Talk:Leopard complex

Have faith
I accidentally published this article before I was really prepared to do so. All the same, it now exists, and I'll be working on getting it up to par.Countercanter (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Things worth mentioning...
There are some things that are worth mentioning but which I did not work into the article: confluence of spots/roaned areas that appear to follow the rib outlines or at least form vertical stripes; arrangement/orientation of leopard spots that suggest zebra striping (there was once a lovely image of this online), and lightning marks. Countercanter (talk) 19:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Toss out some links to photos and sources, we can play with it. I can't say I've noticed the vertical stuff you descibe much on appys.   Could some of this be brindle??  I'd get a kick out of seening photos...   Montanabw (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "confluence of roaned areas" In the last link, see the photo bottom row, 2nd from right captioned "Few spot with rib markings" Also see:
 * Lightning marks is just a term, but the other neat thing I remember is this: If you asked me my opinion, I'd say that part of these processes piggy-backs on currently unused genetics that make stripes. This may not make any sense, but say the embryo expresses KIT using processes that follow the migration of skin cells (which is true). An interruption at a rather late stage means that the last places the skin cells migrate to (extremities and the midline) are unpigmented. This we see all the time in white markings from stars through Sb1. Suppose that similarly, the gene that the Lp mutation is on uses the same pathways that have, in the past, been responsible for stripes. Lp seems to me to make the pigment cells go "Blip, blip, blip"...so the blips might follow the stripey pattern. It's all super-cool stuff :) But anyways, I just wanted to throw the spots-and-stripes thing out there for kicks. Countercanter (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I have seen that rib cage shading on Appies, now that I see examples, though it never occurred to me to link it to striping ala Duns or Quaggas. Just seemed like a variation of countershading, though are you thinking that countershading is a variation on striping?? Interesting theory.  When you get your PhD and publish, we are going to have to rewrite ALL the color articles on wiki again, you know that, don't you?  (LOL!)   However, the Brindle page looks like it's done by someone who hasn't been following the research on brindle, the horses tested at UCD appear be mostly chimeras, (see brindle), and hence while a tendency to chimerism may be hereditary (brindles are more likely to throw a brindle), it's definitely a weird thing and not terribly predictable (insert rant about bogus color breed "registries" here).  What strikes me is what they taught about horse genetics back in the 80s when I took my equine studies classes and how much has changed.  In another 10 years, who knows what they will have figured out?  Sort of amazing, really.   Montanabw (talk)


 * I meant to show you all of those things as separate factors. I don't think anybody suggested that the rib cage shading is related to striping. It's just interesting. I think the layout of SPOTS is related to striping. The Brindle page is very old but is still nicely-reasoned. Otherwise agreed ;) Countercanter (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm just somewhat blown away about the new research. Even since I started taking an interest in horse genetics stuff 3-4 years ago, it seems like it's a whole new world.   Montanabw (talk) 23:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Welsh and Connemara What The?!?
Who is this person who claims there are purebred Welsh and Connemara animals with LpC patterns? Who told them that these breeds have ever had it? On what ground does the source found these claims? AQH I'll never doubt with all those pesky ninja genetic factors, but Welsh and Connemara? Explanations please. I'm not saying it's impossible (IIRC, both breed standards disallow spotting as well as "albinos" so it could be possible there were pesky ninja spotting factors going on until they were finally weeded out) but please. Explanations. These breeds need elaboration in the article itself, they are well known for being solid. Pitke (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Beats me. Is it sourced?  If it is, we may want to review the source.  If it's unsourced, slap a "dubious" tag on it and if no one rises to the bait in a week or so, toss it.  Or, better yet, if you can find a breed standard that specifically says there are NO Lp horses allowed, cite it and put this thing to sleep for good!   Montanabw (talk) 01:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)  Never mind, it's sourced to a peer-reviewed scientific article.  May still want to look at it, and nonetheless, maybe add the caveat (if sourceable to the respective rule books) that these breeds don't allow registration of Lp horses should they crop up.   Montanabw (talk) 01:54, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Genotypes of predomestic horses match phenotypes painted in Paleolithic works of cave art
I found this in http://www.pnas.org/content/108/46/18626

Melanie Pruvost, Rebecca Bellone, Norbert Benecke, Edson Sandoval-Castellanos, Michael Cieslak, Tatyana Kuznetsova, Arturo Morales-Muñiz, Terry O'Connor, Monika Reissmann, Michael Hofreiter and Arne Ludwig

Archaeologists often argue whether Paleolithic works of art, cave paintings in particular, constitute reflections of the natural environment of humans at the time. They also debate the extent to which these paintings actually contain creative artistic expression, reflect the phenotypic variation of the surrounding environment, or focus on rare phenotypes. The famous paintings “The Dappled Horses of Pech-Merle,” depicting spotted horses on the walls of a cave in Pech-Merle, France, date back ∼25,000 y, but the coat pattern portrayed in these paintings is remarkably similar to a pattern known as “leopard” in modern horses. We have genotyped nine coat-color loci in 31 predomestic horses from Siberia, Eastern and Western Europe, and the Iberian Peninsula. Eighteen horses had bay coat color, seven were black, and six shared an allele associated with the leopard complex spotting (LP), representing the only spotted phenotype that has been discovered in wild, predomestic horses thus far. LP was detected in four Pleistocene and two Copper Age samples from Western and Eastern Europe, respectively. In contrast, this phenotype was absent from predomestic Siberian horses. Thus, all horse color phenotypes that seem to be distinguishable in cave paintings have now been found to exist in prehistoric horse populations, suggesting that cave paintings of this species represent remarkably realistic depictions of the animals shown. This finding lends support to hypotheses arguing that cave paintings might have contained less of a symbolic or transcendental connotation than often assumed.--Andreas Hausberger 18:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversano Isabella (talk • contribs)


 * I saw that study, quite interesting. We have a short paragraph on it in the article already. Should it be expanded?   Montanabw (talk) 19:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, yes!--Andreas Hausberger 07:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversano Isabella (talk • contribs)
 * What from the publication should be expanded? My concern is only not to put undue weight on the Lascaux cave paintings; over here in the states, they are used to justify the (often dubious) genetic purity and antiquity of everything from the spotted ass to whatever (grin). I'm all for accuracy, though, and much interesting stuff happening with coat color genetics, that's for sure! Montanabw (talk) 19:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Updates
Articles for updates:
 * https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/AppaloosaPattern1.php PATN-1 test
 * http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/Coat_Color/Appaloosa.asp
 * https://www.appaloosaproject.co/articles/free-articles/21-long-awaited-dna-test-for-patn1-now-available.html
 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11421946 (older, 2001 article)

New research
Discusses the genetics of the various patterns and the interaction between PATN and LP: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/39916/researchers-connect-the-dots-on-spotted-coat-color-genetics?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=breeding&utm_campaign=11-19-2017   Montanabw (talk) 18:17, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

unclear
so, are they ALL nightblind? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:3038:61B:9C6:9728:2788:D0B:F7DB (talk) 15:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)