pioneers and its icons like Miles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.0.96.111 (talk) 17:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2020
Add the link to the Women in Jazz page please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_jazz Jlhayman (talk) 20:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Women in jazz is currently the first link in the section. Are you asking that it be linked somewhere else in the article? &#8209;&#8209; El Hef  ( Meep? ) 20:37, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * El Hef, I think a more obvious link is wanted. Jlhayman, this is done.  John M Baker (talk) 20:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

✅

Unsourced content and External links
I removed unsourced content from the "Themes" subsection per B-class criteria, as well as excessive "External links" per Linkfarm, to prevent reassessment of article and possible demotion. Unsourced content: "There was a resurgence of interest in jazz and other forms of African-American cultural expression during the Black Arts Movement and Black nationalist period of the 1960s and 1970s. African themes became popular, and many new jazz compositions were given African-related titles: "Black Nile" (Wayne Shorter), "Blue Nile" (Alice Coltrane), "Obirin African" (Art Blakey), "Zambia" (Lee Morgan), "Appointment in Ghana" (Jackie McLean), "Marabi" (Cannonball Adderley), "Yoruba" (Hubert Laws), and many more. Pianist Randy Weston's music incorporated African elements, such as in the large-scale suite "Uhuru Africa" (with the participation of poet Langston Hughes) and "Highlife: Music From the New African Nations." Both Weston and saxophonist Stanley Turrentine covered the Nigerian Bobby Benson's piece "Niger Mambo", which features Afro-Caribbean and jazz elements within a West African Highlife style. Some musicians, including Pharoah Sanders, Hubert Laws, and Wayne Shorter, began using African instruments such as kalimbas, bells, beaded gourds and other instruments which were not traditional to jazz.", and "unreferenced section" tag.

External inks

 * The International Archives for the Jazz Organ
 * Free 1920s Jazz Collection available for downloading at Archive.org
 * Jazz History Database
 * DownBeat's Jazz 101 A Guide to the Music
 * The Historyscoper
 * Jazz Greats in One Immortal 1958 Image (NYT, September 25, 2018) --- Otr500 (talk) 11:50, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

weird paragraph
> ...Arabia were melded into an intense, even religiously ecstatic or orgiastic style of playing

religiously ecstatic? what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SourceIsOpen (talk • contribs) 00:00, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2020
2601:900:4300:4A80:9D44:2F3:BC37:C785 (talk) 13:14, 30 October 2020 (UTC) let me see it
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Terasail &#91;Talk&#93; 13:44, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Guitar
Why isn't the guitar a typical instrument? --101.176.42.127 (talk) 04:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It wasn't until electrification came along because you couldn't hear it over the rest of the band.

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2020
Please add image of Betty Carter under roles of women:

Please add image of Ella Fitzgerald under roles of women:

Please intersperse images of other female jazz artists into the page.

Thanks! Julianne.sheehy09 (talk) 02:30, 7 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree - but where?  Looking at where these might be included - in sections where they should be mentioned in the text - it seems to me that there are other problems in the article.  For instance, the section on "Post-war jazz" says: "Vocalists of the famous big bands moved on to being marketed and performing as solo pop singers; these included Frank Sinatra, Peggy Lee, Dick Haymes, and Doris Day."   No mention at all of Fitzgerald, which seems bizarre, or of Carter.  And, none of those four mentioned are African-American - which seems more than bizarre.  If the source used appears to be unbalanced - which, to me, it does - the article should use better sources.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:40, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Vmavanti (talk) 14:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Adding one or both of the images to the section would make it look cluttered. KylieInTheSkylie (talk) 02:01, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The point might have been that Fitzgerald and Carter weren't marketed as pop singers, while Sinatra and Day were. No one questions the jazz bona fides of the first two, but they do of the second two. Doris Day really wasn't much of a jazz singer. Usually what happens is people will add something without reading what comes before and after the text they are adding. This leads to discontinuity and material that appears out of context. If we are going to be factual, there were female jazz musicians long before Carter and Fitzgerald. But the numbers game isn't one I'm going to play.
 * I accept your first point about "jazz" vs. "pop". However, the under-representation of women among the images included in the article is quite remarkable.  There are over 20 images of male musicians, and just one of a female singer.   MOS:PERTINENCE: "Strive for variety. For example, in an article with numerous images of persons...  seek to depict a variety of ages, genders, and ethnicities."    Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:52, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Vmavanti (talk) 22:51, 30 October 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 22:51, 30 October 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 04:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That's fine. You make a valid point. But the numbers game is always arbitrary. I pay more attention to facts and text.
 * Long stretches of the article are bizarrely under-illustrated. In fact the 2nd human image is a (black) woman - Ethel Waters, is it. There are I think only 4 images of white males, and none at all of white females, which is a little odd. Only 1 non-American too. There's plenty of room for more images. Johnbod (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * "bizarrely under-illustrated" is arbitary. I don't what know objective criterion could exist to determine "this article is properly illustrated" or "this article isn't." It's subjective opinion and it's not that important.
 * Whether it's "important" is a matter of subjective opinion. But we need to make a better attempt to comply with MOS.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean the text. The text is more important than the pictures.
 * I agree. But that does not mean that achieving a balance of images is unimportant.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Progressive music
Could someone put the Progressive music template here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C7:C201:C640:E94D:4B73:B1C5:9911 (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Missing key artists etc
Several artists are mentioned for each genre subheading and in other parts. However there are three which are conspicuous by their absence : Oscar Peterson, Stephan Grappelli, and the most successful jazz impresario Norman Granz. Experts, please consider including appropriate reference to these your next edit Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.125.96 (talk) 08:08, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Jazz as a mixture of musical traditions from different continents
This article contains a lot of information about the African roots of Jazz, but almost no information about the European parts of its formula (they hidden as "classical music"). I corrected this defect according to WP:notcensored, but some guy keeps reverting my edits without any constructive reason - seems like WP:pov-pushing.HernánCortés1518 (talk) 12:42, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You made changes to the lead, which, per MOS:LEAD, should be a summary of the main article. If there's not much in the article about the importance of European music, then that shouldn't be mentioned in the lead. The way forward, then, is to add sourced material (see WP:RS) to the main text that describes the influence of European music and then consider adding a brief summary of that to the lead. Having said that, the article is a hopeless mess and minor tinkering with details isn't going to address that. EddieHugh (talk) 14:27, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2021
Could someone put the Folk music template on this page? 2601:C7:C201:C640:B83A:C48F:A3D5:9776 (talk) 21:26, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:44, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Jazz is already listed on the Folk music template. 2601:C7:C201:C640:512B:9EBF:63D1:B7BD (talk) 17:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Kaitlinverchimak.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I found a typo, but I don't have what it takes to fix it
The sentence "In introduced more musicians to the New Orleans style." contains a typo but I can't edit semi-protected articles. Ergur (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. I've fixed the article.  Unfortunately, you've found one of our few protected articles (because it attracts vandals).  Once you've made ten edits, you'll be able to edit most of these pages yourself.  Until then, you can use Edit requests: just add something like Edit semi-protected along with a description of what needs to be changed, and someone will fix it for you.  Thanks again and happy editing, Certes (talk) 18:39, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for the pointer.
 * I just edit typos such as this one, so it'll take me some time to get to 10 edits.
 * But I will get there :-) Ergur (talk) 12:22, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2022
I would like to add a jazz music resource as external resoruce. Here it is :

Harrison Jazz Ensemble Tampa Harrisonjazzensemble (talk) 16:07, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: see WP:PROMOTION Cannolis (talk) 16:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2022
The first printed use of the word "jazz" as stated here, in the LA Times in 1912, is wrong. A dairy feed called "Jazz Dairy Feed," which would pep up your cows and cause them to produce more milk, was popularly advertised in Alabama newspapers including the Anniston Star as early as 1900. ZeldasGirl1 (talk) 16:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If true, this would be of enormous interest to scholars. But a great deal of research has not produced any references to Jazz Dairy Feed. If you can provide a copy, I promise that it will get a lot of attention, and not just on Wikipedia. John M Baker (talk) 01:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Here you go. The Anniston Star, Anniston, Alabama. January 1, 1900. The Cosby Company's "Jazz Dairy Feed." Jazz produces more milk at the least cost!
 * https://www.newspapers.com/image/105274212/?terms=jazz%20dairy%20feed&match=1 ZeldasGirl1 (talk) 14:03, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @ZeldasGirl1: Unfortunately, online databases often have dating errors and must be used with caution.  Although the page you linked is undated, another article on the same page, about the Smith & Usrey funeral home, has the subtitle "Firm Was Established in 1919 As Successor to Murphy Undertaking Co."  We can tell, therefore, that this use of "jazz" was not from 1900, but instead was from 1919 or later. John M Baker (talk) 23:32, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Jazz fans
Bugs Bunny favorites are the '''...Duke of Ellington, Count of Basie, Earl of Hines, Cab of Calloway and Satchmo of Armstrong.."(Knighty-Nite Bugs) Jack Webb was also a Jazz fan 72.49.143.219 (talk) 13:14, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Jazz in contemporary literature
Several jazz books have been written by U.S. "jazz author" and blogger Debbie Burke, who took alto saxophone lessons at the New School for Social Research in New York City in the 1980s and went on to play in several community bands in the Northeast. The books include, on the fiction side, GLISSANDO, A Story of Love, Lust and Jazz, which is women's contemporary fiction/midlife journey about finding love in a local jazz ensemble; Icarus Flies Home, a story about intellectual property and who owns a song, which examines a New York City bassist who finds out his ancestor, enslaved at one of the largest plantations in the American South, composed music which appeared to have been appropriated more than a century later and used in a Broadway show; and Death by Saxophone, a murder mystery about a jazz saxophonist and the owner of a very controversial Soviet "bone record" who is found in the Verrazano Narrows, having "fallen" off the bridge in the middle of the night. Burke's nonfiction books include two books of personal interviews with jazz musicians around the world (Tasty Jazz Jams for Our Times volumes 1 and 2) such as Christian McBride, Bobby Sanabria, Jane Ira Bloom, John Yao, Jeff Lorber,Dave Stryker, Harvie S, Ron Carter, and others; a book on Eastern European music of Ashkenazi origins titled Klezmer for the Joyful Soul; and a book examining the rich jazz legacy of the Delaware Water Gap region in Pennsylvania (The Poconos in B Flat) which has personal interviews with Phil Woods, Bob Dorough, and many others. DaisyEllen (talk) 00:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting/proposing something? All of those books appear to be self-published, so we probably can't use them as sources (see WP:RSSELF). And to be considered for inclusion in any Wikipedia article, there'd need to be meaningful coverage of them in reliable sources (see WP:RS). EddieHugh (talk) 16:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, yes, I personally interviewed them and received confirmation to publish them. The book's publisher is Queen Esther Publishing LLC. It is another source of information about these musicians; the interviews are new and unique content. DaisyEllen (talk) 18:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: notice that Queen Esther publishing is the self-publishing company of the author of the books, Debbie Burke. I don't know if you are also Ms. Burke (if so, WP:COI will apply). I have reverted the inclusion of the book to Bob Dorough article due to WP:BLPFR. Cheers. Alexcalamaro (talk) 21:25, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Getting familiar with your rules and guidelines here so please bear with me. I am the author and publisher- I interviewed this person - these musicians - at their homes or on the phone. In Dorough's case, he gave an amazing interview with lots of insights into his life and music and ditto for the musicians listed in the general JAZZ page. Thanks again, Alex. DaisyEllen (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Looking for veteran wiki eyes
Hello all! I am currently in the process of reviving the wiki page for Wally's Cafe, a historical Boston jazz club. I have to admit I'm a wiki-infant, a mere newbie, and I would appreciate a pair of veteran wiki eyes to take a look over my work and offer some constructive criticism. I am struggling most with tone. Thank you,

DovC123 (talk) 13:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The best place to ask about this would be the talk page of WikiProject Jazz rather than the talk page for the Jazz article. This talk page should only be about this specific page Carolina Heart (talk) 22:28, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Earlier uses of the word "jazz"
I have found earlier uses of the word jazz, although not in newspapers. The reliance on newspaper uses is misguided for several reasons: (1) "jazz," "jass," "jaz" and "jas" had vulgar connotations, and would not make it past an editor on a newspaper of general circulation; (2) it is highly unlikely that California newspapers had Black reporters or editors in the first decade of the twentieth century to inform the white sports reporters what the word "jazz" meant--one of the California articles cited simply throws up its hands and say "'Jazz' stands for whatever you want it to." (June 22, 1913 San Francisco paper); (3) baseball teams also weren't integrated at the time, so unlikely there would have been any Black players around to set their white teammates/coaches straight.

The earlier uses I have found are as follow:

1. Gunther Schuller interview of George Morrison, born in 1891 in Fayette, Missouri. Morrison says he first heard the word "jazz" in 1911--and says he remembers the year clearly because it was also the year of his marriage. This interview appears in Schuller's "Early Jazz: Its Roots and Musical Development," p. 362. Morrison painted the word "Jazz" on the side of the car that he used to drive his band to gigs.

2. Ray Lopez, New Orleans trumpeter, told Samuel Charters he first heard the term in 1912 in New Orleans, "Trumpet Around the Corner: The Story of New Orleans Jazz," p. 117. He says he heard it at a vaudeville rehearsal.

3. Wilbur Sweatman, born in 1882 in Brunswick, Missouri, told Jelly Roll Morton that he invented jazz before Morton, playing in the Ozarks in Missouri, John Szwed, liner notes to Jelly Roll Morton: The Library of Congress Recordings by Alan Lomax, Rounder Records CD 11661-1897-2, citing Roy Carew interview on deposit at the University of Chicago. Sweatman was nearly a decade older than Morton; the most extensive account of his life is "That's Got 'Em: The Life and Music of Wilbur C. Sweatman," Mark Berresford, University Press of Mississippi, 2010.

The Indianapolis Freeman, the Variety Magazine of the Black vaudeville circuit, reported in 1906 that Sweatman was playing jazz as early as 1906: "Little did we think that Mr. Sweatman's original style of playing would be adopted by the great jazz artists of today; but it is and Mr. Sweatman can claim the honor of being the first to establish it."

Sweatman was playing jazz as early as 1902 as a member of P.G. Lowery's Concert Band playing with the Forepaugh and Sells Bros. sideshow. He probably developed the style in the pre-circus parades through the streets of the towns where the circus was performing (known in the trade as a "ballyhoo"). His playing in these parades created a "sensation," according to Tom Fletcher, 100 Years of the Negro in Show Business, New York: Da Capo Press, 1984. Of these improvised variations on standard songs, one author said "it is unlikely that a faithful realization of a standard marching band clarinet part would have caused such a sensation.

W.C. Handy called Sweatman a jazz pioneer, W.C. Handy: Father of the Blues, p. 153 (New York: Collier Books, 1941). Sweatman recorded "Down Home Rag" in December, 1916, several weeks before the February, 1917 session by the Original Dixieland Jass Band that produced what some describe as the first jazz recordings. Sweatman was referring to his brand of music as "jazz" as early as 1912 and possibly 1910 (Berresford, 106-07, and Abbott & Seroff, The Original Blues: The Emergence of the Blues in African-American Vaudeville, 1899-1926, University Press of Mississippi).

My conclusion is that the baseball origin story has things exactly backwards. Jazz or jass was being played in New Orleans in the 19th century, and itinerant musicians who left the city took it with them, where it was heard by musicians elsewhere, particularly up the Mississippi and Missouri rivers to the Kansas City area. It eventually spread to the west coast, where white baseball players and sportswriters, unaware of its local meaning but associating it with uptempo jazz music spread to California by Jelly Roll Morton and others, transferred the term "jazz" stripped of its obscene meanings to baseball, where in a denatured form it meant simply "pep." Similar things have happened with other terms that were originally developed in Black speech: "uptight" was used by Stevie Wonder in a 1965 song to mean "good" (a cleaned-up version of the many "tight like that" blues songs that referred to sexual satisfaction), then came to mean "nervous" or "anxious" when used by white speakers.

I am the author of "Rabbit's Blues: The Life and Music of Johnny Hodges"; "Kansas City Jazz: A Little Evil Will Do You Good" (in which some of the above research appears); and "Don Byas: Sax Expatriate," to be published by University Press of Mississippi in 2024.

Con Chapman 617/909-5286 Conchapman (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting (and thanks for your work on the Hodges book – it's on my list of things to read). The summary in this article is of the Jazz (word) article, where some of the historical haze you describe is covered, although largely with different examples. The summary is broadly in line with what you assert: it was "related to jasm, a slang term dating back to 1860 meaning 'pep, energy'", then the baseball link refers to the "earliest written record" – "written" being important. Perhaps a fuller summary would add non-written accounts between the jasm and baseball accounts, although I think it would be best as something general such as 'several anecdotal accounts attest to the word "jazz" being used prior to 1912 to refer to a style of music', given that a lot of the musicians of the time had a tendency towards self-aggrandisement, so some of the specific claims might look fanciful. EddieHugh (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Suggested additional text for the Diversity in Jazz: Jews in Jazz section to include Shep Fields
Cioa fellow Wikipedia editors: Just a quick suggestion of additional text and references for the section entitled Diversity in Jazz: Jews in Jazz. The following text might be helpful:
 * Shep Fields also helped to popularize "Sweet" Jazz music through his appearances and Big band remote broadcasts from such landmark venues as Chicago's Palmer House, Broadway's Paramount Theater and the Starlight Roof at the famed Waldorf-Astoria Hotel. He entertained audiences with a light elegant musical style which remained popular with audiences for nearly three decades from the 1930s until the late 1950s.

I hope it proves useful. Many thanks for your consideration and Happy Editing!160.72.80.178 (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)NHPL 160.72.80.178 (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)