Talk:Joy Division/Archive 1

Joy Division Goths?
Sorry, what? Since when? They certainly were not "marketed" as Goths. Martin Hannett might have called their music "gothic" but he was hardly their management. In any case, he almost certainly would have meant that their music was gothic in the artistic sense, rather than the black hair, black lippy, pretend you're a vampire sense. This article has been seriously POV'd by a Goth or Goths. I ask you to substantiate these claims with something a little more substantial than some website quoting Martin Hannett. I was into JD from day one and there was no way on Earth they were "viewed" as Goth then. Now might be different but tell it how it was, not how you wish it was, eh?Dr Zen 12:00, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, Tony Wilson called them "gothic in comparison with pop music" and Barney described them as "20th century gothic". Perhaps you could take the hint from his feeling the need to mention the century that he has the artistic period in mind.Dr Zen 12:06, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree completely. I thought I had removed all the "gothic" references. Hn 03:54, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think that Grice's edit much more neatly satisfies both point of views while remaining at least plausibly factual. That whole "gothic" idea must have come from somewhere -- maybe it was Tony Wilson. I'm sure he wouldn't mind stealing taking the credit.Dr Zen 04:14, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The current treatment of the label goth in this article reads as an argument, rather than a factual treatise. I think a clear seperation is needed between "Goth" as a musical style and the culture as a whole when arguing whether X or Y were "goth" or not. -- Jon Dowland 17:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Joy Division's musical style (particularly the music from Unknown Pleasures) is basically the foundation for Gothic rock. That is commonly accepted to be fact. However, there has been much debate as to whether or not Joy Division should be considered a gothic rock band or merely the direct progenator of the style. Certainly they were contemporaries with the first gothic rock bands (Bauhaus, the Cure, the Banshees), but they also did not limit themselves to a gothic aesthetic per se. Also, the band broke up before gothic fashion and the scene around the Batcave (which had yet to open) cemented the gothic culture. They were considered part of the punk scene because they did not exist long enough to be included in the goth scene.

Oh, and you want to hear a left-field reference for Joy Division being goth? U2's Bono in the New Order Story video. Seriously. WesleyDodds 10:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

naw he just said they where the ORIGINATORS plus who gives a fuck about bono anyway live at the witch trials 20:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they were considered to be punk. They were, like many others, inspired by the Sex Pistols, but their music was postpunk. The Goth thing is more to do with what Goths listened to than whether they themselves pursued that particular aesthetic. James James 10:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Back when they were Warsaw they were a punk rock band (just listen to the song "Warsaw" itself), and considered themselves a punk rock band for a long time although they had developed into what we call post-punk; many bands influenced by punk still consider themselves punk even if the style of music they play no longer contains the musical aesthetics of the genre. And I don't see how goth music is reflected by what bands listen to. That is not how music genres are defined; rather by their musical aesthetics, influences, or region.

But after all, many of them listened to Joy Division. WesleyDodds 11:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

You cannot seperate Joy Division from Goth Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.152.149 (talk • contribs)


 * You most certainly can. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proeliator Sancti (talk • contribs)


 * They were influential to Goth rock, but were not themselves goth rock. They were dark and had introspective lyrics and all that, but their sound wasn't strictly gothic. Their image was also not consistent with the gothic image. Folkor 16:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

warszawa / warsaw
I thought the warszawa (bowie) - warsaw connection was bona fide. Was this removed for factual reasons or reasons of writing style and flow?

Structure
I'm not sure why Grice has a problem with giving this article a proper structure. Without this structure the article looks incoherent, messy and amatuerish. The actual information content hasn't been changed, just sorted under logical headings, I don't see why this is problematic. quercus robur 21:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the current structure, and the above poster. --Hn 22:23, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems clear that you (Quercus) and Grice have very different ideas about what a "proper" structure is. Given the brevity of the section being fought over, it seems to me that the point is rather moot.  However, Grice has a point in that setting up additional headings just so "they can be fleshed out" is not a good idea.  If you're wanting to flesh them out, go ahead, but it's silly to set it up as merely an incomplete article.  Users are already reading the article, it should look as complete as it can.  I do, however, think that the article is fine with the seperate heading in this case; there actually is something to go under it.siafu 22:33, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Grice. An entire section for what can be summarized in one sentence is unwarranted in an encyclopedia entry.  It should be a brief footnote at the end of the article, possibly tied in with an equally brief mention of a few of the other Nazi controversy details.  (At least the author of the "Goth" section had the sense to put it at the end.)  To lead off an article about Joy Division with such a minor point trivializes how important this band was.  We certainly wouldn't recognize that from New Order's latest wreck of an album, would we?  Edwardian 00:52, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rob Gretton
If this name means nothing to you, you might as well go back to watching The Crow or your vampire videos. If it does, any help filling in relevant details would be appreciated. Edwardian 08:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for starting an article on Gretton, I'd been meaning to do it for quite a while. Cnwb 11:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Equipment
I've added two new sections on the article, equipment and stage behaviour

=
I've altered 'Tabernacle' to 'Talbot Tabernacle'. I, along wuth Jack Balchin, put on this show as part of our ongoing fortnightly 'Dub Club' series at the venue. I've no recollection of a melodica being smashed though. joly Wwwhatsup 08:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

rob smith quote
...Robert Smith, who says that Curtis' suicide prevented his own. Could someone please substantiate this with a reference? Cheers -- Jon Dowland 17:24, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * no response in the last few weeks so I've removed it (this edit). -- Jon Dowland 15:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Let the Movie Begin
How can a non-official release not be a bootleg? If neither the band's label or the band themselves authorized the release, that sounds quite a bit like a bootleg to me (not that I have anything against bootlegs). Folkor 09:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Looking at Bootleg, it appears to be exactly that. -- Jon Dowland 15:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

1982 bootleg / 1992 official release
The 1978 section says The album would be released as a bootleg in 1982 and then officially 10 years later. It doesn't say what album. The discography below has no entry for a bootleg in 1982 or albums for 1992. Could someone please add the name to the 1978 section and the two entries to the discography? -- Jon Dowland 15:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * To me, that sounds like the "Warsaw" bootleg, featuring the RCA Arrow Studio sessions. Three of those tracks ("The Drawback", "Interzone", and "Shadowplay") were officially released on the Heart and Soul box set in 1998, but I really don't think there's ever been an official release of the rest of the material. One of my best friends found the bootleg on vinyl in Germany, and it also included some other random stuff like one of the bands' Peel sessions, but if there had been an official release I'd own it. I'd be really surprised if such a release exists (assuming that I am talking about the right bootleg). Folkor 19:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I actually own a copy of the Warsaw CD. My copy was released on "Movie Play Gold" records. Check this out. It's the first album that was scrapped, plus some very early stuff. It's at least quasi-official, I think. James James 06:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep, that looks very similar to the vinyl copy a friend of mine has. It has the same core 11 tracks, plus the first Peel session, and some other random stuff. I'm still pretty confident that's hardly official. If it's not on Factory, you can't really call it as such. Such is my opinion, at least. Folkor 08:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Erm. You do know they sold their back catalogue? This CD claims to be licensed and the record label seems legit, even if not exactly mainstream.James James 11:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, if there's enough consensus that it's more legit than not, I'm fine with that. I just had previously thought it wasn't, but perhaps it is. Folkor 23:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I really don't know. I had a scout at the site that had the picture, and they don't think it's official at all.. Does anyone speak Portuguese? James James 00:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've got the Movie Play Gold version. I got it from Amazon and I've seen it in at least one of Virgin and HMV, all of which would suggest it's legit. On the other hand it contains "As You Said", the copyright of which I would have thought lay elsewhere. It's an Italian release, of course, and Italian copyright law was for years laxer than that of most other western counties, but I thought the EU had harmonised copyright law a while ago. My guess would be that nobody has got a sufficient enough claim to the Warsaw demos and the RCA material to challenge MPG, and nobody cares enough about a scrap like "As You Said", which by itself isn't exactly going to make anybody a millionaire. BTLizard 09:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The guy - Des - aka Red Records - who put out the Warsaw bootleg in 1982 (?) lived directly across the street from Better Badges on Portobello Rd. We ratted him out to Factory and a negotiation was done that gave a good potion of the proceeds to Ian Curtis' family AFAIK.joly (ex-BB) 08:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

New Wave
Can I say I agree that Joy Division should not be included in the New Wave category? Goth, yes, because Goths themselves claim they are one of the first Goth bands, but New Wave, no way. I just don't think the cap fits there. However, can I suggest that if a reputable source can be found that says that JD were a New Wave band, I will bow to that, and I hope other editors who think they are not New Wave will too. James James 06:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Depending on one's definition of new wave, it's perfectly plausible. New wave is a pretty slippery term, so who's to say.  But I guess if you just want to think of it as another word for synthpop, then they don't fit.  Deleuze 19:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Trivia: Cassettes
''When the band had recorded Closer, Curtis was given a copy of the album on cassette. Cassette was a very new medium in 1980, so new, in fact, that he didn't have a cassette player to play it on.'' I can't believe this. I'm from the UK, and my family had a cassette player in 1972. I owned one in 1978 (I remember taking it to primary school with me, so I would have been at most 11 years old). I expect that most cars were sold with cassette players by 1980 as well. Perhaps Curtis didn't have a cassette player, but not because they were new tech.


 * Cassettes were first mass produced from Germany in 1965, so I would agree in your assessment. Folkor 03:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't believe that someone could doubt about cassettes: I can confirm that they were very common in Europe along the 1970s. Though I'm not from UK, at home there was a cassette deck in 1974.--Dr. Who 23:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

They released three albums, right?
Unknown Pleasures, Still, and Closer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proeliator Sancti (talk • contribs)
 * No, two: Unknown Pleasures and Closer. SaltyWater 23:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * what about still? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proeliator Sancti (talk • contribs)
 * That's a compilation mate. SaltyWater 23:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hardly, it had eleven original tracks. side note - that's 55% of the tracks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proeliator Sancti (talk • contribs)
 * It's a compilation of unreleased material. SaltyWater 23:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "It's a compilation of unreleased material." That's a nice definition of the word album, thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proeliator Sancti (talk • contribs)
 * Yes, a compilation album. The album was released after the band broke up and featured material that the band had not entirely finished. The songs were outtakes. Substance is in the same vein - it compiled a bunch of singles and rarities. Still featured rare live versions and outtakes. The band did not release the album themselves. It's a compilation, not album proper. Folkor 16:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well that sounds like nitpicking to me. Saying they released only two albums gives the impression that they made less music than they did.  How do I sign a comment?
 * Nitpicking? Its simply common practice to only count proper studio albums- here at Wikipedia and in music media in general. For example, The Smiths only released 4 albums officially, although they had enough material to make up at least another 2. You sign comments by typing ~ . SaltyWater 21:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Why must you only count "proper studio albums"? and if that is so necessary, why not say in the article that they did more than just those two albums? (the article may already say that, it's been a couple of weeks since I last read it) Proeliator Sancti 23:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to say. Sorry. Perhaps someone else is able to explain. But the fact that listed Still as an "album" but npt Substance (which - I'd say - is more album-like than the former) perhaps suggests you don't know what you're talking about, so... SaltyWater 23:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Sally. Unknown Pleasures and Closer are the only two studio albums they released, anything else is a compilation (which isn't a normative claim, just a technical one).  Mentioning that several albums of unreleased material exist is perfectly fine and ought to be included.  Deleuze 23:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but I don't know many bands which don't have loads of unreleased and/or non-album material... I'm not sure what makes JD special because they have. SaltyWater 23:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * All I'm saying is that saying they only released two albums gives the wrong impression and you need to put something like "not counting a good deal of unreleased material" Proeliator Sancti is unable to log in

I've tried to clarify this by editing it to read 'two studio albums'. Robdurbar 15:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I noticed that, thank you, I just wanted to clarify my POV, as to not get flamed. Proeliator Sancti 22:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Rudolph Hess Statement
Does anyone else believe that Bernard Sumner actually said "You all forgot Rudolph Hess!" before Warsaw played "At a later date" at the Electric Circus? The recorded track making its way on to the Live at the Electric Circus LP. I have this LP and can be fairly certain that it is Bernard, not Ian, as the article states.


 * Absolutely agree; it's Barney. I'll make the change. BTLizard 08:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been changed back to Curtis by someone so I corrected it. SAFCjl 17:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The source is cited, so doesn't need a further citation, so I've removed the request. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul haynes (talk • contribs).
 * Saying its on 'a later live album' isn't a citation because obviously it can't be checked without knowing which album. These comments get deleted because there is no external reference. However if we're agreed its on electric circus i'll add the album.Operating 13:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Touching From a Distance claims it's Ian Curtis. WesleyDodds 02:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm listening to the song right now. It's Barney. Operating 12:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Artist credit clarification
The ending solo from "New Dawn Fades" was featured in the 1995 film Heat as Al Pacino chases down Robert DeNiro.

should be changed to:

The ending solo from "New Dawn Fades", as performed by Moby, was featured in the 1995 film Heat as Al Pacino chases down Robert DeNiro.

Thoughts?

Agree. Done. Wilhelm Screamer 06:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Drug Abuse
No-one seems to have mentioned Ian Curtis's drug (ab)use. surely this is one of the reasons Joy Division were such a cult band. his appearance on "Something Else" says it all really. check YouTube "Live Transmission and She's Lost Control Again" if in any doubt. a friend of mine who had all those bootlegs was beaten to death by his dad with a cricket bat....that is how i remember Joy Division. oh, by the way, i have the condition epilepsy. so all the bullshit about De Niro and this and that misses the point. Mr.Curtis was ill and the way out of this for him was to take narcotics. for people about at that time, this is one of the reasons why he became a legend. not because of some bootleg. For Dave.

Atrocity Exhibition
I don't understand why the following text was removed: It looks perfectly OK to me. BTLizard 08:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The song "Atrocity Exhibition", from the album Closer, shares its title with the novel The Atrocity Exhibition by J.G. Ballard.


 * It's been a while now and nobody's responded so I've reinserted it. BTLizard 11:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Name
Does anyone know where there name cames from?--Tresckow 21:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Have a look at http://www.iancurtis.org/faq/102.html
 * Thanx Theriac 20:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The name is a quote of the female shacks in the ss concentration camps for jews!!!!


 * No way. Really?  Amazing. siafu 16:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Origin
As two of them came from, and lived, in Macclesfield is it right that "Origin" should be tagged just as Salford? ThanxTheriac 19:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Pansy Division
Is it worth mentioning Pansy Division in the article, which is also a band based on a German military term? The name Pansy Division is a pun combining "Panzer Division" with the slang term "pansy", meaning an effeminate or homosexual male.. samwaltz 13:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Who is that poet at the beginning of the transmission video?
In the "transmission" music video, there is some dude reading a poem that goes "The Bloody train is bloody late; you bloody wait you bloody wait; The bloody view is bloody vile . . ." Who is that guy and what poem is that and how is it assoicated with Joy division? Watercat77 22:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's 'Evidently Chickentown' the Mancunian poet John Cooper Clarke. He was very respected in the post punk community. Go here for the full poem - http://mivox.multiply.com/music/item/9 SAFCjl 17:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Joydivisionstill.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Joy Division-Substance (album cover).jpg
Image:Joy Division-Substance (album cover).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use criteria
The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. — M o e   ε  20:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Influences
I don't see much mention of the very big influence THE DOORS had on Ian Curtis/Joy Division. It's true that they made something different of what they had (by accident more than anything I believe!), but you can clearly hear The Doors in there. And in Ian's voice. DaveEx 22:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou
Can I just thank who ever bothered to edit this article. Much better than before. Thanks. Labamba23 07:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Quote
"Sandwiched in between these two important landmarks was the realization that Ian's illness was something we would have to learn to accomodate." Accommodate is misspelled, but without access to the quote source, I can't tell if it's [sic] or actual typo. Michael Devore 05:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a typo I made. I fixed it. WesleyDodds 07:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)