Talk:Jeremy Spencer

Untitled
The "hall of fame" external link showed that the band AND its key members were specifically honored. On that basis I suggest restoring it.--Kibbitzer 30 June 2005 06:11 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. --Monger 30 June 2005 12:28 (UTC)

Album title correction
The solo album of 1972 is titled "Jeremy Spencer and the Children" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.129.91 (talk • contribs) 03:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Alan Ward

 * This piece about Spencer being identified as being involved in child abuse confuses me slightly. If he wasn't charged, then how is this allegation proven?  Spencer hasn't answered these allegations as far as I know (if so, where is his statement?).  Surely if there's a case for him to answer, then charges would have been pressed?  How far is this from libel? Bretonbanquet 00:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Accurately reporting the facts does not constitute libel.  Is is an undisputed fact that Lord Justice Ward's 1995 judgement has the following information about Mr. Spencer:

THE ORAL EVIDENCE OF CHILD / ADULT ABUSE 8. MS. Her father is Jeremy S. [Jeremy Spencer] of Music with Meaning. Her mother is Dawn, a European Shepherd. … She said in her affidavit: From my earliest memories until my time in India, sexual activity pervaded The Family. Instances that stand out in my mind are as follows:- "My mother and my father frequently had sexual intercourse and performed oral sex with each other and with other people in the same room as us children, regardless of whether we were awake or asleep. I distinctly remember my father having sexual intercourse with Faithy Berg when we lived in a caravan in Greece. I was around four years old at the time." At the age of 6 she had to use both hands to masturbate Timothy in his 20's or 30's, ex-Vietnam veteran. At the same age she had to "help her father [Jeremy Spencer] out" which meant caressing him and mutual masturbation. From the age of 7 her step father made her masturbate him. She later told Mary Malay about her step father but not about her father because she liked him: "at least," she said, "he did not beat me". THE LEADERS' INVOLVEMENT IN SEXUAL ABUSE 8. Jeremy S. [Jeremy Spencer] His own daughter with understandable reluctance complained that he abused her as I find he did. He also abused MB. Music with Meaning was a particularly corrupt and corrupting organisation. He played a central part in it.


 * Just because Mr. Spencer has not been charged with or convicted of any crimes related to the sexual abuse of his children and other minors does not mean that Lord Justice Ward's ruling is libelous. I do think the article would benefit from the above quotes so the specific allegations, and evidence presented by Justice Ward is clear. Manicmoe 08:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because Ward's ruling may not be libellous, it doesn't mean it's correct. A good way to prove his findings are correct would be to actually prove them, and that hasn't been done.  I just think it seems unfair to include allegations against someone that haven't been proven.  If this was decent evidence, why haven't charges been brought against Spencer and this evidence used against him?  Is it because this evidence wouldn't stand up?  All this seems to be is someone's word backed up by a judge, against someone else who isn't there to defend himself.  It seems a bit one-sided to include this without some kind of addition to state that this evidence as found by Ward is not proven in any legal way.  Bretonbanquet 14:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Bretonbanquet: Your statement that the allegations against Mr. Spencer have not been proven is an opinion. After reviewing the evidence, including the statements (and in some cases, sworn testimony) of the alleged victims, the ruling of Lord Justice Ward,  pornographic video cassettes produced by The Family which feature Mr. Spencer, his daughter and 2 other children he allegedly abused (by exposing himself to them, having sexual activity in their presence, having them perform in video taped pornographic strip teases, having sexual contact with them, etc.), I also have an opinion about whether the allegations against Mr. Spencer have been proven. However, neither my personal opinion or yours (or that of any other contributor) belongs in a Wikipedia article about Mr. Spencer.   What belongs in the article are the facts about Mr. Spencer and not our personal opinions about those facts.   It is a fact that at least 3 people, including Mr. Spencer's daughter, have accused him of sexually abusing them when they were children, that Lord Justice Ward found their testimony credible and that other witnesses and video tapes corroborated their accounts.   The article makes it clear that he has not been charged with any crime.  Due to obstacles such as the statute of limitations, it is very unlikely that Mr. Spencer will ever face criminal prosecution for incidents of child sexual abuse that were not reported to a law enforcement agency until the applicable criminal statute of limitations had expired and happened more than 20 years ago in countries (such as Greece) that, unlike the U.K., have a relatively short limitations period for such crimes.  Manicmoe 07:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Manicmoe: You have just introduced a lot of information not previously presented.  On the basis of the level of information that was previously available to me, I don't feel that I was being unduly opinionated.  It was a reasonable point to make that evidence had not been effectively explained.  You have just said that you have been able to review all the evidence and I know you will appreciate that I, nor anyone likely to be reading this article, will not have had that opportunity.  Your introduction of the video tape aspect casts a wholly different shadow on the information given, and it would be worth citing full sources for that in order to add strength to what you have said.  Anything else you may be able to cite should also be added, either here or in some other relevant place, in an effort to provide a fuller picture.


 * I'm sure you will understand that information of this nature requires as much detail as possible for the purposes of a Wikipedia article. I fully refute that I was expressing a personal opinion.  My level of knowledge extends only to Spencer's musical career - I don't really know anything about this case, so my only opinion was that it was not being fully explained. Bretonbanquet 09:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Justice Ward also specifically requested that those identified in his document by initials not be indentified further in any other way. I think this wikipedia entry violates that request. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.89.104 (talk • contribs) 20:15, 22 October 2006
 * Lord Justice Ward identified Jeremy Spencer by full name rather than initials. There are a number of text versions of the Ward judgment in which the name is inexplicably edited to read "Jeremy S." but this is not found in the original printed version that was released to the public. You may verify this at http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Complete_Judgment_of_Lord_Justice_Ward and http://media2.xfamily.org/docs/legal/uk/ward-judgment/ward-judgment-scan-low.pdf (296 pages, 25MB)Manicmoe 01:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Someone has come forward to state that Spenser abused children in this cult
Daily Mail 13th July 2007 "By Celeste Jones. Born into an evil cult, called the Children of God, sisters Celeste, Kristina and Juliana Jones were abused from the age of three. Torn from their parents, their childhood was dominated by the warped cult leader David Berg. How could a man stand by while his 11-year-old daughter was effectively raped by another man? The former Fleetwood Mac band member Jeremy Spencer was a member of the cult. On the regular dates we had, he would play a tape of saxophone music. The routine was, by now, familiar - undress, pray, kiss and then perform lewd acts for him. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.250.153.2 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I cleaned it up, put in more context, and sourced the quote. Take a look and tell me what you think.   J o ie de Vivre  °  15:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of abuse
It is highly unacceptable to have uncited sentences, paragraphs and even sections on this issue. Each statement needs carefully citing as it could potentially constitute libel. I am amazed that this has been allowed to remain for so long. Tom Green (talk) 13:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. This section of the article requires extremely careful sourcing. Some paragraphs have no citations whatsoever. This will need to be addressed or it risks deletion. It might not be a bad idea to take it higher up and get an admin to look at it in order to avoid the risk of libelling Spencer. Bretonbanquet (talk) 13:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have added more references in addition to the many that were already there.  By definition, something that has been proven to be true is not libel.  The allegations against Mr. Spencer are not vague but extremely detailed and explicit and based on verifiable information from reliable sources such as court records (including excerpts from 6 pages of a 295-page ruling by Lord Justice Ward), newspaper articles and published books (including "Not Without My Sister" published by HarperCollins in 2007 and which underwent a thorough and word-by-word review by a team of top lawyers in the United Kingdom and the United States before it was published) which is referenced numerous times in the section of the article concerning these allegations.  This information has been publicly known for many years and the reason Mr. Spencer has not sued the people (including Lord Justice Ward, his wife, his daughter "MS," Merry Berg, Celeste Jones and others) who have accused him of child sexual abuse and those (including HarperCollins, the Daily Mail and a number of other newspapers and magazines) who have published information about these allegations is because the evidence is voluminous and irrefutable.  Wikipedia has nothing to worry about because the information in this article is accurate and very well-sourced.  However, I do think it is libelous, defamatory and highly irresponsible to accuse Lord Justice Ward and the people who testified under oath, spoke publicly and published statements, regarding alleged child sexual abuse by Mr. Spencer, of perjury, judicial misconduct and other crimes without offering a shred of evidence.  Manicmoe (talk) 13:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No one has accused anyone of anything like that. In a subject matter of this nature, each statement, even sentence, requires a source - even if it is one that has been used multiple times. Tom Green (talk) 08:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You wrote that "[e]ach statement needs carefully citing as it constitutes libel." Thus, your accusation was that these statements about Mr. Spencer constituted libel.  For them to be libelous, they have to be false and accusing those (Lord Justice Ward, Fiona Spencer (Jeremy Spencer's wife), Mery Berg, Celeste Jones, MS (Jeremy Spencer's daughter), The Family/Children of God, Harper Collins, The Daily Mail, some Wikipedia contributors and others) who made or published these statements of libel implies (depending on which person or organization is involved) that they are also being accused of the other things I mentioned such as perjury, judicial misconduct and other crimes.  To prove that all the allegations of child sexual abuse against Mr. Spencer are false and that making them constitutes libel, one would have to prove the existence of a vast and extraordinary conspiracy involving dozens of people (including those who testified under oath in a court of law) and the creation of a huge amount of phony evidence (including many hours of video footage).  Asserting that all these allegations constitute libel is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence before it is made. If statements in this or any other Wikipedia article constitute libel, the only remedy is to remove them and careful citing is not going to make any difference.  Of course, in this case it is absolutely clear that nothing in the current revision of the article constitutes libel. However, I see now that you didn't really mean that these statements constituted libel but something else entirely which your second comment makes clear and is a position that I generally agree with.  I am not sure if every single sentence needs to have its own footnote but that is easily done since there is at least one (and in some cases as many as 6) corresponding source for every single sentence.   So, if I have understood your position correctly, I believe we are in agreement.  Manicmoe (talk) 18:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This entire section seems to have been removed, which seems problematic, given the sheer number of allegations and petitions that exist. Merely stating that allegations have been made against him (with more coming soon, which is how I ended up searching him) doesn't take a position on whether they are true or false, and are just a fact, not libelous. https://blog.safepassagefoundation.org/jeremy-spencer-a-child-abuser-unworthy-of-your-support/
 * Why was the entire section removed? 93.117.214.54 (talk) 15:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Additional allegations are recorded in Daniella Mestyanek Young’s 2022 autobiography uncultured. The section about the abuse should be reinstated and updated with the additional source. 2600:1700:28A0:318F:FC11:B3A6:F721:C3 (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic
I know Wikipedia enjoys these long controversy sections, but the allegations of abuse section needs to be summarized and all the various participant statements moved to a more appropriate place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 6.3.55.1 (talk) 21:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I have removed a great deal of cruft. If you really need to expand the section, please do so, but a list of he-said she-saids, particularly one that takes up more than half the entry, is unencyclopedic and should be avoided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 6.3.55.1 (talk) 19:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Anticipating complaints and reversions of the above IP editor's recent edit reducing the section to one paragraph, he/she clearly did post here attempting to start a discussion, and nobody joined in, or objected. The quoted sections were not necessary, given that it's all there to be read in the references, and the whole section was unnecessarily detailed and long-winded. I suspect that some editors will expand the section again, but it needs to be more encyclopedic. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The White Album
Jeremy Spencer's 1970 "Jeremy Spencer" album has apparently been reissued on CD (in the UK?) by FootPrint Records (FPR 29004). Not sure how official it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 6.3.55.1 (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's a pirate thing. I'll ask him. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:51, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

TheJeremySpencer Youtube Channel
Not sure if you want to list it but :

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheJeremySpencer

Honemelgren (talk) 13:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

"best known"
No-one's yet explained the reason for their desperation to have this phrase in the article. It is an assumption, an opinion, and what you would need to turn it into a fact would be a global poll asking a representative sample of the population what they know him for, which of course does not exist and never will exist. At a conservative guess I'd say 99% of the world's population would never even have heard of him anyway. NPOV requires that you state the facts and don't judge them. What next? The Moon, best known for being the Earth's largest natural satellite? Berlin, best known for being the capital of Germany? This inanity needs to stop. 190.162.52.196 (talk) 04:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It's been explained a number of times. Spencer is notable for one thing – being a member of Fleetwood Mac. That is a fact. He is not Wiki-notable for anything else. I don't know what part of that you can't understand. Why have you left the lead sentence to say he was a member of Fleetwood Mac? Answer: because that's the most important, most notable, and best-known thing he's ever done. Your global poll stuff is a crock. You seem to have very strong ideas about what he is or isn't best-known for, when you freely admit you don't even have a clue who the guy is. Bretonbanquet (talk) 08:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * No, you have not explained how "X is Y" is somehow not clearer, simpler and more objective than "X is best known for Y". You have not explained why you are insisting on putting opinions into the article.  You are too stupid to distinguish between fact and opinion and that's a remarkable handicap for someone who is editing an encyclopaedia.  You really should learn the difference.  In the mean time, perhaps my next edit will indicate to you just what a moronic crusade you are on here.  190.162.52.196 (talk) 01:19, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think I'm going to try and explain this to you again. If you don't understand anything about the subject of an article, it would be worth you leaving it alone. Maybe you wouldn't get blocked so often. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Should the article for Jeremy Cedric Spencer be named "Jeremy Spencer (guitarist)"
Five Finger Death Punch and Fleetwood Mac are both very prominent bands. Should the article for Jeremy Cedric Spencer not be named "Jeremy Spencer (guitarist)", with Jeremy Spencer becoming the disambiguation page? --Jax 0677 (talk) 02:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You are joking, right? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  03:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 *  Reply - With the younger and/or heavy metal generations, the name "Jeremy Spencer" resonates more closely with Five Finger Death Punch than it does with Fleetwood Mac. In 2012, he was named Golden God's "Best Drummer" by Revolver Magazine.  Like Maximum Overload, I feel that there is no longer a primary topic. --Jax 0677 (talk) 05:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's even close. Wikipedia doesn't just cater for the younger generations. I've never even heard of FFDP, and I'd be willing to bet I'm not alone. The drummer might have won an award from a minor music magazine, but the guitarist is in the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame. It's not scientific, but "Jeremy Spencer Fleetwood Mac" receives exactly twice as many google hits as "Jeremy Spencer Five Finger Death Punch". Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:09, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Any further discussion should take place below in the formal move request. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  13:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page not moved: no consensus Ground Zero | t 02:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Jeremy Spencer → Jeremy Spencer (guitarist) – In 2012, Jeremy Spencer Heyde was named Golden God's "Best Drummer" by Revolver Magazine. Like Maximum Overload, I feel that there is no longer a primary topic for Jeremy Spencer. Jax 0677 (talk) 08:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)--Jax 0677 (talk) 08:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


 * oppose a current flash in the pan of minor recognition does not overcome DECADES of widespread recognition. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  13:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 *  Reply - I am not saying that Heyde is more popular, or that Heyde should be the primary topic. I am saying that the term "Jeremy Spencer" could reasonably refer to either of the two people.  For example, Phoenix and Georgia both lead to disambiguation pages, even though the city and country are likely the more popular search terms. --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * both Phoenix and Georgia lead to DAB pages because both have WIDESPREAD and LONGTERM use in multiple contexts. Jeremy Spencer has WIDESPREAD and LONGTERM use in one context and NARROW and SHORTTERM use in another. There is no comparison. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  15:17, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment what would you do with the current location? -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 04:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose: This is already covered under WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Jeremy Spencer (the guitarist) is the "primary topic", since he is orders of magnitude more famous than that other guy. --Thorwald (talk) 15:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose: per my rationale in the above section. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment if this isn't moved, the target should be created as a redirect -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 03:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * the thinnest, weakest hairsbreadth of support, The "other guy" seems to have a face: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jeremy+spencer&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=uhoGVOW6JonY0QWEqoG4BQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1033&bih=529
 * also a move may create: Jeremy Spencer (guitarist), but on the plus side it would tidy the ridiculously long hatnote: "This article is about the singer / guitarist. For the drummer of rock band Five Finger Death Punch, see Jeremy Spencer (drummer). For other uses, see Jeremy Spencer (disambiguation)." I will leave this decision to people les ignorant of the field than me.  Gregkaye (talk) 19:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment: Of the 20 photos on that page, 15 of them are of the guitarist and 5 of the drummer. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Interesting to see that all information about child sex abuse has been scrubbed from this page...
by users with strangely religious user names "Casua qui" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.164.49.54 (talk) 06:59, 17 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree. Why is there not even a section about the allegations? The allegations exist. At a very minimum, that is a fact that can be agreed upon: https://blog.safepassagefoundation.org/jeremy-spencer-a-child-abuser-unworthy-of-your-support/. There is another memoir coming out soon in which another person who grew up in the cult alleges he molested her. I Googled him and found the petition above, and came to Wikipedia to read more about the allegations, only to see that there is literally nothing on his page. It's scrubbed completely. But above, it shows that there was at one point a section on Child Abuse Allegations. It seems as biased to leave this major fact about his life that he has been accused by multiple people off of the page than it would be to offer opinion and conjecture. He has been accused, and credibly from what I have read. 93.117.214.54 (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Don't understand why none of the credible allegations against him are mentioned here? [redacted]
Add references to allegations, there are many published sources available. 209.166.91.30 (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Is there any rationale for ignoring this completely? I would appreciate some justification for its removal. 2600:8800:7D00:15C0:151D:A5F7:3C7E:8B8 (talk) 05:28, 20 March 2022 (UTC)


 * See WP:BLPCRIME for why we generally don't mention unfounded allegations. Further, have they been mentioned in reliable sources? The last addition only cited a first-hand account in an autobiography. —C.Fred (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * At one point a good 75% of the Jeremy Spencer page was devoted to these accusations (with several apparently reliable references), see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeremy_Spencer&diff=prev&oldid=318717812 before being shortened considerably by a younger me. I just would like to be reassured that all mention of these charges have been removed for good encyclopedic or legal reasons, rather than whitewashing. 2600:8800:7D00:15C0:61E8:8E73:E2BD:FAE4 (talk) 07:23, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There is a new memoir coming out in September which will also reference a first hand account of being molested by him (though I am not sure the name is used, the author indicated in a recent online discussion that it was easily discovered and people had already identified him from the details.) But why not a single line about the allegations? You aren't validating them by acknowledging they exist. The existence of *multiple* accusers is not in dispute, and is just a fact. Petitions to stop his tour exist. Unbiased fact. See https://blog.safepassagefoundation.org/jeremy-spencer-a-child-abuser-unworthy-of-your-support/ 93.117.214.54 (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't have access to the book, but the only allegation I've seen in the discussions on Wikipedia is that Spencer was staying with the church at the same time as the woman that wrote the memoir.  signed, Willondon (talk)  16:11, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There are also at least two legal documents posted at xfamily.org documenting these allegations. See the link in my reply to C.Fred. 2600:8800:7D00:15C0:61E8:8E73:E2BD:FAE4 (talk) 07:33, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Update bio.
Update bio based on accusations from the book Uncultured. No more men lauded for their contributions without also laying open ways that they abused and harmed others 172.92.102.150 (talk) 03:51, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, so go for it. But make sure it's reliably sourced and follows all the rules laid down about allegations and suchlike. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:59, 2 November 2022 (UTC)