Talk:Kretek

History
what about some more history? Kreteks only seem to be widely used in two countries, Indonesia and US.. How did they get to USA?


 * Good idea. Although I don't know the answer.  Perhaps I'll make up a to-do list relating to Kreteks so hopefully those that do know can fill in the information. -- Ari 20:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They are also widely available in Canada at most upscale smoke shops. I wouldn't be surprised if they could be found all over the world. Soosed 05:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * They're also widely smoked in Brazil in (gosh I hate that word) hipster circles and nightclubs. Easily available in pretty much any newsstand. I actually thought they were really really light menthols because I only see girls smoking them, so when I decided to have a box around to smoke in (snip irrelevant existential rant where I have to take antipsychotics) I chose a Djarum Black Dnavarro (talk) 17:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

health effects
I should mention, I believe it's completely NPOV to say "Don't smoke cigarettes" in the Health Effects section. Imagine the following conversation:


 * "Doctor, doctor, every time I put this thing in my lungs, my lungs start bleeding. What should I do?"


 * "Don't put that thing in your lungs."

This is true whether the thing is a knife or cigarette smoke. The Dogandpony 12:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Possibly true, although the health effects are discussing dangers beyond normal cigarettes. "don't smoke cigarettes" would fit a bit better on the cigarettes page.  Similar to "don't drink and drive" isn't on every type of liquor article. -- Ari 14:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That and considering that there are few legitimate, fully-fledged tests involving Kreteks, it is uncertain the extent of its health side effects. Taking this into consideration, smoking any kind of tabacco can have anything but positive effects on your lungs. "Don't smoke cigs" is a straight forward, irrational assumption. In my opinion, "Don't smoke" shouldn't be something found in an online dictionary, rather something found on an anti-tabacco propaganda.


 * "Don't Smoke" is not NPOV anyway, because "try to have good health" is not neutral inherently, so anything towards this goal is neither neutral. One can easily have the "quality over quantity" point of view, especially if one does not believe that any amount of health improvement will grant immortality. At that point, you're going to die anyway, and it would be far better to die at 40 thinking "Wow, that was fun!" than at 110 thinking "well, shit... that sucked. but I got a lot of it." Since whether or not one should embrace the philosophy that longevity is superior to enjoyment of vices is a biased point of view, no argument towards such an end can be NPOV, either. 96.225.201.101 (talk) 05:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I love their flavour and smoke them all the time, but never inhale them. It is possible to enjoy them sensibly.

208.87.248.162 (talk) 01:56, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Our Old Friends the Citationistas.
If you demand a citation for the (clearly outrageous) claim that cloves burn more slowly than regular cigarettes, try fucking smoking one. You people have gone way too far. I doubt there are any studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals regarding the time required to smoke a clove; similarly, there are no such studies about the colour of the sky, the Pope's religion, or whether bears defecate in the woods. Wormwoodpoppies 22:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow didn't notice someone put {fact} all over the place. If no one else does I'll eventually go through and add citations or delete useless tags.  Interestingly there is a source that is already in the article"Average time to smoke the clove cigarette (549 s) and number of puffs (15.1) were significantly greater than own brand"  -- Ari 23:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It IS true that clove cigarettes burn slower than ordinary cigarettes, especially Djarum Black. Some cloves burn faster than others, for example Djarum Menthol or Cherry burns somewhat faster than the black. Wormpoppies has apparently never smoked a Djarum Black.


 * Given the boldness and clarity with which he stated his claim, I'm sure he has; in fact, I think it likely that it might even be the only kretek he has smoked due to their relative unavailability in the North American smoking market. He was only comparing clove cigarettes to standard tobacco cigarettes and correctly identifying the whole matter as a moot point since everything from cigarette length, filter density, personal smoking habits and even the quality of the original roll, machine or no, will vary the results. --  Randall00  Talk 23:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In-line citations are valuable and if reference reliable material can only help an article. Whether or or not the request for citations on the relative burning speed of cloves is reasonablee, it is but one request in the article. The others seem to be more than reasonable, and there is arguably scope for more. But one step at a time. Citation requests don't have to be answered immediately, they do NOT change the information, they hopefully trigger a reader to contribute if they know about the topic, they remind us that we cannot always believe everything we read and we must use our own discretion, and they are no reason to get upset over. What's the big deal??? See Citing_sources - read that and people are hopefully more comfortable with the whole idea of citing reliable references. --Merbabu 22:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Lots of "[citation needed]" clutters the article though. 213.65.178.113 16:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Find the citations then. Or the info can be removed.--Merbabu 16:48, 2 December

Clove Cigarettes in Popular Culture
It's stated that it's important in "goth, punk and indie subcultures", yet it shows no examples. I plan on adding some references, and contributions, espicially in way of citations or sources would be greatly appreaciated. FerventDove 18:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC) 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never known them to be a feature in any subculture, excepting perhaps the "kretek-smoking" subculture derived from the product itself. --  Randall00  Talk 02:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been quite the opposite for me. I never saw anyone kreteks before my first show. Here, they talk about it's use in goth and punk subcultures, I can't seem to source anything for indie or emo. FerventDove 05:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: just so you know, the link FerventDove provided above ("Here,") is no longer a working link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.186.80 (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * There was a funny "How To Trap a Goth" guide I saw on the internet a few years ago that mentioned using them to keep your trapped goth healthy, and the only person I've met who actually smokes them is a fellow punk. Of course, that isn't a citation and not enough for the article, but the claim does seem to hold some merit.  Ungovernable Force  Poll: Which religious text should I read? 05:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

As an African American male I have noted that there are quite a few kretek smokers in our population. Especially in college environments for some reason. I don't recall ever being at a party (being a kretek smokoer myself) finding them in short supply. Now not being around that same group of smokers they are not as readily available but still accessable nonetheless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.198.150.245 (talk) 04:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The ubiquitous goth and clove cigarette stereotype? Citation? go to goth/industrial night at your local club (chances are, at least one person will light one up during the night)! Or merely google 'goth' and 'clove'. While not as essential as wearing black, cloves in the Gothic subculture are roughly analogous to menthol's use in the broader Hip-Hop culture (though I find the above comment intriguing). Whether or not per-capita studies, were they done, ever to prove a significantly higher usage in the dark subcultures (and I suspect usage has tapered significantly, alongside conventional tobacco, with the rise of the anti-smoking campaigns and smoke-free culture in the past decade or more) - the stereotype is perhaps worth noting nonetheless. The page seems woefully incomplete to me as is. Put a "citation needed" next to the info for now? I can't seem to come up with any quotable material flipping through a few books of mine on the subject. Then again, seeing as the absinthe page has no mention of the subculture, maybe it is in good form not to mention such ancillary things? At most, a passing mention is all I feel is warranted regardless... Khirad (talk) 16:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose not being a goth, I have a harder time seeing the connection and the only exposure that I and the people I know have to clove cigarettes doesn't seem to be tied to anything more significant than an appreciation for an interesting smoke. Maybe I speak naively, but I think that the association with goth culture is really just a by-product of the fact that they are the world's most prevalent black smokes, not because they are kreteks. --  Randall00  Talk 23:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Toxic emmissions are a bit incorrect...
Holding a package of Canadian Dunhill Special reserve, a smoke that is considered fairly strong here. Toxic emmissions are a fair bit lower, than a pack of Djarum blacks. Both packages are king size, the Dunhill smoke is about 4mm shorter than the kretek.

Emissions Dunhill\Kretek in mg per unit

Tar                 12-33 \ 42.2-76 Nicotine          1.2-3.0 \ 1.88-3.39 Carbon monoxide     12-32 \ 24.8-42.4 Formaldehyde   0.082-0.23 \ 0.09-0.2 Hydrogen cyanide 0.12-0.34 \ 0.323-0.618 Benzene       0.047-0.096 \ 0.110-0.195 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.6.93.239 (talk) 07:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Interesting. Do you have a source? -- Ari 17:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Canadian tabacco laws require toxic emmissions to be printed on every package, all figures were taken from that info on the outside of the box. 207.6.93.239 02:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

lung bleeding concerns and slow burning quality
I have long been aware, long enough that the source has faded from memory, that the reason for the stories of clove cigs causing lungs to bleed is because it was true. Pesticides and herbicides which have been deemed unsafe in America are often still manufactured and sold overseas, particularly in third world countries where chemical companies often have unmitigated power. It is my recollection that in the mid to late 80's youth smoking cloves and coughing up blood were a common enough occurence in my sphere of friends....I began smoking them later. It was reported in less mainstream media that it was the application of one of these pesticides on the tobacco crops in Indonesia that was making its way into the lungs of American youth. Despite strongarming efforts by the chemical companies in Indonesia to resist the change of practice and hence loss of sales, the desire to mitigate dropping sales of the cig product in America won out and the chems no longer were used...though replaced by others which have yet to be demonstrated as having a bearing on human health by the FDA.

As to postings regarding cloves being slower burning, it is not only true but one of the intended traits of the product. Traditionally they are passed around a table and lightly puffed on by persons during a meal as a means to dampen the effects of one food from interfering with the ability to taste another...particularly when the foods have different hot spices from each other. Ever been the only clove smoker at a table of diners who fried their mouths on very spicy curry? You step outside, and get the only benefit of smoking cloves...a reprieve from the spice burn and the ability to not only continue painless eating but to still be able to distinguish the flavors of the food.24.21.184.130 03:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a common belief but so far I have seen no evidence to support it. In the '80s there was an anti-clove campaign after a few isolated deaths but the evidence pointing to kreteks was small and I have yet to see a study showing them to cause bleeding anymore than other cigarettes (as coughing up blood is common with heavy standard cigarette smoking as well). -- Ari 03:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Tar Levels (Under Health effects topic)
As an ex-smoker and tobacco collector I have many packets of Kreteks. As the article states Djarum blacks for export have 10-12mg of Tar and 1mg of Nicotine.

Kreteks in indonesia have much higher tar / nicotine content to their exported versions, Djarum blacks are 25mg Tar / 1.6mg Nictotine. The indonesian Fastal-5's have 48mg of tar, 2.6mg of Nicotine.

I've added that the indonesian verions contain more tar than the exported versions but i'm not sure why, is it due to tax, country restrictions or something else? If somone fonud out they can take the addition and make a new section about differences between indonesian versions / us versions.

Neosophist 12:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The amount of Tar and Nicotine being various like this is a consideration of much concern for smokers who love cloves. Have there been any samples taken on imports to prove the Tar/Nicotine content? Are the samples repeated over time? I use these cigs rarely because they invariably make my chest hurt if I try to smoke them regularly. Are we being told it's 10 mg when it's actually 25 or higher? Where's the consumer confidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.147.211 (talk) 19:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The current article mentions two different amounts for tar and nicotine for Canada!! Someone please fix this! --70.138.88.209 (talk) 21:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

NPOV in the Legal Staus Section
The line

"The bill was motivated by concerns that flavored cigarettes, such as kreteks, were cutting into the market share of traditional cigarettes sold by large tobacco firms which had effective lobbyists"

Seems to take a very cynical view of lobbyists and should either be cited as a fact or changed to reflect a more neutral point of view

Standmatt 05:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)standmatt


 * I agree. While it's pretty obvious based on stats the claims of "for the children" was bogus and it was based more around lobbying, that line is POV and needs to be changed. -- Ari 05:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that it is also unreferenced made me remove it and the tag. Be Bold :-) --Merbabu 08:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I have heard that is some states kreteks are being sold as cigars, and therefore remain legal. Can anyone confirm this? --69.224.127.33 (talk) 06:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I just purchased a pack of Djarum Black "cigars" a few days ago. I live in Portland, OR. They don't taste anything like they used to though, so I just went ahead and imported a bunch from Indonesia.PiccoloNamek (talk) 00:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

History Source
I wonder if the paragraph on the invention of kretek/clove cigarettes is based on the background on p. 129 of "A Goth Bible" by Nancy Kilpatrick? The facts presented sound quite similar. At any rate, I think the Goth Bible entry on cloves could be used as a source on their role in the goth subculture (reliable sources on things like goth culture are hard to come by). Just a thought if someone wants to start fleshing out the role of kreteks outside Indonesia. 71.126.173.97 (talk) 08:30, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Fiberglass in Kreteks?
In my own personal research concerning Kreteks (Djarum Blacks in particular), I have come across many claims that Kreteks contain Fiberglass. A simple google search will prove this a viable issue. My own attempts at locating a verifiable answer have proven fruitless. I believe that this is an issue pertinent to Kretek, and deserves to be sought out and published. 147.253.166.19 (talk) 06:12, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Fiberglass is a common urban legend, in the past it has been claimed to be in Menthols, Lip balm, even tampons. You can read about it on snopes.  [Fiberglass in menthols].  This appears to be an extension of Fiberglass in menthols which is also baseless.  -- Ari (talk) 19:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Warning Labels in USA?
I know this isn't the place to ask questions, but since there are several smokers in here ... do keteks sold in the USA sport the standard warning labels which are required on regular cigarettes? If so, a picture of same would add visual interest to this article. (Regarding history/goths/etc, in 1984 I knew "nonconformist" college kids who smoked clove cigarettes, mistakenly believing they were "safe". Just for the record.) Tkech (talk) 08:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality
"Googling domestic cigarettes also suggests that 90% of all cigarette tobacco used by most cigarette companies use licorice to mellow the taste of the tobacco. This would count as both an additive and flavoring which would mean Big Tobacco is still getting away with breaking FDA law."

Damn hippies. Someone change this or the POV warning stays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.103.240.119 (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello there big tobacco internet PR man! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.122.119 (talk) 19:31, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I erased that because it was talking about regular tobacco cigarettes, and not kreteks. the so-called "Big Tobacco" companies don't produce kreteks. I also deleted it because it has no source, and because of the words "googling" and "most". You can't cite a google search as a source. 209.56.116.146 (talk) 01:22, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The passage in question seems to have been deleted. I'll remove the "neutrality disputed" tag. —Bkell (talk) 20:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

References.
I'm not understanding why the reflists were being removed and no controversial sourcing removal. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Separate Subject
Hello,

can "Measures Affecting the Production and Sale of Clove Cigarettes" make separately from "Kretek"? Measures Affecting the Production and Sale of Clove Cigarettes is an international economic case that I would like to write as a case, not a noun like kretek.

Many thanks

BP02Aveline (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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