Talk:Killing of Michelle Go

Requested move 27 January 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. With the likely possibility that this may be moved again to Killing of Michelle Go or Murder of Michelle Go, depending on where the evidence points in upcoming news coverage, per WP:DEATHS (see the flowchart) (closed by non-admin page mover) ASUKITE  14:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Michelle Alyssa Go → Death of Michelle Go – Her middle name is not needed. The AFD result was, that if the article is kept, it should be moved to a page about her death. -- Jax 0677 (talk) 13:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, and article seems to be mainly about her death. -- The Tips of  Apmh  14:21, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 00:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. She was pushed to her death by someone, so per Naming conventions (violence and deaths) the article should '''move to Killing of Michelle Go. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 *  Reply - I personally think that "Death" is more neutral, but I do not oppose "Killing" or "Murder" once proper evidence is in place. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Support. I'd also support "Killing of Michelle Go", and "Murder of Michelle Go" once a murder conviction has passed. GBFEE (talk) 20:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support as the incident is about Go's death, not Go herself. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:29, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. I prefer Killing of Michelle Go, per WP:DEATHS and because this event was noteworthy due to the fact that she was killed, not merely the fact that she died. Still, Death of Michelle Go (or anything similar) is better than the current title. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Justin Go" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Justin Go and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 29 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Happy editing-- IAm Chaos  08:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

"Alleged"
Jax 0677, I know what the guidance on "alleged" says, but I think you went overboard with the word in the page. There hasn't been any doubt cast on the fact that the named perpetrator pushed Go, and he did admit to doing it. Although he is mentally ill, there's no evidence that someone else pushed Go and he's just saying he did it.

From a purely grammatical standpoint, "who was allegedly pushed to her death" makes it sound like she may not have been pushed to her death. GBFEE (talk) 20:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 *  Reply - Let's get some buyin before we remove "alledgedly" from those paragraphs. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:05, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "Allegedly" usually isn't in the resources reporting on this topic, especially when saying who pushed Go and that the perpetrator was harassing another woman right before he committed the crime. That's your editorial decision. Having it there after every other sentence makes for a distracting read. I didn't suggest all of the uses be removed. You could still fix the first sentence by rearranging it, or splitting it into two, while you wait for that "buy-in." GBFEE (talk) 20:40, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it is appropriate to use "alleged" in connection with a criminal act that a person has been arrested and charged with. So saying the perpetrator "allegedly pushed" the victim is correct because that is the criminal act that results in him being charged with murder. Once charged he is presumed innocent until found guilty by the court system. His actions are called "alleged" because they are the allegations of what the perpetrator did that accompany the charge in court. The court hearing determines if what has been alleged actually happened, is a criminal act beyond reasonable doubt, and such a finding is proven once the court delivers its verdict. At which time the word "alleged" could be omitted. By analogy, other criminal activity described generally for which charges might be laid in the future could also be described as alleged, too, as there is is an element of doubt about criminality. So saying the charged perpetrator had been allegedly harassing others is valid, too, as this could also be contested in court. However, a specific statement from a witness about her experience is evidence as it is reported and attributed to a specific person, even though they might remain unnamed. Such statements about what happened need not be described as allegations. Although saying the experiences are criminal behaviour is an allegation. The issue is not that what is being said is not true but that the court has to hear the evidence to decide on the allegations being made about criminality. Hopefully this makes sense. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Cameron Dewe, I'm in no need of your thoughts about how the criminal justice system works. I think you need to re-read where I acknowledged the guidance on "alleged" and said, "I didn't suggest all of the uses be removed." I think you also need to consider grammar because she was not "a 40-year-old Asian-American woman who was allegedly pushed." She was a 40-year-old Asian-American woman who was pushed. The first sentence still needs to be reworded, and there are Wikipedia criminal articles where the criminal is awaiting a trial or sentencing and "allegedly" is not used every other sentence. GBFEE (talk) 21:12, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you also need to consider the guidance on people accused of a crime. If you are going to follow the word "pushed" by naming the perpetrator charged with causing Go's death (because it is a murder charge) then you need to use "allegedly" until such time as the perpetrator is convicted of the crime. Conviction is Wikipedia's standard of proof when establishing cause in violent deaths and Death of person articles when murder is at question. If you want to omit the word "allegedly" you also need to omit the perpetrator's name and the criminal act of pushing from the first sentence. You could state the objective fact that Go fell off the platform onto the tracks and was in the path of a moving train. That would be accurate and factual.  The question at any trial will be: Was Go pushed? That is for the court to determine beyond reasonable doubt. Because nobody has been convicted of that act of pushing, yet, I think you need accompany it with "allegedly", since, as the guidance says, there is a person "awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial;" - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:19, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Cameron Dewe, you mentioned removing the perpetrator's name and said I also need to consider the guidance on people accused of a crime. I considered the guidance on names when dealing with crime. You don't seem to be hearing me. Does it take exerting much effort to reword the first sentence so that it says "Michelle Alyssa Go (December 29, 1981 – January 15, 2022) was a 40-year-old Asian-American woman who was pushed into the path of an oncoming subway train, which caused her death. The alleged assailant is Martial Simon, who was subsequently arrested and charged with second-degree murder."? Does "allegedly" need to be used after every other sentence once "allegedly" has been established and when resources don't hedge on who the culprit is? We're not going to say she "fell off the platform onto the tracks" and omit that she was pushed. All of the resources say she was pushed. If she's notable, it's because she was pushed and murdered, not merely because she died. And this is why Rreagan007 and Extraordinary Writ supported moving the page to "Killing of Michelle Go" in the move request. What I proposed is a concern for grammar and flow. See how you removed "allegedly" here and reworded things? That's much better than "allegedly", "allegedly", "allegedly". None of the rule or suggestion pages you cited mean we must sacrifice legibility and insert "allegedly" all over the page. GBFEE (talk) 21:08, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that wording is better because it connects the allegation to the assailant and treat the "push" as a fact. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:58, 6 February 2022 (UTC)


 *  Comment - I have just edited the article per WP:BRD, as I think we must always err on the side of caution when writing a biography article about a person who has been accused. Template +rb says "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous or harmful". --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Jax 0677, the first paragraph is different now than what I had up there. I suggested: "Michelle Alyssa Go (December 29, 1981 – January 15, 2022) was a 40-year-old Asian-American woman who was pushed into the path of an oncoming subway train, which caused her death. The alleged assailant is Martial Simon, who was subsequently arrested and charged with second-degree murder." So "alleged" was in my version. What I did was move "allegedly" out of the first sentence so that Wikipedia wasn't saying she was allegedly pushed and that she allegedly died by an oncoming subway train. The first paragraph now says "allegedly intentionally pushed". So I'm not sure what WP:BRD you're calling on. Your BRD comment seems to be in response to Zedembee, who you are in an edit war with about a sentence lower on the page. I agree with Zedembee. Do you have any resources that dispute that she was pushed and say that she instead fell onto the tracks? GBFEE (talk) 22:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * See the section that follows this one about "pushed to her death"? GBFEE (talk) 22:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 *  Reply - My BRD comment is in response to Zedembee. Per WP:SUSPECT, I am of the school of thought, that until there is a conviction, that we err on the side of caution, and say allegedly pushed. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:19, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Jax 0677, WP:SUSPECT doesn't mean that we call into question the fact of how a person died. It's a fact that Go was pushed to her death. No reputable media outlet disputes this. Quoting Cameron Dewe above, "GBFEE: Yes, I think that wording is better because it connects the allegation to the assailant and treat the 'push' as a fact." Quoting Cameron Dewe below, "In this case it wasn't the fall onto the tracks that caused death but the oncoming train that struck Go immediately she was on the tracks, with insufficient time to recover from the fall and safely move out of the way. The death was caused by the victim being struck by the train, not by the push itself. However, the push is still the criminal act." Quoting Zedembee from the edit history, "The original sentence reads as though what is alleged is that she was pushed. In fact, that she was pushed is fact. The aspect of her death that has not attained the status of fact (and probably never will) is the identity of the pusher. The conviction is irrelevant. The FACT is that she was pushed by [someone]. The identity of that someone is the question the conviction will settle. It will not negate nor confirm that was she pushed, which has already been established in the realm of fact. (See multiple reporting cited in the References.)" We would do the same if she was shot to death. We wouldn't say she was allegedly shot to death. But we would say that "this suspect allegedly shot her". You should, at the very least, change the first paragraph back to the version I chose, which uses "alleged" for the suspect, not to challenge how she died. GBFEE (talk) 22:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I have been offline. My issue is that the push itself is *not* alleged. It is the identity of the pusher that is alleged. The language to which I objected muddled those two things and introduced inaccuracy into the sentence. The example of the hypothetical shooting is a good one, in my opinion. We don't say a victim is "allegedly shot to death" if the identity of the shooter is not yet legally established. We say the victim is "shot to death" and "it is alleged that the killer is the Joker", etc. It is widely reported as fact that Ms. Go was pushed. To write "allegedly pushed" undermines the facts and implies without evidence that eg. she stumbled. @Jax 0677 in his/her/their concern to be fair to the alleged perpetrator is subsequently being unfair to (i) facts and (ii) the victim. That is to go too far, in my view. Zedembee (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Zedembee, hi. You might want to say something in the RFC discussion below. GBFEE (talk) 21:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Heya. Thanks; will do. Zedembee (talk) 18:47, 4 July 2022 (UTC)


 *  Reply - I am trying to play this as safe as possible, and have listed this at WP:CR. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Your late reply is not helpful. You are "playing it safe" where there is absolutely no need, or obligation as far as Wikipedia's guidance and policies go, to do so. Wikipedia should not be saying that Go was allegedly pushed. She was pushed. What is alleged is who pushed her. Above, you suggest to wait for some "buyin". You got it. Multiple editors have said how "alleged" and "allegedly" are best used for this topic. If you were going to ignore our voices and do what you preferred anyway, you should not have suggested waiting for other comments. With the way you talk on this issue, it feels like there is a communication barrier. I won't argue with you any longer about this topic, but I will object to your listing at WP:CR, as it is non-standard to close a normal talk page discussion. GBFEE (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 *  Reply - I am going to allow an independent party to resolve this issue. Jax 0677 (talk) 23:02, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Note I've struck GBFEE's edits per WP:SOCKSTRIKE. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:36, 23 July 2022 (UTC) lorem ipsum}}

Pushed to her death
The lead section says the victim, Go, was "... pushed to her death ..." but this vague statement fails to mention that the death was due to the victim being pushed onto railway tracks and "into the path of the oncoming R train" which presumably struck her, fatally. This is not to belittle the push, which is the criminal act that preceded the fatal impact, and made Go's death inevitable, but about being precise about the cause of death. Usually, by saying one is "pushed to death" it is the impact from the fall as a result of the push that causes death. In this case it wasn't the fall onto the tracks that caused death but the oncoming train that struck Go immediately she was on the tracks, with insufficient time to recover from the fall and safely move out of the way. The death was caused by the victim being struck by the train, not by the push itself. However, the push is still the criminal act. I have reworded the lead sentence to say "... pushed, by Simon Martial, into the path of an oncoming subway train, which caused her death." - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:49, 5 February 2022 (UTC) (edited and clarified) - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:50, 6 February 2022 (UTC))

Racially-motivated?
Konoron, it hasn't been determined that the crime was racially-motivated. It's more likely that the crime was committed because the man is mentally ill. I know someone could also speculate that it was a combination of mental illness and racial discrimination. But is the racial discrimination angle still being looked into? GBFEE (talk) 20:31, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

RFC: Should forms of the word "alleged" be used prior to a conviction to describe the "push" that may have caused the death of Michelle Go?
Per WP:ACCUSED, should forms of the word "alleged" be used prior to a conviction to describe the "push" that may have caused the death of Michelle Go? Jax 0677 (talk) 23:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I suggest that those who participate in this check out the prior "Alleged" discussion. The issue isn't with using "alleged" because the accused hasn't been convicted yet. It's with using "alleged" for how the victim died. She died because someone pushed her into the path of an oncoming train. This is reported as the cause of the death in all resources about this topic, and it isn't disputed. Using "alleged" for the person who is accused of pushing her is not at dispute, because no one has a problem with saying "The alleged assailant is Martial Simon", which is what the page said after agreement for how to use "alleged". If this topic was about a mass shooting, we wouldn't say that the victims were allegedly shot. We would report that they were shot. We wouldn't say they allegedly died. We would say that they died. But we would say that "this suspect allegedly shot them". The same should be done for this article. That is what a recent dispute at this article was about. GBFEE (talk) 20:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * "Allegedly" modifies "intentionally" as the nearest phrase. Since the sentence is long, this might be read ambiguously. "Woman who was pushed, allegedly intentionally, into the path of" would be clearer. Senorangel (talk) 23:25, 1 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Senorangel' proposal - The push is not alleged. The intentionality is alleged, and the person accused is alleged, but that the push itself happened is an attested and reliably cited fact.  Using alleged for "intentional" is appropriate, but I can understand that the current sentence is slightly ambiguous as to how much of it is alleged, so encapsulating the alleged portion would make it clearer. Fieari (talk) 06:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Proposal - I agree with @Fieari's reasoning (see my comments posted above for full picture of my position, if necessary). Here's the language I would suggest for maximum clarity: "At around 9:40 am, Go was pushed onto the tracks from behind into the path of the oncoming R train. It is alleged that a 61-year-old homeless African American man named Martial Simon pushed her." Then the article continues as now.
 * Summary of my position and proposed edit: The push is fact; the identity of the pusher is alleged. To make this distinction super-clear, separate the two into different sentences.
 * Zedembee (talk) 18:54, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, Zedembee. It seems you all have something that will work. No objections from me. GBFEE (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * While I'm online (rare), I've amended the language as proposed... Should other editors disagree, Undo my edit and continue the discussion... y'all have heard my position on this by now. Happy Fourth to all... Zedembee (talk) 20:49, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I also agree with this edit you made. One time (see above) that an editor added it is because of the idea that the crime was racially-motivated. I think it makes more sense to mention Go's race because of the initial speculation that she was pushed because she was Asian, which is in the article. GBFEE (talk) 22:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, and if others want to know what Zedembee changed, it's this. The user didn't alter the introduction. GBFEE (talk) 23:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Am I missing something? He admitted to pushing her, did he not? There will never be a trial as he was deemed unfit to stand trial and resides in a psychiatric facility, so I don't think there's a need to worry that Wikipedia will be in contempt of court or something. We can state in Wikipedia's voice that he pushed her, we don't need to say it is "alleged" that he pushed her. What is alleged is the state of mind necessary for the crime of murder, not the fact of the matter that he pushed her. Endwise (talk) 14:48, 17 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Use ‘alleged’. Simply as conveying the fact that allegations have been made.  You can play with the rest of the phrasing, e.g. ‘alleged caused her death by pushing’  but one should generally keep the ‘alleged’ unless there is a conviction.  In this case, the man was declared mentally unfit so there is no conviction and no decision that he was competent enough to have an intent.  Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Senorangel' proposal. That Martial pushed her is not alleged, it is a fact of the matter which Martial himself admitted. What is alleged is the intentionality (or recklessness) needed for the murder charge he faced to apply. Endwise (talk) 14:51, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note I've struck GBFEE's edits per WP:SOCKSTRIKE. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2022 (UTC)