Talk:John G. Dooley

Notability and sources
@JNCampbell5 do you have access to newspaper archives? I mentioned a couple in the decline message. S0091 (talk) 14:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Sure, I added a NYT article in the latest draft I just submitted. Have you had a chance to look at the changes I made. I wanted to make the case for keeping the You Tube videos in the entry. Hearing John Dooley call those famous races, like the Pizza Man, would be good for readers to access. JNCampbell5 (talk) 14:51, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I also deleted the article that you had issue with that I wrote for Horseracing.net/us. JNCampbell5 (talk) 14:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Any YouTube links belong in an external links section NOT as sources. Theroadislong (talk) 14:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So, is there a way to include them just as links? Is that ok? JNCampbell5 (talk) 14:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 yes, in an External link section but that is the least of the concern. In order for an article about Dooley to be warranted, notability needs to established.  I removed the NYT source because it made no mention of Dooley so not useful. Please see my latest decline note.  When I ask about newspaper archives, I mean from various newspapers and you need articles that have written in-depth about him that are not press releases/routine announcements or interviews. See footnote #6 which I just added and is an announcement about the Thistledown position, which is fine for WP:V but not helpful for notability.  You also need to address WP:COI (left a note on your talk page, User talk:JNCampbell5).  S0091 (talk) 15:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm adding sources so the footnote numbers are changing. Please take a look at the sources I am adding.  The Forth Worth Star-Telegram written by Randy Moss which is a great little write-up about him and can be used to support much of his early life and career.  S0091 (talk) 16:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, yes, I know Randy Moss. Good deal. I will make a few more additions and beef up the sources. Then resubmit it. I still think this entry has merit. JNCampbell5 (talk) 18:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 I am going to pause now from editing the draft but do take look at my changes and sources. I have tried to leave edit summaries which you can view in history as to why I am doing what I am doing ("ce" means copy edit and link.wikilink mean I am adding a link to an existing article btw) and you are welcome to disagree with any changes I made and we can discuss.  Keep in mind though, writing for an encyclopedia is different than journalist style.  As I stated before, Wikipedia simply summarizes what other reliable sources have written about a subject and is quite dry.  As far as my research, I stopped at the point of his move to Lone Star (outside of the sources I just plopped into the Notable calls section).  I think the article has a good shot at meeting notability but I am not going write it.  You need to do that.  If you do not have access to any of the sources let me know.  I tried a much as could to rely on Newspaper.com because my clippings should be accessible. S0091 (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We edit conflicted as I was publishing my note at the same time as you. S0091 (talk) 18:12, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, I will try to find some more creditable sources. I have experience with academic encyclopedia entries. So the process and style is not foreign to me. I will resubmit this once I get those added. I appreciate the help. JNCampbell5 (talk) 18:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 Perfect! If you have any source gaps, meaning you know newspapers, etc. covered something but you can't find them let me know and I will see if I can dig them up. You can ping me here or leave a note on my talk page (click the "talk" link by my signature).  Happy to help the article along.  S0091 (talk) 18:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 Oh and you do still need to address WP:COI, if any. If you don't have a COI just state so on your talk page in response my query about it.  If you do, simply make the declaration which does not involve stating how you have COI only that you do. S0091 (talk) 18:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, where do I post that I do not have a COI with John Dooley? I have covered Thoroughbred racing for 5+ years and interviewed him. But I am in no way connected to any of the tracks that he works for. I am not receiving any compensation for publishing this entry from anyone. JNCampbell5 (talk) 19:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I am out of the article and have made my changes. Let me know what you think when you have a chance. JNCampbell5 (talk) 19:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 I removed all the content where the sources failed verification (did not support the the content) and one that was a Q&A interview with no independent content outside of what he said about himself. As for the "He's dropping out it as quickly as Ross Perot" quote, I had cited several sources that quoted him but for some reason you chose to remove those and only go with the Detroit Free Press, which is great source but why only quote one source when many were offered? In addition, you have offered no sources for his career at Arlington Park or after.  You state you are familiar with encyclopedic writing and sourcing but no offense, I am not sure this is the case.  As far as the COI, your statements here are sufficient.  S0091 (talk) 20:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I removed those. it might have been by accident. Actually I did offer sources after Arlington Park. I have the one from the Paulick Report that reflects his hiring at Horseshoe Indianapolis. I have a direct quote from Eric Halstrom. Also, I have citations about his work at Fair Grounds in New Orleans. he called his last race at Arlington in Sept. 2021. You didn't need to take a personal shot at me concerning my background in ency writing. Ouch. 100.35.167.233 (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, let me ask you something. Have you read the Frank Mirahmadi entry on Wikipedia? Have a look at it, please. How is that entry on this site? I don't think it is nearly as well-sourced as mine. the details are pretty sparse. He has similar experience to Dooley. They could be called contemporaries. JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:00, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that you have edited the piece, what is the next step? It goes to review again? That isnt going to take 4 months is it? Appreciate the help. i am not trying to sound rude or impertinent. JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:OTHERSTUFF and note Frank Mirahmadi has a notability tag dated back in 2017, meaning the article may not meet the notability guidelines thus should be deleted (poof gone!). That is what I am trying to avoid here and what reviewers are tasked to determine.  As it stands now with the sourcing, Dooley does not meet the notability criteria.  S0091 (talk) 21:13, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So, what do I need to do to get this into form? I want to see this through. I will set aside my ego and scruples. JNCampbell5 (talk) 01:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you still out there?
 * Can I still add some text and sources to this piece? JNCampbell5 (talk) 13:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

You have submitted it again so it's pending review. As we are all volunteers, we pick up what we choose to review so there is no way to know how long it will take but you can continue to make improvements. I suggest reading my last decline comments and you want to use mainstream reputable sources. Also, claims need to be cited to a source that directly verifies the content and mostly those sources should be secondary. What Dooley says about himself, even if published by a secondary sources, is primary. I did restore some sources to support the Ross Perot quote and footnote 15 is a Washington Post piece that quotes him a couple time for another race. Granted, those are not helpful for establishing notability because they are not in-depth coverage about him but as an announcer it makes sense to cover it when reputable sources make note of his calls. Ideally you want more than one source to support its significance. S0091 (talk) 14:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok, I will keep looking for reputable sources. I appreciate your counsel and efforts. Especially since I am new to contributing to Wikipedia. My opinion of what editors do on the site and how they carry themselves has universally changed. Very impressive in the standards category. JNCampbell5 (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 please stop citing sources that make no mention of Dooley as they are useless. As far as Wikipedia, it is not the wild west it was back in early or even mid-2000's .  There are still plenty of articles that still exist that do not meet today's guidelines and guidelines still do change, generally becoming more strict (for better or worse).  I will tell you articles like Frank Mirahmadi bother me because they are poorly written and poorly sourced.  I am not writer (hate it) but at least I can add sources which I did today for the article about Mirahmadi.   S0091 (talk) 20:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok I understand. Thank you for the candor. If there is anything you see that I can do to improve this Dooley article, please let me know. I think it has value (not that my opine matters a hoot) and with your help, it is properly sourced. Thanks again. JNCampbell5 (talk) 20:41, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Do I need to find a source for that Chicago Bears purchase of Arlington Park from Churchill Downs? How about this one from the Chicago Tribune? Or maybe you can suggest something else?
 * https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bears/ct-arlington-heights-bears-stadium-land-sale-20230215-i7dsoghmpbbp5gjfqoacbvoa2m-story.html JNCampbell5 (talk) 20:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-arlington-park-up-for-sale-churchill-downs-20210223-ju2zrmncvzaxlltf4t23654q64-story.html
 * Here is another one from the Chicago Tribune. I noticed you added 'citation needed' to that line. JNCampbell5 (talk) 20:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * What you need is a source that supports He held that position until 2021 when he called the final race at the Chicago landmark on September 25, 2021 as the property was sold to the Chicago Bears by Churchill Downs Inc. If the source does not state that was his final call and the reason it was it his final is because of the purchase then it fails verifiability.  S0091 (talk) 20:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok I understand what you are saying. I found this one. Horse Racing Nation is blocked by Wikipedia when I put it in as a source with a quote by Dooley about his last call at Arlington. Is there a way we can use it by chance? Ok, I will keep looking for something. JNCampbell5 (talk) 20:57, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I cannot cut and paste it into this box. It gets blocked. JNCampbell5 (talk) 20:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok what about this one? It includes a quote from Dooley that he said via Twitter about a million memories. It mentions the deal with the Bears and Churchill.
 * https://www.essentiallysports.com/us-sports-news-olympics-news-equestrian-news-can-never-destroy-a-million-memories-after-sale-historic-racecourse-sheltering-many-equestrian-legends-finds-itself-in-debris/ JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * And here is my own paper that I work for ... TDN. It think this might work. What do you think?
 * https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/dooley-named-track-announcer-at-horseshoe-indianapolis/#:~:text=Dooley%20brought%20the%20curtain%20down,Derby%20in%20July%2C%20begins%20Apr. JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 no, there is nothing in there that supports the statement and it's based on Twitter which is a enormously poor source. S0091 (talk) 21:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, what about the one from TDN? I did not work there at the time. It is a reliable source in Thoroughbred news and is verifiable. JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:10, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Eric Halstrom is his boss at Horseshoe Indianapolis. JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @JNCampbell5 looking at this last source you put up (www.thoroughbreddailynews.com} where does it say his last call and the reason it was his last is because of change of ownership? And I also I have to say none of these details really matter. He worked some place, then moved on to somewhere else and none of this is going to help with establishing notability.. S0091 (talk) 21:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Dooley brought the curtain down on racing at Arlington this past September.
 * It is common knowledge that the track was sold to the Bears and that it is being demolished. JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:16, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington_Park
 * That coupled with Wikipedia's own entry about Arlington Park isn't sufficient? JNCampbell5 (talk) 21:18, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a reliable source (see WP:CIRC) . Read WPV and WP:OR for yourself because I am not going to repeat those essentials again.  What I will repeat is that whether the statement is sourced or not, it is not going to help with establishing notability which is the only route for an article about Dooley.  I implore you to concentrate on finding reputable sources that have written in-depth about Dooley that are not press releases/routine announcements and not largely interviews with him or his statements, which includes social media.  S0091 (talk) 21:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)