Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Archive 1

Crap Towns
I also removed the section on the Crap Towns, which somebody has restored. I don't think is particularly relevant, there are many books on Hull and that is hardly the most authoritive.
 * - I disagree. This book is one of the most famous contempory references to Hull and forms the opinion of a large proportion of th UK that Hull is a post-war nightmare of concrete, unemployment, norrow minded volence and insular attitude. Whilst the old town and outlying villages may not like this a large proportion of Hull actually is - one of the reasons most educated people leave, never to return from university. 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have restored the crap towns mention. whilst i do not necessariy agree with the comments above it is a notable book with its own listing on Wikipedia, and a notable fact about the city.GazMan7 14:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

De La Pole family and hospital
Does anyone care to tell the story of the illustrious De La Pole family? They rank as being worthy of at least some mention. sugarfish 03:05 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) Especially as 'Dela' is used heavily to mean spaztic because of De La Pole hospital near willerby (now nursing accomodation) being used as a mental hospital for many years 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If this is the case I suggest that the people who use the term Dela "to mean spaztic" (surely the person who wrote this meant to write "spastic") ought to learn the difference between spasticity and mental illness.--Oxonian2006 22:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Except that you'd be up against decades of history of colloquial regionalised slang. In any case, when I was at school in the mid-70s it was used for anyone betraying the slightest degree of foolishness - not necessarily physical or mental defficiency - until it was supplanted by "Joey". Also, such regionalised slang is hardly isolated to Hull; a corruption of "Menston" was used in Leeds in relation to High Royds in the district of that name. Kids are inherently evil in that respect, and - no matter how "wrong" it is - pontificating about it on Wikipedia isn't going to make a scrap of difference, any more than telling them today that "gay" shouldn't be used an a catch-all derogatory term. Nick Cooper 07:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That not something I'm familiar with, though I intend to elaborate on the history and historical figures, and business and industry, including:


 * - Reckitts & Colemans,
 * - Smith and Nephew,

Peter Porter
I took out this text
 * - so many construe his comment to mean that there were many poets living in Hull. Although it could also mean that the town is viewed as so appalling by some that it's misery is poetic.

and will try and find a Porter's quotation and see whether it is ambiguous or if this is just speculation [[User:Paul Tracy|Paul Tracy/ talk]]

Excternal links
Whats with the deletion of the external links? Is that accidental? Should they be reinstated?

Seems to be deliberate by one one individual. I'll try and keep the pubs and fish trail links going - swldxer.

The case against Hull section

 * I have taken the following out of the article as I dont think it is terribly encyclopedic, especially not with this title. G-Man  20:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Hull has the dubious claim to fame of having only 28.9% achieving 5+ GCSE grades A to C (the lowest in the country). This is partly due to the fact that the city boundary does not include many of the town's wealthier suburbs, which are in the East Riding of Yorkshire instead.


 * Something factual about low educational standards, high levels of crime and social disadvantage are justified providing superlatives like 'dubious claim to fame' are avoided.  Martin Spamer

The city was also awarded first place in The Idler Book of Crap Towns, published in 2003, and was named the worst place to live in Channel 4's Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, broadcast in August 2005. Rupert Murdoch's News of the World has termed it "hell on earth", however Australian author Peter Porter has described it as "the most poetic city in the United Kingdom".


 * I strongly object to this being left out of the article. I feel that it is encyclopedic.  The case against Hull is not a good title.  I would rather have named it "Reputation" or something similar.  I did not write the original section, however, Hull is widely known in Britain to be one of the worst cities there.  It is widely mocked in popular culture too for being such a drab place to live.  Hull has the worst GCSE results in the whole of Britain, this should be noted down in the article, and is one of the reasons it was ranked so lowly in the Channel 4 documentary.  The first edition of Crap Towns also ranks Hull number 1, although in the 2nd edition it dropped to 19th (I think).  There was an Only Fools and Horses episode named To Hull and Back, and when David Brent tries to explain his love for travelling, he says "Well, Hull didn't travel to me, did it?".  Feel free to comment, but I will probably reinclude the above paragraph, or something to similar effect later. - Hahnchen 00:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that The Idler's book of Crap Towns, Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, Only Fools and Horses and The Office are not exactly scientific surveys. Furthermore, due to the local government stucturing within the city, statistics for the schools in West Hull have their GCSE results included in the results for the East Riding. The west of Hull is generally more prosperous and crime-free, and schools there perform better. I can think of no other city which suffers from this handicap.


 * If they're not within the Hull boundaries, they're not in Hull. It'd be like including the results from Stockport in Manchester.  Epa101 20:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You say that "Hull is widely known in Britain to be one of the worst cities there". This is news to me - do you have a source or is it just your POV? Paul Tracyundefined


 * That's true, yes. However, in popular culture, Hull is seen as one of the worst places in Britain, and has been mocked in the various publications and productions.  Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, whilst not a scientific study, did take lots of numeric factors into account, like crime rate, education, employment etc.  The show also mentioned that Hull is the fattest city in Britain which has not been mentioned here before, .  Hull does have a bad reputation, however, one should balance the above paragraph with the regeneration projects happening in Hull.  New developments like the KC Stadium, The Deep and numerous new housing projects aim to lift Hull's image.  However, other schemes like the demolition of 2 failing schools, rebuilt as Endeavour High have so far failed, the new school having similar or worse results than the schools before it. .  I'm not sure about other city's boundaries, but to me, I think that small city boundaries have been a scapegoat for failing Hull schools, looking elsewhere for the problem, instead of itself.  It has however, led to a brain drain away from Hull and into the surrounding areas with schools in East Riding being oversubscribed.  - Hahnchen 15:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Facts are always useful in an encyclopædia. But your assertions that "Hull is seen as one of the worst places in Britain", "Hull does have a bad reputation" etc are subjective and smack of prejudice. By the yardstick you employ, Liverpool could be described as "widely known to be full of shell-suited shoplifters" and London as "the suicide bombing capital of Europe". Paul Tracyundefined
 * You can place these facts in without a strong POV. The publications and TV shows mentioned above may not be scientific, and there are many things that can not be judged by statistics, like sense of community.  Whereas the only reference to shell suited burglarising Liverpudlians I can find is the Harry Enfield show, many sources have ranked Hull as a bad town.  Hull has the worst GCSE pass rate in Britain, that's unarguable.  But if you feel that the Hull references in the above publications and TV shows would be too POV to include then I would follow the consensus established here. - Hahnchen 00:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oops. This is my fault for seperating out that section and giving it a heading that, really, wasn't very wikipedia - so feel free to get rid of that. The text of that section should remain though, whether it gets its own (good) heading or not. The fact that Hull keeps on winning these accolades tells you a lot about the place. --Artw 04:09, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * To be fair, this is a factor of some universality and is Wikipedia's drawback, not Hull's. In any other encyclopedia no talk of settlement reputation would and should be tolerated in either direction, full stop. Erm, well in any case except for the barely ostensible tinge of personal opinion - the issue would be kaput, finished, dead. That policy would be final, unequivocally-appreciated and absolute. Sadly, Wiki's "different". ;) Only the world can police Wikipedia and sadly, albeit understandably, the rest of the world can scarcely refrain from plunging in with that venerable 'Point of View'. If it were my call, I'd simply try out of no other option to integrate into the article the juxaposing views sympathetically, with a view to maintaining maximum accessibility for a wide spectrum of opinion. It is after all, still an encyclopedia, even if a somewhat 'divergent' one. (MRacer)


 * It's true. Hull is one of the worst cities in the United Kingdom. Having lived in many a place, I find Hull to be the smelliest, beggar-ridden, rat-infested city I've ever seen. Attempts to clean up the city with its 'Gold Zone' policy have only served to point to the fact that its streets are overrun with chavs and people high on pot and cider. There are lots of things in this article which are opinionated. For example, Hull having one of the most advanced network infrastructures in the county. Says who? Kingston Communications co-developed the ADSL technology and yet dragged its heels when it came to rolling it out in its own town. Instead, they tried to push an ultimately terrible interactive television vehicle, KiT. To say it's one of the most advanced is a laughable lie. MAN's exist in most of the major cities in the United Kingdom and indeed the world. It is not anywhere near the most extensive, or the most advanced.
 * You should write in to the daily mail, all they're doing is printing letters from angry Hull residents about how it's the greatest place on planet earth. But I think the Case Against Hull section can wait for a while, preliminery GCSE results show that Hull have lifted off the bottom of the table and jumped 7 places up. - Hahnchen 15:34, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

My mate went to uni there and came back describing the city as 'an absolute shit-hole'. Seeing as she grew up in a place as crap as Cramlington, this is indisputable proof of its crapness.

I also removed the section on the Crap Towns, which somebody has restored. I don't think is particularly relevant, there are many books on Hull and that is hardly the most authoritive.
 * - I disagree. This book is one of the most famous contempory references to Hull and forms the opinion of a large proportion of th UK that Hull is a post-war nightmare of concrete, unemployment, norrow minded volence and insular attitude. Whilst the old town and outlying villages may not like this a large proportion of Hull actually is - one of the reasons most educated people leave, never to return from university. 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hull has often been voted as the least popular place to reside in the UK. Mostly may I add by small minded people who haven't even been to Kingston upon Hull."

While the second part of this is probably accurate, it almost certainly qualifies as POV! 193.129.65.37 07:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Definately opinionated, I agree. I would, however, argue that the first part is also true. Having lived in Hull and numerous other places, it's hard not to disagree. Either way, its status as 'worst town' should be noted somewhere. --Dan (Talk) 10:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Most comments made on this page are opinions and not actual facts. I generally find most negative and somewhat 'hateful' comments originate from, as mentioned, small-minded people who have never visited the city (and probably don't know where it is). No one can deny any of the problems the city has (i.e. education), but such problems are slowly (but surely) being improved. Many northern cities have suffered from neglect over the past few decades - take Newcastle for example - but urban regeneration and major development has helped to change the face of that and many other cities. Now it is Hull's turn. With over £1 billion of investment things are changing... and for the better. Do not judge Hull by pseudo-literary publications or TV programming. See for yourself what the city is really like.

Im sure a quote by someone by Philip Larkin would be a satisfactory addition. He hated the place and always told everyone. Who was the guy who said "Is there anything nice about hull? ... well, its very flat so its good to cycle on."

The Name
I am assuming the city is officially the City of Kingston-upon-Hull - perhaps that should be made clearer in the article...--80.195.253.219 03:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Officially it is the City & County of Kingston-upon-Hull87.102.44.114 03:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it with or without hyphens? Kingston-upon-Hull or Kingston upon Hull? Or either? Official websites seem to use both, the wiki article is without. Folks at 137 11:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've seen both uses too, although more often without hyphens than with, at least in Hull's case. There is inconsistency among cities with similarly constructed names (cf. Newcastle upon Tyne and Stoke-on-Trent). My personal preference is without (easier/quicker to type), and I think as long as one form is used consistently throughout an article, it doesn't really matter. Doonhamer |  Banter  14:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

County
I made a minor edit earlier to the intro that removed the reference that Hull was in Yorkshire, it was reverted with the following citation: http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=221,83114&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL although the point is that Hull hasn't been in the county of Yorkshire for decades, from 1974 until 1996 it was part of Humberside and since then it's been a Unitary Authority with no County council - which would support the fact it's not 'in' Yorkshire, it's surrounded by it, as the second intro paragraph states. For anyone who doesn't know the area, the wording of the opening paragraphs is awful, so is it in Yorkshire, surrounded by yorkshire, or somewhere near Timbuktu? Jastein 23:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hull is in Yorkshire. Hull has been part of Yorkshire since 1996 when Humberside was abolished. There doesn't need to be a county council for a city to be part of a county. Newcastle is in Tyne and Wear - it is a unitary authority not a county council, Liverpool is part of Merseyside - it is a unitary authority not a county council etc... I understand its a grey area - but if the citys own council is saying its part of Hull, your going to need a lot of fact to show its not. Its definetely nowhere near Timbuktu neither. --TFoxton 00:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What about the "Welcome to the East Riding of Yorkshire" signs as you leave the city? :-p I understand what you are saying about the council although I still personally think it is a grey area dependent on how you define geographic region in England. Historic Counties? Ceromonial Counties? Administrative Counties? Common postal addresses?


 * My main point is not to do with the Unitary Authority (that was just badly explained on my part, I apologise) but this may get my point across:


 * "Hull, is a city and unitary authority which is situated on the north bank of the Humber estuary in the northern English county of Yorkshire.


 * It is surrounded by the East Riding of Yorkshire and forms part of that county for ceremonial purposes. It is part of the Yorkshire and the Humber Government Office Region."


 * So to the uninformed visiting Wikipedia wishing to learn about Hull, the intro tells them it's in the county of Yorkshire, as well as both being in and surrounded by East Yorkshire. Jastein 00:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand your point - I think some of the problem lies in the fact that the East Riding of Yorkshire is called that, that is the name for the Unitary Authority that covers the area, whereas all that area plus Hull is known as just East Yorkshire. It is confusing as you say re the signs as you enter the East Riding. As you enter Wakefield or Richmond for example you are entering these areas plus South Yorkshire and North Yorkshire respectively, so when you enter the East Riding of Yorkshire, you enter it AND East Yorkshire, see Ceremonial counties of England. Feel free to rearrange the intro paragraph.--TFoxton 11:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I played around with several wordings, and unfortunately, the most accurate and concise one in my opinion was the one I changed to before. The main reasons are that it gives the location in the world (Humber estuary, in the north, in England) without the confusion of the differences between the types of counties. Also, the detail with the counties is expanded in the side pannel and further on, without muddling up the intro paragraphs. If this is still a problem feel free to rewrite and comment here. Jastein 02:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The big thing a lot og you are getting hung up about are just arbritary administration districts. Yorkshire itself still exists in is traditionasl and historic state which it has done for centuries. It is just no longer administered by a single or several councils/authorties which take a simple name of 'Yorkshire', 'somthing Yorkshire' or 'Yorskhire something'. The fact still remains that Hull is well and trubly part of the greater area called Yorkshire (which isn't even the sma eas the Government region Yorskhire and the Humber, as that inlcudes parts of Lincolnshire yet disculeds areas to the north, such as Middlesborough and Redcar). Evil Eye 17:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The counter point to that is: how do you determine relative geographic locations without referring to administration regions of one kind of another? They do change over time, and so do people's relative geography. Many in Hull (embarassingly including the council on the odd occassion) refer to Hull as being in Humberside still...yet Humberside as a region was never wanted nor liked "by the people" and as an administration area has ceased to be. Some Mancunians still consider themselves to be in Lancashire, although I doubt many Londoners consider themselves to be from Middlesex. A few years down the line, Hull and Yorkshire might be the same, who knows. For now though: the opening paragraph I altered doesn't sound as contradictory, and the info about the different classification of administrative regions is in the infobox, including the historic county of Yorkshire. Jastein 18:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Though I cannot be 100% certain on this as I wasn't around at the time of the change, I have read/heard from seevral sources that one line of argument used by those who were creating the admin districts in the 70s was that the traditional counties were not being replaced by these new admin districts, but rather they would still exist along side then, only that they wouldn't be used for admin purpose. I don't think that has ofically changed to this day, so it would suggest the old traditional and historic Yorkshire still exists and anything whcih was part of histroic Yorkshire still is (it's quite topical, but this would explain why Saltburn-by-the-Sea, which is in the admin area of Redcar and Cleveland or somewhere similar, played host to offical Yorkshire Day celebrations a couple of years. If it wasn't still offically in Yorkshire, it shouldn't have been able to do this. Evil Eye 09:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Culture
On an unrelated note, the culture cleanup flag is definately deserving, although, what should be done to tidy it up? I'd be in favour of removing all but the most prominent entries (Beautiful South, EBTG etc.) in what seems like an advertisement for college bands, but I wouldn't want to seem rash. Ideally it would end up being organised like Manchester, Leeds or Bradford. Any comments or suggestions? Jastein 02:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * - definitely - many of the bands listed are in the 'not notable' category. seems like that section about live music was written by a promotor, to me... --82.43.100.107 23:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wilson Line
Thomas Wilson, his sons Charles and Arthur and the Shipping Line they owned are surely one of the major parts of Hull history and have been completely ignored in the entry. Hull was at one point the Third port in all England trade. I think it would be worth adding an entry about their cultural significance in Hull's history. I would also consider a better mention of William Wilburforce and for Philip Larkin, especially regarding the university. User:El Scorcho 14:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hull maritime project

This page is part of a WikiProject that links all artciles relating to Hull's maritime history in this period. There is a section in this article that will be monitored and possibly added to by the project for accuracy and to be comprehensive. | Hull Maritime Project

Ludgates, Hull, England
If one is to come from the Ludgates, Hull, England, where are they from actually? Could Ludgates actually mean "Flood gates"? If so does Hull have flood gates and if some one reffered to them as being from there where would that be?
 * No idea - live in Hull and never heard it. Hull has a flood barrier (not gates) - with housing kind of near by but...?

I havent heard of Ludgate in Hull but there is a Lowgate. The ___gates in Hull typically refer to roads where gates existed when it was a Walled settlement. This is origins of Whitefriargate, Posterngate and Lowgate. Alot of what is now the city center _is_ built on reclaimed flood planes and some this was flooded during the Civil war seige of the City by the destruction of water sluices. The river Hull has a tidal barrier that is mentioned in the main article but this is modern structure (maybe 20years old).

Historically LUD [Llud] (73-58 BC): Was a king of Britain, came down from Scotland and made his way through Northumberland to London there are Ludgates in London, Leeds, ?York and Birmingham and probaably other places as well... though I don't think there has ever been one in Hull. Lud ordered the rebuilding of London's walls and towers. Up to this point London had been known as Trinovantum but now it became known as Kaerlud, or the City of Lud. This was later corrupted to Kaerlundein or City of Lundein, a small step to City of London. Lud is buried in London close to Ludgate which bears his name. Lud had two sons, Androgeus, Duke of Kent and Tenvantius (Tasclovanus), Duke of Cornwall but neither were considered suitable to succeed their father which was how Cassivelaunus, Lud's brother, became king...

There's also Blackfriargate it's near the Ha'penny bridge to the Deep. 83.100.175.111 22:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

St Stephen's / Quay West
Is it worthwhile adding info about both of these developments?


 * Under transport a mention of the new interchange that will be created may be required when considering adding the St Stephen's development.
 * Keith D 16:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think a section on the regeneration of the city should be included here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.102.38.123 (talk • contribs) date.


 * Added, under Economy heading, feel free to edit as appropriate --TFoxton 22:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Accent
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/search/advanced.cfm This details four different accents from Hull, and all four seem to have the O: sound in "goat" listed. Did somebody get it the wrong way around in the article? I'm not an expert on how to represent pronounciations.

Also, on it being different from Yorkshire generally, I think it's better to say that it's very different from East Yorkshire accents. Two reasons why:

1 There are plenty of areas in Yorkshire that have an accent unlike anywhere around. Harrogate is arguably the best example. [Only joking]. 2 Being from the West Riding, I don't find Hull speech to be that different whilst I find the rest of East Riding speech to be completely different. Epa101 20:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just doing another search, the accents for the East Riding towns of Old Goole, Withernsea and Old Newton all have an 8 sound listed for "goat". Sounds like someone got it wrong way around to me.  Epa101 20:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming
Actually, should this article be moved? If so, to to Hull or Hull, Humberside as Hull is the most common name? Simply south 12:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's fine as it is. "Hull" get's to a disambiguation page as it should.  This is meant to be an encyclopedia so the proper name rather than the more common name is appropriate.  And certainly not to Hull, Humberside as it's not in Humberside - whatever that is/was. MikesPlant 12:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Keep as it is. Kris 13:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. Humberside is the region around Hull. The suggestion was based on a similar move thing. See Talk:Letchworth. Simply south 16:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hull Fair
Think that there should be some mention of the Hull Fair similar the entry on the Goose Fair in the Nottingham atricle. There is also a separate article on the Goose Fair itself which may be possible if there is enough material.

Keith D 13:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably doesn't merit a page in its own right, as it doesn't have the history of the Nottingham event, but even so it is worth a mention. It notable that the 1928 Ordnance Survey map of West Hull has the Fair Ground marked as such, so a point can be made about a piece of land specifically set aside for the purpose in Hull, as opposed to elsewhere, where fairs are usually held on park or common land.

Nick Cooper 14:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The Wyke fair was first charted around 1100 Charter by the Abbot of Meaux. It's current existence is down to the 1279 charter by King Edward. The National Fairground Archive maintained by the University of Sheffield has more information at http://www.hullfair.net and http://www.shef.ac.uk/nfa/history/charter/hull.php

Martin Spamer

Hullensian?
The page says that an inhabitant of the city is called a 'Hullensian'; however I've never ever heard this term - most people I know use 'Hullian'. I'm not sure whether this is widely used either (most results on google are to do with psychology, although the top one is a website of someone in hull). Anyone have any thoughts on which is more correct? --smigs 22:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Hullian" is what I've heard the most regularly. It always reminds me of "hooligan", which is apt. I've never heard the term "Hullensian". "Hullite" is another one. Robinoke 08:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've heard "Hullensian" a few times, and I think it appears in the names of a few minor sporting teams from Hull although I couldn't name any. I have heard "Kingstonian" as well, which also rolls off the tongue but may lead to confusion with Kingston Upon Thames. I've never heard "Hullian", although that's a term you'd imagine most people almost 'making up' since that's a very common ending for an inhabitant. I did hear "Hullite" once a while ago, but it really doesn't sound as natural as these other terms. I would suggest there isn't a name for an inhabitant of Hull in common usage. Kris 10:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Kingtonian seems to be the most used formal/written form and I've certainly heard that used by the BBC local news; Hullensian is a common enough verbal alternative. I can't recall ever hearing Hullian or Hullite. Martin Spamer.

Hullensian is used, or was used in the Hull Grammar School Alma Mater, should probably have a larger section on that too, it was a pretty major part of Hull's history, and had a number of famous students, including William Wilberforce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

The Deep
I was wondering about the so little mention of The Deep in this article. I would say it is one of the most famous structures in the area and should at least warrant a picture on this page with some details (I can provide a photo if necessary). What do you lot think? The Guy From Ipanema 22:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Go for it. Kris 08:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I know this isn't a tourist brochure but upon visiting Hull, i found it was better than the aquarium in London. Simply south 12:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Wyke upon Hull
The tale of John Wyke, Archbishop of York and the locals being miffed is all very nice, but it isn't backed by the sources. For a start, check out Wikipedia's List of Archbishops of York (or look up another version) - you'll notice John Wyke is totally missing (and certainly wasn't about at the relevant time). Certainly, Wyke existed well before 1291, and histories of Hull (and gazetteers of names etc.) give another story about the early history.

It is most likely that the shortening to 'Hull' came about from the town being well known for it's port, which was named (at least as far back as 1193) 'The Port of Hull', after the river on which it stood. 82.153.111.141 00:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Comparison with Kingston upon Thames
Can I just query the point about Kingston upon Hull being shortened to Hull to 'avoid confusion with Kingston upon Thames'? The city has been referred to as Hull since medieval times, back when it was called Wyke-upon-Hull and I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with it being confused with Kingston upon Thames. (little muddy funkster 22:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
 * I've removed it. It was unsourced and completely wrong. - smigs 00:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Photo's
Have uploaded some photo's - may be of use... maybe not... at the bottom of my user page... Merlin-UK 23:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Recently managed to get some better quality indoor shots in Holy Trinity have added them on my userpage, help yourselves if they are of any use... soory you need alink as they are on commons here... [] Merlin-UK 21:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Featured Picture
Please visit Featured_picture_candidates/KC_Stadium_at_night if you are interested in having the picture of the KC Stadium raised to the status of featured picture or if you think that it definitely shouldn't be featured. Thanks, ...adam...  ( talk •  contributions ) 19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Religion
Firstly, do you think that a statistic from six years ago about church attendance is relevant anymore?

Secondly, do you trust it? When you think of towns with large Muslim communities, do you really think that Hull's church attendance is lower than Dewsbury, Bradford, Tower Hamlets, etc.? It seems unlikely to me.

A church in a parish in east Dewsbury closed recently. I remember, in about 2003, that the church was practically deserted. Don't think that attendance was too high around there! Epa101 22:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Nightlife
Does anyone else think this section sounds slightly more like an opinion than fact? Also shouldn't the section be highlighting what the city offers currently rather than what has recently closed down?little muddy funkster 18:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Reputation
After reverting an edit this morning that had deleted the Reputation section entirely, I read it a bit more closely and decided to try to improve the section a bit. I rewrote and added references to a few of the statements about Hull. I am generally very gung-ho about reliable, objective sources and hesitated a bit about using an external posting board as a source, but as a topic such as "reputation" is inherently subjective, I decided to include it. My own POV is positive as I love the city, but I tried to keep to keep the same blend of positive and negative statements as existed before my edits. I'm not done finding sources and references; if anybody else can find references for the uncited statements still extant in the section, please feel free to add them. Doonhamer |  Banter  20:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed this sentence from the end of the first paragraph in the reputation section: "However, the city did not appear anywhere in the Bottom 10 of the more recent, 2006 chart, where it was replaced by Hackney, London." as this information already existed, with source, just a bit further down the page. Doonhamer |  Banter  01:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Channel 4's worst places 2007
It looks like Hull's back on the list in second place, with Middlesbrough the worst. Was wondering what other editors thought of removing all references to this programme entirely from the article? The articles for Manchester, Nottingham, and Middlesbrough, other perennial favorites for the list, make no mention of it, and I don't see how mentioning Hull's ranking every year adds to the article. I'm sure more serious sources for the city's negative and positive qualities can be found. What do others think? Doonhamer 14:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As somebody who spent their first 17½ years of their life in Hull (and with a number of relatives still licing there), it's always seemed to me that the city's alleged awfulness is something that defines it to the rest of the country in popular terms, in the same way Liverpool is characterised by various aspects of its population (good or bad), Manchester by its music, etc. Although lacking the likes of John Betjemen's the cultural endorsement of Slough (which that page isn't shy of acknowledging), Hull invariably figures in the Crap Town/Worst Place to Live stakes, although probably more because people expect it to be there, and indeed are keen to put it there because it reinforces what people think already. Nick Cooper 15:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Point taken Nick. No one else has seen fit to comment, so in it stays. Doonhamer 17:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Paul Collins
Removed "Paul Collins, attended the University of Hull" from the list of people associated. The link goes only to a disambiguation page with no indication of which Paul Collins there, if any, is this person. Doonhamer |  Banter  15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I checked all the links on the Paul Collins dab page. None of them indicates which might be the Paul Collins who attended the University of Hull. Doonhamer |  Banter  15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

External link to regeneration forum
While I agree that Wikipedia is not a link farm, I do think that the link to the urban construction forum is an appropriate link and is not low quality. I initially removed it last night. But, after re-reading the WP:EL guidelines on discussion forums (generally to be avoided unless the forum is dedicated to the subject of the article, which this one is) and visiting the forum myself, I changed my mind and decided it would be a good addition. The forum users often post useful information and links to genuine third-party source documents such as planning documents and construction company design pages. Considering the article has a section on regeneration in Hull, I see merit in keeping this link. <font color="Orange">Doonhamer <font color="Orange">| <font color="Orange"> Banter  19:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Good Article status-ready, don't you think?
After reading the article and some other info related to Hull, I think this B-Class rated article is actually a shoe-in for a Good Article. Any interest in pursuing this status at this point? --Mareklug talk 07:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Think we need to do some work but should be worth the effort if we can get it to at least GA status. See rating comments at Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Comments for points that need addressing first. Keith D 08:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It hadn't occurred to me to submit this article for GA. I was always under the impression that the Music sections of articles on cities and towns, which invariably attract unsourced and oftentimes unsourceable content as bands-of-the-week come and go, would be a stumbling block. I'd be willing to help though. Doonhamer15:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added the "Automated Review" output to the comments for further pointers to look at in preparation for GA review. Keith D 20:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Simply south that lots more references are needed. Probably one of the higher priority items to work on. Doonhamer 14:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I would agree we need lots more reliable references apart from probably the people section as the references, in theory, should be on the wikilinked pages. Keith D 15:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added a couple more tags now and am uncertain about should the Lead and History have more refs? The other sections i have not tagged seem okay. Simply south 21:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I started adding content to the lead a few days ago, drawing from information already existing in the article. This weekend I'll work on sourcing the lead and the the content in the article I drew the lead info from. Doonhamer 13:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Referencing looks good so far, however, it doesn't need to be done for every single sentence or word, just as long as the info is there so after a few sentnces. Simply south 00:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Would be good if you can remove the tags from a section when you think we have covered all of the referencing required. May be we can move to the Fact templates for specific items when we have nearly finished a section. Keith D 15:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Popular Music
After one too many IP addresses added another flavour-of-the-week band complete with link to its MySpace page to the "current bands to look out for" paragraph, I thought I'd start working on the Popular Music section. I looked to the articles on Birmingham (GA-status) and Manchester (FA-status) for guidance. Neither has a similar list of current local little-known bands, although both mention well-known bands that emerged locally. So I decided to remove the list of local little-known bands as being difficult to source, unmanageable, unencyclopaedic, and prone to misuse for promotional purposes. I've also started trying to locate sources for the remainder of the material in the section. Doonhamer 22:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Infobox image rotation
It isn't useful to revert to an earlier image in the infobox with nothing more than "it's a far better image" in the edit summary when the criteria by which such a judgment is made isn't defined. Doing so amounts to little more than "I reverted it because I liked the old one better."

The image I use shows a view toward Queen Victoria Square from Carr Lane with several landmarks of Hull visible, such as the Maritime Museum and the Ferens Art Gallery. It also shows a livelier street scene than did the previous photo. That image purported in its caption to show Victoria Square, but really showed nothing more than the architectural details of the upper stories of two buildings in the square, with no sense of direction or perspective for the viewer. According to these criteria, the current photo is "far better". However, I make no claim to the intrinsic worth of either; each is useful in its way.

At any rate, rotating the infobox photo every few weeks to highlight different areas and views of the city would seem to be a good idea, but if anybody feels otherwise, I'm happy to discuss the matter. Doonhamer 23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The above points made, I've restored the city centre thumbnail in the infobox to the previous version until the Commons server caching issues are sorted permanently. Doonhamer 01:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Have you not just reverted it too - is that because you "...liked the old one better"? The image you curently have on the page (:Image:Hull City Centre.jpg) is of nothing but a road and double yellow lines. It shows very little of Hull. Admittedly, the previous image is only of two building tops but is far more striking and shows a representation of Hull's city centre. The current image would be far better on the article A1105 road (Carr Lane) if there were one. Im not going to revert again, but a consensus, vote or agreement may be worthwhile. --TFoxton 16:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I rotated the image because I stand by the point I make above, that rotating the photo periodically to show different views of the city enhances the article, a point you do not address. In a few days or weeks, I'd be happy to rotate the photo to one of the KC Stadium or the Hull Maritime Museum or the Arctic Corsair or the Ferens Art Gallery or the Tidal Barrier or the original photo or anything else worthy of note in the city. I'm also curious why you would think that a view of the Maritime Museum and the Ferens Art Gallery constitutes "very little of Hull". The user only needs to click the thumbnail to see the larger image and the description from the Commons, explaining the view as I just did to you. Doonhamer 17:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Schools
it says its gcse pass rate was 50% but it was well below the national average at 25.9% and one school got only 6% pass rate. god they are fucking thick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.33.131 (talk) 17:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source for this? Secondly, please be civil when writing comments. Simply south 20:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On the topic of schools: Would anybody like to take a crack at sourcing the middle paragraph of the Schools subsection? I started sourcing that section and finished the first paragraph (the last was already sourced), but as I've not lived in the UK since I was two, my familiarity with the UK educational testing system in general, and the assertions in the middle paragraph in particular, is basically nil. I will continue sourcing other sections needing it this weekend. Doonhamer 17:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Failed to locate any suitable sources for this as yet. All I came up with is the single reference to last in the tables which I have added as an example reference for the first sentence. I will keep looking as there must be some reports on it. Can anyone else pitch in with this? Keith D 21:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[outdent]

I have removed the following text from the schools section as I can find no references to support it. I have replaced it with current information on the 2007 results but feel free to re-add it if a suitable reference can be found. Keith D (talk) 11:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This, however, is a problem that many large inner-city Local Education Authorities have. In 2006, Hull’s secondary schools’ examination succession rate rocketed by 75% from 28.9% of pupils achieving 5 or more GCSEs with grades of C or higher in 2004 to more than 50%, bringing Hull close to the national average. This was partly due to a major restructuring of Hull's secondary education system, which involved several closures, mergers and the construction of an entirely new school. In common with many other regions, the number of pupils passing five GCSEs dropped when the system was changed to count only those pupils passing English and Maths as part of the five.

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)