Talk:Juggalo/Archive 1

IMPORTANT NOTICE, READ FIRST
Alright guys, this article is probably the worst written one I have ever seen and I've decided to fix it up for everyone. It's taken a while to re-write the entire article with almost no background or experience with Juggalos (I even hate ICP), so please try to stick to the format given. Also, don't revert the article, as the article in its past states could be up for the chopping block. Every other subculture has a well-written article and this is no different.

Also, when you go to edit new things into this article, keep in mind that this is a non-biased informational resource and is not a place to promote Juggalism. Articles containing bias and points of view are either edited or deleted. Thanks for your patience, guys. --Matharvest 20:52, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * fdsagj,nlclkczlzlxlckcllclclcklzkclckclcklcllklclklbmmm 154.182.11.123 (talk) 14:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Not neutral!
Why is the fact that most people consider juggalos to be a. under the age of 17, b. Either extremely fat or skinny (crack), c. White trash/whiggers, d. Dumb

included? It's pretty much what 98% of people believe, therefore it should be included.

POV slanting
Wether or not you personally think so, lots of juggalos do in fact say nigger, even when everyone in the room is white. Ninja is absolutely a replacement for such. However, to give a neutral POV, to say it's an argued point should be agreeable.

I'd like to see reason why juggalos don't think Ninja = nigger. It's only used in the exact same context that nigger is used. Claiming it's solely used because VJ likes them is as weak as the whole Dart Tent theory.

Also added "mothafacko". Why that wasn't included when it is the juggalo swear of choice is beyond me--pahsons 20:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)--pahsons 15:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) Why on Earth did you hide your coment up here, instead of placing it at the bottom of the page?
 * 2) Don't change the long-standing heading, especially when it appears designed simply to offend.
 * 3) I've removed the weasel-worded addition that you made to the article; "Some argue" &mdash; who argues this?
 * 4) To be honest, the whole puerile section of "terminology" needs to go; it' made up largely of minor variations on more general slang, and is about as unencyclop&aelig;dic as anything I've seen added to Wikipedia. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 16:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) I've kept most of my comments together. Sorry.  This page is a mess.
 * 2) I have no idea what you are talking about
 * 3) In several of the anti-juggalo forums I run, where juggalos come in and attempt to run rampart, ninja/nigger is usually brought it. Most people who don't like juggalos can see ninja for what it is.  You can see it in it's context constantly.  Add the fact that Juggalos follow the worst 90s black gangster rapper caricature and it becomes clear.  Whenever it's brought up to juggalos, it goes into complete denial and usually degrades to insults.
 * 4) Some of the words in the terminology, like sheep or piggy, yes, all too common words. However, words like neden or mothafacko are not heard anywhere and when it is seen, most people are confused to what they are.

But now the article says too little. The juggalo code should be left in, as well as the conflicts. Both are huge parts of the culture that are not apparent until one gets in the middle of it. I agree that both should be cleaned up. If I could have done so with a true NPOV and have it look like a true article, I would have.--pahsons 18:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The stuff about "ninja" is speculation and personal research; it's also deeply uninteresting to anyone except a fan or anti-fan. As for the other words "most people" have benver heard them, and wouldn't lose any sleep over not understanding them (even when they're not simply mis-/other-spellings of common words).  There is in any case an external link to a "dictionary" (pshaw!) of terms.
 * That you run anti-Jugggalo forums says a great deal about your position: you think that this stuff is important, and you're against it. Neither view is held by most people, and neither view should dictate what is said in the article.
 * The Juggalo Code section was inflated and largely empty of content, as well as being entirely unsourced and uncited; the conflicts (aside from the one that I left) were also couched in weasel-worded, general, and uncited terms. The article now gives the subject the space it deserves, and includes only what's enyclop&aelig;dic.  If any reader is interested in finding more, they can always follow the external links. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 21:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't give justice to just how far gone people who are juggalos truly are. It is a true religion to almost all of them, with two distinctive sides, one following Christianity (juggalofaith.com) and the rest following the dark circus. It should be pointed out how cult like it really is. The huge gathering they hold once a year is considered a family reunion to them. They feel as though they are part of ICP at these shows, unlike how people who follow Rocky Horror and act out everything. There is also beliefs that they will take over the world, and is repeated over and over again, even in the two links provided, which are very pro-juggalo.

I believe you want to be as descriptive as possible, correct? --pahsons 17:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never heard anything so misinformed. For one, the dark carnival is metaphorical for god.  Second I've seen numerous Juggalos with various beliefs.  One being atheist and it's difficult to belong to this supposesed cult you claim when you believe in no god(s).  I think you should check your facts before you start claiming these pseudo-facts in an obvious attemt at disinformation. ShinobiLo 19:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Article Restored
Someone thought it'd be cute to erase the article... restored.

--User:Steven Pound 01:53, 2 September 2005 (CST)

Best with what I have
Any ideoligy article on wikipedia is going to have a point of view problem. The article that was here before I started editing was pretty negative. I've tried to relay the basic information about the juggalo movement to the uninitiated the best I can and I admit it's a work in progress. But as long as I've been a part of this movement, I've never seen one negative impact of juggalo society upon it's own members or those on the outside looking in.

More than likely, your "POV" was either impressed upon by another's opinions or you have had a runin with an idiot who claims juggalo. I've seen some pretty bad things done and said by 12 year old christians, but I don't judge the whole religion by what a few kids do. And I sure don't run up on the Christian article discussion and complain about "POV issues". In short, try to open your mind a little, who knows, you may let something in...

Steven 'Resident Juggalo' Pound

Material edited from Horrorcore
The following section used to be in the article for horrorcore. Since there is an article on Juggalo already, I removed that material and placed a simple "see also" link. Since the article here seems to provide useful information already, I figured it'd be better to make the material removed from the other page available here in case anybody wants to use it.

"There is a rising sub-culture from the horrorcore genre, especially among Insane Clown Posse fans, known as 'Juggalo' (females known as 'Jugalettes'). Its members take after the image of many of their favorite bands that fit the dark hip hop music genre known as horrorcore, implementing evil clown make-up and black street clothing. Adoption of many Goth, Death Punk and Black Metal clothing and style is common, and the lifestyle of street gangster is taken on in a whole new way. Some individuals come up with their own sinister nicknames (sometimes their peers do this alternatively) after the likes of names such as 'Violent J', or some simply go by 'Juggalo/Juggalette [insert name here]'. Technically this term means someone who is free from routine, expectations, although still promoting benevolence and and family-feeling among Juggaloes. Also perhaps believers in The Dark Carnival new-age mythology." --Dachannien 17:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup
The big cleanup is underway, soon everything will be much prettier. I organized the sections a little better and will soon be updating info, adding info, and deleting unhelpful information. --User:Steven Pound 16:33, 15 July 2005 (CST)

Bad fans...
I hope I'm not offending anyone here, but in the interests of NPOV, shouldn't the rabidness of some ICP fans be mentioned? When Something Awful did their "Truth Media" article on ICP, then showed off the resulting flame mail from Juggalos, well, some of them have to be seen to be believed. Granted that the people who made these flames would probably be considered 'Sheep' or 'Hound Dogs' (as per the terminology in this article). SA is currently down due to Hurricane Katrina, so here is a Wayback Machine link to the flame mail and one to an ICQ transcript--DooM Drat 11:38, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * I won't deny the fact there are some people who like to use the term "Juggalo" unsparingly. These are what we call "Juffalos". Only the true ninjas like me use it in the right situations since I'm not so quick to use it.--Kingdoms united 2004 01:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Do these "Juffalos" also put sugar on their oatmeal?

Clean-up
I didn't leave a comment with my latest revision because (1) I didn't think I'd have enough room and (2) I forgot.

Regardless, I have to disagree with the one person's suggestion that the article "needs work, seriously." Granted, I am by no means a professional essayist, but the article is far from unprofessional. I've seen extremely poorly written articles allowed continued existance.

What, precisely, "needs work." I believe a bit of elaboration is an order. How can if correct a discrepency that I have no knowledge of? This critic leaves this author with a negative critique of his work, yet no explanation of what's so wrong with it.

So, if you read this, please feel free to comment. Thank you.


 * For starters, it should be possible to discern what the article is about by reading the first paragraph. --fvw *  23:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Issues reside in the article. No attack on Juggalos. But it seems like the article makes generalizations itself. Also, simple statements given as true, with little or no factual foundation.

This article certainly needs work.

The0208 01:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I added some "facts" of anti-juggalo behaviour to prove that the creator of this article is not making an unbalanced POV. It was mentioned in the article that not all per se, good juggalos, but if as many juggalos know, anyone with such bad conduct, especially towards other juggalos, is not considered a juggalo, but a juffalo or juggaho.  There is in fact a unwritten code of conduct all juggalos fallow.  Such as loyalty, honesty and other common moral standards.


 * Now about adding some articles of bad juggalo behaviours isn't as easy to find as when you type "juggalo" in google or whatever, you usually get alot of the many synonymous juggalo made sites.


 * So as this being a poorly unbalanced POV article is kinda incorrect I'd say. As the creator said, I see no problem with the article.  Maybe it's a little juggalo'esk, but the only people who really know what juggalos really are like, is a juggalo or soemone very close with one or more.  Reguardless though, it's a decently NPOV reguarding what the topic is about, to be hoenst I expected to see a bunch of sladerous matirial in this article.  Hell, it was obviously deleted in the past because of the very first topic in this article discussion.


 * And I think Steven Pound made a good point [here]. So as far as a juggalo article could be with a NPOV, this is as best as it's gunna get.  It's not like a basic science areticle where everything is well defind, it's a social order and those are difficult to define as it's about a vast and diverse.


 * --MJoe 09:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

ICP Merge?
I would like to ask, why was the Juggalo article merged into the Insane Clown Posse article? Both articles are completely different subjects. I'd like an explination from the person User:Gmaxwell to at least give an explination as to why he thought he needed to merge them. Plus... Juggalo applys more to then just the Insane Clown Posse, like Blaze Ya Dead Homie, Anybody Killa, Twiztid, Jumpsteady and many other artists that arent even on the Psychopathic label.

Personally I think the article should be restored to it's original status.

--MJoe 10:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, with a lack of any explination as to why the original article was merged, I went ahead and redid the article. I added more negitive points to explain bad things done in the name of Juggalos, but I made a point in all of it to remind people the Juggalo community doesn't support the slanderous behaviour expressed by certain people who named themselves Juggalos.  So this article tells you what Juggalos for the most part, should be, as far as how they act.  What a Juggalo wears, talks and all is all indefinable and hell... Would go against the Juggalo philosophies.


 * --MJoe 06:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Tagged Again, But Again Without Explanation
Why is it people always seem to love to slap on tags, but NEVER take the time to point out to anyone what specifically is the problem the tagger sees? This is really getting on my nerves. Make me just want to delete the tags until I get a proper explanation, instead of these half assed correct tags.

So someone help a Ninja out, because I don't see the problem here? It's only me a few others actually editing this article and we can only do so much.

--MJoe 20:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Well... I fixed what I could. Next time someone sees an issue with this article, do what Wikipedia wants you to do be bold and do it yourself, especially if ti's something you know you can fix. As far as information goes, you'll have to leave that up to people wo are Juggalos or who know one well personally.

So don't put any tags on unless you can't fix it yoruself. *rolls eyes in annoyance* --MJoe 21:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I went to wikipedia to try to learn about jugggalos, but was unsucessful, because this article is confusing and uninformative. Although there are other flaws, those are the most important, for when an article is uninformative it is useless.  This article should be rewritten with the assumption that the prospective reader knows nothing about juggalos.  An excellent example of a wikipedia article that straightforwardly explains a weird subculture is the one for Furry fandom.  I suggest you read it and use it as a model. Rast 02:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input. It really is appreciated.  I think a few of us are just frustrated at what seems to be a (typica) anti-Juggalo sentiment, what, with people deleting the Juggalo article or merging it with the ICP article (where it doesn't belong), etc. etc.  Me and MJoe will work out the kinks.  Thanks again for the input, and I hope you'll come back to see a new and improved article.


 * Thank you Rast for your input and letting us know what you felt was wrong with the article. Seems all too often that people are willing to slap on a tag or make a major change (Like merging the article with the ICP article.) without giving any reason for what they had done or what was wrong.  In the last article, there was alot of complaints about NPOV and I had rewritten the article to attempt to at least deminish this feeling of a biased POV.  Which explains my emphisis on what Juggalos are supposed to be, not what a few individuals make it apper, because Juggalos get alot of heat from ignorant people who pre-judged and made false claims about Juggalos.  I can think of more then one time when this page was immaturly vanilized because of these negitive biases.  As all articles, it will come with more infromation and will become more informitive.  I can bet ya that Furry article took time as well to get it right. - MJoe

Juggalo Terms & other suggestions
The Juggalo Terms section seems to be lacking in general. It should definately be expanded or possibly removed and just point people to the resource with a more complete list.

Origins should include reference to first usage of the term in a song perhaps.

I am truly ashamed with no mention of the Gathering of the Juggalos on a page devoted to juggalos and juggalo culture.



I am also surprised there is no mentioning of the Gathering here. Especially considering that's one of the first things you hear about in a conversation with Juggalos. Also, Hallowicked really should be brought up. SLS 10/28/05

"Juggalo Pride has led to the idea that there is a strong gang mentality in the Juggalo community, to the point where Juggalos are considered actual gang members. As a result, several splinter groups have followed the gangster approach and have appeared in newspaper editorials which explain the social detriment Juggalism has on its followers. Juggalos universally dismiss these individuals on the grounds that they are missing the point completely" What does "appeared in newspaper editorials mean"? Did gangster juggalos write an editorial?--24.94.190.136 19:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

"caught in an updraft of popularity caused by issues"....
"After the release of their fourth album The Great Milenko, ICP found themselves caught in an updraft of popularity caused by issues with their record label Hollywood Records, which is owned by Disney."

Could somebody elaborate, please? TheMadBaron 22:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Elaboration
I'm a new user on this site and have just edited this page. I did not change any information in the article, just elaborated on the Hollywood Records/Disney issue. I was also looking to edit the first paragraph to make it a little less confusing and more professional in appearance, but I'm still trying to word it without sounding biast. As soon as I get it right I will post it. If you don't like it feel free to change it back.

k


 * I think they're good edits. (I'm still not sure about that "updraft of popularity, though....) Two things - 1) could you explain "Behind the Paint" for those of us who don't know what it is (a documentary?), and 2), please sign your comments on these talk pages. Welcome aboard. TheMadBaron 22:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Origins Update
I've updated the Origins section to further explain ICP's surge of popularity and also the part about Behind the Paint for any more info. on Insane Clown Posse's Origins, follow one of their links, as they have their own arcticle.Juggalicious 00:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've also added further content on the origins of the term Juggalo. A Juggalo by definition doesn't just start off by listening to ICP, although this is usually what's known as "their first step in the tent".--Kingdoms united 2004 01:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ghetto Goths
I'm thinking about moving this topic in the main article to the Juggalo Terminology bit, in case anyone objects. I understand it isn't used by Juggalos in any way but I'm looking for a second opinion in any case.--Kingdoms united 2004 14:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Clean-up
The article is getting worse. The English is degrading with almost every edit, and the number of unsourced and unreferenced claims is reaching critical mass. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 21:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems Kingdoms united 2004 is intent on deleting everyone else's contributions and claiming the page for himself. Which wouldn't be a huge problem except for the fact that his writing abilities are extremely limited, and that he shows a huge bias towards showing "Juggalos" only in a positive light, as it is very obvious that he considers himself to be one (note how he refuses to acknowledge Jacob D. Robida as a Juggalo despite the overwhelming evidence, all on his own personal judgment that Robida had a "lack of understanding" of being a Juggalo).  Also the fact that he is not following protocol at all, and is blatantly flaunting the basic rules of an encyclopedia by using terms only fellow "Juggalos" would understand, such as describing a CD release as a "Joker's Card" rather than as an "album", or listing out names and terms without properly identifying or introducing them, such as "Insane Clown Posse", "Dark Carnival Cult",  "Violent J", or "the Juggla". Very simply, they could be easily introduced as "a rap group from Detroit", "part of the group's mythology", "a member of the group", and "a character from the song....".  All this in the first paragraph!
 * If Kingdoms united 2004 continues to ignore the protocols of Wikipedia and the spirit of co-operation, actions that could very well be described as vandalism, then I suggest that he be banned from Wikipedia all together. 218.102.69.151 03:25, 7 February 2006

I'm not vandalizing anything, I'm meerly correcting the accusations against the Juggalo community. Perhaps you yourself need take your own advice. --Kingdoms united 2004 22:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Jacob D Robida - Removed
I hate to break the news but this person is not a Juggalo. A lot of stuff on this page is incorrect anyway, I'll take care of editing and citing sources. If you don't like it then don't mess with what you can't comprehend.--Kingdoms united 2004 00:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Robida was a huge ICP fan. Check out his myspace page. Hell, the bastard used a goddamn hatchet. Just because you don't agree with his actions doesn't mean he doesn't share your subculture.

So you have definate proof that he was a Juggalo because he used a hatchet to kill people and listen to ICP according to his myspace account? Jacob Robida is a person, not a description, and therefore does not belong in the first paragraph of the article but later on in the conflicts section. I've also reverted your changes after mine because they did not conform with the Manual of Style.--Kingdoms united 2004 16:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Those weren't my edits, genius. Pope Guilty
 * --Who asked you?--Kingdoms united 2004 22:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Considering that that's me you're responding to up above (I forget and didn't sign the first one), I did. Pope Guilty 04:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * An article by Alex Abbiss (owner of Psychopathic Records) on ICP's website officially explains what a Juggalo is, if you have any doubts then read the following:

"Let me now explain to you what a Juggalo really is. Juggalos are just like any other kind of people. They share a common bond, through their music and culture. They like to gather together all the time and hang out with one another. They do this among themselves, and they also come out in hordes for our annual Gathering of the Juggalos. They rarely fight or have problems with one another. They stay down with each other and consider one another to be family. Even though many of them have started off with very little, or nothing at all, they do the best they can to live their lives each and every single day and in general, they are very good people, not to be looked down upon but to be respected by the rest of society. And even though many of them struggle through their days and have it rough, they always know that they have their Juggalo family to fall back on. And we here at Psychopathic wish them all the very best, not just to see them survive--as far as we're concerned, that's not good enough for them--but to see all of them thrive and be prosperous. That's what we hope for every one of them."--Kingdoms united 2004 15:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Robida should be included. His actions and his way of expressing himself (Via his myspace account) fall inline with the very views that are taught by ICP. He went after homosexuals, which there is a strong hate for in the juggalo view. He used a hatchet. And he thought he was invincible, which is absolutely common with every juggalo. Who are you trying to fool by denying that he was a juggalo? pahsons 00:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC) Any comments made by ICP to claim Robida is not a juggalo is to avoid scandal. Would you want to admit that you've told people to kill anyone who opposes you with a hatchet?
 * EXCUSE ME? May I suggest your generalizations in check?  Not sure if, at this point, you'll be reading this, but for the record, these "teachings" don't "fall in line" with anything ICP says.  Your lack of information on the subject matter completely null and voids your shallow argument.  A Juggalo is one thing, Robida is another.  The ONLY way Robida is connected to being a Juggalo is the fact that he CLAIMED he was a Juggalo, and this obviously causes the kind of hype and negative attention we can see unfolding here and now on this page. - Brad


 * Not only do that fall in line with ICP's teachings, you have obviously missed them. I know more abut ICP and juggalos than anyone should know.  Across all the websites and blogs and forums set up for juggalos is the one common theme, violence.  Violence at any cost, at anyone who disagrees with the juggalo.  The lust for hidden meanings in thier lyrics is laughable.  You'd get the same message if you played them backwards.  It's two idiots trying to make a religion who can't keep the facts straight and turn around and claim it's for God.  Where in any cotext of any religion with one singular "God", everything they do and continue to preach would be sacralidge.


 * Other juggalos accepted him. You would have accepting him on sight alone, with either facepaint or ICP clothing to tell of his alligence.  Juggalos are so desperate to get any friends on any level that they will accept anyone into thier fold, without knowing a thing about them.  It's said over and over again on many blogs and websites, "He's family, I instantly felt a bond, we share the same ideals" without knowing a thing about that person.--pahsons 15:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If you bothered to read the original article, you would realize that Robida is the compelete antithesis of what a Juggalo is and what Juggalos stand for. I would never have accepted a Robida - a fact I can back up as my real life friends know that I have shunned several supposed "Juggalos" who have a similar line of thinking as Robida.  Just because someone claims to be something does not mean they are, especially in a glaring circumstance such as this.  Sure, outsiders such as yourself like to judge and point fingers, but it is wholly inaccurate in every sence.  Is Robida worth a mention?  Again, I say yes, but not in the context of being a Juggalo, but in the context of being the antithesis of a Juggalo -- what a Juggalo is not.  Besides, after all, it wouldn't be good encyclopedic integrity to state what Juggalos stand for (i.e. open-mindedness, anti-bigotry, etc), and then in the same breath talk about how Robida "was a Juggalo who swung a hatchet around a gay bar."  At least not without mentioning that he's the type of "Juggalo" who gives real Juggalos a bad name.  Your predetermined "anti-Juggalo" position is hindering your ability to write an accurate and unbiased article (that is, one that will show both sides of the story). - Brad

Robida is incoherant to this article. The actions of one man does not reflect the views of an entire group of people and thus should not be in this article. If people want to know about or make an article about him, then they do it in an entire article of it's own. Just because one claims "Juggalo" does not mean they really are a Juggalo. Such as the KKK. They "claim" to be a christian orginazation, but would you honestly group them in with christians? Probably not. They may claim to preach the word of god, but just like Robida, they just don't get the point. I also like to mention your claim that "ICP says to kill anyone who opposes you with a hatchet" is obsured and just down right untrue. Not once have they said "Juggalos, go out and kill everyone who disagrees with you." Such a claim is down right fabricated out of a typical "ICP is satanic" or "All Juggalos are trouble makers." -MJoe Feb 27th, 2006

So, he was a juggalo and completely accepted until he made bad press for ICP? Nice way to put it. Even other juggalos who knew him commented on his myspace account and made claims of him going to shangri-la. There are many juggalo groups that claim world domination, extermination of southerners, free drugs for everyone. Are you going to deny thier juggalo status just because you oppose them? Are you going to deny 'Swing thy hatchet' as ICP has said it many times? Or the thousands of juggalos who have this on thier webpages, blogs, and what not? Sorry, they out number you--pahsons 10:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You're totally missing my point and never did I say he was a Juggalo until this. He was NEVER a Juggalo with him being a neo-nazi. Songs such as "Fuck Your Rebel Flag" from one of ICP's earlier albums clearly state you can not be a Juggalo if you're racist. Big aspects of being a Juggalo are pro-individualisum, anti-mindless-conformity and anti-bigotry (Not anti-southerners). Any "Juggalo" who can not grasp these importent concepts truely aren't Juggalos. If Robida listen to either of The Wraith albums, he would realize what he has done would get him a stright ticket to Hell's Pit. So for people saying Robida will "Go to Shangri-la" is their own inability to accept he was a racist and bad willed person. As for Juggalos claiming world domination, genocide of southerners and free drugs for all... I personally have not seen it. I personally know some southern Juggalos from below the bible belt and anti-drug Juggalos. So this claim of yours is a clear misinturpritation from a possible group of overly fanatical so called Juggalos. You must realize, as there was with the punk-sub-culture of the 80's, there were manb posers who totally missed the point and philosophies of the sub-culture. Another point I forgot to mention, bad press for ICP? That's ALL the kind of press ICP has ever gotten. Why do you think they call themselves "The world's most hated band?" -MJoe Feb 27th, 2006

This is great. The rebel flag does not solely represent racism, as ICP would have you believe. ICP would also have you think that all white supremists are anti-black. Some of these groups just are pro-white, as there are pro-black, pro-hispanic, etc. groups. Actually, the view that most juggalos have is similar to the Jewish view of being the chosen people and that they are better than everyone else. Your point means nothing.

Look. I am not going to hide the fact that I'm anti-juggalo. But I can at least describe it with a NPOV. This whole article is slanted towards a pro-juggalo POV and is lacking in anything that contradicts this rosy, sunshine filled world that juggalos believe they live in--pahsons 15:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying it is a sunshine filled world, but one person shouldn't be added to represent an entire group of people. That's why he doesn't belong in here. You can add that there are certain people who claim to be Juggalos like to throw salt into the mix of things. Sometimes even within their own community of Juggalos. These people are then often rejected by the rest, for straying from what we Juggalos as a group depicted what a Juggalo should represent. IE the anti-racism, pro-individuality. Being a nazi, Jacob Robida had totally violated the basics of what a Juggalo is, thus is why he's rejected by all other Juggalos minus those close to him, but as I stated earlier is only for the fact they can't come to terms that he was sick.

You must also understand that Juggalos tend to be defencive for often undiserved harassments and such by outsiders. Though other uneducated to the ways of Juggaloism "Juggalos" probably don't help our cause anymore then the troll like people who attack Juggalos physically and verbally. If you look at the history of both this article and the Insane Clown Posse article, they are vadilized periodically. Though I must thank you despite your biases, you have remained mature about the issue and havn't resorted to childish vandalism. I do hope to improve this article with you and other sensible minded people and keep it from being digrated by overly fenatic Juggalos and digrating opposers. -MJoe March 2nd, 2006.

http://dirtythug.com/index2.php http://www.foctamrecords.com/downloads/kcmurderlow.wmv

Those are just two of the people who you wouldn't consider juggalo but they not only consider themselves such, a lot of other people do as well. They advocate violence, to horrible music I might add. Nevermind the countless blogs, websites and forums where juggalos constantly not only threaten any one who flames them, but threaten physically other juggalos, over something as trivial as listening to bass-ment cuts. You have to understand that the juggalo mindset is perceived to be violent, because the majority are.

Robida even called himself JakeJekyll. A charecter from the Dark Circus. To the second he died, he though of himself as a juggalo. It's a fact you have to accept. It can be put in a NPOV in the end, as a little stub,noting that he violated the anti-racist aspect of being a juggalo, and is therefore not considered to have followed the juggalo path--pahsons 14:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, under the conflicts section I added in that there are people within do cause issues and whatnot with others and other Juggalos, such as the people you explained who are threatning and violent, but also reinforced not all Juggalos have such behavior. -MJoe March 3rd, 2006

juggalos
look everyone thinks that they are a juggalo and no they are not you tell them and then leave it alone dont push it and as for a lot of the information on this site being wrong i think not i know many many juggalos and i mean guys and girls and they have seen this and they say some of it is wrong like saying that juggalo is only refrenced to the guys no watch the 2002 wraith semanar and you will see but alot of it is right and of good use to all the wannabes out there if you are using it for the right reason then your good and your straight with me but if you dont know a thing about icp then get the f@#k outta here and deal its a god site but one thing what made you wanna put this up there in the first place help a juggalo out

Article is badly POV
Wikipedia articles are not fan web pages, and should not read like them. I am going to clean a few things up, and make this a bit more NPOV. --Xyzzyplugh 14:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

who wrote this s**t???
i spoke with my husband about it(whos been a juggalo for about 10 years) and he's told me that the whole thing is not true. i may not be a juggalette, but i know that this article about it is wrong because it sounds as if they're making it seem that the whole juggalo family is a cult or a religeous following...

Apparently, you can't read or type. It suprises me none that it seems wrong to you.--pahsons 03:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

i am not changing anything in this because that all should be able to make disscution now iknow that my typing and spelling skills are laking but i would just like to point out to you that we are not a group a gang or a cult and the way you described juggalo power makes us seem like a race movment and i even discused this with other juggalos and asked around a bit and we feel that you have it to a point if you have religion then just imagin the feeling you got when you first realy got faith in your self and in your actions and then the pride when you first accavied one of you hightest goals and then combine that with being able to seen your childs first steps and then rool that al into one no fear of wat others think and no disrespect of others that leads the thir respect of you and also think of a time when you stood alone in the dark with only your mind to keep you company for thaose that rember that feeling and the sence of fear that goes with it and then the relase when some one steped in and helped you that feeling that you can do anything that you want and no fear full confidence in your self and those that you keep company with that is wat juggalo power is the feeling in side that pride that love and that peace of mind that is wat it is all about you and your peace of mind the person i know some that i call juggalos but they say no their just people but they still have a pride and family love with every body and you all have friends like us wether you know it or not we are not bad people for the most part some of us have done bad tings but those are the choices of a single persone adn some juggalos may even disagree with me and you know wat they should how else are we to grow and learn if not my disagreements so to all peace out and much love to those that keep it real and stay fresh live your life the way you want to free to do wat you wish that is the juggalo way and the explnation for my spelling and typinng skill is simple i had to learn to read by word recontion and i only possess limmited spelling skills but i have a drgree in computer networking a high IQ im just a bit weird and i choose to live my life the way i wish and i have never been happier so some time you should try it if you do not already its a great high and with family it only makes it better

I cannot read your dribble and nonsense. You cannot be any older than 12 and should realize that you are not going to be any smarter in life and should just kill yourself now. Do you understand that how you communicate is what tells us how intelligent you are?


 * Pahsons, I suggest you stop with the personal attacks. Wikipedia clearly has a no personal-attacks policy.  This discussion page is only to be used for helping to improve the article, nothing else.  Unless you have something positive to contribute, then please keep your comments to yourself.  Might I also suggest you familarize yourself with Wikipedia's rules. To the creator of this disscussion section.  Again, this page is for improving the article.  If you feel something is wrong with the article, make a suggestion on what could be improved on specifically.  Saying "It's all wrong and makes Juggalos sound like a cult." in no way gives any editors an idea of what to edit as this is a vauge statement.  As Wikipedia encourages, make the edits yourself or have your husband do it if he is a supposed Juggalo and should be familar with the topic.  If you can't do this, then think of ways it could be improved.  Thanks. MJoe 08:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I said not one insult, just a good plan for someone to follow. Come on, there is a claim to have a 'drgree in computer networking', which doesn't exist on two levels. I am showing a high level of restraint, considering I do run several anti-juggalo groups, yet I want to keep this as netrual as possible. --pahsons 02:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It does not matter what she claims, it gives you no right to attack her. That entire section was nothing, but insults and you havn't been respectful towards her.  Again, I suggest you review the Wiki-Etiquette.    MJoe 03:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This article...
In it's current state has horrible, horrible factual discrepencies (Legacy? Anyone with the remotest amount of subject matter knowledge would know that no such ICP album exists.)  In addition to its being one of the most terribly written pieces I've ever had this displeasure of laying my eyes on, it has extreme bias in the way it downplays the Juggalo point of view. It seems most people want to show only one point of view (in other words, the non-Juggalo one). Any non-Juggalo will downplay any Juggalo-written article as a "fanpage," but what kind of encyclopedic integrity would that be to NOT show the Juggalo side of things.

I'm going to write a brand new one, straight from scratch, with a completely neutral POV, and hopefully put an end to this stupid controversy once and for all. Heck, I'm even going to bring it to a college professor to verify its neutrality and hopefully get some tips etc.

I'm rather sick of non-Juggalos writing articles on "Juggalo," when these people have absolutely no knowledge exept for their own mostly baseless preconceptions. 66.58.196.67


 * i am sorrie for being off topic adn i can under stand why people get confused because of lack of communication you want to know the truth about juggalos the truth the big question the secret nobody know wat a juggalo is and no one will ever know a juggalo is some one who is true to them selves and can be any one the proble here is not communication it is the fact that there are very few juggalo real ones it is a sub culture and it is a wide one at that so you have to look at it like this you have a huge sub cultur and in side that based on location that in side that sub culture you have more sub culture that is the big problem you have with defining a juggalo there are so meany different typs of us that it is sometimes hard for even us to determin the menning of the word juggalo and i am sorrie for not being objective on this page but we are very deffencive or our name and reputation to those that wish to find out more about us the web is not the best place for that in order to find out more abuot us you must live among us because in order to truly know some one you must walk a mile in there shoes just know that the real juggalos the true family wants noting more than to live in peace and be free that is wat it is about thank you


 * That's pretty much my point. Detractors won't be happy until they have what essentially amounts to a watered-down definition of "Juggalo" here on Wikipedia.  Why they downplay the Juggalo subculture so vehemently is beyond me, but I can only assume a pre-existing discontent for Juggalos exists among them.  Nevertheless, I'm going to try, once again, to write a factual article, and one that contains the Juggalo POV and the common perception (or misconceptions, whatever the case maybe).  All written by a Juggalo, me.  After all, I don't expect a marine biologist to write an accurate article concerning quantum physics.  I wouldn't expect a fan of rap music to write about the punk subculture or gothic subculture.  So why these people expect (or want) non-Juggalos to write an article about the Juggalo subculture is, again, beyond my comprehension. - Brad 01:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Elaboration

Allow me to elaborate, line for line, why this article, in its current state, is garbage. No such thing as driving the point home too much, in my book.

A Juggalo is a fan of the Detroit rap group, Insane Clown Posse (ICP).
 * Fair enough summary for a reader who has absolutely zero knowledge of what a Juggalo is. Nice introduction, but it's unfair to state that this is all there is to being a Juggalo.  This article downplays this point.  My new article (which should be ready in its tentative form tonight) will correct this.

The group invented a mythology
 * This is the writer's opinion. Sure, opinions are subjective, and one can perceive the Dark Carnival as a mythology of sorts.  However, ICP has not claimed the Dark Carnival to be some sort of tangible thing or actual event, so in reality it should not be categorized as a form of mythology in this article.

in which the term "Juggalo" means "a follower of the Dark Carnival",
 * In fact, ICP has not defined "Juggalo" as "a follower of the Dark Carnival."

as explained on their album, Legacy.
 * ICP has no album entitled Legacy.

''Group member Violent J explained the term's origins in the ICP documentary, Behind the Paint, saying that during a live performance of "The Juggla" from the Carnival of Carnage album, he had spontaneously addressed the audience: "What about you Juggalo? Are there any Juggalos in here?", and the name stuck. He also said in the 2002 Wraith seminar that he does not like the word because many people think that it only refers to the male fanbase; it in fact refers to all fans, male or female.''
 * Nice filler. This is possibly the best-written and most accurate part of the article.  By the way, I was being sarcastic when I called this "nice."

''The Juggalo community (also referred to as the Juggalo Family) started up in the early 1990s. As seen in other subcultures, from parallels in music came parallels in interests, style, and slang.''
 * Captain Obvious to the rescue?

Much like urban culture, the Juggalo community is racially diverse, with Black, Hispanic, and Asian members among the larger group of North European ancestry.
 * Two points on this: First, the statement is contradictory in that the author first states the racial diversity of Juggalos, and then states that it's not racially diverse, being mostly "Northern European."  Secondly, where does this individual get his/her information?  Most Juggalos are from Iceland, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark?  Says who?  In fact, I know no "Nordic" Juggalos.  I knew Jewish, central European, Hispanics, and Native Americans though.  Is that to say there are none out there of Scandinavian descent?  No, just that this guy's got his generalizations mixed up.

Painting one's face in the style of the members of Insane Clown Posse has been referred to as the unofficial membership badge.
 * What?

''Many schools are opposed to any graphic association with gangs and/or rap music, and Juggalos fall foul of this. Some schools force students to remove or reverse their T-shirts to avoid conflicts with other students and staff members. Schools also oppose the wearing of face paint on any day other than Halloween or its nearest school day.''
 * Uninteresting but irrelevant filler.

-Brad 01:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This Article Needs to be gone
Plain and simple, "juggalo" belongs on the ICP page (that is horribly in need of POV repair as well). Dedicating an article to a music groups fan base that contributes nothing to society in general is asinine. Google all you want, there is not a single site on the internet that describes anything note-worthy. All you will get is hundreds of thousands of poorly designed geocities and myspace type pages.

This is all that should be on the ICP article "A Juggalo is a fan of the Detroit rap group, Insane Clown Posse (ICP)." That's it.

Let's end this Juggalo nonsense once and for all.


 * If you'd read at the top, there was already a vote to delete it or not and it recived a no consensus result, meaning it stays. As I have said before (many times and I'm feeling like a skipping record,) Juggalo is a sub-culture, with simularities of others.  As for Juggalo being non-contributing to society, you should check alot of news sites and video searches.  Even during the columbine shooting, it was rumored they were juggalos and they metioned an ICP song named "12 Sktizo."  Even though ICP has absolutely no song by that name.  So they have in fact had an impact on society.  Though in a negitive light as people don't understand it.  Oh and please sign your comments, it's kinda a rule on Wiki and it helps distinguish you from everything else. - ShinobiLo 07:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Again it must be argued that the web presence of this supposed "sub-culture" consists of poorly created vanity and fan sites. There is no validity to the claims of newsworthyness of juggalos.  Parrotheads do not even get this kind of attention.  Merge this worthless waste of space into the ICP article. - fyrre


 * Here's a news cast from Las Vegas, which didn't belong to juggalo websites... Las Vegas News Cast.  Now, how in prey tell is this "un newsworthy?"  It's a news station which broadcasts to Las Vegas and it's surrounding metropolitian area?  The fact that a as you say, "supposed sub-culture" can get a story where much more importent stories such as murders, city issues and what not?  Even The Gathering of the Juggalos has gotten notation by many music related sites such as VH1 and MTV, the two biggest related televison networks in the United States and I can't recall that the Insane Clown Posse or the Juggalos had gotten praise from either station.  Another thing I should bring to your attention, just because the websites are of "poor" quality does not mean that Juggalos are not there.  If anything these thousands of pages only reinforce my point.  The quality does not matter in this debate, only the fact there are these sites and that they continue to exsist.  I must also mention that Juggalos don't not only adhire to the internet.  With the inclusion of the nationwide Gathering of the Juggalos, Juggalos also run their own city based or regional based gatherings.  Which obviously would take a considerable amount of people and energy to execute and run. - ShinobiLo 08:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Gathering of the Juggalos
I've merged the article into this one. There is no reason these need to be seperate articles, and a lot of the explaination of what a Juggalo is in the Gathering article can be covered by this article.--Rosicrucian 14:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * These are REVIEWS. This article keeps getting worse and worse.  --fyrre

Merge and subsequent Revert
I've undone Mel Ettis' reversion of the article. When Mel reverted the article he didn't notice that the article was actually three articles that I'd merged, and the resulting revert did not undo the redirects on the merged pages. I've left a note on Mel's talk page explaining why his revert wasn't appropriate due to the merge, so hopefully we can avoid this in the future.

To clarify, if anyone feels the Dark Carnival and Gathering information don't belong here, please revert their respective articles so they don't redirect here before removing the information from the Juggalo article.--Rosicrucian 14:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Faygo cite
I originally found the ICP reference on the Faygo wikipedia entry. Mostly it seems to trace back to Faygo featuring prominently in ICP lyrics, and visual references to it can be seen on the Gathering website. The only other source I can find is UrbanDictionary, which certainly isn't acceptable to cite.

It's proving tricky to make this article informative enough while still sufficiently sourced to be a Wikipedia article.--Rosicrucian 22:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Found some better cites for it.--Rosicrucian 23:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's understandable, because personally alot of what I've come to know information wise was through just experiance of being a Juggalo. So most of it's mouth to mouth info and citation is obviously difficult.  Now if there was a digital transcript of Violent J's Behind the Paint, alot of this would be much easier to cite and your everyday person isn't going to own a copy of it, so we can't really cite pages and chapters.  Oish... ShinobiLo 10:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Critical Info
Has there been any academic/media attempt to understand Juggalo's or the subculture? Linking to that would provide some insight into the culture, as well as add legitimacy to the wikipedia page. I'm sure someone has dealt with it... maybe the Phoenix News piece (Confessions of an Ex-Juggolo): http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-05-10/music/confessions-of-an-ex-juggalo/

I think most of the people posting here have no idea what the hell they are talking about. There are violent people in every race, color, size, shape, and form. I have been a JUGGALO since the early 90's. It does not mean that I go and act out the shit I heard in the songs. The people stated above are simply just fucking nutballs. The same thing was done to every strange music icons from BLACK SABBITH putting subliminal messages in their music to Elvis being lewd for dancing the way he did. It's very easy to talk trash when your on the out side looking in. Your opinions are prejudiced, biased, and simple minded. This is being written by a successful juggalo that has a wife, children, and a respectable career. Furthermore, anyone who states that the music they listen to has affected their actions, is apparently a MENTAL MIDGET and is in need of a high dose of zan-x. M.C.L.--JUGGALO-X

Wow i second that notion a juggalo is a way of life and its just a twisted way to say that we all suck ass and that our fuck-ups in life will come to bite us in the ass unless we get smart, say fuck off to the close-mindedness and iggnorance of this wicked world and better our life cause there is one goal in a true juggalo's heart and that is to go to shangri-la and whether they want to be dumb asses well fuck them and keep going on to better your life cause all that truely matters is getting up there and anyone who has something to judge well i got one thing to say how big is your demon chasing you and when HE comes again will you be able to accept it and truely say yeah i fucked up and well im GUILTY cause you (as my family puts it) cant bullshit someone who knows your a bullshitter. i guess being open-minded to a different perception of god is wrong but everyones idealism is right. FUCK OFF!!!!

MUCH CLOWN LOVE JUGGALOS & JUGGALETTES

WHOOP WHOOP

You know i dont relly use the computer that often i mean i dont even have one of those myspace things anyway i got on the computer tonite and i decided to look up what the computer had to say about juggalos.. the first discussion page i go to is talking about exatly what i feel inside.. so anyway, ive been a juggalo since 1986 "woop" "woop" so that would make me 22 yearsold and honestly tonight some body asked me what the meaning of a juggalo was and just like always i couldnt give him a actual meaning of what it was so i got on the homies computer and i found the page before this and i was stoked to see that shaggy or jay idont know who said what but anyway so basically world what im trying to say is as long as you true to yourself and the people you care about no mater what stay true to your word or at least above all do what you know is right regaurdless whow or what tells you its wrong and if if you are a JUGGALO "woop" "woop" thanx alot mathu facku and mathu fackuettes fur putting something poative about da fam cause last time i got on a comp was lik 4 years ago and al ther was, was a whole lot of neg shitz and you know if any one who isnt a juggalo or lette were to actually get to know one of us youd find a whole knew meanig to the word juggalo.. honestly nevr mind once you stop being so serious and closed minded, what do you mean words can only mean won thing and nevermind im babling why are you still reading stop      i thought tha was funny did YOU!!!

MUCH KLOWN LOVIN TO ALL THE MIDNIGHT TOKERS and what knot M.C.L. "WOOP" "WOOP"                                                         form da no-town YA NINJA, Mr.E da 1 and onle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.56.238 (talk) 03:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
Oppose. Merge has been proposed with no prior discussion and no statement of what the reasoning behind it is. Juggalo article also refers to an annual music festival which involves multiple Psychopathic recording artists, not just ICP. Juggalo subculture continues to receive media attention independant of ICP, particularly issues regarding self-proclaimed Juggalos and gang violence. ICP article is already large and fairly cluttered, and both articles would suffer from the merge.--Rosicrucian 00:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose per Rosicrucian. Kasreyn 23:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose, however i strongly feel this page needs a second look at.The juggsd86 16:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree- I don't think the fans of ANY band are significant enough to even merit an entry at all. Merge any relevant information to a new "Fans" section on ICP's article, and get this out of here.

Oppose, the Juggalo subculture is not merely an ICP fanbase. However, this page definitely requires attention. It bears a fairly heavy bias against the Juggalo subculture. Page needs informaion about the link between the Dark Carnival mythology and Judeo-Christian ethic. Psychopathic artsist use subliminal messaging, irony, and sometimes outright preaching in lyrics to push humantarianism and loyalty to a supreme power. 68.157.193.253 18:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree, theres other bands with fan-classes that don't have their own pages... Erryday I'm 18:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

What i have to say is. i am a juggalette. Being a juggalo accepts you to a family. in that family people would take a bullet for you. people love and accept you for who you are, no one is judgmental. Juggalos really caare about things that you bitches dont give a shit about.

Oppose The Juggalo subculture clearly differs from what is traditionally understood to be a "fan base", and inarguably has strong anti-social messages. The above comment (the one totally out of context with this discussion) seems a good representation of the group discussed. This kind of bizarre, uneducated, tribalistic, psycho-babble reflecting their wide-spread social maladjustment is unusual, and therefore notable. Doomferret —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.232.87 (talk) 06:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Why this article is such a lightning rod for vandalism I'll never know. The anonymous IPs I sort of expect, but ordinary registered users, who arguably ought to know better, seem prone to it too.--Rosicrucian 19:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's almost as if they think we wouldn't extend equal protection from vandalism to such an "unimportant" issue! I for one treat all vandalism I see the same.  My guess as to its frequency is pop teen culture, where identifying oneself with a band or group is seen as sufficient excuse to mock or attack others.  Most of the vandalism I've seen to ICP related articles has been very sophomoric in tone, supporting this theory.  It's just kids being kids.  Kasreyn 20:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * pssst... they vandalize it because it is ridiculous to have an encyclopedia entry for a group of fans of a specific band. I don't find a Boy George Fan Club entry anywhere on Wiki.  Why these guys?  Is it because they imitate the artist that they like?  Been done before.  Many times.  Is it because their counter-culture has been linked to violence?  The same could be said for fans of other specific artists.  They all had silly names for their group, as well.  To me, there is nothing distinctive or spectacular about a person who dresses up like a musician that they like.  Their demand for noteworthiness does not make them noteworthy.   This sort of entry invites vandalism because it covers a topic that is not the forte or intent of Wikipedia.  - Forridean   26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to comment on the recent reversion due to "vandalism to last revision by The Juggler." I believe this accusation is in error because there was no change made to the article by this reversion. The changes that I made to the article was a re-wording of certain phrases in the "Alleged Juggalo Crime" section that were either not in an encyclopedic tone or poorly and vaguely worded. The Juggler 20:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Violent Juggalos
I've created a new section for the issue of Juggalo-related gang violence. This is not some sort of invitation to go out and find every news article you can find on Juggalos behaving badly. I've also added a link to the Jacob Robida incident. Kasreyn 19:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm working to improve the section. Thanks to Rosicrucian for your help! Editors should note that:
 * The section title indicates that all these incidents are only allegedly involving Juggalos, and therefore there is no reason to repeat "alleged Juggalos" within the specific incidents;
 * Date of the most recent attacks was erroneously reported as "week of July 14th"; this was the dateline of the news report, but the attacks are said to have occurred on the nights of June 19th and 20th.
 * The attackers are self-proclaimed Juggalos. It would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to conclude that they are Juggalos, not to mention POV.  This has been noted.
 * Added information on seven suspects arrested, three charged with assault and robbery. I don't think we need any more detail at this time until there are further developments.
 * "Allegedly attacked, robbed," etc. "Alleged" wasn't needed here; no one disputes that the attacks occurred.  What is a matter of uncertainty is the identity of the attackers.

I'd also just like to point out that I'm a little disappointed in the AP's and Reuters's coverage. The AP story, run in the Seattle link but most likely a News-Tribune feed, seems to demonstrate bias against ICP (they go out of their way to pick two of the band's darkest album titles, in an attempt to show the reader only the negative side of ICP), not to mention their unnecessary and inaccurate report on Robida (they claim Robida had no anti-gay material on his website, but he had Nazi material on his website, and anyone who has studied Nazism knows that they hated gays). They claim that Robida's homepage was full of ICP references but neglect to mention the Neo-Nazi references; I can only conclude that they are leaving some information out in order to lead the reader to believe that ICP alone, rather than Nazism, motivated Robida's actions. If AP were truly unbiased, they would mention both the Nazi references and the ICP references and leave it to the reader to figure out which was his motivation. Disappointing, AP.

I'll continue to work on the section but I'd love it if we could find a more accurate (and more neutral) source than that. Kasreyn 00:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Robida has been a subject of a fair amount of debate on this talkpage. Check the archive link if you want to get a sense of how much conflict there has been on how to present him here, if at all.--Rosicrucian 16:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I can understand why there's a lot of concern over his inclusion... somehow the idiot (Robida) didn't notice all the times ICP rapped about bigotry being an evil thing.  So I can certainly see that Juggalos are very concerned to have it be known that they reject Robida's claim to being one.  But the thing is, readers are likely to have heard something about it, possibly from one of the biased sources I cite above, and they may come here looking for information.  We can either say nothing, and readers can go on mistakenly believing that ICP was the only factor behind Robida's actions, or we can include info on him to point out to the readers the likelihood that Nazism was a much greater influence on his actions.  I'd say we should include it, because we clearly can't trust the mainstream media to give ICP a fair shake.  Kasreyn 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, though given that he has his own article, simply linking to it with a brief summary and working to improve his article may be the better course of action.--Rosicrucian 23:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "The attackers are self-proclaimed Juggalos. It would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to conclude that they are Juggalos, not to mention POV.  This has been noted."
 * Interesting. So who decides who is a real juggalo and who isn't?  Is a self-proclaimed juggalo not a real juggalo if he makes the others look bad in the press?  I had never heard of juggalos before today, but today I learned that juggalos are identified as a "known crminal gang" by the Salt Lake City Gang Task Force; it seems to me there must be something to it for them to make such a designation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 157.127.124.15 (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Removed claim
I've just removed the following from the article:
 * Sunnyvale, CA July 21 2006, Juggalo gang deals drugs, robs and stalks users. []

First off, the writeup is not NPOV. There are claims that an alleged Juggalo gang deals drugs, robs, and stalks users. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

Additionally, the linked source seems rather... bizarre...  to say the least. It claims a lot more than the Wikipedia write-up suggests. Here's its headline: Under which are such examples of journalistic integrity and adherence to the unvarnished truth as:
 * HEADLINE: NEO-NAZI JUGGALO CULT-GANG IN SUNNYVALE
 * "Anti-Gay Juggalo Gangs and the Sunnyvale Police are about to kill a man."
 * "a Juggalo cult-gang"
 * "juggalos" – self-proclaimed Neo-Nazi skinheads"

In general, the blog article is an attempt to push the case of this guy, who claims that he is being stalked, harassed, and threatened and that the Sunnyvale police refuse to protect him. However, WP:RS instructs us that blogs and personal websites are not to be considered reliable sources.

Unless a less biased and more reliable source is found, and a more NPOV writeup is adopted, this material should remain out of the article. Kasreyn 23:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to mention that the current state of the Alleged Juggalo Crimes section is very well done. I have criticized it in the past for containing unreferenced claims and inflammatory remarks, but the current categorization of Juggalo as its own article and the current alleged crimes all having reputable references is acceptable. I should also mention that the word "alleged" should be used when mentioning any crime and it is important to include reactions and official statements from the artists and record company. The Juggler 02:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Dead Links
Some of the news stories linked to have since had the news stories taken down, so I've removed the links. Remember that local news sites often will not archive their news, so news links need to be checked periodically to make sure they still work.--Rosicrucian 15:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The most frustrating example is ICP's press statement on the Robida affair, which I can no longer find in their website's archive.  And it appears from Google that not a single other organization or news service bothered to report on the statement or quote the band.  (Just another sad example of how ICP's side of things is never discussed in the mainstream media.)  Wikipedia provides the only hits for the quote.  So, it would appear to an impartial, new editor to these pages that there is no way to know if the quote is for real.  Can you help me by looking through ICP's website archives and trying to find a live link to the statement?  Because if it's really gone, the only remaining solution would be to email the webmaster and ask that he create a special page to host the statement.  Kasreyn 19:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I found a Village Voice article that quotes it, and have fixed the link on Robida's article.--Rosicrucian 21:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Notice that in that same article, a reference to another Village Voice writer's "wiki roundup" says that this article makes no mention of Juggalo violence, and accuses us of a whitewash.  Note that now, we do indeed have a section on Juggalo violence, so we've definitely improved!  This should be considered not only a source for the ICP statement on Robida, but as definite proof that the section on Juggalo violence should be retained:  it is what readers are wanting information about when they come to this article.  Kasreyn 05:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation Needed
Four of the "Alleged Juggalo Crime" entries have not been cited from any reliable source, does this not damage the POV of this article? These claims could be firsthand reports, word-of-mouth rumors, or even outright lies for all we know. These claims should be presented in some article if they can be cited as being true and documented cases, but otherwise I believe they should be removed from the article. I would not take the liberty of removing these claims myself, nor should any other user; this issue should be discussed here before action should be taken. The Juggler 23:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Everything2
Everything2 is not a valid source to cite. It is not a reference work, and does not seek to be. In the future, do not cite it within a Wikipedia article.--Rosicrucian 04:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Juggalo Radio
Wikipedia articles are not appropriate places to plug internet radio stations, regardless of whether they are related to the article at hand.--Rosicrucian 14:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And it seems it just gets added back in.--Rosicrucian 17:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've made a broad sweep of the articles for all the Psychopathic Records artists, and it seems the same link was spammed across nearly all of them. I've removed what I could, but it seems an anonymous IP, likely the site owner, is already reverting my edits.--Rosicrucian 17:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Gah.
Typos in my edit summaries make me sad. Oh well. I should have mentioned in that edit summary that I also tweaked the violent incidents header to something less unwieldy, but hopefully no less accurate.--Rosicrucian 04:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

OR and Citation Needed
Oh for crying out loud, let's not riddle the whole article with OR tags. Citation Needed tags are much less obtrusive, and we can put the OR tag at the top if it's that extensive.--Rosicrucian 00:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

POV?
I'm kinda new but this seems like POV in its most blatant sense.

The juggalo family overlooks race, size and class and combines to make one of the most wicked families in existance.

Mainly the most wicked part if your slow.

It probably should be this:

The juggalo family overlooks race, size and class and combines to make one of the most loyal and welcoming families in existance.

The term 'Wicked' is a way to describe it on your own grounds, but not on a wikipedia article.The juggsd86 16:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it should read: Juggalo's claim to overlook race, size and class and combines to make one of the most loyal and welcoming families in existance. Fyrre 02:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

good call.The juggsd86 19:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not to nitpick, but I don't think it should say anything on the subject unless there's a source to back it up. If someone happens to know a source that states it, even a website with some measure of credibility, then I agree. 71.217.160.111 08:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I AM A JUGGALO...IT IS ABOUT FAMILY.....WE ARE ONE BODY..ONE FLESH...THICKER THAN CEMENT...ITS NOT A GANG...NOT A MAFIA..IT IS A FAMILY, A PLACE WHERE WE ARE ACCEPTED WHEN SOCIATY DISOWNS US

BALBOA...BAKERSFIELD CALIFORNIA

06 CLAN

Disregarding the above nutcase for a second, I'd just like to say that if Juggalos "overlook race, size and class", I am the King of Space. That's utter bull. - 21:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Well youre looking at it the wrong way. The juggalo family accepts everyone at first, but then certain groups of people decide they hate juggalos so the juggalos dont accept them anymore. its kinda hard to make sense of. i guess you just need to be a juggalo to understand.the juggreserection 16:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, what is the Golden Rule of Juggalos? "Treat others as you want to be treated, but don't take any shit,"

Trevor, Calmar, IA ~MMFWCL

Actually I agree with the two above the person calling them a nutcase. But you just sayin their looking at it the wrong way is stupid. Because it's their opinion on what being a Juggalo means to them. How can that be wrong? I'm a Juggalette, am I a nutcase? I would think not. We do overlook race size and class. But if you hate us why should we accept you? Would you accept someone who hated you just because of what you believe in? I would hope not, or that would make you the nutcase. Saying we think we're kings of space and its utter bull, well thats just flat out talking crap. Take it to someone else who cares. Any Juggalo wouldn't even let it phase them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.162.14 (talk) 13:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

radio show
Apparently I'm the only person who listens to Sirius and heard the whole interview. The whole show is available on the Usenet, if any of you doubt what was said. To claim what they said was in a joking matter, then everything they said during the interview was said in a joking matter, as thier tone, inflection, and other aspects of speech did not change at all for that question--pahsons 01:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * For starters, it's unsourced so we can't include it. Unless you have a reliable link to a transcript we can't put it in. What's more, this is the Howard Stern show. Obviously it was tongue-in-cheek. To say otherwise is baseless speculation.--Rosicrucian 17:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ask and you shall receive

http://www.marksfriggin.com/news06/9-25.htm#mon

'Howard took some phone calls for the guys. One guy asked if they're okay with the Juggalos going out and mugging people. They said that they're all for it'

When one of them claimed to be a ninja, he then said he was joking, after going into a lengthy description of where he trained and what he could do. None of that from either one on the mugging comment.
 * I do not think that is a source that we can cite either. For one, it only summarizes, not transcribes. Ergo, we can't really pull direct quotes from it. It's a fan project, not an official transcript.--Rosicrucian 22:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think most of the people posting here have no idea what the hell they are talking about. There are violent people in every race, color, size, shape, and form. I have been a JUGGALO since the early 90's. It does not mean that I go and act out the shit I heard in the songs. The people stated above are simply just fucking nutballs. The same thing was done to every strange music icons from BLACK SABBITH putting subliminal messages in thier music to Elvis being lude for dancing the way he did. It's very easy to talk trash when your on the out side looking in. Your opinions are predujice, biase, and simple minded. This is being written by a successful juggalo that has a wife, children, and a respectable career. Furthermore, anyone who states that the music they listen to has affected their actions, is apparently a MENTAL MIDGET and is in need of a high dose of zan-x. M.C.L.--JUGGALO-X

Xanax. Where do you get zan-x? 98.208.95.209 (talk) 05:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Planning for the Eighth Annual Gathering
I think this should be deleted. I've been scouring the net searching for any relation between Psychopathic Records and the Indian Ranch and Wiki is the only source available. I've checked all the Juggalo news sites and have not found anything about this whatsoever. If an announcement had been made, it would have been plastered all over the official webpages of Psychopathic Records. But.. If you have a source, I'd love to see it!

"Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!"
As I've explained numerous times in the edit summaries, it doesn't matter if "Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!" is the "correct" term. We have to go with what the cited article claims they said.--Rosicrucian 20:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

picture
I believe the picture should have a different caption. i know what it means, but to someone dim enough, "a 'juggalo' in his environment" may suggest that juggalos live in the forest. The juggsd86 04:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Me being a Juggalo disagree with the above writing. Our enviroment is were we are with our homies. Enviroment doesn't atomatically mean we live in the forest, deedadee! so deal with it. K?  ~Juggalo4lifeandlonger101 january 25, 08 12:55

Alleged Juggalo Crime section cites
I've cited what I could, but unless I could find a news article that specifically mentioned Juggalos or ICP I've removed the incident. I did find quite a few cites for Robert Belz, but none that indicated he had any connection to the fandom.--Rosicrucian 23:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

As a Juggalette I would like to thank you. You've pointed out the fact that Juggalos aren't all bad. Thank you. =] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.162.14 (talk) 13:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to point out (since I can't edit the main page) that there have been developments with the Tess Damm/Brian Grove case. Brian was sentenced to 40 years and Tess to 23. Here is a link http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9159224 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Fiend (talk • contribs) 15:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
This whole article needs a major cleanup or deletion. It's just shoddy. 81.187.6.201 13:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The Dark Carnival Mythology
First Off, I am a juggalo. Still reading? Good. I find this article to be a blemish on the face of Wikipedia. This article about the Juggalo subculture says nothing about the lives or beliefs of juggalos. A short blurb about the GOTJ and juggalo-related violence does nothing to show what being a juggalo is all about.

Most glaringly, there is only a brief mention of the Dark Carnival, even though it is central to the juggalo philosophy. Here is some information regarding the dark carnival. What I type can be verified at Insane Clown Posse's offical web site, as well as at juggalofaith.com:

The Dark Carnival is comprised of six Joker's Cards: The Carnival of Carnage, The Ringmaster, The Riddlebox, The Great Milenko, The Amazing Jekel Brothers, and The Wraith

Each of the jokers cards has an accompanying album that has been released by ICP (with the exception of The Wraith, which has two: Shangri-La and Hell's Pit)

Beginning on The Carnival of Carnage and increasing throughout the joker's cards, which are referred to as The Saga, there are hidden references to Judeo-Christian ethic. Some are as simple as reversed audio, while others move into irony and example embedded directly in the lyrics.

Each card has a specific meaning, and represents an aspect of humanity. The Carnival of Carnage is the beginning of the Saga, and represents violence and the tendancy to to turn a blind eye to the suffereing of others.

The Ringmaster deals with sin. In the Dark Carnival mythology, when one dies, all his/her sins coalesce into a creature known as the Ringmaster. The size and veracity of the Ringmaster is directly proportional to the severety and number of sins the person committed in his life. The person will then have to fight this creature before he can pass into Shangri-La (juggalo heaven).

The Riddlebox deals with judgement. When one dies, his destiny will be reveled to him by turning the crank of the Riddlebox, which resembles an old, worn Jack-in-the-Box.

The Great Milenko deals with hypocrisy. The Great Milenko is an illusionist that uses the power of deception to lead bad people to believe that they lead good lives, and only in death are they truly reveled for what they are.

The Amazing Jekel Brothers are another form of judgment. Jake and Jack Jeckel are two brothers that together, form the human soul. Jack Jeckel represents evil, hatred, and sin. Jake Jeckel represents love, goodness, and compassion. When one dies, the two halves of their soul will split, and begin juggling. For each sin the person committed in life, another ball will be added to their show. Jack will try to trip up Jake, who is desperately trying to catch every ball. He will throw curves, toss them behind him, and other like behaviours. If either of the brothers drop a ball, the observer (the dead) will be cast into Hell.

The Wraith deals with eternity. The Wraith himself closely resembles death. When one dies, The Wraith is responsible for "Guid(ing) the departed upon the path that they have chosen" (Walk into the Light from ICP's The Wraith:Shangri-la). When one is cast into Hell's Pit, it is The Wraith whom will deliver him to his destiny. The Wraith is the only Joker's Card to be spread across multiple albums.

The Joker's Cards are not intented to be taken litereally. The entire saga is a metaphor for a way of life that many people don't understand. There is nothing evil or wrong about juggalos. Granted there are bad apples, but for the most part, the Juggalo Family are extremly friendly, compassionate people. They just don't put up with abuse that other members of other subcultures might. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thndrchld (talk • contribs) 18:50, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully this will at least lend a little balance to an article that seems to be mostly biased against juggalos.

Thndrchld 18:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is only brief mention of the Dark Carnival because the carnival has its own article.--RosicrucianTalk 20:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sadly, that's no longer true, it was deleted a short while back..... for reasons I don't fully understand.... Onimura Ixmythot 18:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so the whole thing is a psycho cult. The fact remains that it's unimportant. You say this article is a blemish on wikipedia? I say YOU are a blemish on this earth. Clowns suck, mimes are better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.117.141.8 (talk) 16:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed
With the Juggalo above. Dont go and try to change anything though, the Juggalo wiki police will be on ya in no time flat. They always try to justify there actions with, "well its wiki policy" well there policies can get shoved where the sun dont shine for all I care. These pages are not very informitive for being what its posed too.--1WickedClown (talk) 04:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Userbox
Anyone know of a Juggalo userbox?the juggreserection 16:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC) never mind i made my own.the juggreserection 15:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

sup i'm down wit the clown for life but how the f*ck do you make a juggalo userbox?emoboy557 (talk) 17:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Psychopathic Records Wikiproject
support the approval of this wikiproject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Psychopathic_Records the juggreserection 18:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is the Wikiproject:Psychopathic Records page. Please spread it around.the juggreserection 14:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

More Content
I really think this article needs more content than the simple words that are already on there.--ItsJodo (talk) 02:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Names
screw dis shit there is no reason to call juggalo music horrorcore Andrew Toste(juggalo)

Hello, my fam and I really enjoyed the "names" section, which tells all the other titles juggalos can go by, just for the fact that it cleared up some things as to what was what in the music's lyrics. So why has it been deleted? Just wondering if anyone could leave a copy of it on my page.Mutlee (talk) 15:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't like that they call it horrorcore music...they don't call other rappers sexcore or drugcore...wtf is with this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.198.220.58 (talk) 05:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that horrorcore music is an appropiate term for it. I have been down for a while now, and I also, am a horrorcore rapper. I feel that if you rap about killing people with an axe, or "I stab b****es with a chainsaw" (From Just Another Crazy Clique w/ Three Six Mafia), then you are horrorcore(music with a liking to horror movies). I will also quote one of my songs(I'm allowed to cause I own the copyrights on them)...

I’m gonna smack you with the hatchet on the back of the head Then I may paint your room with a new color called blood red And then run right across the hall into your mothers bedroom I don’t think I need to tell you what I’ve got planned to do I’m gonna tie her to the bed as I commit another crime Spread open her legs, then ask what’s up with all that grime Perhaps your man needs to get busy keeping that s**t in order He should’ve f**ked her once a week or at least said that he loved her Cause she ain’t nothing but a home to him he took her for granted Now its my turn to see if my seed will get planted But it won’t become anything because when I get done She’ll be in the back yard with her piece of s**t son Then I go after your brother, while he sits there on his bed He didn’t hear my other work with the headphones on his head So I walked into his room, and said Wassup with you my man Then I took the f**king hatchet and dropped him right from where he stands

Now say again that it should not be called horrorcore. Like I said, "Horror"core seems to be the most fitting term. That is my opinion. - Loony J, Savannah Georgia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.63.236.116 (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Floobs
Should this article mention that before the Juggalos existed, there were Floobs? I have read it many times in behind the paint. Rob and Joe were the O.G Floobs.--1WickedClown (talk) 04:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikid clowns
as a juggalo all i have to say is this page is verry informitive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Little Pagan GRL (talk • contribs) 01:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair play? If we pan on reporting "Crimes" why do we not show the positive things juggalos do? I wlil work on a list of positive Juggalo actions and report back. Until we have a list of both god and bad I think this article is BIAS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.151.188 (talk) 02:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Juggalos looked at wrong
As a juggalo I am appalled to see how we as the dark carnival family seen as offensive, and the crimes section, of course there are gonna be crimes, it's not cause we are juggalos, it's because of who the person is. I am a juggalo, I am in the military, and this is bullshit.(70.122.104.141 (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC))wicked jay
 * I get what you're saying. If we listed every crime commited by people who may or may not be Insane Clown Posse fans (and are largely not Juggalos, as Psychopathic Records attests), we'd have a short article with a long section - and dedicating that much focus to these stories, sourcing entirely from minor newspapers - comes across as not being neutral. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC))
 * I removed the long list of news stories. I think it would be a good idea to take a look at the Cizmar and Stevens articles, and any other neutral report involving juggalos and prepare useful content for the article. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 14:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC))