Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Archive 3

Photo archive
The Hull City Council photo archive web site is currently off line and I have commented out the link in the article, It can be restored when the site is back on line or a new system is enabled. Keith D (talk) 11:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Marvell
The article is a good read, but why no mention of Andrew Marvell, one of the country's great poets? His most famous poem mentions the Humber and he's even got a statue in Hull. He was Hull's MP too, and a large number of his parliamentary letters are preserved in Hull.

It might also be worth mentioning that two of the supreme ecclesiastical buildings of England - Beverley Minster (very close) and Patrington, the finest decorated Gothic church in the country, are near the city.

Bandalore (talk) 03:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Marvel is an interesting contrast to Philip Larkin. Larkin is extensively celebrated within the city and yet is famously quoted as calling Hull, "the arse-hole of Great Britain". He also has strong ties to the Conservative Party though Hull was (and is) an incredibly socialist city. Andrew Marvell does have the honour of having a local school named after him, recognition that Larkin failed to achieve.

Cookey83 16:17, 29 January 2010 (GMT)

I've never heard Larkin quoted saying that before. I'm sure most British cities were pretty grim in the 1950's though - especially those such as Hull that had spent much of the preceding decade being bombed to smithereens. As for the city being an 'incredibly socialist city' - the conservatives were the ruling party until a major, nationally important and widely reported by election in 1966. In the last decade, the ruling party in the guildhall has been the lib dems.

Anyway, on the subject of Andrew Marvell - he is indeed a worthy and important part of Hull's history and as such is included in the article.

Radiator4612 (talk)

In his private letters Larkin made many negative comments about Hull, in one memorable case calling the city 'the arsehole of the East Riding (Selected Letters, 403) and its University students, of which I was one at the time, 'little subsidised socialist sods' (SL, 530). Quote from hereHarkey (talk) 19:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Distance to the North Sea
This is (according to Google Earth measuring tool) 10.5 miles as the crow flies or 25 miles sailing down the Humber.As not many crows read Wikipeda, I think we'll stick with 25 miles.--Harkey Lodger (talk) 14:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Reputation section
This section was pulled as a result of comments on the GA review and has been placed here as a holding place. Some of the material may be useful to put in other sections.

Hull's history is that of a solidly industrial city, with working-class sensibilities. Like many other cities and towns, it has suffered the negative effects of Britain's transition to a post-industrial society. These effects include, among other things, a decaying infrastructure, a diminished industrial base, and areas of urban blight. These factors contribute to Hull having the second highest level of deprivation in England, after Liverpool. Hull was named "the worst place to live in Britain" in the Channel 4 programme "The Best and Worst Places to Live in Britain" and the "second worst place" in 2007, after being absent from the 2006 list of worst places to live.

In spite of these issues, many of the city's residents are very proud of Hull, its history, and its traditions, using such terms as "underrated", "thriving", "fantastic", and "wonderful" to describe their home. Many residents and visitors also credit it for its down-to-earth, working class-attitude and its friendly nature. The University of Hull has a reputation of being one of the friendliest universities in the United Kingdom. Hull's national reputation is also reflected by the positive striving of the Council to improve the city's welfare. However, the city has had poor performance in terms of most socioeconomic indicators in comparison with the rest of the UK. Hull City Council was designated as the UK's worst performing authority in both 2004 and 2005, which the Council are trying to improve with its new £200 million St. Stephen's project. Hull is seen as something of a national oddity: a large city, in the midst of a very rural part of Yorkshire, at the very edge of the nation. The rest of the East Riding has always looked upon Hull as a very different entity, and government decisions have taken this into account with things such as post codes, telephone networks and other regional groupings.

Economy section
This table was pulled from the Economy section as a result of comments on the GA review and has been placed here as a holding place.

Below is a table of trends of regional gross value added for Hull at current basic prices.
 * Components may not sum to totals due to rounding
 * Includes hunting and forestry
 * Includes energy and construction
 * Includes financial intermediation services indirectly measured

Arms of Kingston Upon Hull
I think it will be great to find and add Hull coat of arms. As for example featured in York article, the Coat of arms of York. --Cliff (talk) 19:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Major overhaul as per GA review

 * Altered the order of the sections.


 * Put religious sites in Geography


 * Deleted Climate sub section heading


 * Added some refs and altered others for more reliability.


 * Expanded Demography.


 * Condensed Dialect and accent.


 * Full stops removed from image captions.


 * Some passive passages revised.


 * Substituted US for America in one instance (others were official titles).


 * Added scroll facility to References section.


 * Preliminary copyedit.

--Harkey (talk) 07:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi I think that you will find that the scrollable references is not allowed for accessibility reasons. Though I have had a look at the WP:MOS and cannot put my finger on the bit that says this should not be used, I knew it last year when I needed it. Keith D (talk) 10:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have removed the scrolling references & done some minor copy-edits. I have re-jigged the start of demographics section as did not read right. There is a reference missing for the rented houses figures as I could not spot them in the census page so did not add the 2001 census reference. Keith D (talk) 12:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I added a few refs and removed more full stops from images. Sorry about the scrolling ref section. I guess it doesn't work on some browsers.--Harkey (talk) 16:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I thought that I had gone through removing the full stops, but obviously not. While you were away I did go through Economy section doing some re-jigs. The bit

"The 50 stall indoor Trinity Market is also due to be renovated. Between April 2006 and 2007 shops in Hull took £484 million ($991M) a rise of £13M over the previous 12 month period."
 * needs a look at. The first sentence is a bit out of place and needs a reference if kept, I was thinking may be we do not need that now. The second part is referenced by the dead link and is probably a bit dated now, I would think that we need to get more up to date figures or at least a new reference. Probably needs go go higher up the section to show the importance of shopping to the economy, probably before launch into the shopping centre regeneration. Keith D (talk) 19:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't find any substitute for the dead link. I did find this which I haven't ever come across before and which may help to expand some sections.--Harkey (talk) 19:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just found this link which may be of use as a source for the article. Keith D (talk) 16:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the moves suggested above on 19:02, 6 July 2008 should be OK. What needs to be done next? Guidelines suggest:-

# 1 Article structure example for a U.K. settlement


 * 1.1 Infobox*


 * 1.2 Lead*


 * 1.3 History


 * 1.4 Governance


 * 1.5 Geography


 * 1.6 Demography


 * 1.7 Economy


 * 1.8 Landmarks


 * 1.9 Transport


 * 1.10 Education


 * 1.11 Religious sites


 * 1.12 Sports


 * 1.13 Public services


 * 1.14 Notable people


 * 1.15 See also


 * 1.16 References


 * 1.17 External links

# 2 Optional headings


 * 2.1 Industry and commerce


 * 2.2 Culture


 * 2.3 Politics


 * 2.4 Media


 * 2.5 Invention and discovery


 * 2.6 Future plans


 * 2.7 Cultural references


 * 2.8 Filmography


 * 2.9 Community facilities


 * 2.10 Culture and community

Do we need to add or rejig any, please? --Harkey (talk) 18:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably the only one that is missing at this stage is Landmarks, which could be a good addition. Religious sites could be used for the bits on Churches but was removed after previous review comments. Keith D (talk) 18:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just looked at the guidelines for "Services". Maybe we need to expand on that a bit. e.g.hospitals, refuse, water and sewerage.
 * Yes, I have that in the to-do box, if you want to do something now then fine go ahead. Keith D (talk) 20:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are plenty of landmarks in the images but not very much in the text. Are the docks still in the town centre or am I out of date?--Harkey (talk) 19:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The marina covers one of the city centre docks and the Princes Quay is built over another. Most of the dock area is now to the east of the river Hull extending out to Salt End. Keith D (talk) 20:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Balance
As you say, all the major topics that are listed above are given some coverage in the article. Having spent the morning researching services, I can see that adding greatly to this area would throw the balance of this article at the moment. Water and sewerage is interesting (the low lying land and an entirely pumped system) and would almost merit its own article (what with the floods and projected rises in sea level as well). Refuse and recycling is fairly straightforward. Gas and electricity is difficult - how to say who actually supplies privatised energy services. Hospitals are not bad to give a mention to. I'll try to write a paragraph or two later, at the weekend maybe.--Harkey (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Found it !, the electricity problem answered. I should have gone to Wikipedia first Distribution Network Operator.--Harkey (talk) 12:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Economy
I find the following line contentious:

"The economy of Hull was built on seafaring"

Whilst Hull's economic history as a major port is undoubtedly, obviously linked to seafaring I believe that this rather underplays the importance of a wide variety of manufacturing and processing industries providing employment and income to the city throughout it's history, as the home of Reckitt and Coleman, Smith and Nephew, Rank Hovis and latterly a large caravan manufacturing industry etc. Added to this, the River Hull industries and their associations with inland waterways have arguably played as much a part of Hull's industrial and mercantile history as her exploits on the high seas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiator4612 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Some of the names you give are noted in the following paragraph, but as yet there is no real mention of the River Hull industries and the part played by the links to the inland waterways either by the River Hull or the Humber estuary. If you can find some reference material to cover this then I would suggest adding some details. The section needs some expansion from the comments on the recent review. Keith D (talk) 17:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the operative word is "was". Perhaps we might be able to change the sentence to make it clear that this is a statement of the past situation. If we can get any reliable sources of information to help expand the section on the economy, that would be really great.--Harkey (talk) 17:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As a few suggestions of typically (but not exclusively) River Hull based industries, try Oilseed crushing (for linseed oil and cattle feed cake) - KH was for long the worlds biggest centre of this industry - the oilseed came along in time to take over from the declining whale oil industry - that was once another big one on the Hull riverside, based on KH's function as a major (in fact for a time the country's greatest) whaling port, though all that's covered in the maritime museum in the old Dock Office.

Paint manufacturing (again Hull one of the country's major centres), originally based on the happy combination of Derbyshire lead (which was transhipped through the port in great quantities) and linseed oil.

Boat repairing, and even building, in various small River Hull yards.

Roperies.

Sailcloth (?).

Timber yards - for a long time KH second only to London (Surrey Docks) for timber imports - some of this was along the lower riverside, but most around Vic Dock/Citadel site, Queens Dock N side and later Hedon Road.

Gas, electricity.

Less successful but for a time locally important industries such as sugar refining (couldnt compete with London, Bristol and Liverpool which got their feedstock direct from the Caribbean etc - most of KH sugar houses' supplies had to be transhipped and brought up by coasters, adding to cost) and cotton (couldn't compete with Lancashire and Strathlyde as climate too dry to stop threads snapping during spinning, and inferior skilled labour supply).

Perhaps mention should also be made somewhere on the page of hull being regarded as the third British seaport for long stretches of it's history, with - at it's peak - 7 miles of docks. A great source and helpful article for this can be found on the Times Online archive search (try the search 'mainstay of a city's prosperity' for a particularly informative article from 1965)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiator4612 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(sorry don't know how to sign) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiator4612 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You can sign by typing four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your comment, this will be converted into your username & date stamp when you save the edit. Keith D (talk) 10:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

No mention of slavery??Keith-264 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Slavery gets a passing reference with William Wilberforce's abolition work. Keith D (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Welcome to the heart of darkness :0). Funny how one of the most significant activities gets elided.Keith-264 (talk) 07:23, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Most significant" how? Slavery in Britain and Ireland names Bristol and Liverpool as major ports in the trade, but nowhere else. If you have references to slvarey being "significant" in Hull's economy, then by all means present them. Nick Cooper (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Removal of the East Park video
This video appeared on the article page with no warning or discussion about its relevance on the talk page and was removed by me when the revised text incorporating changes made in the light of the GA review was pasted into the article. The video was about a park that was not mentioned anywhere in the text of the article and thus appeared to be irrelevant and inappropriate. It seemed to be an experiment in importing video rather than a constructive addition to Kingston upon Hull article. The technical quality of the digital video upload is not in question. However,the quality of the video is poor on several compositional counts.
 * The panning is jerky and too fast, not giving the viewer time to absorb the scene.
 * The subjects are too far away from the camera to convey much information. Composed close ups or slow zooms would have been better.
 * Video is best used to show moving objects. The best shot is the bowling green.
 * There has been no discernible attempt to clean up or edit the raw footage.
 * The individual scenes have no "storyboard" type cues and no smooth joins or fade ins/outs.
 * The soundtrack is unedited and there are distracting, irrelevant, conversations and strange "noises off" including wind noise towards the end.
 * There are no orientation or explanation captions.

This video would be more relevant if it were in an article about East Park, but it would need to be edited and polished up to match the quality of the text and images in a good Wikipedia article. Personally, I am in favour of adding video to some Wikipedia articles. That is the most appropriate way to clarify, explain and enlighten in certain circumstances. Quality and relevance in video are harder to achieve than technical prowess in shooting and uploading.--Harkey (talk) 17:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Accent
How can the statement "The vowel in "Hull" is pronounced the same way as in Standard English" be at all true? The U will be a Northern U as in the rest of the region. The Southern vowel sound shift never came anywhere remotely this North. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 23:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This objection is absolutely valid. Whoever penned the offending line has probably done so in error.Malcolmbryant (talk) 11:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I notice that the audio file added as an aid to pronunciation is spoken with a southern English accent. Surely the example pronunciation should be spoken by a native of Hull? Leytonwd 21:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with the above two statements. Will this be changed? --Cookey83 (talk) 16:27, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:RaleighNC.png
The image Image:RaleighNC.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --04:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

'The biggest city in Europe never to have hosted top-flight football'
...is something that Hull was famous for until August 2008. To which city does that (dis)honour now belong? Might be something worth mentioning in the article?....Martyn Smith (talk) 21:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

John Wyke
Te history section indicates that Wyke-upon-Hull was named after John Wyke Archbishop of York. The reference gives no indication of this nor does the template Archbishops of York have a John Wyke in it. Google references appear to point to mirror sites. Has anyone got any idea who this John Wyke was? Keith D (talk) 22:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Additionally to this, primary (elementary) school children in this city are taught (as I was) that 'Wyke' was the Viking name for the city, it having strong Viking origins. This would make sense since I have heard many suggestions of 'Hull' and 'Humber' being of proto-germanic origins. I would be interested in more learned users clearing this up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cookey83 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think John Wyke is probably an "urban myth" repeated on a website some time ago. Wyke is a Scandinavian name for an inlet. See also Wyke upon Hull for more history.--Harkey (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Noun meaning 'Citizen of Kingston upon Hull'
The article states in the Notable People section that the a person of and from Hull is called a "Hullensian". The source of this is one amateur website that indicates no basis or qualification to show that they can decide what this term is. It seems much more likely that this is a word made up by the people involved in this website with a distinct lack of suitable research or local consultation. I can certainly verify that the accepted term in the circles in which I moved from around 1988 up until around 2003 was "Hullite", a term I still use as the official term to this day. In around 2003 I noticed a shift to the term "Hullian", especially amongst young working class people. This term is seems used by many community organisations in Hull today, especially those that work with young people in the city. Another term, which can largely regarded as slang but is none-the-less popular, is "Hulligan"; a play on the word 'hooligan' alluding to the supposed 'yobbish' and violent nature of Hull's residents.

I believe the only true way to find out what a denizen of Hull should be called is to look at other northern cities of Hull's size and socio-economic/historic background and find out what suffix is used after those names of those cities in order to denote one of it's residents. My suggestion would be to look at Liverpool, arguably the most similar city to Hull, and it's "Liverpudlians" which would suggest a citizen of Hull is in fact a "Hullian" after all.

--Cookey83 (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I got a fair number of hits on Google with "Hullensian" and "Hullite", not so many relevant ones with "Hullian".--Harkey (talk) 17:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * One of the usages is in the name of the rugby club Hullensians. Though a more reliable source would be appropriate. Keith D (talk) 19:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I've never once heard the term 'Hullian' or 'Hulligan'. The only reference I have heard as a the collective noun for citizen's is Hullensians, which was adopted in the early part of the last century, after initially gaining usage in reference to pupils attending Hull Grammar School (and the name of the school's official magazine) it's popularity spread. The term was also used in the Hull Daily Mail throughout WWII. 86.179.248.151 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC).

Main Photo
Would it be possible to change the picture of the maritime museum? It's a bit dowdy, taken on a rainy day and is also out of date now. There are far better photo's of this area and major civic buildings out there. Radiator4612 (talk)
 * Can you suggest some better images that are available under appropriate licence? Keith D (talk) 13:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that the picture of the Town Hall already on the page would be a better lead image. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The pic on this link is by the same photographer and taken from the same site. Personally I think it gives a better sense of the grandeur and scale of the town dock offices building: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1018683. Alternatively, I would recommend this photo: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1402096, which also includes the city hall, and is an impressive viewpoint 86.179.248.151 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC).
 * I have uploaded the 2 images to Commons so they are now available. See File:The Maritime Museum Hull.jpg and File:Domes of Hull.jpg Keith D (talk) 01:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Much happier with this pic Radiator4612 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC).

History Section
Would appreciate peoples thoughts on this line

"After the decline of the whaling industry, emphasis shifted to deep sea fishing until the Anglo-Icelandic Cod War of 1975–1976. The conditions set at the end of this dispute initiated Hull's economic decline.[5]"

I feel that this is a bit too simplistic as a general overview of any economic decline the city has experienced. And possibly too subjective. As is illustrated elsewhere in the article, whilst industrial deep sea trawling was indeed a major part of the city's economy, it was far from the only one. Conversely, there have been certain industries and economic drivers that have improved and expanded in the city since the decline of the fishing fleet. Perhaps a rewording, or a referenced article speaking about relative GDP for the city, or knock on effects for other sectors etc. would be useful? Radiator4612 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC).
 * Just as an aside we could do with creating a History of Kingston upon Hull article to give a more detailed history of the city for which this section should serve as a summary. Keith D (talk) 14:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)