Talk:Kerry Wendell Thornley

Activity
Wow, this page has seen a lot of work since last i checked it. cool to see some interest. anybody wanna talk shop on a Greg Hill entry? from what i understand, gorightly's book is about the only dependable source of info. who's read it? Is there enough to paraphrase?

popefauve 10:37, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see a big hole in this article, between the 60s/Kennedy debacle and his death. Does anybody have any background on his general activities (writing and whatnot) during the 70s and 80s?

popefauve 14:24, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I recently posted a huge collection of his Decadent Worker series on ReHistory.com. See the External Links section.

stbob 22:02, 6 Feb 2005

I'm weirder than the next guy, but this sentence still makes no sense no matter how many attempts I make to parse it:

Incidentally, it was also at this time that he and Greg Hill—a bowling alley in their hometown of Whittier, California (a hometown shared by Richard Nixon). Brodo 19:44, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In the mid-nineties during one of his more gregarious periods, Thornley founded a pranking/media manipulation group in the Little Five Points district of Atlanta based around the concept of the Clown as sacred to society. As the pranks became more successful Thornley returned to his paranoid baseline and dissavowed any connection to the group.

Anonymous eyewitness

The narrative style of this article is shocking: what tense is the history supposed to be in? Why is Oswald referred to at one point as "Lee"? What principles were applied to determine which words are links? "Events, personages and phenomena"???? And where it refers to Thornley's "truthful denial" of any contact with Oswald since '59, "truthful" should really be dropped.

Anonymous Iwitness

I'm taking this line out of the final section. It's not that the fact itself doesnt belong, i just cant figure out how to make it fit right at the moment. popefauvexxiii 17:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC) ", but spending most of the remainder of his life in the 'Little Five Points' neighborhood of Atlanta, Georgia"

Independent verification
Much of this looks to need independent verification. To me it reads like a reinvention of the past that someone who has created their own religion might write about themselves - but are there any facts there ?

The reference to his 1965 book "Oswald" takes us to a general Oswald page - did the book actually exist ?

-- Beardo 04:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

yup. Oswald, ASIN: B0007DYIU8 popefauvexxiii 05:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Do some web searches. Someone is selling the book on amazon.com for $95.  His books and the creation of Discordianism, his Marine service, the Warren Commission testimony, accusations by Jim Garrison that he was involved in the JFK assassination and coverup, are all verifiable.


 * It is also verifiable that he made the claims of having participated in MK-ULTRA, dicussed assassinating JFK with E. Howard Hunt, and that he was a Vril. IOW, the article appears accurate.
 * Naysayer 08:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm really bad with wikicode, but I think this article need the "this article may contain original research" sign, In the opening sentence, when it describes the movements with which he has identified, there are no citations for any of them, the same happens later when the article mentions his millitary life and his relationship with Greg Hill, all this needs verification, same with the sentence "While aboard a troopship returning to the United States from duty in Japan (some time after the two men parted ways as a result of routine reassignment), Thornley read of Oswald's autumn 1959 defection to the Soviet Union in the US military newspaper Stars and Stripes." there are several more instances throughout the article.--Angry Mushi 05:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angry Mushi (talk • contribs)
 * I added an inline citation (p. 109 from the Warren Commission's report) for the last sentence you specified. I'm not sure what you meant about the first sentence, which carries 5 in-line citations from 2 sources. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Seminal
As a matter of fact, linking the word "seminal" to the semen article IS my idea of a joke, and in this pope's opinion, a pretty damn funny one. i dont consider it to be innappropriate, considering that the word seminal is derived from the same root, and the association actually makes the statement MORE factual, as there are relatively few strictly discordian derivative works, subgenius stuff notwithstanding. feel free to de-link the term, I will happily wikify it back as many times as is necessary; however, please refrain from reverting my copyedits in the future. popefauvexxiii 05:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You're not specially privileged to have your bad jokes stay undeleted. DenisMoskowitz 20:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

But I am specially endowed with a terrifying and monstrous tenacity that strikes without pattern or warning. popefauvexxiii 00:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

cat:subgenii
i was not aware that thornley was affiliated with the church of the subgenius... im not saying he wasnt, but is this verifiable? discordianism ≠ subgenius. popefauvexxiii 19:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Kerry had a lot of material in the Stark Fist of Removal, and a picture of him f**king a chair on Ivan Stang's web site. Don't think the penis was real... Icarus 23 06:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The Sub-Genius name he used was Rev. Jesse Sump -- there's an article somewhere where Thornley listed all his pseudonyms. 24.176.10.125 (talk) 01:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I found the article and added the list . --Enric Naval (talk) 11:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anti-semitism?
The article makes the following claim: "For a time Thornley wrote a regular column in the zine Factsheet Five, until editor Mike Gunderloy stopped running his column due to Thornley's increasingly anti-semitic sentiments." As far as I can tell, Gunderloy never dropped Thornley's column. Gunderloy's last issue was Issue #44, August 1991, and Thornley's column appears in it. I wonder if someone might have confused Thornley with Garry de Young, whose column Gunderloy did drop after Issue #39 over anti-semitic remarks (directed toward, but not published in, Factsheet Five -- see Gunderloy's "Aeditorial", Issue #40, Feb. 1990). I will modify the statement in question to simply read "For a time, Thornley wrote a regular column in the zine Factsheet Five, until editor Mike Gunderloy stopped publishing the magazine." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Texas
Any particular reason this has been tagged as part of the WikiProject Texas project? The word "Texas" doesn't even appear in the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably either because of his involvement in the Warren Commission, or with the Church of the Subgenius, or both. wikipediatrix 02:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It was added because of Oswald, a "Bot" add. Now removed.  Jacksinterweb (talk) 16:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Activity
I know personally that Kerry lived in Atlanta, GA from 1995 until his death. He told me himself (and his son agreed) that he had had surgery and that had completely changed his paranoid outlook on many things, but I can find no online source to say this. The link to his "Kultcha" wall newspapers specifically states that he was living in Atlanta from 1980 onwards but I find no other verification for specificity. All reports that he died of a heart attack are easily verified but the "illness" mentioned cannot be found. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smibbo (talk • contribs) 16:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC). sorry forgot to sign Smibbo 16:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I noticed that the bit about livingin the little five points was removed. I don't like the fact that it's gone. does anybody know why it disappeared? Im guessing WP:NOR, can anybody make a citation for this fact? —PopeFauveXXIII 05:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * oh. i guess i did. heh. —PopeFauveXXIII 05:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

the illness is mentioned in Sondra London's obit, and the fact that the memorial was held the next morning suggests this his death was not sudden or surprising, unlike a heart attack out of nowhere. —PopeFauveXXIII 05:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

American writer category
Thornley needs to go into one of the American writers categories, but im at a loss for which. im thinking religious and/or political. Anybody got any better ideas? --popefauvexxiii 03:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Moving comment from talk page
I'm moving the following comment from the article to the talk page. Given the length of the comment it is better suited for the text page, and in any case the remainder of the article was hidden as part of the comment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "I'm gonna guess he was born in Whittier, and add that to the persondata template. If I'm wrong, please update the article and template with where he was actually born. Nixon was born and raised in Yorba Linda, CA; he received a B.A. from Whittier College." (added to article by Gregory k, 01:10 UTC, 16 May 2007.)

Military life
Pronoun reference in the following passage is unclear. I do not care enough to hunt down the details, but it does have obvious factual implications. Id est, did Oswald desert while aboard a troopship, or was it Thornley who was aboard a troopship when he read about Oswald?
 * Some time after the two men parted ways as a result of routine reassignment, Thornley read of Oswald's autumn 1959 defection to the Soviet Union in the US military newspaper Stars and Stripes while aboard a troopship returning to the United States from duty in Japan.

Paralipsis (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * fixed. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 02:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a real person

 * See also: Village pump (miscellaneous)

Kerry Wendell Thornley is a fictional creation of Robert Anton Wilson. There are no RELIABLE sources that he is a real person at all. This is an amusing work of fiction, perhaps a discussion of Kerry Wendell Thornley as a character or pen name of Robert anton Wilson would be a good place to start. If you can find a reliable source that Kerry Wendell Thornley is a real perosn thats fine. I'm begining to doubt if even Robert Anton Wilson is real. Rich.lewis (talk) 17:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * For what its worth, I knew Kerry Thornley fairly well in the late 1960s, and I can attest that he was a very real person. I corresponded with him extensively, and visited him and his wife at their home in Los Angeles. I also knew others who knew him personally, and still know Dr. Robert Newport, who attended High School with Kerry. Dr. Newport can be contacted at: theholodoc@gmail.com, and can provide more details about Kerry's family and early life than I can. --Ben Best (talk) 14:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we safely established his personhood; see the archived Village Pump discussion at Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_10. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you have some reason to believe the Gorightly and Biles books in the bibliography are unreliable? I've never seen any indication that Thornley is fictional. DenisMoskowitz (talk) 22:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I believe both sources are unreliable. The Gorightly book has a forward by Robert Anton Wilson, so it is naturally suspect, since as I assert Kerry Wendell Thornley is a fictional creation of Robert Anton Wilson.  The Biles book is published by Writers Club Press, which appears to me to be a self publishing clearing house.  That is, anyone can pay to have a book published.  I suspect the Biles is a Robert Anton Wilson fan who wrote the biography for his own amusement and for the amusement of other fans.  The fact that some fictional character in a book by Robert Anton Wilson should also be implicated in the Kenedy assassination is EXACTLY why I believe he is fictional.  Its just rediculous.  Rich.lewis (talk) 22:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * well, this is quite a revelation. most astonishing is the implication that Wilson was directly involved in the coverup of the Kennedy assassination, since his fictional character appears as a witness in the court transcripts. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 02:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt a REAL person with the name Kerry Wendell Thornley appears on the list of witnesses for the Warren Commision. What I doubt is that the unsubstatianted statements on THIS wikipedia page refer to that same person.  I suspect Robert Anton Wilson originally picked the name from the Warren Commision witness list as a name for his character and made the rest up.  Furthermore, NONE of the other facts in this article are substantiated, other than apparntely there WAS a real person named Kerry Wendell Thornley who appeared as a witness to the Warren Commision.  The fact that this same perosn was a childhood friend of Greg Hill, another fictional character, or that he wrtoe the Principia Discordia, are all completely unsubstantiated.  It is the blurring of fact and fiction which is especially disturbing in this article. This article is clearly a hoax, and the fact that Popefauvexxiii insists it is not also distrubing.  Rich.lewis (talk) 22:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * By the same token, do you have a reliable source that he is a fictional creation of Robert Anton Wilson? Thornley the writer, whether real or not, does at least have a history. I've got a stack of old magazines in which he's credited as a writer.  This article is not a hoax, there are indeed works credited to Thornley.  I wouldn't even rule out that he's a Monty Cantsin-type pseudonym, although this is the first time I've seen any suggestion like yours.  Hey, for that matter, I can't even be certain that any of you exist! ;-) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources for this not being a fictional invention by Robert Anton Wilson and a pair of writers friends of him. At the very least, the lead should be reworded to indicate that we are talking about a fictional character. The Warren report means nothing, since there is no link between the name and the article's subject --Enric Naval (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Note: I'm not opposed to keeping this article as a page on its own, as soon as it's stated that this a fictional character / nom-de-plume for Robert_Anton_Wilson. There is no source on the article that indicates otherwise in a reliable way. It Discordians want to make him look like a real person, then bad luck for them, and go do it somewhere else. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there a reliable source that does say he is an invention of Wilson's? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. I suggest we maintain the discussion in one place, I didn't know until last night that this is also listed at Village Pump. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Enric Naval suggests we maintain the discussion at Village Pump, so I will continue responding at that location. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The discussion has been quiet for a while, but just in case anyone still wonders... Here's a YouTube video of Kerry Thornley:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7O9COM13o&feature=related  24.112.147.72 (talk) 13:50, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

merges from Malaclypse the Younger and Gregory Hill (writer)‎
Greg Hill is just a nom de plume with no apparent notability or relevance (per WP:FICTION) that is not inherited from the writer using it, so it should be a section into Kerry's article.

About Malaclypse article..... I changed my opinion a bit, because it maybe has enough content to stand on its own, and enough relevance of its own. However, the fictionality should be stated clearly on the lead and its author stablished as Robert_Anton_Wilson, through his nom de plume Kerry. Stablishing on a section deep into the article that it is a spirit that went into Kerry's body is not enough. See Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction) and Guide_to_writing_better_articles --Enric Naval (talk) 14:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thorneley really did know Greg Hill
OK, I must admit now not only are Kerry Wendell Thornley and Greg Hill both real people, but they really did know eachother, and Thornely discusses in minutia the details of how he and Greg Moved from Whittier to Live in New Orleans in Febuary 1961, starting on page 32, here http://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/garr/grandjury/Thornley/html/Thornley_0016b.htm and here http://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/garr/grandjury/Thornley/html/Thornley_0018a.htm, Apparently Thorneley and Hill were roomates in the French quarter while Thornely worked on the Lost Warriors. This is from his deposition to the New Orleans Parish Grand Jury, regarding an investigation of the Kendey assassination. I guess truth really is stranger than fiction. I'm still not convinced that as the Principia claims they went on to write the Principia Discordia itself. But, if so the Principia claims, then so must it be true. Rich.lewis (talk) 22:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please add this update to the Village Pump discussion, as per Enric Naval's earlier request. Thanks. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, so Thornley and Hill ARE real, but the way this article is written really encouirages the misunderstanding that he is some kind of fantasy character. I think at the least it needs a re-write, moving references to discordianism to the part of the article which deals with his later life, AFTER the events of the Warren commision.  I also think the emphasis should be placed on Thornley as a witness before the Warren commission and author of "The Idle Warriors" and other works biographing Oswald.  I think that IS more significant than any work he MAY have done on Discordianism (which frankly I still doubt).  I also think that, after reading the court transcripts, the character of both Oswald and Thornley are compelling.  Just his testimony at the Warren Commission shows Oswald and Thornley both as thoughtful, literary people who were seriously out of place in the disfunctional beauracracy of the USMC.  I really think more emphasis should be placed on this picture, rather than mixing in all this nonsense from the Principia.  Even if the Principia WAS the subject of his life's work, I think it is more important to look at Thornley as a real person than to blur him with statements he MAY have made in a work of fiction.  Rich.lewis (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you put this also on village pump discussion? . My excuses if you put it already there. Also, if you agree that the village pump discussion can be closed can you state it there so we can come back to talk page? It's just a formality --Enric Naval (talk) 17:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

fact tags
The places where the article states "Thornley came to believe xxx", are probably supported by what he wrote on the Principia Discordia book (we are assuming here that he actually wrote the book, because of lack of sources establishing that he didn't), or in statements on forewords of his books. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And I remove them. All this stuff is in the links, and in time ill get to proper citation, but for now its cluttering up the article. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 10:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a real person?
At first I just thought these people were idiots. But I found out what's going on. Discordians themselves, in some twisted logic, are actually the ones suggesting that they are lying about Thornley being a real person. That's rubbish though. I remember seeing this interview with him on tv and I scrambled to go find it. Maybe someone can fit it into the page.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2nAGXmK4hk&feature=player_embedded

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2exmh69Big&feature=player_embedded

You can also pick up his book at the library. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.57.69.136 (talk) 09:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Award
An editor removed reference to the Order of the Pineapple, making the statement "Removed reference to Order of the Pineapple. This was created after Kerry Thornley's death."

As his Wikipedia article states, Kerry Wendell Thornley died in 1998. An Order of the Pineapple certificate dated 1994 is featured on the kerrythornley.com website at http://www.kerrythornley.com/misc/pineapple.html. The Order of the Pineapple website (with which I am admittedly somewhat associated) at op.loveshade.org says the award was first presented in 1982. While not an "official" source, the Order of the Pineapple Wiki at pineapple.fandom.com includes photos and statements from people named to the order who were involved before 1998.

Therefore I have restored the reference to the Order. Alden Loveshade (talk) 23:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)