Talk:Leno (disambiguation)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved, Leno redirects to Jay Leno, hatnote placed on Jay Leno.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 23:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

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Leno → Leno (disambiguation) — So that Leno can redirect to Jay Leno, who is clearly, by any measure, the primary topic for the term. Jay Leno absolutely dominates the results of a Google search for "Leno" (admittedly that's not a very objective measure at this moment, but I'd be amazed if the other Lenos were any more prominent a few months ago) and using the statistics at [1] to measure pageviews, Jay Leno had about 70,000 views in December, compared to about 1,000 views for the most popular of any of these other topics. (And this month, the number of views for Leno skyrocketed on the exact same day that views for Jay Leno skyrocketed, the day the Tonight Show kerfluffle started.) I'm honestly amazed that the redirect hasn't been put in place earlier. Propaniac (talk) 00:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Weak oppose Leno is usually referred to as "Jay Leno", so keeping the dab at primary avoids cluttering the header of the Jay Leno article with hatnotes. 76.66.197.17 (talk) 05:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Even if it's true that Jay Leno is usually referred to by his full name (which I don't think is true), that's irrelevant here. The question is what topic "Leno" on its own is most commonly used to refer to. And since Jay Leno currently has zero hatnotes, and we would be changing that to one hatnote, I don't think that's a very good argument; if you want to ban hatnotes altogether, opposing this move is not the way to do it. Propaniac (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. I thought "Leno" would usually be used in reference to the TV show, not the person. But The Tonight Show with Jay Leno isn't even listed on the page. I would say, "I saw it on Leno", but I wouldn't refer to the comedian as "Leno" alone. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree it makes sense to add the two shows bearing Jay Leno's name to this page. But obviously, those shows would be referred to as "Leno" because they're hosted by Jay Leno. Also, they're both linked right at the top of Jay Leno in the lede paragraph, and the links are probably even easier to locate quickly there than they would be on this disambig page. Someone who enters "Leno" looking for one of the shows would suffer no additional inconvenience by being redirected to the Jay Leno article than to the disambig page. Propaniac (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Support MOS:DABSUR says in part "Persons who have the disambiguated term as surname or given name should not be mixed in with the other links unless they are very frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g. Elvis, Shakespeare)". Thus the first question is, "Is Jay Leno frequently referred to simply as Leno?" If the answer is "No", Jay Leno should not even be on the disambiguation page, except in a "Persons named Leno" section per MOS:DABSUR, and is not eligible to be a primary topic. If the answer "Yes" is then according to Propaniac's initial assertions, Jay Leno should be the primary topic, although there is the complication of his shows. stats.grok.se statistics suggest Jay Leno's page is much more frequently visited than those of his shows. Culturally I am not in a good place to evaluate these questions, but I would say probably yes, Jay Leno is very frequently referred to as "Leno" and yes, Jay Leno is "much more likely than any other, and more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader clicks the 'Go' button for that term" (i.e. for "Leno"), hence weak support. --MegaSloth (talk) 16:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support. The primary topic of "Leno" is covered by the article Jay Leno. Since that article is correctly titled "Jay Leno", Leno should redirect there. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose. If this page gets very few hits, then it seems like there is no need. At best Jay Leno should be the first link on this page. --J Clear (talk) 20:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm baffled by this argument. Relatively few people arrive at this page, so we shouldn't try to best meet the needs of the people who do arrive at this page? Propaniac (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Outside the United States, where people are less familiar with his omnipresence, he would always be referred to as Jay Leno (that's if we bothered to refer to him at all). It would never occur to anyone overseas to search for him under simply Leno. Strangely though, we would know who Letterman was! (Bet he doesn't use that bit on the show!) Skinsmoke (talk) 11:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
  • This is totally irrelevant because there's no indication that a lot of people outside the United States would use the word "Leno" to refer to any other usage. If zero people in France say "Leno" to mean Jay Leno, and 5 people in France say "Leno" to mean the stream, and 1,000 people in the U.S. say "Leno" to mean Jay Leno, the decision about what to do with Leno should not be made on the basis of what people in France are doing. ~~
• Support The stats are fairly overwhelming, here.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 03:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support Nominator makes a convincing case that Jay Leno is the primary topic for the term "Leno". Ucucha 11:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Lest I be accused of bias, let me assure you that I can't stand Leno. I'm a Letterman fan. (And see, it didn't even CROSS MY MIND to write "Jay Leno" because everybody knows that's who "Leno" refers to!) Propaniac (talk) 00:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
• I'm undecided at present. The fact that the Jay Leno page gets such a large volume of traffic while the Leno disambiguation page gets so little by comparison suggests that the comedian (or his shows) are not that commonly referred to as simply "Leno". But on the other hand, I agree that none of the other pages listed here are even remotely close in terms of prominence. older ≠ wiser 17:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
• So Jay is more popular than a god? Remember Jay, this is CC-BY-SA 3.0, so don't forget the credit when you use the line on the show. --J Clear (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
  • The god is primarily known as Lero. Even the article on Lero doesn't mention that anyone refers to the god as Leno, and he therefore shouldn't even be listed here. And for what it's worth, the article on Lero (which is two sentences long) got only 223 hits last December, so yes, it appears that Jay Leno was over 300 times as popular in December 2009 (using "popular" to indicate a level of interest, which is what we're talking about here).
  • Incidentally, the history of Lero suggests that he's not actually known as Leno; the god is just so obscure that whoever created the article made a mistake and thought his name was Leno instead of Lero. Propaniac (talk) 17:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
• Every single argument against the move has been based on completely bad, wrong, faulty reasoning. The relevant question here is: when people enter/use the term "Leno," can we determine they are more likely to be referring to Jay Leno than any of the other topics? And the opposing arguments have been:
  • People referring to Jay Leno are more likely to use his full name. Irrelevant. It doesn't matter how most people refer to Jay Leno. We're talking about what people are referring to when they just say "Leno."
  • Not a lot of people apparently use just "Leno" to refer to any topic. Irrelevant. If we're not going to try to find the best solution for those who do just use "Leno", why don't we just send them to any random article? Why not just delete the page altogether, and any other page that gets fewer than some arbitrary number of hits?
  • (A comment, not an opposing vote) "Leno" may be more likely to refer to the two TV shows hosted by Leno. This would be a poor reason to oppose, since a) the shows would obviously be referred to as "Leno" based on their being hosted by Jay Leno, and b) people searching for those shows would be no worse off by going to the host's page rather than this one (either way, it's going to be one extra click to the show article).
• I hope that whoever closes this move request is able to use discretion to recognize that the opposing votes are based on very poor arguments (and none have responded to my explanations of why those arguments are very poor), while the supporting votes actually address the relevant issue here. Propaniac (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• that Jay Leno gets more hits that any other entry on the dab page is irrelevant as well, since that has nothing to do with the term "Leno", only deals with the term "Jay Leno". That Jay Leno has a lot of hits does not mean that Leno means Jay Leno. It only means that Jay Leno means Jay Leno. 70.29.211.138 (talk) 05:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

  • When there's such a huge disparity (35x in this case) between the number of hits received by one topic and the number of hits received by the others, it's perfectly valid to use that as supporting evidence that users who search for a term that could apply to any of the topics are more likely to be searching for the much more popular one. Propaniac (talk) 14:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment As I mentioned in my original statement, the traffic for this page has skyrocketed during the exact period that Jay Leno's been more prominent in the news. The effect is even more obvious now. I would really hope that debunks any assertion that people don't use the term "Leno" to find Jay Leno's article. Propaniac (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.