Talk:Kashmir/Archive 1

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Shouldn't this page start with some basic geographical information -- like where Kashmir is, for instance -- before diving into comparatively recent conflicts in the region? Mswake

-- Could you please NPOV it ? --Taw

This account of the Pakistan/India conflict differs from the assessment on India/Transnational issues. Which is more accurate? Did Harisingh opt to join India before or after the military occupation? --DanKeshet

Article says An emperor (which one?) once said, "if there is any heaven on Earth, it's here!" -- I thought he was talking of a garden, not of Kashmir as a whole... (it is inscribed on the gate of some famous Mughal garden...) -- SJK

-- The West always see things about Kashmir from the Indian point of view. The real thing that hapenned is like: "80% of the population of Kashmir was muslim. The ruler of Kashmir at that time was a hindu name Dogara. As we all know that all muslim majority nations were to be joined in Pakistan, the hindu raja double crossed the muslims of Kashmir & sold them to India, estimating amount is 5000 for each man in Kashmir. India sent its troops to Kashmir. The army sheded blood of innocent muslims, raped women, killed children, It is believed that more than 80,000 kashmiris had been killed since 1947. & now when islamic groups are fighting & trying to force indian army out from the territory, India calls it terrorism. But the killing & raping of innocent lives by army is not terrorism? -

From "Talk:Kashmir crisis" (article now merged into this one):


 * This article does not tell anything about the fact there's been a territorial conflict over Kashmir since the two nations gained independence in 1948; several wars have been fought over it. Recent developments are not new, though the potentional nuclear threat is. Unfortunately, the Kashmir article itself doesn't really tell anything either. Also, the Kashmir crisis article may be a little premature - if nothing happens, it's not really worthy of a separate article, and if it escalates to a nuclear war, it will not be called crisis anymore. The links at the bottom are also likely to expire sometime in the near future, so they also provide little information later. It would be better to include information on the crisis on the Kashmir page (or maybe a History of Kashmir page), which doesn't become obsolete or wrongly titled.


 * Maybe "we" should try to make the Kashmir topic a little more informative (I don't have the time/information at hand right now)?


 * June 11, 2002, jheijmans

Thanks, Anome, for reacting so quickly on my suggestion. I'll try to add some more facts on Kashmir myself this week. jheijmans

Removed this again from the page, it's not really NPOV:

An Indian version of events:


 * Sitting in the Himalayas, the region had a booming tourism industry until possession of the territory became militarily disputed after the British withdrew from the region and terrorism became prevalent.


 * Kashmir was a Hindu state until the Islamic wave swept over India. Then it served as the summer resort of Mughal emperors. As the Mughal empire declined in power, the sikhs from Punjab established their rule over Kashmir.


 * The Dogra dynasty took over from them, and were controlling the state when India became a dominion within the British Commonwealth in 1947. Kashmir chose to stay independent, but when Pakistan attacked Kashmir, the king Harisingh signed a pact with India and Kashmir joined the Indian union.

A Pakistani version of events (edited from Talk page):


 * As we all know that all muslim majority nations were to be joined in Pakistan, the Hindu Raja double crossed the muslims of Kashmir & sold them to India, estimating amount is 5000 for each man in Kashmir. India sent its troops to Kashmir.


 * The army shed the blood of innocent muslims, raped women, killed children, It is believed that more than 80,000 kashmiris had been killed since 1947. & now when islamic groups are fighting & trying to force indian army out from the territory, India calls it terrorism.

---

History of Kashmir before British colonialism

 * to be written

should the writeup first be posted here or can it be directly appended to the article. Avataran

Kashmir under British rule

 * to be written

A lot of stuff could be written on this subject, when it is written, then provide headings for it. --maveric149 ---

VeryVerily, you might care to check out the facts before sanctimoniously assuming POVs on everything. It is a fact that Aksai Chin, occupied by China when it invaded India in 1962, is **not** the same as another portion of Jammu and Kashmir that was ceded to China by Pakistan.

It is also a fact that the accurate name of the entire region is JAMMU and KASHMIR, and not just "Kashmir", even though the latter is often used for brevity.

Frankly, the sanctimony and ignorance displayed by some self-appointed guardians of neutrality equipped with mere half-baked knowledge on an issue is rather frustrating. Have the decency to admit that your knowledge on an issue may be limited. -conradx

Aksai Chin was NOT given to China by Pakistan in 1959. Aksai Chin was occupied by China after it invaded India in 1962.

I believe that this article had a pro-Indian slant, I have tried to balance it out by including the views from both sides. There was also inaccurate information such as the claim that Pakistan blocked UN elections, it was actually India that blocked them, but this was due to the fact that Pakistan continues to occupy parts of Kashmir. India has claimed that it would hold elections once Pakistan vacated these territories, but since Pakistan has not done so, the elections have not occured. However, Pakistan continues to use this fact in it's own argument. Likewise, Aksai Chin was not given by Pakistan, only a small portion of it was, I have included a link to a reference for this.

DigiBullet 03:52, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Note that India does hold elections in Kashmir periodically to elect the State and Union Goverments. India has only refused to hold a UN-sponsored plebiscite. I have replaced "vote" by "plebiscite" in the article. Ambarish 04:14, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, and that is an important point. DigiBullet 04:03, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Someone put the following text into where it does not belong, so I am putting it here. --Henrygb 12:24, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Short history of Kashmir dispute By khalid azeem malgahni6 September 2002


 * ''1947: August 14/15. British India is partitioned into India and Pakistan as part of the independence process. Majority Muslim areas in the West (now all of Pakistan) and East (the place now called Bangladesh) form Pakistan. The British also allow the nominal rulers of several hundred "princely states," who were tax collectors for the British and served at British pleasure, to decide whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan. Pakistan demands Kashmir accede to it. The Hindu ruler of Kashmir does not make a choice. Kashmir has three major ethnic areas: Ladakh in the northwest, which is majority Buddhist; the Kashmir Valley (controlled by India) and the part now controlled by Pakistan, which is majority Muslim, and Jammu (in the south), which is majority Hindu. The overall majority is Muslim.1948: "Tribesmen" from Pakistan invade Kashmir with the support of the Pakistani government. The ruler of Kashmir asks India for help. India demands that Kashmir should accede to India first. The ruler agrees. India sends forces to Kashmir and the invasion is blocked. Kashmir is divided into a Pakistani controlled part and an Indian controlled part. This de facto partition continues to this date with the dividing line being known as the Line of Control.1948: India takes the Kashmir issue to the U.N. Security Council, which passes a resolution calling on Pakistan to do all it can "secure the withdrawal" of Pakistani citizens and "tribesmen" and asking that a plebiscite be held to determine the wishes of the people of Kashmir. Neither the force withdrawal nor the plebiscite has taken place.1962: India and China fight a border war. China occupies a part of Ladakh.1965: India and Pakistan fight a border war along the India-West Pakistan border and the Line of Control in Kashmir. U.N. brokered cease fire and withdrawal to pre-war lines affirmed by the leaders of the two countries at a 1966 summit meeting in Tashkent, USSR (now Toshkent, Uzbekistan).1970-1971: An election in (East and West) Pakistan results in an overall majority for an East Pakistani party, which is ethnically mainly Bengali. The Pakistani military refuses to allow the Parliament to convene. East Pakistanis demand autonomy, then independence in the face of brutal repression by the Pakistani military. Guerilla warfare ensues. About ten million refugees stream into India from East Pakistan. India also provides sanctuary to Bangladeshi guerillas. Pakistan attacks airfields in India and Indian-controlled Kashmir. India strikes back in West Pakistan and also intervenes in the East on the side of the Bangladeshis. The U.S., in a "tilt" towards Pakistan, sends a nuclear-armed aircraft carrier, the Enterprise, and its battlegroup, to the region, in an implicit nuclear threat to India (which influences nuclear politics of India in favor of nuclear testing). Pakistan loses the war on both fronts and Bangladesh becomes independent.1972: India and Pakistan sign a peace accord, known as the Simla (or Shimla) agreement, according to which both sides agree "to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them." Both countries agree that they will not unilaterally try to alter the Line of Control in Kashmir.1974: India tests a nuclear device. Pakistan accelerates its nuclear weapons program.1980s: U.S. supports Islamic resistance to Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and also the dictatorship of Zia-ul-Haq in Pakistan, which promotes Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan.Late 1980s: There is a state-level election in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir. There is evidence of fraud. Militancy rises in Kashmir. In 1989, the Soviets quit Afghanistan. Islamic militants from outside South Asia now become engaged in Kashmir, with the support of the Pakistani government. The violence in Kashmir becomes more dominated by foreign fighters and by religious fundamentalism. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Hindu fundamentalism begins to become more powerful as a political force in India.1990s: Violence intensifies in Kashmir. Islamic militants carry out ethnic cleansing in the Kashmir Valley, terrorizing non-Muslims, mainly Kashmiri pundits, causing large numbers of people to flee, mainly to Jammu. Pakistan supports the cross border infiltration. The Indian military responds with repression to the terrorism, foreign infiltration, and the domestic insurgency, which are now all mixed up. There are serious human rights abuses on all sides.1998: A coalition led by the Hindu-fundamentalist party, the BJP, comes to power in India. India and Pakistan carry out nuclear weapons tests and declare themselves nuclear weapon states. Pakistan announces that it may, under certain circumstances, use nuclear weapons first to neutralize India's conventional superiority, making reference to NATO's Cold War doctrine of potential first use in case of a European war with the Soviets. India says it will not use nuclear weapons first.1999: Indian Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, travels to Lahore, Pakistan for a peace meeting with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. There is great hope for peace. Three months later Pakistan-based militants invade the Kargil area in Indian-controlled Kashmir, with the support of the military. A military confrontation, with the possibility of nuclear war, ensues. Nawaz Sharif travels to Washington and President Clinton convinces him to withdraw Pakistani forces from Kargil. Confrontation ends. Nawaz Sharif is overthrown in a military coup led by General Musharraf, one of the architects of the Kargil war. (Musharraf proclaims himself President of Pakistan in the year 2000.)September 11, 2001: Well-known tragic events in the United States. Terrorist attacks kill about 3,000 people.October 1, 2001: A terrorist attack on the Kashmir state legislature in Srinagar. 38 people are killed.October 7, 2001: U.S. launches a war in Afghanistan, under the rubric of the War on Terrorism. President Musharraf becomes a U.S. ally and allows Pakistan to become a base of operations for the United States. Al Qaeda, Taliban, and their supporters in Pakistan feel severe pressure.December 13, 2001: A terrorist attack on India's Parliament. Fourteen people (including five attackers, as well as security guards and two civilians) are killed.Aftermath of December 13: India mobilizes and moves hundreds of thousands of soldiers to the border with Pakistan, including the Line of Control in Kashmir. The danger of conventional and nuclear war rises.May 14, 2002 to date (early Sept 2002): A terrorist attack on families of Indian servicemen. More than 30 people killed. India threatens to retaliate. Pakistan makes implicit threats of nuclear weapons use in case of Indian attack. Peak of the conventional and nuclear confrontation reached in May-June 2002. Greatest threat of nuclear war since the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. U.S. troops and war strategy in the region imperiled. U.S. shuttle diplomacy defuses the immediate crisis as Pakistan promises to end cross border infiltration. India does not retaliate. Tensions remain high and the threat of war and nuclear weapons use persists. Other''

'''Does anyone really know why we are fighting for Kashmir?After so many years of bloodshed and loss of innocent lives can the people of these two countries not start to think differently?That would change the mindset of the politicians faster than anything else.Let us not forget that those in power will always go with the general perceptions of their people.If we collectively change our thinking,influence our media,who knows,our future generations may thank us for having removed the haterd and prejudice from their psyche. We are two poor countries whose meagre resources could be much better utilised rather than wasting them in arming ourselves against people who once were part of a single nation.Let's start thinking differently!'''

Map issues
removed:
 * The current map of India (a CIA map)...

What "current map of India"? Don't stick in random references onto this page. If the map is not posted here, then assume it doesn't exist. Otherwise, you just confuse readers. --Jiang 21:14, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Maharaja Hari Singh was a Sikh. That is absolute truth and factual. Some people keep changing him to either Hindu or Dogra which is entirely incorrect.
 * Kashmir, doesn't include Jammu and Ladakh as shown in the map .... please correct

--- ''First, the issue is princely state of Kashmir decided to stay as an independent country immediately after the 1947 devision, which was possible under the independence pact. But Jinnah, then ruler of pakistan, instigated by relegious extremists, sent Pakistani troups to Kashmir and the invaded pakistani army looted and raped kashmiri's (It is a replica of any muslim invasion- looting and raping). Kashmir sought help from then British empire, and later from Indian Union and joined Indian Union to protect its subject from brutal invasion of so called tribesman (disguised Pakistani Rangers.. evidences are plenty). Secondly, the concept of a minority (Sikh not Hindu) person to rule a majority (Muslim) is not acceptable to some relegious extremists shows the intolerance of Islamic Jihadis. Thirdly, kashmir is only a small part of Jammu and Kashmir; the territory of Ladakh, Jammu etc are not or rather were not muslim majority. Finally, Pakistan's attempt to make the Kashmir issue as a freedom struggle is mockery as India consist of second largest muslim population in the world and all that muslim's enjoy full freedom under a secular constitution; moreover it is a largest democracy in the world. It is also important to note that three major political figures in India today are from minority and not from Hindu relegious background (A.P.J. Abdul Kalam- President of India (a true Muslim), Manmohan Sing -Prime Minister(Sikh), Sonia Gandhi -Chief of ruling party (a Italian born catholic). So it is not the matter of relegious freedom; but to create another taliban or mullocracy for the benefit of handful relegious extremists/terrorists)''