Talk:Jews/Archive 20

Jews per country

 * recent figures show that there are 45,000 jews in ITALY (i pretty sure there is less) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.23.99.136 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * recent figures show that there are 120,000 jews in australia (i pretty sure there is less)
 * I know, it is a bit bizarre question, but when we come to numbers, we should give a source for them. The numbers list now contains only three sources. The others should have a tag, I think. --195.56.28.249 16:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto--24.15.11.254 22:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I dont see why Israel isnt in the main table, although it has more jews than any other country the lead over the USA is hardly an exponential leap? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3.14 etc (talk • contribs) 18:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you mis-read it. To me it says:

Regions with significant populations Flag of Israel Israel     5,309,000[30] Other significant population centers: —  j acĸrм  ( talk ) 18:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That does make some sense but "Other significant population centers" isnt written as a header, if it were then it would be a lot more understandable(3.14 etc 13:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC))

Someone should reorganize that table of Jews per country so that the country with the most is on the top, and so on. That would make more sense.--The Judaic Jedi (talk) 23:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is Israel seperated from the other countries, and centre-justified at the top of the table when the other countries are left-justified? I didn't want to change it in case I am missing something, but it seems like it should simply be at the top of the list showing countries in descending order. If there is a reason it is not formatted the same as the rest of the list, shouldn't there be an indication why? Spock35 (talk) 03:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If you will take a look, for example, at Germans, you will find a very similar chart formatted the same way, with Germany at the top and centered, followed by a list of other countries. The point here is that Israel is the homeland of the Jews, just as Germany is the homeland of the Germans.
 * --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is at least one significant difference between Germans and Jews. A defining characteristic of Germans is their ancestry in Germany. Jews share a common religion, often a common culture, but not necessarily a common ancestry. Since the heading is "Regions with significant populations", I think it should reflect just that: regions with significant Jewish populations, and the US is as significant a Jewish population center as Israel is. In fact, until the last year or two there were more Jews in the US than in Israel.
 * FYI – Last week another editor started a discussion on this subject below. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 06:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Romania should also be on this list, considering the population of Jews it comprises. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.123.70.121 (talk) 07:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Related groups
Though it is obvious that the closest groups related are Semites and Arabs, what of Europeans, Persians, Azeris etc. with whom Jews have lived with and obviously intermarried and intermingled with. Shouldn't this related section include these other groups, especially since genetic tests and cultural traits (such as Yiddish being Germanic) show the obvious cultural fusion? I just want some feedback on this as this related ethnic groups section often seems inaccurate or based upon a single criteria, such as language. Tombseye 18:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E. Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples such as Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European). Dutch Jews from the Netherlands descend from north-western Europeans. Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites. Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites. Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites. Libyan Jews are mainly Berbers. Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry. Palestinian Arabs are partly Israelite. Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Kurds, Armenians, Italians, Palestinian Arabs and the Bene Israel of India are related to each other as well as to the ancient Israelite population. About half of Ashkenazim are descended from Slavs or Khazars who converted to Judaism and have no Israelite connection. Samaritans are descended from Israelite men and Assyrian women. Lembas (Bantu of southern Africa) have Middle Eastern ancestry (Yemeni) and are probably Jews who immigrated from Judea (according to their oral tradition) around 500BC, Over half of the Buba clan of the Lemba are genetically descendants of the Israelite Kohanim. Most Spanish-speaking Latinos of the American Southwest are descended from Anusim (Spanish Jews who converted to Catholism). The Mizo people of India (who believe they are descended from one of the lost tribes) have no genetic connection to the Israelites. Khazars, Crimean Karaites, Egyptian Karaites and North Caucasian Turks have not been genetically studied yet. Wayne (talk) 10:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * These are the key findings of the genetic studies done by Oppenheim, Hammer and the University College London:

The Jewish Population
Quoting the article:

According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."[13]

This is a bit misleading. Before the Pharisees' revolution, Judaism was a proslytizing religion, and tried to convert as many people as possible to Judaism. However, after the Pharisees, Jews started to consider themselves a people whose purpose was to set an example for other people. Judaism was considered a burden and a responsibility rather than a mark of excellence.

Therefore, it is possible many of the converted Jews were not really an integral part of the Jewish people, and so later converted to other religions, or were relieved of their Jewish entity. The real Jews who persisted were much fewer than those who considered themselves Jews at the peak.

So I think it should be noted.

-- User:Shlomif ---10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)~


 * I would be very interested in seeing a source of the change in in Judaism about proselytizing
 * Also, converted Jews are considered and "integral part" of the Jewish people. So I don't see how it is relevant. Jon513 10:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

sorry, but I find it really hard to believe that there are just 13 million Jews worldwide. this figure seems to be grossly understated. I think it might have something to do with the fact that many Jews adopt a secular name apart from a Hebrew name and intentionally opt to keep a "low profile". Feels like I have seen 13 million Jewish actors on American TV alone in the last 10 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.218.198 (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

there would be 19 million if it wasnt for hitler...just saying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.25.108.46 (talk) 11:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, so it states several times in the article that the worldwide number of jews is 13 millions, still the tablet adds up to 15,8 millions, why's that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.184.109 (talk) 09:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Jewish DNA ?
There is no scientifically acceptable standard for Jewish DNA. Dr. Robert Pollack, a professor of biological sciences and director of the Center for the Study of Science and Religion at Columbia University, makes the following important observation in his online article The Fallacy of Biological Judaism

JON MOSELEY RESPONDING: THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. DNA ANALYSIS HAS SHOWN THAT JEWS AROUND THE WORLD (despite being scattered all over the world) ARE INCREDIBLY UNIFORM GENETICALLY, and that they share a common genetic heritage from the Middle East dating back 3000 years, and that they are sharply distinct from the populations in which they live. Google for the principal researcher Hammer. I will post cites when I get a chance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 (talk) 18:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

"Unlike asking "Are Jews a family?", as historians have traditionally done, geneticists seeking to advise Ashkenazic families are also, in passing, asking, "Do Jews all share the same versions of one or more genes?" -- a question with a testable, precise answer. As no two people except pairs of identical twins have exactly the same version of the human genomic text, this claim could be confirmed or rejected by a search for versions of the human genome shared by all Jews and no other people. Given the historical context of the Nazi "experiment," it is all the more remarkable that Jews all over the world have been flocking to the new technology of DNA-based diagnosis, eager to lend their individual genomes -- each a surviving data point from the terrible experiment in negative selection -- to a revisiting of this issue of biological Judaism. At a recent meeting of the Association of Orthodox Jewish scientists and the Columbia Center for the Study of Science and Religion, it became clear that Jewish curiosity has provided sufficient genetic material to give a perfectly clear negative answer: There is no support in the genomes of today's Jews for the calumnious and calamitous model of biological Judaism. Though there are many deleterious versions of genes shared within the Ashkenazic community, '''there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews. There is nothing in the human genome that makes or diagnoses a person as a Jew'''."

Re: "there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews" Of course this is true. Ethnicity is a useful abstraction not a characteristic with precise definition. That said, it would be a stretch to say there is no such thing as "biological jewishness" (biological Judaism would be absurd as Judaism refers specifically to the religion as far as I understand it.). In as much as there is a host of genetic diseases which correlate much more strongly with those descending from self-identified Jews and furthermore in light of recent Y haplotype studies, it is fairly clear that those who self-identify as Jews have genetic similiarities. 69.37.255.177 23:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)GMM

Frankly, it is an egregious flaw that this article doesn't make some mention of the evidence of genetic correlations between Jews. I would argue that at minimum the article should point towards the relevant articles on: Bloom syndrome, Canavan disease, Cystic fibrosis, Familial dysautonomia, Fanconi anemia group C,	Gaucher disease, Niemann-Pick disease types A and B, Tay-Sachs disease, and Y-chromosomal_Aaron. Other interesting evidence can be found by searching for jewish y haplotype, jewish mitochondrial DNA, etc. etc. at www.pubmed.org scholar.google.com or any other biomedically oriented search engine one might prefer. 69.37.255.177 23:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)GMM

Karl Marx ?
Fellow Wikipedians. I wonder why on the picture on the top right corner of this article the photo of Karl Marx is not included. He was one of XX century’s greatest philosopher (some say the greatest). He also was a economist, sociologist and an anthropologist. I won’t make a edit in this article. I first want to discuss it. Regards to all. Cheers. Revizionist 20:23, 07 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And, from what I recall, a holder (and publisher) of antisemetic views. Perhaps not the best choice. -- Sammermpc 19:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And the small fact that he was not Jewish. Benjil 19:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, not after he was six, anyway. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 21:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How was Karl Marx not Jewish? He was certainly born to a Jewish mother and is usually cited as Jewish by most scholars, regardless of which faith he was raised in. (I don't think he should be in the infobox either, for the record). All Hallow&#39;s Wraith 05:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * His family converted to Protestantism when he was 6 or so. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 06:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I know, hence "regardless of which faith he was raised in" All Hallow&#39;s Wraith 06:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Fellows, I protest. How can you discuss like this. To be Jewish is not only to be religiously Jewish. For example Benedict Spinoza was an ethnic Jewish, but he was disappointed from how the Jewish community in Holland was run by oligarchs, and he converted. Yes, he became protestant afterwards, but he remained ethnic Jewish. Marks too was, and he remained an ethnic Jewish, although his parents changed their fate. Changing ones fate does not change his ethnicity. In the same way, if a young Jewish says he is an atheist, we can not say that automatically he stops being a Jewish. That's why I think that we should include Marx in the picture in the information box, and also separate some space in the article about him - for he is the man that made such changes the last century. Thanks in advance. Revizionist 11:09, 08 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's probably more fair to describe Judaism as a culture than an ethnicity, if for no other reason than one cannot convert to an ethnicity. The accounts I can find say he was brought up in a secular/Lutheran home, and he eventually adopted atheism. This means he was neither culturally nor religiously Jewish. We did not dedicate article space to any of the other Jews listed in the infobox (Einstein, Maimonides, Meir and Lazarus) so I see no reason to dedicate article space to Marx. Space in the infobox is limited. I believe the pictures there should be the 4 people that best personify "Jew," the subject of the article. His influence in other areas notwithstanding, Karl Marx isn't one of them. Now Groucho on the other hand... --Clubjuggle 13:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

JON MOSELEY RESPONDING:  Karl Marx was an atheist who rejected his Jewish heritage. Karl Marx's father converted the entire family to the Lutheran religion when Karl Marx was a young boy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 (talk) 18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's like saying I'm a Native American but I reject my Native American heritage and therefore I shouldn't be considered a native american. Whether Marx rejects or accepts his heritage, it doesn't matter, he is Jewish. 209.222.2.2 (talk) 01:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC) AKA Scifiintel


 * Who are you to decide who is and who is not jewish. Like the article, the discussions and numerous sources suggest, there are different ways of determining what jewishness is. If you believe there exists a jewish heritage and culture that is impossible to free oneself from, then you hold one kind of jewish nationalist ideology. But your view is by no means universal. Neither is your view on "nationality" I might add, but that's a different story... 217.157.128.95 (talk) 09:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Karl Marx was Jewish, Jewishness is an ethnicity-argues the state of Israel and most Jews, many famous Zionists and Jews were not religious, you could argue Einstein was an atheist or at least an agnostic, certainly not an orthodox Jewish believer, yet he has a place here. Marx is in some ways even more important than Einsteain, depending on what you consider important, whether you are a communist or a capitalist. I also dispute he was antisemtiic he wrote the essay 'on the Jewish question' and argued that Jews should 'extricate themselves from capitalism', since Marx was profoundly anti-capitalist (and I cant honosetly believe you didnt know that) this is not antisemitism. Also, who are you to determine who is Jewish and who is not? Many Jews dont really identify with Jewish culture or religion but would say that their ethnicity was Jewish, dont make such sweeping statements.86.133.101.176 (talk) 21:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia article Jewish identity: "Jewish identity is the subjective state of perceiving oneself as as a Jew and as relating to being Jewish. Jewish identity, by this definition, does not depend on whether or not a person is regarded as a Jew by others, or by an external set of religious, or legal, or sociological norms." By this definition, one is accorded the right of self-determinism in constructing one's identity. This seems an appropriate criterion to use here. In any case, people's whose identities as Jews are questionable (by this or other criteria) ought not to be included in an article on Judiasm! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.202.213 (talk) 16:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That is good enough for me and kind of nails it. At least, those who do or did not identify themselves as Jews (and might in some instances be construed as anti-Jews) are hardly the best choices as outstanding or representative Jews in an Infobox. Thanks. Hertz1888 (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Template Jewish user
P.S. I created a Template user for Jewish wikipedians (Template:User Jewish). I hope you aprove it and like it. Cheers. Revizionist 14:52, 08 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please consider deleting it as soon as possible. It looks like a vehicle for either self-hatred, extreme pessimism, or both.  Is it meant to be ironic, or vicious?  Why must Jews be their own worst enemies? Hertz1888 20:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, it looks like the template was vandalized. --Clubjuggle T / C  20:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Note to editors reading this: At the time of Hertz1888's post, the template had been vandalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clubjuggle (talk • contribs) 20:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Clubjuggle, thanks for the clarification. The template looks much better now.  May it remain safe & sound. Hertz1888 21:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks for correcting that... I misunderstood it as well. MiniMary12 03:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys. I'm glad you like the template. Regards. Revizionist 14:53, 03 October 2007 (UTC)

DAB needed
For Jon Stewart. At the top oof the page with the exaple of Jewish people. I don't think that it is the right "Jo(h)n St(ew/u)art" Reginmund 18:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it should be any Jon Stewart. The caption is wrong (4 photos, 5 names).  I will pursue correction.  It has been this way for six months and you apparently are the first to call attention to it.  Congratulations and thanks! Hertz1888 19:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

It now appears that this problem may only go back three days. Just the same, thanks for noticing. It has been corrected. Hertz1888 20:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

under diaspora: systematic persecution?
There's a line about "systematic persecution" in arab lands and it cites this source that I looked up and it does not mention it. If I am overlooking this, please let me know, but the last systematic persecution I heard about the Jews was in the Holocaust, not in 1950s Arabia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeilaStar (talk • contribs) 09:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic divisions
"The most commonly used terms to describe ethnic divisions among Jews currently are: Ashkenazi (meaning "German" in Hebrew, denoting their Central European base); and Sephardi (meaning "Spanish" or "Iberian" in Hebrew, denoting their Spanish and Portuguese base)." - What the hell? ethnically there are 3 types of Jews: Ashkeanzic (Jews of central Europe), Sephardi (Jews of Spain and Portugal) and Mizrakhi (Jews of Asia and North Africa). The only thing that is common between Sephardi and Mizrakhi is the rite (signon tefilah). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.87.201 (talk) 15:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello people what about Khazaria!!!
Yes well what about it? Nothing is mentioned of the fact that for roughly 200 years there was a Jewish state. I would be bold and add it in but I have neither the time nor the knowledge - but I do have the curiosity to wonder how this could be a Good Article if it misses a relatively important aspect. Tourskin 22:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.119.193 (talk) 20:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Romainiotes are the jewish populations of what is Greece today. They peak the yevanic dialect and have a heritage of over 2000 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.159.235.33 (talk) 14:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

History section
This section is almost completely original research, and is way too long. I think it is time to work on a way of shortening the section and moving some of the content to Jewish history.  Yahel  Guhan  05:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Jews and Judaism section of the article, there is not enough emphasis on the division between traditional beliefs and historicity. For example, Biblical figures (Solomon, etc.) are part of the tradition, but their part in history is debatable. Of course, they need be mentioned, however a disclaimer or better wording is definitely called for to improve the validity of this article.

Jews per country
Come on people: there are more than 13 million Jews in America alone! I find it very hard to believe that there are 13 million Jews in total around the world today in 2007. It might have something to do with the fact that many Jews adopt secular names besides their Hebrew birth names and intentionally choose to keep a low profile for whatever reason. It also seems that they are only too happy with this gross understatement. Read the credits at the end of movies and TV shows in USA alone in the last 10 years and you will exceed 13 million individuals! Why the continuous understatement? In order not to attract Christians' attention?? hmm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.218.198 (talk) 18:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The numbers are wrong. There are more in the U.S.

-G


 * If you have a credible source for your claim, please cite it, and we can change the numbers. Note that the size of the Jewish population in the US is controversial, stemming from the question of "who is a Jew" (if one parent is Jewish - do you count that person as Jewish? etc). okedem 08:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This has mostly to do with different ways of counting Jews. The current source cited takes a particularly exlusionary perspective. I pulled this from the report.

Indeed, after critically reviewing all available evidence on Jewish demographic trends, it is now plausible to claim that Israel has overtaken the United States in hosting the largest Jewish community worldwide. At least, concerning the core Jewish population not inclusive of non-Jewish members of Jewish households and other non-Jews of Jewish ancestry...

That seems suspect to me, and at odds with the traditional definition given in Who is a Jew? (convert or of a Jewish mother). I can't really imagine who are the 'non-Jewish members of Jewish households', the family dog? In any case, I think the study deliberately makes the mysterious distinction between core and non-core Jews to ignore the large numbers of secular and atheist Jews in the United States. Meanwhile, the numbers quoted for Israel, at least in eyeballing the 2006 Israeli census, seem to include every Jew in Israel, regardless of the strength of their cultural affiliation.

That seems somewhat disingenuous to me, but I am not an expert. A US census report in 2003, using a less-stringent (and dare I say, less-biased) metric, found some six million Jews in the United States. Of course, they also admit to using a broad compendium of sources. -- Sammermpc 17:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You have to understand that American Jewish community surveys are designed with a very specific purpose in mind: retaining people in the Jewish community. I read about this survey before, and I believe "non-core" Jews are people of partial Jewish descent who don't identify strongly as Jews, and that members of other religions are considered more "non-core" than atheists.  I'm pretty sure "non-Jewish members of Jewish households" means non-Jewish spouses of Jews, who the organized Jewish community would like to convert to Judaism, so that the family would raise their children as Jews.  Anyway, you'd have to look at the exact methodology to make an proper comparison between surveys in Israel and the US.--Pharos 04:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

They say in some census that in the States there are, at least, more than 7 million jews, what about that?--Enkiduk (talk) 22:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

WRONG 13 million jews world wide. Aprrox 5 million in america, 4.5 in israel. Jew just work hard that is why they are successful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.186.6 (talk) 12:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Khazars
why Khazars are not mentioned in the article at all? :-( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.54.190 (talk) 03:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and add them. If you're logged in, I believe you can edit every page. -- Sammermpc 00:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * can any body add 'em? I am not well in writing article, just 'coz english is not my native langeuage, so I see no reason to register. Therefore it would be much better if native speaker would add 'em —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.193.233.66 (talk) 03:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * My ignored comment as well. Tourskin 01:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * may Khazars be added at least to "see also" list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.193.233.66 (talk) 03:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * can any body just add 'em? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.193.233.66 (talk) 03:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * please, add like this

==Khazars== Hebrew sing. "Kuzari" כוזרי plur. "Kuzarim" כוזרים;

Following their conversion to Judaism, the Khazars themselves traced their origins to Kozar, a son of Togarmah. Togarmah is mentioned in Genesis in the Hebrew scriptures as a grandson of Japheth.

Nowadays Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites call themselves as descendants of Khazars. . So they avoided of anti-semitic pogroms in Russia. Later during Holocaust, Crimean Karaites successfully avoided it (according paragraph 2, point 2 of the First Regulation to the Reich Citizenship Law), however 75% of Krymchaks were murdered.

Jon Moseley responding: There is a separate article on the Khazars, which is adequate. The Khazars were orientals who traveled from the East. No modern Jew comes from the Khazars, as demonstrated by their lack of oriental appearance. DNA analysis of the world's people proves that Jews are not related to the Khazars, but share a common genetic origin dating back 3000 years in the Middle East.

==see also==
 * Khazars
 * Krymchaks
 * Crimean Karaites

I'll add it, but it will need to be sourced first.  Yahel  Guhan  21:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The arrangement given above implies that Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites are definitively associated with the Khazars. As far as I'm aware, this association is, at this time at least, purely conjecture.  I see no reason not to mention the Khazars in this article, but the request above seems me somewhat dubious. Tomertalk  18:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Religion of Jews
There's an inconsistency on the infobox, wich says Judaism is "the" religion of the Jews. Either we take Einstein out of the group of pictures heading the box, of put "other" along with Judaism as religions of Jews, because, for example, Einstein was an ethnic Jew, but NOT a follower of Judaism (he was "pantheistic"). --Damifb 18:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The infobox is not implying that anyone who does not follow Judaism is not a Jew. It is simply saying that Judaism is the predominant religion of Jews.  Just like there are Jews who do not speak any of the languages listed in the infobox.  Jon513 18:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, OK then. Thanks 4 the clarification.--Damifb 21:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"Who is a Jew?" link
I think that the link to "Who is a Jew" is of high importance to the subject and deserves more than to be placed in a sentence explaining why population numbers are difficult to measure. The question's importance is far beyond just finding accurate head counts. The sentence as is states "In addition to halakhic considerations, there are secular, political, and ancestral identitification factors in defining who is a Jew that increase the figure considerably." I think this sentence, minus the "that increase the figure considerably", should be at the end of the first paragraph. 131.94.169.118 21:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of Jews in Israel and the United States
The article states that thiers 5.3 something million Jews in Israel, this is completely falso and obviously some years old since the actual number is between 5.45-5.6 million today. The number of Jews in the United States is also wrong since no one really knows the exact number but it is probaly closer to around 5.5 to 6 million Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.209.6 (talk) 17:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Error in population figure in Israel
SOMEONE FALSIFIED INFORMATION BY MISQUOTING THE SOURCE CITED. THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT ISRAEL HAS: "6,391,800 JEWS	OUT OF A TOTAL POP OF 7,114,400 AND THAT JEWS ARE 89.8%" AND CITES THE CIA WORLD FACTBOOK AS A SOURCE.

NOW GO TO THE SOURCE CITED: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#People SAYS TOTAL POPULATION IS

"6,426,679 note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (July 2007 est.)"

AND ALSO SAYS

"Religions: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004)"

IT IS ALSO WRITTEN ON THE MAIN ARTICLE ABOUT ISRAEL AND VERY WIDELY KNOWN BY EVERYONE FAMILIAR WITH THE COUNTRY THAT ISRAEL HAS ABOUT 20% Arab (Muslim & Christian) POPULATION.

THIS IS SERIOUS BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT DID IT DID NOT JUST USE A BAD SOURCE, THEY ACTUALLY MISQUOTED THE SOURCE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.251.59.241 (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow... Look, here's something you might not be aware of - on the internet, writing in ALL CAPS is considered shouting. Thus, your post was a really long scream. It's really annoying to read such posts, and I usually don't even bother, and just revert them, assuming it's some crazy rant.
 * To the point - I refer you to WP:AGF. No one falsified anything - someone probably just mistyped a "6" instead of "5" (but the percentage was correct). For a while no one did anything, and then someone else, who obviously doesn't know the facts, saw that the percentage doesn't match the numbers, and "fixed" it. Of course, he should have consulted the source, but was acting in good faith.
 * I've fixed the numbers, and changed the source to a more recent one.
 * In the future, when you see an error, just write about it in the talk page, calmly. No need to assume people are trying to "falsify" figures. okedem 18:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Jew: ethnic and religious
These are two different words that happen to be spelled the same because of it's origin. It's a homonym. This should be stated in the article to avoid confusion. Not all Jews (ethnic) are Jews (religious). Consider Atheist Jew. I would even go as far as creating two different articles for each word or at least separating this article into an ethnic perspective of the word and a religious perspective of the word. --Xer0 21:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. How about Jews (ethnicity) vs. Jews (religious group)? Or perhaps "Jews" and "Jew" could redirect to Jew (disambiguation) which would say:


 * A follower of Judaism
 * A member of the Jewish ethnicity. Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 00:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Jewish people, not Jewish race
"Jewish People" gets redirected to this article. But what is the difference between a "people" and a "race" ? Both are defined by ancestry. (no Arabs please). 24.64.165.176 07:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * One can join a people. Racial is genetic - races are genetically distinct populations.  Ethnicity (peoplehood) can be based on cultural ties, shared values, affiliation.  One can choose to be a Jew.  A wide variety of races are represented among the Jewish people.  Jews are not a race. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There are not many races represented among the Jewish people, at least not geneticaly-that is, Jew from lebanon is much more resamble with a Jew from Germany and vise versa and etc-from all the genetic perspectives from which it was studied (mtDNA, chromosome Y, genetic illneses and etc). Many people in the western society falling in this mistake, like the Jews are not a people as the French are, the germans are, the Japanese are, the Arabs are and simply all other nations except from extraordinery peoples like Brazilians, Americans and etc. However, this clim came from somewhat race-centric POV-it seem to them that if one Jew have suntanned skin, dark eyes and hair and etc, and the other have pale skin, blue eyes and etc, than-they are from different heritage-however, this is not what many A class genetical studies have shown for most of the Jewish communities with only the ethiopians (and for some extent the georgian and yeman jews as) exeptionals. Nontheless, any gentile who honestly want to become a Jew, can do it fully by conversion-process that been done only rarely during the almost 2000 last years since Jews were not allowd to convert.--Gilisa (talk) 17:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't forget the Falasha or Madonna. Funkynusayri (talk) 17:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

JON MOSELEY Responding: It may be helpful in this context to note that the Bible does not talk about a Jewish race, which is important because we get some of (not all) our knowledge of the Jewish people from the Bible. The Bible talks about Israel (the Jews) as a NATION or a PEOPLE -- never as a race. In fact the word "race" appears only 3 times in the Bible (other than the verb to race or the race as running a course). One reference is to the human race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.173.219 (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Hertz1888, even if someone of African or Asiatic decent converts, he or she is considered a Jew or 'Jewish.' Hence their race is different from their religion, meaning Judaism is NOT a race (so take your time! ha just kidding only a cheap pun). But on a more serious note you CAN be talking about judaism as an ethnicity. Look up the difference between a race and an ethnicity. --The Judaic Jedi (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Jews in Brazil and Argentina
There are more than 96,000 Jews in Brazil. The US embassy in Brazil puts the numbers at 120,000 (embaixadaamericana.org.br/index.php?action=materia&id=2988&submenu=press.inc.php&itemmenu=21), although in reality this number is around 150,000. As for Argentina, it is estimated that up to 250,000 Jews live in the country. However, the Jewish Agency for Israel puts this number at 200,000 (www.jafi.org.il/education/identity/2-4argentina.html. Can anyone correct those numbers? Davi

Current number of Jews
The article current states in the second paragraph that "According to the Jewish Agency, for the year 2007 there are 13.2 million Jews worldwide". According the Jewish Agencies web-site they "convened an emergency session to deal with what it called the "demographic crisis," there are now some 12.9 million Jews in the world. Earlier this year, estimates put the number at 13.2 million. The main reason for the decline appears in the data from the census of Jewish communities in the U.S." (see paragraph 2 on http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish%2BEducation/Compelling%2BContent/Eye%2Bon%2BIsrael/Demography/Online%2BReferences1.htm). Can someone please correct this inaccuracy? The article is still correct in general because it provides a range of 12-14 million.Lsleeman (talk) 20:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * the source seems to be valid. Perhaps the Jewish agency has many studies. Jon513 (talk) 22:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Jewish populations per country
the article states numerous times that the US has the highest population of Jews, yet the fact box on the top right of the screen reports that Israel has a larger Jewish population. I don't really care which number is used, but I think internal consistency should be a high priority. Rugz (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed; that top right table, and the table lower down, and the text all differ, refering to different sources. there's a little discussion about "who is a jew" for counting purposes, but it hasn't been clarified. Anybody want to dig in?Gzuckier (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust and Polish underground
It is difficult to see why an 11-sentence description of the Holocaust should have four sentences dedicated to praising the Polish underground for helping Jews. A more historically accurate perspective would focus on the fact that the majority of the Polish population was highly supportive of the Holocaust---Poland is one of the Nazi-occupied countries that had the most enthusiasm for Nazi anti-Semitic measures. However, neither praise nor condemnation of Poles is appropriate for a one paragraph description of the Holocaust, and I have removed the four sentences.

Momojeng 02:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I protest the removal of the section, as the Polish Underground, contrary to the understanding of Momojeng, played a significant and certainly Wiki-worthy role during that period. The excerpt should remain, even if it run against Momojeng's personal persuassion, as these events are well-documented. Aside from that, your statement about Poland are uninformed and inaccurate. Historically speaking, Poland has been the European nation most friendly to the Jews. I would advise some basic research. XParadigm777x 04:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with momojeng - the paragraph should go. Whether or not the information is "wiki-worthy" is not the question.  It is a matter of the relevance of the content in an article about Jews.  Jon513 16:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that the actual bit about escapes is rather relevant to the actual article, though I do believe that eliminating the quote within the section would be appropriate. XParadigm777x 19:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree with your claim that Poland has been the European nation most friendly to the Jews. However, this is not the place to argue about it, because, as I pointed out before, this is an 11-sentence description of the Holocaust. I don't see that you've given any reason that the small number of Jews helped by the Polish underground should occupy even one sentence of the paragraph, let alone four. If this section is to delve into the details of the Holocaust, certainly far more relevant would be descriptions of the thousands of Jews saved by the Danish people, the thousands of Jews that French Nazi collaborators willingly turned over to the Germans, discussions of how Jews responded to the persecution, the Kastner train, etc. . . But none of these important events appear in the paragraph. Momojeng (talk) 01:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

''"Poland is one of the Nazi-occupied countries that had the most enthusiasm for Nazi anti-Semitic measures." ''

I would like to see the actual rankings of Nazi-occupied countries and their enthusiasm for anti-semitism please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarian (talk • contribs) 23:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are simply in error momojeng. Even the most cursory examination of European history reveals amazing religious tolerance for Judaism in Poland when it was welcomed few other places in Europe. This history goes back over a thousand years. Moreover, as you should well know there are more Polish Chassidey Umot HaOlam than any other, by massive margin. To the extent you don't know what the Chassidey Umot HaOlam are, they are the Righteous Amongst Nations or Among Gentiles revered by Jews for their sacrifices on behalf of the Jewish people. This honor is bestowed by the state of Israel. Bear in mind also, that more Polish gentiles were killed by the Nazi's than Polish Jews (this runs to over 3 million dead for each group). Shame on you momojeng for either your ignorance or your prejudice. Misinformation about the Polish people does not help this site. Restore the four (or more sentences). And momojeng, please read more history. There were collaborators everywhere, but no people sacrificed more on behalf of the Jews than the Poles. Nor did any people share the horror of being labeled "Untermensch" and share the Holocaust horror more than the Poles. User Frank —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.215.158.128 (talk) 18:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit Required
Quote from the article:

"In addition to halakhic considerations, there are secular, political, and ancestral identification factors in defining who is a Jew that increase the figure considerably[3]"

This is here-say. The reference doesn't say anything or the sort. I'd imagine that the reference was added then "that increase the figure considerably" was tacked on the end. It should be removed and edits should be checked against the references they cite.

Cya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.247.129 (talk) 11:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Monotheism and henotheism
i have to correct your error the first monotheistic religion is from egypt. "The first claims of global supremacy of a specific god date to the Late Bronze Age, with Akhenaten's Great Hymn to the Aten (connected to Judaism by Sigmund Freud in his Moses and Monotheism),ect ." look under monotheism in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.8 (talk) 23:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thats not monotheism, that was henotheism - the supremacy of one god over many over minor gods. Tourskin (talk) 01:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Odd way to begin
The third sentence of this article begins with "The Jews have suffered a long history of persecution in many different lands". This is an extraordinarily emotive sentence. I'm not claiming that it isn't true, and indeed there are whole articles devoted to exploring it, but is it really how we want to set the tone for an entire article about the word "Jew"? It says to the reader, right off the bat, that the concept of "Jew" is all about being perscuted. This is surely a stereotype we wish to avoid. I suggest that the sentence be rephrased to state simply that jewish populations have fluctuated for a variety of reasons, moving the reference to persecution further down the article (the section equally emotively headed "wars against the jews" would seem like the sensible place). I apologise for lacking the boldness to do this myself, but I am sure many of you will understand why. Magnate (talk) 10:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the sentence need to be correct but for a completely different reason. The second paragraph is about the worldwide population of the Jews, and yet the first sentence is about  persecution.  The intro section should summarize the article.  paragraph one summarizes section 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; paragraph two should summarize section 6; there should be another paragraph for section 8 (History of the Jews) and 9 (Persecution). Jon513 (talk) 20:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)