Talk:Jiny Lan

Translation
Content in this article is translated from the existing German Wikipedia article at de:Jiny Lan; see its history for attribution.

COI Removal: 2021
help me

I would like to remove the COI tag from this article, as there is no conflict of interest that I'm aware of at this time (please see the many threads discussing and resolving below). However last time I removed it, it was put back. What should I do? Thank you. SStrevey (talk) 21:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * This does not specifically require an administrator, so I have made it a more general help request. As you seem to have the COI, you should not remove the tag yourself; an independent volunteer editor will see this help request and take action if needed.  Note that what is acceptable on the German Wikipedia is not necessarily acceptable here, as each language version of Wikipedia is its own project with its own rules. 331dot (talk) 15:27, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
 * From reviewing the article's history I can see that there has been little significant change to the article since the COI tag was placed. I believe, from reading the information here, that the placement of the tag was entirely appropriate. I cannot see any discussions 'resolving' this issue, and so I'm not going to remove the COI tag at this time. ƒirefly  ( t · c ) 15:38, 27 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Firefly I'm sorry, could you please help me figure out where the issue is then? As in what is causing the COI?  Is it the issue of the German page author's relationship with the subject, or something I, the translator and writer of the English version, can do?  I would like to resolve the COI but at this point have no idea what more I can do.  Thank you ! SStrevey (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

COI and submission update Nov 19 2020
I have removed the COI tag, as it is to my understanding that I've clarified below that the issue has been resolved, or that there was not an issue in the first place. I've also seen that this article was unsubmitted. I'm resubmitting it for review. SStrevey (talk) 01:10, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

COI (and autobiography?)
This draft is largely by. Among other things, it contains photos of two paintings by Lan: File:Meisterwerke 2019 - Joseph Beuys - Boys and Girls.jpg and File:Jörg Immendorf Monkey goes to Heaven.jpg. Gauthier W. de Reymaker says of both: "Own work". If they are indeed Gauthier W. de Reymaker's own work, then Gauthier W. de Reymaker is Lan and this is largely an autobiography. Normally I'd stick the autobiography template on the draft; but as this matter isn't quite clear I'm sticking the COI template on it instead. Perhaps Gauthier W. de Reymaker would like to explain. -- Hoary (talk) 12:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The article was paid for. It was created by Gauthier W. de Reymaker, from a German article and via User:Gauthier W. de Reymaker/Jiny Lan, and thence by, who announces that he or she was paid by Jiny Lan. -- Hoary (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, as we learn farther down this talk page, it's not an autobiography and is instead a (paid) translation by of the German-language article by Gauthier W. de Reymaker. (And SStrevey has been upfront about the payment.) But here's another oddity: although Gauthier W. de Reymaker's user page announces a wide range of interests, their list of contributions to de:Wikipedia is very short and exclusively concerned with Jiny Lan. -- Hoary (talk) 23:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

REPLY + PLEASE HELP
TO Hoary (talk) Hello this is Stephanie Strevey User:SStrevey, I'm a college student who was hired to unbiasedly translate ms Lan's article from German to English. I'm not sure who Gauthier W. de Reymaker is, but the entirety of the English document was done by me. I did not use anything besides the German article, and no one helped me/contributed anything additional. The photos were just taken from the original German article. Please let me know how I should proceed.

I'm also confused as I made this draft on my own account, it was started by me from scratch. Not sure why it says whoever Reymaker is is a primary contributor, unless they wrote the German one.

This is my very first wikipedia article so I really have no idea whats going on. -- SStrevey (talk) 06:42, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

UPDATE
I've confirmed Weymaker is the writer of the original German article. The photos listed as "Own work" are his own in that he took the photos of the paintings, not that the paintings are his own. He is completely uninvolved with the English translation, nor is he Jiny Lan. Please advise further -- SStrevey (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for responding, . There are copyright problems related to the illustrations; I'll do something about this a bit later today. As for the draft, just be patient and wait till it's reviewed. -- Hoary (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)


 * No problem please let me know if there's anything more I can do to help resolve this issue, I've been given Weymaker's email and information so I can contact him if necessary. Thanks .  -- SStrevey (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Jörg Immendorf Monkey goes to Heaven.jpg
 * Kunstaktion zur Documenta 2017.jpg
 * Meisterwerke 2019 - Joseph Beuys - Boys and Girls.jpg
 * Plakat Ein-Personen-Chor.jpg

Yes, COI
It's clear from commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files related to Jiny Lan not only that this is a translation of de:Jiny Lan (as was already clear from what's written above on this talk page), but that the author of the German-language article (and I quote him) "worked with Ms Lan to create the page". (None of Template:COI, Category:Wikipedia conflict of interest templates or Category:Neutrality templates has a link to a German-language equivalent, but I imagine that de:Wikipedia has some template that might similarly benefit de:Jiny Lan.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

What now then?
I have contacted the author of the German page that he must do something about the images and his article, but I don't know what else you would like me to do? From what I understand, my translation is not the problem, the original source is. So how can he fix the original source, so that I may tell him what to do (as he does not understand English well and I will translate the instructions for him? I'm also confused as to why his article is being contested now, when it has been published for over a year with no issue, and from what I understand the COI rules are different for the German wikipedia form?  Please let me know Hoary (talk).  Thanks.  SStrevey (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't know what the policies about COI are in de:Wikipedia,, but I'd be surprised if told that COI is simply ignored there. Assuming that it isn't ignored, somebody who's unrelated to Lan (and therefore not the article's author) should consider the article and work on implementing whatever de:WP policy stipulates. As for why it is that an article can be questioned after a year of acceptance, I imagine that the procedure by which new articles are permitted on de:WP is as rickety as it is here in en:WP: it's a matter of who happen to see the article, of the attentiveness of these people when they see it, and other factors that can be collectively described as "luck". This article doesn't look bad; by contrast, I've come across obviously trashy articles that had existed undisturbed for years. Or again, take a look at this edit of mine, in which I remove something within the article on a fairly well-known artist (and thus an article that would have been read): a little chunk that was part intelligible but mere fantasy, part mere gibberish, and that had survived unquestioned for five years. If problems aren't noticed and acted on promptly, that's a great pity; but better that they're noticed and acted on later than that they're just ignored. -- Hoary (talk) 01:18, 30 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your fast response, I told the original German author to wait and see what actions should be taken, and have explained to him the reasoning. What about the request for image deletion?  Should he wait on that as well?  Or is there anything else he should do?  I assume there's nothing I can do in the meantime, either.  Thanks again. SStrevey (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

ODDITY
User:Hoary Entschuldigen Sie bitte, dass ich Ihnen zunächst auf deutsch antworte. Vorab - herzlichen Dank für Ihre gründliche Beschäftigung mit dem Artikel zu Jiny Lan! Ich entnehme Ihrem Engagement, dass Sie sich sehr um die Seriosität und Korrektheit von Wikipedia-Artikeln bemühen. Dieses Anliegen teile ich. Insofern hat mich auch Ihr Kompliment gefreut, dass "this article doesn't look bad". In der Tat hatte ich sehr viel Zeit für die Recherche, Quellennachweise etc., d.h. insgesamt für die Erstellung des Artikels investiert, um den Ansprüchen von Wikipedia und meinen eigenen nach Seriosität und Nachprüfbarkeit gerecht zu werden. Die von Ihnen oben wahrgenommene Kuriosität ist rasch erläutert. Auf meiner Benutzerseite führe ich in der Tat ein breites Spektrum an Interessen auf. Ich verband damit die Intention, mich auf einer persönlicheren Ebene der Wikipedia Gemeinde vorzustellen. Sollte das zu dem Missverständnis geführt haben, dass nun weitere Wikipedia-Artikel zu den von mir angeführten Themen folgen würden, bedauere ich das. Das wollte ich damit nicht zum Ausdruck bringen. Wenn es bisher bei dem einen Beitrag zu Jiny Lan geblieben ist, so liegt das vor allem auch daran, dass ich die Erstellung des Beitrags als sehr zeitaufwendig und mühsam erfahren habe. Abgesehen davon, dass ich als "digitaler Laie" den Umgang mit der "Technik" von Wikipedia als stressig empfinde. Als Neuling ist es schwierig, sich in all den Regularien von Wikipedia zurechtzufinden. Dankbar dafür, dass mein Artikel im deutschen Wiki veröffentlicht worden war, wollte ich es danach damit zunächst gut sein lassen. Vielleicht können Sie das nachvollziehen?

COPYRIGHT
Ich bedaure, dass mein Englisch nicht besonders gut ist. Die Formulierung "worked with Ms Lan to create the page" ist vor diesem Hintergrund missverständlich. Ich hatte allerdings in der Tat vor Veröffentlichung den Text Frau Lan vorgelegt, um ihr Gelegenheit zu geben, die darin enthaltenen biographischen Angaben auf ihre Richtigkeit hin zu überprüfen. Frau Lan habe ich persönlich bei verschiedenen Ausstellungseröffnungen kennengelernt. Bei diesen Gelegenheiten hatte ich sie um die Erlaubnis gebeten, ihre Gemälde fotografieren und einige davon gegebenenfalls für den Wikipedia Artikel verwenden zu dürfen. Diese Erlaubnis hatte sie mir erteilt. Gemälde sind in der Regel Unikate. Nach "§ 2 (des deutschen)Urheberrechtsgesetz" tritt das Urheberrecht automatisch mit der Schöpfung des Gemäldes ein. "Gemälde, Skulpturen oder Collagen werden aber vor allem im Original verkauft und haben ihren Wert, gerade weil es sich dabei in der Regel um Unikate handelt" (Quelle: https://www.urheberrecht.de/gemaelde/). Daher sieht der Gesetzgeber beim Urheberrecht für Kunstwerke eine Sonderregelung vor – das sogenannte Folgerecht..." (Quelle: https://www.urheberrecht.de/kunstwerke/). Das Fotografieren von Gemälden ist in vielen deutschen und europäischen Museen erlaubt. Gegen eine kommerzielle "Folgeverwertung" solcher Fotografien kann bzw. könnte die bildende Künstlerin juristisch vorgehen. Mit der Veröffentlichung auf Wikipedia, der Frau Lan explizit zugestimmt hatte, liegt jedoch keine kommerzielle Folgeverwertung vor. Die Fotos hatte ich gemacht; insofern liegt die "Urheberschaft" der Fotos bei mir. Das habe ich Wikipedia gegenüber erklärt, weil ich das für regelkonform hielt. Aber natürlich reklamiere ich damit nicht die Urheberschaft für die Werke von Jiny Lan selbst. Das wäre auch letztlich absurd. Ich würde ja auch kein Foto eines Werks von Andy Warhol veröffentlichen, darunter schreiben "Campbell's von Andy Warhol" und dann das Copyright für das Originalwerk für mich beanspruchen. Es handelt sich hier um "Bildende Kunst". Besser als tausend Worte kann ein Bild zeigen, um was für eine Kunst es sich handelt und wie deren Qualität bestellt ist. Ein bildliches Zitat, wenn Sie so wollen. Mehr war nicht beabsichtigt. Sollte ich damit Regeln von Wikipedia verletzt haben, akzeptiere ich die Löschung selbstverständlich. Wenn auch mit einem gewissen Bedauern. Denn für die Nutzer bedeutet die Löschung einen Informationsverlust. Letztlich freue ich mich aber darüber, wenn der Artikel auf englisch erscheint, ob mit oder ohne Fotos. Denn Frau Lan ist eine wichtige zeitgenössische Künstlerin. Besten Dank für Ihre Bemühungen und Ihr Interesse und mit freundlichen Grüßen --Gauthier W. de Reymaker (talk) 14:21, 8 December 2020 (UTC) Answer in english:

ODDITY
User: Hoary Please excuse me for answering you in German first. First of all - thank you very much for studying the Jiny Lan article thoroughly! I understand from your commitment that you make every effort to ensure the reliability and correctness of Wikipedia articles. I share this concern. In this respect, I was also pleased with your compliment that " this article doesn't look bad ". In fact, I had a lot of time for research, references, etc. invested in total for the creation of the article, in order to meet the requirements of Wikipedia and my own for seriousness and verifiability. The curiosity you noticed above is quickly explained. Indeed, I list a wide range of interests on my user page. I connected it with the intention to introduce myself to the Wikipedia community on a more personal level. If that led to the misunderstanding that further Wikipedia articles would follow on the topics I mentioned, I regret it. I didn't mean to express that. If so far I have stayed with one post on Jiny Lan, it is mainly due to the fact that I found the creation of the post to be very time-consuming and laborious. Apart from the fact that, as a "digital layman", I find dealing with the "technology" of Wikipedia stressful. As a newbie, it is difficult to find your way through all of Wikipedia's regulations. Thankful that my article had been published in the German wiki, I wanted to leave it behind for now. Maybe you can understand that?

COPYRIGHT
I am sorry my english is not very good. The phrase "'' worked with Ms Lan to create the page" "is misleading against this background. In fact, I had submitted the text to Ms. Lan before it was published in order to give her the opportunity to check the biographical information contained therein for accuracy. I got to know Ms. Lan personally at various exhibition openings. On these occasions I asked her permission to photograph her paintings and, if necessary, to use some of them for the Wikipedia article. She had given me this permission. Paintings are usually unique. According to "§ 2 (of the German) Copyright Act", copyright comes into effect automatically with the creation of the painting. "Paintings, sculptures or collages are mainly sold in the original and have their value, precisely because they are usually unique" (source: https://www.urheberrecht.de/gemaelde/). Therefore, the legislature provides a special regulation for copyright for works of art - the so-called resale right ... "(Source: https://www.urheberrecht.de/kunstwerke/). Photographing paintings is allowed in many German and European museums a  'commercial'  "subsequent use" of such photographs can or could take legal action by the visual artist. However, the publication on Wikipedia, which Ms. Lan had explicitly agreed to, does not constitute subsequent commercial use. I had taken the photos, in this respect the "authorship" of the photos lies with me. I explained this to Wikipedia because I thought it complied with the rules. But of course I'm not claiming the authorship for the works of Jiny Lan herself. That would be absurd in the end. I wouldn't publish a photo of a work by Andy Warhol, write "Campbell's by Andy Warhol" underneath and then claim the copyright for the original work for me. It is about "fine arts". A picture can show better than a thousand words what kind of art it is and what its quality is. A figurative quote if you will. No more was intended. If I have violated the rules of Wikipedia, I naturally accept the deletion. Although with some regret. Because for the user, the deletion means a loss of information. Ultimately, however, I am happy when the article appears in English, with or without photos. Because Ms. Lan is an important contemporary artist. Thank you for your efforts and your interest and best regards --Gauthier W. de Reymaker (talk) 14:21, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:52, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Jiny Lan Artist.jpg