Talk:Kokkina

Comment
This article was written because very little information pertaining to this siege is available. It shows the TC's resistance against the GC's in a different light than what is usually put out by the oh-so-efficient GC propaganda machine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Expatkiwi (talk • contribs) 01:02, 5 June 2005 (UTC)

The correct name is Kokkina. Stop changing the names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.5.97.153 (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2005 (UTC)

The correct name isn't Kokaina. Erenköy belongs to North Cyprus and we can give the name to our city Erenköy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.119.133 (talk) 19:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In August 1964, a chemical attack took place in the Kokkina Mansoura area. Fighting broke out on 3 August and continued until 6 August, during which the Turkish air force bombed Greek villages indiscriminately with napalm. Napalm tops the list of chemical weapons used by the Turkish state. Napalm can generate temperatures of up to 800 degrees when used on its own, but this temperature may rise to 1,500 to 2,000 degrees when it is fortified with certain chemicals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.193.39 (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Totally disputed
This article now has a disputed marker because of the following: 1:It refers to an event by presenting the writer's POV and does not state different opinions or the fact that other POVs exist. 2:It is written by one particular user without consultation or review by others. 3:It is not neutrally worded or encyclopedic in nature. 4:No references cited at all.--Jsone 11:24, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'''References are books,articles,websites, or quotes.A list of names is not a reference. ''' Concerning the links you have posted: 1:"Erenköy Confrontation" This is taken from a "TRNC" website.Independent sources are needed to to prove a disputed point.This is POV. 2:"BBC article on the siege".

"The air raids were in response to vicious fighting which has been raging for the last three days around the Turkish Cypriot village of Kokkina.

A UN spokesman said that Turkish Cypriots had lost all villages in the area apart from Kokkina to the Greek Cypriots.

Now, he said, there were 200 women and children still in Kokkina and refusing to be moved to safety by the UN. "

This has minimal information about the event itself.

3:"Aftermath of the Siege"This deals with events following the siege, and doesn't contain any of the info the article here has.However,this excerpt from the same source (in the previous page ) has info that should be added to this article.

"The Cyprus Government was becoming increasingly concerned about the Tylliria Region, not only because of Turk-Cypriot road blocks on the coastal highway, but because it was now convinced that large numbers of weapons and men were being smuggled into the island from Turkey through the beaches at Kokkina. In fact, about 500 Turk-Cypriot youths who were studying in Turkey had received some military training and had been landed at Kokkina. However, Greek-Cypriot roadblocks prevented these reinforcements from leaving the area.

On 6 August, National Guard and Greek Army units attacked Turk-Cypriot villages around Kokkina. Turk-Cypriot civilians and Fighters were forced to retreat into a narrow beachhead and were subjected to an intense artillery bombardment. On 7 August, Turkish aircraft had over-flown the battle-zone and fired their weapons out to sea as a show of strength to reinforce a Turkish ultimatum to stop the attack. On 8 August, Turkish jets attacked National Guard and Greek troops in the Tylliria region. UNFICYP was unable to negotiate a cease-fire. President Makarios announced that if Turkish air attacks were again carried out, he would order an attack on every Turkish-Cypriot village and quarter in Cyprus. Despite this threat, it is probable that Turkey would have continued its air attacks, or would have even launched an invasion, if the Cyprus Government had not heeded the Security Council's resolution for a cease-fire on 9 August. The cease- fire was in effect by 10 August and UNFICYP established observation posts around Kokkina and Limnitis.

Official casualty figures issued by the Cyprus Government show that 55 Greek-Cypriots were killed and 125 were wounded. Almost all these casualties were due to the air attacks. Of these casualties, it was reported that 28 dead and 56 wounded were civilians. Any casualties among Greek Army officers and men involved in the offensive were not disclosed. Ten Turk-Cypriots were killed.

The Tylliria offensive showed that Turkey was indeed committed to military intervention in Cyprus if the Greek-Cypriot community continued to pursue enosis by force of arms. In the light of this, President Makarios decided that the struggle would be continued by political and economic means. General Grivas, for his part, decided that the lesson of the Tylliria battle was not that a military solution to enosis must be eschewed, but rather that Greek and Greek-Cypriot forces must be better prepared for an inevitable future confrontation with the Turks."--Jsone 06:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, shut up. Handle your own atrocities then wave a finger at Turks.--Kagan the Barbarian 21:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow...Your references are a Turkish Cypriot Magazine, a Turkish Cypriot Representative (the name TRNC is not accepted/recognised by any country besides Turkey and furthermore...It's his bloody job to propagantise for his "state"), a Turkish Cypriot Broadcasting corporation and a British collumnist supporting Turkish interests (D. Carter). And you even dare calling this "think" a encyclopedia entry. Secondly, it is clear that this article is not neutral and should be considered biased. Unless both sides of the story are expressed this article should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.219.159 (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

My References for this article

 * British Columnist David Carter
 * Cyprus Today Magazine
 * Los Angeles Hon. Representative for the TRNC
 * Bayrak Radio and Television Corporation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Expatkiwi (talk • contribs) 03:31, 7 June 2005 (UTC)

Besides my comments on references above this article has the following major problems: 1:Total POV imbalance.Please read and understand the following:[]There is no representation of the Greek Cypriot side of the story.Furthermore, all of the references you cite cannot be considered neutral (except David Carter, whom I know nothing about). 2:Emotional neutrality.Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.It deals with facts or ,when they are unclear, Points of View.Expression of emotion or opinion on behalf of the writer are irrelevant.Parts of this text, and especially the "Today" section are very problematic in this respect. 3:The point of an encyclopedia is to inform it's users.It is not a soapbox to express opinions, express claims or praise/accuse, which is what this article does in many ways.This article, the way you 've linked it to pretty much everything relevant to Cyprus, the relevant comment you've left on the exclave page, where it is totally irrelevant, and the following messages in your talk page:

""E.A., On a TRNC news site, I just read about the 1964 siege of Erenköy, and this stuff is dynamite! I put it on Wikipedia. It's an excellent example of Greek Cypriot attempts to subjugate the Turkish Cypriot minority and the resistance exibited by the Turkish Cypriots. My hat is off to those brave defenders. Expatkiwi 19:04, 3 June 2005

E.A., I had the first burn about the article. An anonymous reader told me that the proper name of the site is Kokkina and that I was not to change names at all. Well, too bad. The Hon. Representative for the TRNC in Los Angeles told me that he had family members who had defended Erenköy at the 1964 siege. I'm not going to disgrace those who defended and died there. The deaths of those who defended that town deserve to be acknowledged and honored. I'm proud of what I have written. Expatkiwi 23:10, 5 June 2005""

show total disregard for wikipedia's mission and principles.--Jsone42 19:25, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, Jsone42. First, I don't appreciate you pulling up my personal messages (between myself and E.A.). Secondly, The site is always open for editing. The neat thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can edit or add a site. The fact that it has been edited to add more of the GC side of the argument attests to this. You may not have been aware, but earlier, there has been some nasty pro GC edits and new entries recently made in Wikipedia. I saw this reference as a balance. Admittedly, I am pro-TRNC, but I try to be as factual as possible in my entries. .--Expatkiwi 21:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1:I'm aware that anyone can edit at any time.I thought it would be good to discuss changes before they are made, so that we can avoid any possibility of an edit war. 2:Messages in talk pages aren't supposed to be personal.That's why they are open for everyone and not code locked or restricted to groups. 3:Anyway, I think we can remove the "disputed" tag for now.However, I'm adding this page to Pages needing attention because it needs review by someone with thorough knowledge of the events in Cyprus. --Jsone 22:53, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Members of my family lived in the Kokkina enclave. They retreated there from the village of Aytotoro, where they had lived for generations. They lost land and property. In Kokkina/Erenkoy that spent many months living in caves, because of greek bombardments. The Turkish Cypriot Enclaves are an overlooked but important part of the Cyprus conflict--Son of the Tundra 02:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

UNFanatic's vital editing
I don't know how others missed it but it sure couldn't get away from UNFanatic's super-human observation skills. He changed all the "Erenköy/Kokkina"s in the article to "Kokkina/Erenköy". Thanks for clearing that out fellow Greek, another battle won for GCs perhaps?--Kagan the Barbarian 21:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Erenköy
The place was mostly inhabited by Turks even before the Republic of Cyprus. Currently it is a part of TRNC. So its Turkish name must be used primarily and the article must be redirected to Erenköy exclave.--Hattusili 16:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree and wonder why all those enthusiast users about Cyprus issues have never opined on this... --E4024 (talk) 10:46, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Erenköy in German WP. --E4024 (talk) 10:55, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

NorthernCyprusMap.jpg
Let it be said that I am no expert on this issue at all, so the point of view here is one of the uninitiated. The image NorthernCyprusMap.jpg shown near the top of the article appears to be fairly imprecise, badly designed (a lot of white space) and also has a Northern Cyprus flag on it for some reason that I'm not sure of. Is it possible to get a map that looks more like Wikipedia standard, and with the inclusion of a flag justified, or it removed? Nach0king (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

the phrase "a state with limited international recognition" sounds nice but doesn't tell the whole truth
The phrase "is part of Northern Cyprus, a state with limited international recognition" hides the fact the ONLY country that recognises it is the country that created it illegally in the first place. This is relevant. The reader should know "Northern Cyprus" or the "TRNC" has been declared "legally invalid" by the UN ( Resolution 541) and is a territory that was ethnically-cleansed of it's huge indigenous Greek majority. Any suggestions for a replacement phrase ? HelenOfOz (talk) 09:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please stop your chauvanist talk of ethnically cleansing, as the population exchange was made on a UN sponsored agreement. Secondly, the words "ethnic cleansing" only reminds me of the Akritas Plan, EOKA, EOKA B etc and of course the Bloody Christmas in Cyprus. Last but not the least, if any person is so interested to read about a small Turkish Cypriot exclave on the island, they will sure read all the other info about Cyprus and the TRNC before. If they come to this page first, they will go after here to Northern Cyprus; don't worry... --E4024 (talk) 09:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * E4024, the Turkish army committed many atrocities and rapes which forced the Greek Cypriots to flee in terror. The north was "cleansed" of most of it's Greek Cypriots during the August invasion. That's why I wrote "ethnic cleansing". If you have another word for the "ethnic cleansing" then let's hear it. 150,000 Greek Cypriots fled to the south but many thousands were trapped behind the Turkish frontline. The "population exchange" was an exchange only for the "enclaved" populations trapped in the wrong territory. Greek Cypriots. trapped in the north, were exchanged for the Turkish Cypriots trapped in the south. This was done to avoid revenge attacks from irregulars in case fighting broke out again. The "population exchange" had nothing to do with the 150,000 Greek Cypriots who fled in August 1974. Anyway, thanks for the tip off. There doesn't seem to be a Wiki page for the population exchange in 1975. I'll create it when I have some time. HelenOfOz (talk) 10:34, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what your concept of "ethnic cleansing" is. This Wiki article may help you. The current version does not talk about Turkish Cypriots. Maybe you should edit it. HelenOfOz (talk) 10:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I have so many replies to that but not the enough time. The key word is "double standards" though... --E4024 (talk) 10:51, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll debate with you here if you like but it would be more productive if go to the relevant articles, argue your case and/or do the edits. If I can make a suggestion, start with the Ethnic cleansing article. I'm looking forward to reading your contributions. HelenOfOz (talk) 11:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Reality
In his recent edits, E4024 has engaged in personal attacks and accused me of "distorting reality". Could someone please tell me what in this edit is false ? Masri145 (talk) 07:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Masri, instead of getting into an edit war with E4204 go to the States with limited recognition article and inform the editors that there is something inherently wrong with legitimacy coming ONLY from the creator of a state. There is no other state like the TRNC in the world. The criteria for inclusion should be changed to "recognised as a state by at least one other state that is not it's creator and sponsor". The TRNC is in a class by itself.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by HelenOfOz (talk) 08:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I see your point. TRNC is definately a unique case as no-one other than the invading country supports its independence. Thanks for pointing this out. I'll see you at the other talk page. Masri145 (talk) 08:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The reality is there, on the island of Cyprus, with its full fledged democracy. It is called TRNC and is a model of democratic state building in its region. I recommend you two to write an article, together, on canvassing... --E4024 (talk) 09:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Canvassing - to examine carefully; investigate by inquiry; discuss; debate. (www.dictionary.com)  Thanks for your encouragement, E4204 HelenOfOz (talk) 09:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

POV intro
The intro does not take into account these important facts


 * 1. Its considered occupied territory of the RoC, by the international community
 * 2. The TRNC is recognised only by Turkey.
 * 3. That the exclave sits separate from the rest of the TRNC.

As per consensus reached (through long discussions) in other articles about the NPOV phrasing of the Cyprus situation (see Nicosia) I propose the current wording:

''Kokkina (Greek: Κόκκινα, Turkish: Erenköy) is a village in the northwest of Cyprus. It is hemmed in on three sides by mountainous territory, with the Mediterranean sea (Morphou Bay) on its northern flank.Considered by the international community as occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus since the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, it is currenty under the control of the self-proclaimed Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, a disputed breakaway region whose independence is recognized only by Turkey.Kokkina was one of the Turkish Cypriot enclaves prior to the invasion. The exclave sits separated from the rest of Cyprus' occupied territory and is a place which has special symbolic significance for the Cypriots because of the events of August 1964.''

Note that we'll also need some citations for the "symbolic signifiance for the Cypriots" part as I doubt thats it is the case. Masri145 (talk) 09:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Exclaves are always separate from the main body. This is why Erenköy is an "exclave" or the TRNC. (In a way reminds the case of British exclaves on the island.) Oppose the proposal -which had been tried in many occasions to impose into the article- by the same user as his personal choice... --E4024 (talk) 09:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And the reason for opposing the other two? Just don't like it? Masri145 (talk) 10:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it is worth keeping in mind that this article isn't about Northern Cyprus, or a divided capital like Nicosia. The general political situation should probably be kept short, with focus on information specific to this area. The proposed seems to unduely emphasise the general situation. How is this an improvement on "the internationally unrecognised Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", which immediately throws into stark light the fact that TRNC control has not been recognised? CMD (talk) 13:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"Unduly emphasize the general situation"? What are you talking about? I have some news for you. This is no special place CMD. It's one of the many villages where the status is the same as TRNC, Nicosia etc. The intro text as it stands is far from consensus as its hiding important historical facts. I'm repeating myself again and again (please next time do bother to read my comments before your reply)....the improvement in my suggestion is that it takes into account these facts:
 * 1. Its considered occupied territory of the RoC, by the international community
 * 2. The TRNC is recognised only by Turkey

Plain historical facts, not mentioned in the current text. This wording is the consensus reached for the status of northern cyprus in other articles. I can't think of any reason (other than gross twisting of historical facts) for not mentioning the full situation on every related article. Masri145 (talk) 05:11, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That it's not a special place is my entire point. There's no need to rehash a long thing about the status of Northern Cyprus on each article about a place on Northern Cyprus. In the same way, we don't say "Limassol is a city in the south of Cyprus, a sovereign state in that declared independence from the United Kingdom in 1960", or some similar variation. I have read everything above, despite your assertions to the contrary (this section's not very long). The point of your additions not being specifically about Kokkina stands. This isn't about the TRNC or the RoC, so specifics on the status of those entities belong to those articles. CMD (talk) 16:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

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