Talk:Liam Neeson/Archive 2

Brook Shields?
They dated. I know it's not that important, but he's mentioned (given a whole sentence) in Brook's wiki page. I just thought it was interesting that he was mentioned there, and she isn't mentioned here. Change at your own discretion. -- TaylorLane bore me 23:25, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * He's one of the few men taller than she is. Quis separabit?  22:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Few men in this world have surpassed the height of 6' indeed.Kombucha (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Liam Neeson
Neeson was born William John Neeson as per Quis separabit? 22:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000553
 * http://www.tribute.ca/people/liam-neeson/1682
 * http://www.talktalk.co.uk/entertainment/film/biography/artist/liam-neeson/biography/148


 * http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/cindy_adams/blast_from_news_past_oocBt7I0HQhCvI3ABieNUN "Liam’s not short for William or anything. It’s a fine Irish name." I think Liam Neeson knows what his own name is better than those websites. There is also a source in the Early life section which confirms his name is Liam, not William.86.162.126.192 (talk) 22:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Irish?
The first line says Liam Neeson is an "Irish actor". Surely "Northern Irish" is correct? Kombucha (talk) 15:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It would be nice to have some input on this. A comment in the article says he identifies as Irish as he has a right to do according to the Good Friday Agreement (and that he is "not Northern Irish"). Does his right and choice to "identify" as Irish actually make him an Irish citizen, and how does this fit into the standards of Wikipedia, considering that the choice is largely a political one, and that in terms of actual fact he was born and raised in Northern Ireland? One consideration is that it seems the Good Friday Agreement allows the choice of either "Irish" or "British", but British citizens are identified as "Northern Irish", "English", "Scottish" or "Welsh" in their Wikipedia articles. It seems that how we identify nationality on Wikipedia is not the same as actual citizenship. Kombucha (talk) 14:51, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the above bud this has been gone through on many an occassion. Murry1975 (talk) 16:06, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

OBE in lead?
Wikipedia policy on this states: 'Post-nominal letters (honorific suffixes), other than those denoting academic degrees, should be included when they are issued by a country or widely recognizable organization with which the subject has been closely associated. Honors issued by other entities may be mentioned in the article, but should generally be omitted from the lead.' Accordingly, the OBE should be removed from after Neeson's name at the top of the article. It can be mentioned later on with other awards which he has received. At present there is no justification for an award given by one foreign country to have prominence over awards given by other foreign countries to this self-declared Irishman from Ireland. 109.77.9.249 (talk) 19:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
 * He is from Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The Order of the British Empire is an order of chivalry of the United Kingdom. Neeson clearly has a close association with the UK and, as such we include the post-nominals in the lede in accordance with the policy you referenced above. I have, accordingly, reinstated it. Wikipeterproject (talk) 23:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * See this article for supporting information and this one, which is a list of recipients from Northern Ireland in January 2011. Wikipeterproject (talk) 23:40, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither of those articles support the existence of OBE in the lead in this article; they merely confirm he got an OBE which obviously nobody is disputing. Neeson publicly identifies as Irish not British, a fact which is referenced in his own words here and by his going to Dublin rather than London to pursue his acting career. Under the Belfast Agreement, and thus under international law, all Irish people in the North of Ireland have a right to identify as Irish and not to have a British identity imposed upon them by stating that they are "closely associated" with Britain by virtue of British rule still being over the part of Ireland in which they live. By his own choice, he is an Irishman who is closely associated with Ireland, not Britain. This self-definition of Irish people should be respected, just as the British state and all reasonable people respect it. 93.107.2.119 (talk) 13:04, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * First an argument about how to define his nationality and now this? It's all becoming rather ridiculous. The policy on post nominals in the lede is very clear. When they are "issued by a country or widely recognizable organization with which the subject has been closely associated", they should be included. Here we have a very clear-cut case. It is impossible to (sensibly) argue that the subject of this article does not have a close association with Northern Ireland and, thereby, the United Kingdom. The OBE should definitely stay in the lede on that basis.Wikipeterproject (talk) 17:51, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that the WP policy only mentions "association with". One can have an association with the UK even if one self-identifies as Irish. This is not a forum for political debate - here we discuss the application of WP policy and we do it objectively and in good faith. If you want to debate the status of the Irish, you should find somewhere else to do it. Wikipeterproject (talk) 18:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * By that logic, namely the forced existence of the British state in Ireland against the will of Irish nationalists, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness and around 700,000 people in Northern Ireland have a "close association" with the British monarchy which gives this award. This is ridiculous logic. Neeson self-defines as Irish, not British. Are you disputing that? Under British, Irish and international law since 1998, a British identity cannot be imposed on him by virtue of Northern Ireland still being under British rule. He accepted a British honour in the same way he has accepted honours from other foreign countries. None of the other countries, even from the US where he has lived for many decades now, are demanding that their honours be in the intro. Why should British honours given to an Irishman who has lived all of his life in Ireland and the US be given special privilege? Why? Liam Neeson is not Terry Wogan, an Irish-born person who has lived most of his life in Britain and is, by his own definition, a British citizen. Trying to give special privilege in this article to a British award is plainly jingoistic British hijacking of a successful person who is explicitly not British. The OBE should be listed at the bottom where his other awards are listed. If anything - and I don't believe any should be in the intro - one of the Irish or US awards should be in the intro. 109.77.169.120 (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This is getting both stupid and boring. I am not going to get into an edit war and will let other editors contribute to the discussion to see if there is a consensus. I suspect that if we were to agree that OBE goes out, you will find something else in the article to argue his nationality. This debate, as well as the earlier debate about defining his nationality, seem much more about politics than application of WP policy. I'm really not interested in Irish/British politics and will not get drawn into such a debate. Is there anyone else with something to say about this? Wikipeterproject (talk) 00:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * (A personal note to our dear IP, try to use a more neutral tone when making comments here, I love how whenever an anonymous Irish Nationalist makes a point here on Wikipedia, they always have to back up their comments with little "digs" at the entire, present day British populous. "Tarnishing everyone with the same brush" sound like what you are doing, you want to try and make us all seem like Irish-hating bigots who want to "steal" all your successful people and somehow "force" an identity on you that you do not want. I have not a care in the world for the point you are trying to make about the legitimacy of the OBE being in the lede for this article, half of your posts are made up of unappreciated remarks that sound like they are trying to guilt-trip the British here into thinking they are all somehow responsible for your "woes", and thus their points are invalid and an attack on you - And bless you, but, that's exactly what your tone of writing indicates here; try and keep it a bit more neutral? Most Brits, who are a very diverse range of people, have a lot of respect for people's personal identity)
 * Wikipeterproject, any "accosiation" Liam Neeson has with the UK is minimal, and you seem to not take into account a lot of the IP's points which are actually fair points to make. Neeson should be treated like any other national figure here, non-UK, as that is what he is. End of story. I don't accuse you of any agenda unlike our dear IP, but please stop being so rigid in your arguments...

* Main issue* whether or not the OBE is included in the lead is not very important. Instantly linking its inclusion to Neeson's identity/nationality (Which are both Irish) or Citizenship (Which is American, and maybe Irish/British but no one knows for sure) is a pretty dumb thing to do. Stop making assumptions that it is somehow linked to a kind of agenda, either, that is a ridiculous assumption to make and shows nothing but paranoia on your part. Do you really think Neeson himself would have a problem with it being in the lede? Probably not, no. Is it important? No. Should it be there? As he is not British, then no. --Τασουλα (talk) 03:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I would have thought that growing up in Northern Ireland, studying there, working there and living there for more than 20 years is well and truly an "association". I don't care for the politics of nationality and the WP policy speaks only of a "close association", which is rather obvious here. The close association doesn't mean that he can't identify as Irish, American or any other nationality and I am not arguing that. All I am suggesting is that birth, ancestry, upbringing, education and work in a particular country provides, by definition, a "close association". The policy says nothing about citizenship, self-identification or anything else the IP is arguing. I just dislike it when these discussions become political when WP is not about that. Wikipeterproject (talk) 04:02, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

As pointed out above an OBE is only presented to UK and Commonwealth Realm citizens. Liam Neeson was awarded his in 2000 and collected it in 2002. At no point does it state that it is an honorary award as given to Arsene Wenger and Gerard Houllier. There is no evidence that he has renounced his citizenship. On the contrary the fact that he had "not been so nervous since I met Muhammad Ali" when he met the queen is not the actions of a republican. I you want to cast doubt on his citizenship then you have to back it up with evidence of which there seems to have been very little. Eckerslike (talk) 13:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Nice quote from Neeson from the article above: "I don't want to get involved in Irish politics; I would get into trouble." Perhaps we can learn something from that! :) Wikipeterproject (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

1) He did say "Irish politics", not "British politics" which is an indicator that your "close association" between Neeson and the British polity which gave him that award is not as close as you'd like to think.

2) Neeson "grew up in Northern Ireland" because, well, that's the part of Ireland that he was born in. His surname, also, is a native Irish name from that part of the country which far predates British rule here. Why you think his existence is some sanction of British rule in Ireland is bizarre in the extreme. By your "close association" logic every Irish person who has ever being forced to live under British colonial occupation in their part of Ireland since the Treaty of Mellifont in 1603 qualifies under your interpretation of "close association". What next? Prisoners have a "close association" with their jailer? Slaves have a "close association" with their masters? Can you be any more extreme in your interpretation of "close association"?

3) What we do have is Neeson's self-definition as an Irishman, as well as his escape from the sectarianism of Ballymena to his cultural homeland in the Abbey Theatre in Dublin - not to the might of London and its far greater population and opportunity. By virtue of his birth under British rule in Ireland, they gave him the OBE. His self-definition, however, is repeatedly Irish and not British. As such, this British award should be placed with the rest of his awards in this article, i.e. not in the lede.

4) To the patronising individual (who seems to enjoy generalising about Irish people) who refers to me as "our dear IP", it should be noted that there is a cabal of British posters who, like their state's wretched tabloids, have a commitment to Wikipedia which revolves entirely around propagating and defending British nationalist ideals and claims in articles. It's most clearly seen by their insertion of the words "British Isles" into articles, but it is also routinely demonstrated by claiming non-British people as British. As Brenda Fricker famously said when she won an Oscar, 'If I were lying drunk in Heathrow Airport I'd be Irish; when I win an Oscar I'm British". This insertion of a British award, above all other awards, in the lede of a Liam Neeson article is motivated by the precise same jingoistic mentality. And any of you with a scintilla of honesty would have the decency to acknowledge the politics of what's going on. 109.77.169.120 (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow. I am neither Irish nor British and have no interest in this, except to apply WP policy properly. I think that any fair minded person would understand that, for better or worse, Northern Ireland has a close association with the UK and Neeson, also for better or worse, has a close association to Northern Ireland. I really don't think there is much more to be said about it than that. I am certainly not trying to offend you or the Irish and apologise if I have done so. Wikipeterproject (talk) 01:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)


 * On closer reading of the article, it seems to me (if I am reading it correctly) that Neeson lived, studied and worked in Northern Ireland until 1977, when he moved to Dublin (aged about 25) "after he was offered a part in a production at the Project Arts Centre" and then moved to London in, or around, 1980 and stayed there until 1987 when he moved to the US. It seems like the "escape from the sectarianism of Ballymena" didn't happen quickly and was rather short-lived! Wikipeterproject (talk) 01:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Neeson's Secondary School
Dundonald has been added after the name of his school but I believe this to be incorrect. school name educated at St Patrick's College (now St Patrick's, Dundonald),

The school was called "St Patrick's Voluntary Secondary Intermediate" and is now called "St. Patrick's College Ballymena."

source: http://www.stpatricksballymena.com/archives/83-memories-of-st-patricks-19591960

Ciaranjordan (talk) 18:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Nationality
Aside from the fact that one's own opinion on nationality does not qualify someone as that nationality, if Neeson cam be argued as Irish he can certainly be argued as British. If he is stated as being an 'Irish actor' there is absolutely no reason why he should not be also stated as a British actor.Bunnyman78 (talk) 23:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

"I'm still a proud Irishman, of course, but I've become an American citizen". No mention of being proud to be British is there? Since the Good Friday Agreement gives people the right to be Irish or British, he is quite entitled to be Irish. Therefore I have removed the infobox field addition. O Fenian (talk) 12:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * In addition, this Interview with Liam Neeson (2004): 'LIAM: Well that seems vulnerable to go into because it’s personal. But let’s just say, I’m Irish. I grew up in the 1950s. Religion had a very tight iron fist.' Captain Fearnought (talk) 14:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

That's how it works in the UK. You have the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish. Few people refer to themselves as British. The Good Friday agreement has no standing in law and does not mean that you're an Irish citizen as just because you call yourself Irish. There is no evidence that he has claimed Irish citizenship. The fact is that he accepted an OBE in 1999 and they are only awarded to British citizens. Eckerslike (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Read. The. Good. Friday. Agreement. Then. Read. What. Liam. Neeson. Says.


 * Or if that is too difficult for you. "Irish actor Liam Neeson" versus "British actor Liam Neeson", standard Google search. 288,000 for Irish (372 unique, which is the better measure), 88,900 for British (40 unique). Google News search including archives. 172 for Irish, 4 for British. Google Books search. 68 for Irish, 0 for British!


 * If you want to claim there is no evidence he has Irish nationality, I will point out there is equally no evidence he still has British nationality.


 * The sources are overwhelmingly clear, as is Neeson himself, he is Irish. O Fenian (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Eckerslike, you're completely wrong about OBEs being awarded only to British citizens. See the thread below.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   16:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "Scottish Actor Sean Connery" 88,900 and British  28,600. "Irish politician Ian Paisley" politician Ian Paisley%22 gives 509 and with British politician Ian Paisley%22 0 results.  Need I go on or should shall we agree that Google is crap way of establishing facts. It is up to you to prove he has renownced his British citizenship. Eckerslike (talk) 17:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ian Paisley was born in Ireland, whats your point?Sheodred (talk) 09:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Wrong. It is up to you to obtain consensus for the change, and since Liam Neeson does not identify as British that will not happen any time soon. O Fenian (talk) 17:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Eckerslike, you're confusing various things. Sean Connery is a United Kingdom citizen, but his nationality is Scottish, because he self-identifies as such.  Liam Neeson is or at least was a United Kingdom citizen, but his nationality is Irish, because he self-identifies as such.  But the awarding of the OBE or any other British honour does not, of itself, mean anything about either the recipient's citizenship or their nationality. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   17:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

As I have pointed out the term Irish can ambiguous. It needs more than one reference to establish context.


 * When he received his Honourary Doctorate he stated that "Northern Ireland will always be my home".
 * During this Q&A he referred to the "President of Ireland" not "the president".
 * When asked about the abolition UK Film Council he repeatedly referred to "we", "our" and "the government". (Note: Dara O'Brien despite being a British resident of several years still refers to "Your" when talking about British institutions).
 * He received an OBE from the Queen in a ceremony involving all the bowing and ridiculous procrastinations that I doubt a republican Irishman would go through (I wouldn't).

Given this context it seems that when he was saying he is a "proud Irishman" he was not referring to the state. Given this the use of Irish in the lead without reference to the fact that he is from Northern Ireland and is a British citizen is misleading. Eckerslike (talk) 20:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The word Irish in the lede links to Irish people, not to any particular politico-sovereign state. That's as it should be and doesn't need any elaboration, because people from both parts of the island can legitimately call themselves "Irish".  But I've added Northern Ireland to his place of birth to make it absolutely clear where he happened to be born.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Read. The. Good. Friday. Agreement. Oh and I will add that considering he's an American citizen him using "President of Ireland" means nothing, last time I checked America has a president too.. O Fenian (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Clearly it is ambiguous as even some editors were under the impression that he was of Irish citizenship. And yes I have read the Belfast Agreement (have you). It states:-

[The participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

It does not give any details as to how the individual establishes a citizenship of each country. In fact the very next paragraph states:

The participants also note that the two Governments have accordingly undertaken in the context of this comprehensive political agreement, to propose and support changes in, respectively, the Constitution of Ireland and in British legislation relating to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

International agreements have no direct legal relevence. It is up to the government to implement the statuary requirements (in this case using the Northern Ireland Act). If they fail to do so the they are in violation of the agreement and we go back the table. The Belfast agreement does not mean that someone who says they are Irish becomes Irish by default. The normal rules of citizenship still apply.

My understanding of the legal situation according to the laws of each country is that everyone in Northern Ireland is a dual British/Irish citizen until they renounce either one. Technically, Liam Neeson is now a American/British/Irish citizen but that is a bit too complicated for the first sentence. An actor from Northern Ireland who now holds American citizenship would be a far simpler explanation. Eckerslike (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It may be going a bit far to say that "everyone in Northern Ireland is a dual British/Irish citizen until they renounce either one". We'd need a specific source for that.  Btw, the word you want is "statutory" (which pertains to statutes and laws), not "statuary" (which pertains to monuments and statues and garden gnomes).  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  22:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The relevant part is "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British", and it is clear which choice Liam Neeson has made. The part about citizenship in the agreement is a red herring since before it people were free to hold dual citizenship. Liam Neeson has chosen to identify himself as Irish, and should be recognised as such. O Fenian (talk) 22:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I quickly found about three articles saying he took American citizenship. The same articles are pretty clear that he self describes himself as an Irishman. In the absence of a WP:RS that says he had British citizenship then it should be Irish in the infobox along with American. --  Eamonnca1  TALK 02:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * @O Fenian: The relevant part is "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British", and it is clear which choice Liam Neeson has made. "Identifying" oneself as Irish (which people have always been entitled to do - the GFA fluff makes no difference) is not the same as being a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 11:29, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

This seems pretty clear-cut. As stated by the UK Border Agency, 'if you were born in the UK before 1 January 1983, you are almost certainly a British citizen. The only exception is if you were born to certain diplomatic staff of foreign missions who had diplomatic immunity'UK Border Agency's Offical Website and as stated by the Republic of Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs, 'every person born on the island of Ireland before 1 January, 2005 is entitled to be an Irish citizen'RI Department of Foreign Affairs Official Website. According to the law of both these nations: when the Good Friday Agreement was created, he was officially made a citizen of both the UK and the Republic of Ireland due to the fact he was born in Northern Ireland. He is legally a British Citizen and a Irish Citizen and unless he renounces one of them, he always will be. We have a convenient term for people in this category: Northern Irish although it isn't usually used in any real capacity, apart from describing someone within Northern Ireland. He also took American Citizenship and therefore has three different citizenships. He is British Irish American in Citizenship, If he has truly described himself as Irish, then that is his race or Ethnic Ancestry. He is by all accounts, an Irish, British Irish American. --OJSlaughter (talk) 03:32, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * He's entitled to ROI citizenship, but we have no source to indicate whether or not he has taken up this entitlement. Therefore we can only say that he is British and American. Mooretwin (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Liam Neeson is entitled to an Irish passport or a UK passport. However regardless of whether he holds 1 or both it is still correct to refer to him as Irish. You can be Irish AND British - much in the same way as you are Scottish and British (see Sean Connery as an example) Sue De Nimes (talk) 08:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Aye, but the infobox entry relates to citizenship. Hence this discussion. Mooretwin (talk) 12:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

On Jonathan Ross he referred many times to Ulster and Northern Ireland. Irish people do not use the term Ulster. Fact. Most Irish refer to Northern Ireland as The North. Or The 9 Counties. Etc... 86.145.142.210 (talk) 21:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Irish American
I've taken the liberty of amending the opening sentence to read "Irish American". The Wikipedia article on Irish Americans defines them as "citizens of the United States who can trace their ancestry to Ireland", which fits here. Being first generation American (i.e. naturalised) still meets that definition. Maybe this can also put to rest the earlier discussion about how to describe his nationality and/or heritage. Wikipeterproject (talk) 06:42, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He is not Irish American. He is an Irishman who holds American citizenship, as the article notes. The two are not the same. O Fenian (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ummm...you just provided the definition of an Irish American. An American citizen who is Irish.  I think any Irish person can be rightly proud of being Irish, but the fact is this guy is an American (citizen) who has an Irish heritage and, therefore very neatly meets the definition of "Irish American" as per the Wikipedia article on Irish Americans, albeit one with only a short American association.  Note, for comparison, that Rupert Murdoch is described as an Australian-American.  I'm not going to get into an edit war here, but some discussion towards a consensus might be good...  Wikipeterproject (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Irish American is a label almost exclusively applied to people born in American with Irish ancestry, not Irish people who have recently obtained American citizenship. O Fenian (talk) 07:41, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a reliable source that describes him as Irish-American. It also appears his full and proper name is William: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/407938/Liam-Neeson Ivor Stoughton (talk) 19:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with him being stated as Irish-American in the lede; he undeniably is after all, if he indeed has American citizenship. I may change this at a later date, if no further objections are made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.58.89 (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

No, just no! The whole X-American thing is a bit of a joke. It means nothing outside the US. Liam Neeson is most certainly not an Irish American. Wiki guidelines state that nationality should be what the subject held when they became notable. It is clear Neeson was notable long before he obtained American citizenship. As an aside if your parents were born in America you are American - not Irish American. Sue De Nimes (talk) 08:28, 15 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Where is the guieline? I don't disbelieve you, but would like to read it. Wikipeterproject (talk) 21:48, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies) Sue De Nimes (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm against fighting over tags to apply to people in the first line of bios, but he is clearly an Irishman who took American citizenship. You're playing a bit with the definition of "Irish Americans", which has a different meaning relating to communities which descended from 19th century immigrants. That's as much about identity as anything as else. Regarding his name, Wikipedia doesn't cite other encyclopaedias, and Britannica style is to use the Anglicised version of the name. We don't do that here. Best,--Ktlynch (talk) 07:44, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I accept that Irish American is best suited to long-term American citizens with Irish ancestry and therefore may not properly apply here. Wikipeterproject (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Neeson was born in the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 13:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous situation, wikipedia is not a platform for individual nationalists. The fact of the matter is that Liam Neeson was born in Great Britain. Using quotes where he identifies himself as an Irishman, does not change that fact. The Good Friday Agreement DOES NOT give anyone a carte blanche to change their citizenship by dialogue. Saying Neeson is Irish is not even an interpretation of facts, it is just not a fact at all- it's an opinion. If Neeson has been quoted as saying he is Irish or British is should have nothing to do with the factual parts of the wikipage, but instead can be included in the article if it is so extremely important.Bunnyman78 (talk) 22:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I stopped reading your ill-informed shite after you said "The fact of the matter is that Liam Neeson was born in Great Britain". The real fact of the matter is that Ballymena is not in Great Britain. 2 lines of K  303  10:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

That's extremely rude and offensive, you need to learn some manners and backbone provoking people over the internet is laughably childish. Great Britain was a tired mistake for United Kingdom. Last time I checked a map it informed me it was still the case that Northern Ireland was part of the UK, people from the UK are officially referred to as British such as are holders of a UK passport. See Demonym http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom Bunnyman78 (talk) 00:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * A "tired mistake" you happen to have made twice, and you're still exhibiting the same behaviour now. You may want to read up on the Good Friday Agreement. There's a copy here and analysis of the salient part here. The salient part being "recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose". I assume you understand what "identify themselves and be accepted as" means? In case you don't, that means if Liam Neeson identifies himself as Irish, which he does, then he is Irish. 2 lines of K  303  10:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Twice? Really? So I suppose that means no one can identify him as British then, or that we can't add 'United Kingdom' after 'Northern Ireland' -or is there something in the Good Friday Agreement that prohibits us from doing so as well? Your politically motivated 'work' here is so transparent that it's ridiculous. Your original research, personal opinions and philosophical interpretations don't count as facts. No one needs to undermine the statement that Neeson can be identified as Irish, but on the other hand you are stonewalling identification as British, just as you are doing on the Ciaran Hinds article, alas there is no loose statements by Hinds to infer that he identifies himself as British or Irish. Using Google to define someone's nationality is hilarious, especially when the first google entry that appears is this very article! Bunnyman78 (talk) 17:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Once. Twice. YA RLY!!! Could you provide a diff of me editing the Ciaran [sic] Hinds article or talk page please? 2 lines of K  303  10:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Irrelevant. Identifying oneself as Irish doesn't mean (a) that one is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, or (b) that one isn't a British citizen. Mooretwin (talk) 10:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wrong. 2 lines of K  303  10:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but it's not wrong. You need to learn to understand that a person's identity (subjective) and his or her citizenship (objective) are not the same thing. Mooretwin (talk) 10:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Again. I suggest you refer to other discussions on this page to see why your personal commentary is of no relevance. 2 lines of K  303  10:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but it's not wrong, and you simply asserting that it is "wrong" doesn't make it so. Only a fool would think that you can't identify as being Irish unless you are a citizen of the Republic of Ireland; or that you can't identify as Irish if you are a UK citizen. Nothing in any of the other discussions supports such a preposterous suggestion. Mooretwin (talk) 12:51, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes they can identify as Irish even if they are British, just show a source where he identifies as British. Not a award like Brendan Gleesonn is up for as a British actor, cant remember which one, but where Liam Neeson goes "I'm British".Murry1975 (talk) 19:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? This discussion is about the infobox, which relates to his citizenship. How he "self-identifies" is not relevant. He was born in the UK ergo he's a UK citizen. Mooretwin (talk) 21:17, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ergo he can be an Irish or British citizen, which follows the burden is on proving is he one or the other or both. This is not a hard concept to grasp really. The fact that he self defines as Irish, but doesnt self define as British shows a view of Irish, did you see Jimeoin on Live at the Apollo? Murry1975 (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No. He is a UK citizen. He can be a citizen of the ROI. We know he's the former, we don't know he's the latter unless we have some evidence. How he "self-defines" is irrelevant. It doesn't mean he is a 26-county citizen. Ballymena is as much Irish as anywhere in the South. Mooretwin (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No given that he was born on the island of Ireland means the is entitled to nbe an Irish Citizen just as much as he is entitled to be a British citizen, but if you want to change the law please do so somewhere else and stop stating %% like that. As for your last part that depends on what definition of Irish you use, as I am sure you are aware there are differences which get blurred by some on the issue. And how do you "know"? Did you find a source to state so? Please include if not. Here is some readng material for you, http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Anglo-Irish/agreement.pdf, it mentions the right to identify which you seem to contradict.Murry1975 (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * He is certainly entitled to be a 26-county citizen, as I have said. But we don't know whether or not he is, unless you or someone else provides some evidence. As regards UK citizenship, that is not an "entitlement": he simply is a UK citizen by reason of being born in the UK. That's what the law in the UK says. How do I "know" what? As for the Agreement, I've already explained that "the right to identify" is irrelevant (and also pompous and meaningless - people in Ireland don't need an international treaty to tell them they can choose their own identity): the infobox is about citizenship, not a person's "identity". Mooretwin (talk) 23:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just gave you the PDF bud, you havent read, I'm a loss to communicate with a shut mind, which reminds me of the first time I met you, no I'm not being uncivil just remembering you dismissed sources that dont fit with your view. The British and Irish governments (in your words "That's what the law in the UK") recognise his right from birth to be a citizen of both or either so it doesnt matter what you or I type here we cannot affect that outcome, what we can do is show a source for this view, I have you have not. You state UK laws says he is British I have soon you the very agreement that states otherwise with respect to that part of the UK. Now in the words of Spock "Live long and prosper".Murry1975 (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have read the Agreement many times. You should do likewise because, ironically, it is not me who has the shut mind, but rather apparently you do as you haven't addressed any of the points I have made and keep repeating falsehoods. Two points, first, the British and Irish governments do not recognise a right from birth to be a citizen of both or either; and second, even if the Agreement did say that, it wouldn't matter because under UK law he is a UK citizen. You haven't provided any source that backs up what you say. The relevant UK law is the BRitish Nationality Act 1981. Google it. Mooretwin (talk) 23:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

1998 is after 1981, the GFA which was signed into law and supersedes what came before it. Read up bud, read up.Murry1975 (talk) 00:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The irony of your "shut mind" comment increases with every post. (1) I already pointed out that the Agreement doesn't recognise a right from birth to be a citizen of both or either. (2) The 1981 Act remains in force, it hasn't been amended so as to insert your mythical claim that UK citizenship for people in NI is now somehow a "choice". (And, for your information, the GFA wasn't "signed into law": it is an international treaty and not part of UK (or ROI) law. That is why the ROI had to amend its citizenship laws to put into force commitments it made in the GFA.) Mooretwin (talk) 09:50, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * So are you saying that there is no right from birth for Irish citizenship for those born in NI? You are skipping sections you dont like. The citizenship laws were not amended there was a Constinutional referendum and the alteration and the UK amended an act from 1920, the 1981 act didnt get touched but the change supersedes anyhow whether or not directly affecting it, in relation to the entitlements of people born in NI. If you feel so strong about it write to your government they signed it into law, yes they recognise the entitlement even if you dont. And here is where I finish, WP:SHUN.Murry1975 (talk) 10:02, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * So are you saying that there is no right from birth for Irish citizenship for those born in NI?
 * No. On the contrary, I have said the opposite!
 * You are skipping sections you dont like.
 * I'm not. But just for fun, identify these sections that you claim I am skipping.
 * The citizenship laws were not amended there was a Constinutional referendum and the alteration and the UK amended an act from 1920, the 1981 act didnt get touched
 * The ROI citizenship laws were amended in 2001 by the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2001. I'm glad you now acknowledge that the 1981 Act remains in force - that's a step forward.
 * but the change supersedes anyhow whether or not directly affecting it, in relation to the entitlements of people born in NI.
 * That makes no sense. First, there is no change. Second, even if the GFA did contemplate change (which it didn't), it could only come into effect through legislation.
 * If you feel so strong about it write to your government they signed it into law, yes they recognise the entitlement even if you dont. And here is where I finish, WP:SHUN.
 * I think this is the third (maybe fourth?) time I've had to explain that (1) there is no commitment to make UK citizenship optional for people in NI; (2) under UK law, people born in NI are UK citizens; (3) even if there had been such a commitment, the GFA wasn't "signed into law", it was an international treaty, and any claimed change could only have been effected via legislation. Ironically, it appears to be you who needs to write to your government if you want it to seek to bring about the changes that you falsely believe have already been brought about! Mooretwin (talk) 10:11, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * All this is irrelevant because Liam Nesson was born in the 1950s when it was the 1948 citizenship act that was in force. So he became a UK citizen at birth under that act. Any further amendments to citizenship law only affect those who are yet to be born. Further, he accepted an OBE in 2001. Something only given to British subjects. Eckerslike (talk) 16:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Something only given to British subjects. Wrong on two counts. 1) There is no such thing as a British subject. 2) Unless of course Alain Prost and Eamonn Andrews to name just a couple are British. That's not to mention the numerous Irish people and other nationals who have accepted the highest order of the Empire (e.g. Bob Geldof, Bono and André Previn). Bjmullan (talk) 17:25, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * British national then. You don't seem to understand the difference between a full and honourary awards. Eckerslike (talk) 07:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You're just repeating the same refuted points from the discussion below. If you bring something new to the table I'll address it. 2 lines of K  303  10:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * For the record, since I haven't seen this mentioned, Liam Neeson was quoted as saying point-blank "I'm an Irish citizen" in an interview. It's from that long-defunct 'George' magazine. No idea if the article can be found online at this stage. It long ago used to be linked on this page but I imagine it's gone. That was before he became a U.S. citizen. Whether he renounced any citizenships since then or before then? Probably not (but I have no proof one way or the other). There's no point to it. The minute there became a point to renouncing citizenship--let's say, the UK imposed a military draft on all those it officially considered its citizens (even in NI)--I assure you there'd be a stampede of Irish nationals from Northern Ireland officially renouncing U.K. citizenship. Except those silly awards being offical rather than honorary, there's really nothing currently that British citizenship gets one within the U.K. that Irish citizenship and U.K. residency doesn't get you too. So while the technical point about all NI people being U.K. citizens is likely true, it's kind of a moot point. One can wonder at the logic of the 'Citizenship' info-box inclusion to begin with. And I'm not just talking about NI people. Lots of people probably have multiple citizenships that we simply wouldn't know about unless there are really detailed, intimate person interviews about their family backgrounds, so I wonder if "Citizenship" simply isn't a dumping ground of what is publically known (or, at worst, assumed) rather than a fully accurate listing of useful information. Nuclare (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

PS. PS. PS. Besides, "Northern Irish" would make everything loads easier. Wikipedia seems to almost universally refer to inhabitants of the UK by which the four constituent "countries" they hail from (England: English, Scotland: Scottish, Wales: Welsh and Northern Ireland: Northern Irish). I think this is a great way to do it. Alternatively you could skip the British/Irish/American/ Northern Irish thing completely and solely refer to him as "an actor" (but, of course, further down and to the right state/list his birthplace as "Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom; with appropriate hyperlinks to the respective Wikipedia articles). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.167.160.32 (talk) 12:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC) {Greetings and salutations, all! Let me weigh in on this heated issue regarding Liam Neeson's identity here. First off, let me start off by saying that, in my opinion, again, just my opinion, it would be much easier if Wikipedia had started off articles on Britons as describing them as British, rather than Northern Irish, English, Welsh, etc. That way, in my opinion, we'd avoid such divisive arguments such as the one we are having on this article here. But, that's a moot point now, as Wikipedia does start off articles regarding Britons by naming their British constituent country, rather than by naming the United Kingdom, e.g. British/Briton, and I don't see this changing any time soon, mainly due to the fact that most Britons usually prefer to indentify themselves with their constituent U.K. home country (England, Wales, Northern Ireland, etc.), rather than with the United Kingdom, and thus, a sense of a unified "British" identity among Britons is not strong, according to some recent polls, where many Britons claimed that they were (English, or Welsh for example) first and British second, and because of previous statements on the talk section. Despite this, I have seen a few Wikipedia articles do start off by describing some Britons as being British, rather than English/Welsh/Northern Irish, etc. I suppose it may different for some reason, in regards to the Briton's place of birth, where they hail from, and/or their job or occupation. Anyway, I digress, as this is drawing away from the real topic at hand.

Moving on, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Liam Neeson fully fits the definition of Irish American. Why? I'll explain this to you right now. Although the term "Irish American" is used primarily to refer to natural-born Americans with Irish ancestry, it can also be used to describe Irish (or Northern Irish), emigrants to the United States of America, who later obtained United States citizenship, as evidenced by the Wikipedia article (reposted here for discussion purposes) on the topic: "citizens of the United States who can trace their ancestry to Ireland." In this case, "Ireland" refers to the island of Ireland, as the overwhelming bulk of emigration from the island of Ireland to the United States of America occurred at a time when Ireland was a fully united country in terms of politics (Both the territory held by Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland were both under British jurisdiction as a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland during most of the 19th century, when the majority of Irish emigration to the United States of America took place), and at a time when the independent, sovereign state now known as the Republic of Ireland, had not yet come into existence.

Thereby, using the Wikipedia definition used on the article of "Irish American", Liam Neeson fully fits this aforementioned definition one hundred percent, in my opinion, for he is, again, a citizen of the United States of America who can trace his ancestry back to the island of Ireland; he was born on the island of Ireland and is a citizen of the United States, that makes him "Irish American". Now, as to the fact of whether or not he is British, or rather Northern Irish. There is some question and debate as to whether or not Liam Neeson does indeed, still hold citizenship with the United Kingdom. If Liam Neeson does hold citizenship with the United Kingdom, he'd be considered to be both British and Northern Irish, as he was born in Northern Ireland, which was a constituent country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland at the time of his birth. I say again, if Liam Neeson holds citizenship with the United Kingdom, then he'd be both Northern Irish and British, as he was born in Northern Ireland, which is a constituent country of the United Kingdom. This is somewhat similar to how an American who was born and raised in Texas is simultaneously considered to be both an American and a Texan. Now, as of yet, despite all this, and since it cannot be determined beyond a shadow of a doubt as to whether or not Liam Neeson is still, to this day, currently a citizen of the United Kingdom, on this talk section, I will give a suggestion as of what to do on this article in the following passage.

To avoid a prolongated and heated discussion any further, I'd propose to you all on here that the Wikipedia article regarding Liam Neeson start off like this: "Liam Neeson is a British-born Irish American actor." Breaking that sentence down for reasoning purposes: "British-born", as Liam Neeson was born in the United Kingdom and may ("British" is a term widely used in the modern English language to describe anything having to do with the United Kingdom, just as the term "American" is widely used throughout the modern English language to describe anything having to do with the United States of America.), again may, have held British citizenship at one point in his lifetime, or even still does to this day. "Irish" is used, as Liam Neeson currently holds citizenship with the Republic of Ireland (he directly stated this himself, according to previous statements.), and "American", for he is currently a citizen of the United States of America. So, what are your thoughts on changing the introductory sentence to "Liam Neeson is a British-born Irish American actor."? I'd like to hear your thoughts so I may decide whether not to make any more further modifications to the Liam Neeson article in that regard.

As for the issue of self-identification that was brought up here earlier, a person can call themselves whatever they want, however, it does automatically necessarily make it so. Liam Neeson had called himself Irish in the past and holds citizenship with the Republic of Ireland, so for all intents and purposes, he is a full Irishman by any stretch of the imagination. However, an Australian man who was born and raised in New South Wales, but who has Irish ancestry may call himself Irish, even if he does not have any citizenship with the Republic of Ireland. However, in that case, de jure, he'd still be considered to fully be an Australian, but by de jure, not at all Irish. Similarly, there are many descendants of Korean expatriates living in Japan that will call themselves Korean, even when they have Japanese citizenship and were born and raised in Japan, and do not hold citizenship with either North Korea or South Korea.

Lastly, may I say that will the lot of you off the harsh derisiveness, will you? It's just a Wikipedia article that we are discussing here, so there is absolutely no need to get personal towards other members, it is not that much of "serious business". Anyway, carry on, and cheers! Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 06:35, 20 June 2012 (UTC)}


 * The Australian comparison doesn't hold water. While anyone is free to consider themselves anything they want, the Good Friday Agreement reads "recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose". The key part of course being "be accepted". It seems plenty of people have trouble with accepting that Liam Neeson is Irish.... 2 lines of K  303  06:46, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for replying to my post, 2 lines of K  303  . I personally, have no problem with accepting Liam Neeson as being Irish, because, from the looks of things, he has Republic of Ireland citizenship and considers himself to be Irish. Therefore, Liam Neeson is fully Irish in my book. However, since he also is a United States citizen, he is also an American. Also, I have changed the introductory section as per my previous proposal. If anybody decides to change it, please feel free to do so and explain your reasoning here so we may further debate it. The point with the Australian analogy that I was trying to make was that just becuase one calls themselves something, does not make it so. However, in Liam Neeson's case, it is different, for he is a Republic of Ireland citizen and calls himself Irish. Just trying to clear that up. Thank you. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 06:55, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Citizenship isn't the same as nationality. Irish American has been discussed before, and rejected. 2 lines of K  303  06:56, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the speedy reply, 2 lines of K  303  . After this discussion, I have agreed with your decision of leaving the introductory section for the article as it is. Thanks again. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 07:01, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT: To the editors here, what are you're thoughts on changing the introductory sentence to "Liam Neeson is a British-born Irish actor"? This was proposed as Liam Neeson was born and raised in United Kingdom ("British" being the demonym for the U.K.), and due to the fact that he is also Irish. I'd like to hear all of your thoughts regarding this. Thank you. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 07:41, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Whether Neeson could be described as Irish American now is moot. He was not an American citizen when he became notable. Sue De Nimes (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. We discussed that earlier. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 16:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

That-country-ish born this-nationality-ian isnt done, will try to remember where I read that in Bio's. Murry1975 (talk) 16:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

What I would just like to say is that during an interview tonight on the Jonathan Ross show (ITV) he kept referring to Northern Ireland and Ulster. I have never met any Irish people who have referred to NI as Ulster and indeed generally refer to it as the North or North of Ireland. 86.145.142.210 (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Nationality and ethnicity
There always appears to be a lot of confusion on this forum, this 'encyclopaedia' with regard to citizenship, nationality and ethnicity. Particularly amongst those people who seem determined to eradicate any notion of Northern Irish- or British-ness ie. Irish nationalist contributors. There is probably also some confusion with some loyalist or unionist contributors, but I have seen little or no evidence of it so far.

The fact is that the Good Friday Agreement, or Belfast Agreement, or The Agreement, is a written agreement between two sovereign nations with regard to a territorial dispute. That agreement was mostly a ratification of the rights that the people of Northern Ireland had enshrined in that other agreement of 1920 which served as Northern Ireland's constitution upon its creation. One of the few truly new things to come from the Agreement - to arise as a result of the Agreement - was the change to the constitution of the illegal claim by the Republic of Ireland to territory outside its jurisdiction: the amendment of Articles 2 & 3 of that country's constitution.

It has always been the case that the people of Northern Ireland could decide, collectively and democratically, to leave the Union and join with the Republic of Ireland.

Likewise, it has always been the case that a person from the United Kingdom - including Northern Ireland - could apply for a passport of the Republic of Ireland and therefore become a citizen of that country. Doing so was never an automatic disbarring from 'Club British'.

So not only does the affirmation in the Agreement with regard to self-identity carry absolutely zero weight, apart from to some people who like to attempt to use it as proof of something, but it also merely reaffirms what has been the case all this time: it gives official recognition to what has been happening for decades in the British Isles.

The same thing happens with other countries: once a person born in the UK (therefore a British citizen) takes out citizenship of, for example, the USA, he or she doesn't stop being British. The ONLY way to renounce British citizenship... is to renounce it. Once that is done, you cannot become a British citizen ever again. However, there is no evidence that people like that pantomime-Irishman Daniel Day-Lewis has ever renounced his British citizenship. Speaking of whom - quite a ridiculous category listing for him on this forum: He is, alternately, and English Jew and an English agnostic; an Irish Jew and an Irish agnostic, an expatriate in Ireland, somewhere, and an expatriate in the USA. He is an Irish person of English descent, but apparently not an English person of Irish descent (which is surely what he would have needed to be to become a citizen of the Republic of Ireland), a Jewish actor, but not an agnostic actor. Wait - it says he's a "naturalised citizen of Ireland". North or South I wonder. Anyway, back to a slightly less confusing subject. Liam Neeson was born in the United Kingdom. Now here's a reality check: Neeson is most likely, given that he was of a Roman Catholic background and living amongst many extremist and fundamentalist Protestants in the Bible Belt of Northern Ireland, a nationalist. He seems to have carried off a plethora of interviews with dignity and remained balanced and as neutral as possible for decades. But whether Neeson likes it or not or would prefer a change in the constitutional status of the little country he's from, he's British.

Sean Connery, whether he likes it or not, or would prefer a change, is British.

These are the facts - facts which a so-called encyclopaedia should relate.

Continuing with this, I believe Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are also both British - again, whether they like it or not. They obviously don't accept it, but they are unfortunately bound to the facts.

Now let's discuss something which seems to elude most people here and, in fact, most people in the world: being Irish and British are NOT mutually exclusive. Not even when it comes to nationality. To wit: people who are Scottish are British; people who are Welsh are British; people who are English are British and people who are Northern Irish are British.

Now here's some confusion for you: the Republic of Ireland has chosen as its description of nationality for its territory the adjective 'Irish'. That's not exactly wrong, but it doesn't tell the full story. It's also purposefully misleading, but we'll not get into that. Some nationalists, all Republicans, and some extremist unionists and loyalists are confused by the polarisation that came about due to the the civil conflict Northern Ireland has endured in recent decades. Unionists and loyalists shied away from using the word to describe themselves because of the confusion with the new Irish Republic, with which they didn't want to be associated. Nationalists and especially Republicans, embraced the description with a new-found vigour and intensity and with the motivation made more out of spite for a different label than love for Irish: a means of identifying a difference. It was no different really, as they were distancing themselves, also, from a label.

It's been said here that identifying as Irish doesn't mean that one necessarily has any bonds or connections with the Republic of Ireland (or "the twenty-six counties"). That is true. It makes sense then, when people like Ian Paisley describes himself as Irish (he did so when pressed in an interview), or that more moderate people such as James Nesbitt can and do describe themselves as Irish without thinking that they are any less British or that they are connected with the Republic of Ireland.

Irish is more than a nationality.

Nor is Irish owned solely by any one political territory.

Incidentally, I had a look at the category for Actors by nationality. Isn't it a bit petty (not to mention insulting) to have all the other categories for the countries of the world in the format "X-ian actors" or "X-ish actors" and to single out Northern Irish actors under a painfully obvious "actors from Northern Ireland" as if Northern Irish people are somehow less deserving of becoming an adjective than the Scottish, Iraqi or Spanish, or than South Sudanese, North Korean, South Korean, South African or Papua New Guinean actors‎? --173.93.239.247 (talk) 20:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Why is Liam Neeson the only Northern Irish actor labled as Irish if this is the case? List of most popular Northern Irish celebs http://yougov.co.uk/news/2012/07/24/northern-irelands-favourite-celebs/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nesbitt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_McIlroy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Branagh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Clarke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Bleakley Protestants in Northern Ireland are usually labeled as Northern Irish/British and Catholics as Northern Irish/Irish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.11.12 (talk) 00:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Schundler's list and Nell
The Career section, footnote 15, states that Spielberg gave Neeson that lead in Schindler's List because he was impressed with Neeson's performance in Nell - which was released a year after Schindler. Is this, perhaps, a mistake? Either Speilberg saw a performance in a movie two years before its release, or the sentence is incorrect. The source may be hard to find for confirmation.Polkadreamer (talk) 20:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Northern Ireland?
People from Northern Ireland are not Irish, not Welsh, not Scottish and not British. They are from Northern Ireland. The pronunciation is not Irish or British, it's Northern Irish. If you were born in Ballymena (I was born in Lisburn, by the way) you're from Northern Ireland, not Ireland. So why is Liam Neeson an "Irish" actor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.4.235.138 (talk) 19:34, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not a fact, that's just your opinion! People from Northern Ireland are Northern Irish true, but technically 'Northern Irish' isn't even a nationality on it's own, you can't hold a Northern Irish passport, can you? Also, through the Good Friday agreement you can claim British or Irish citizenship, and Mr Neeson chooses to recognize himself as being Irish and rightly so. So could you and everyone else here just let the man claim the nationality that one, he wants, and two, he is entitled to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.204.235 (talk) 13:!1, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is the northern section of Ireland. It is also apart of the UK. Citizens of Northern Ireland have the constitutional right to be identified as "Irish or British, or both". Mr. Neeson is Irish. Please respect his birth identity. Wikipedia is not the place for sectarian bigotry. It is 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.158.28 (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't understand the obsession with his Irishness to the exclusion to all other identities. He has stated that "Northern Ireland will always be my home" and referred to the British Film Council as "our movie council". Even his use of the term Irishman is not as clear cut as claimed. Ian Paisley has previously referred to himself as an Irishman despite having no affinity for the republic. The truth of Liam Nesson's identity is not as simple as the the narrative that some editors on this page insist on steadfastly adhering to. Eckerslike (talk) 00:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

They AREItalic text British. That's how politics and language works. I, for one, wish it would be part of Ireland, but it simply is not. He is British, more specifically Northern Irish. Get over it. - Bjørnar Munkerud, 16:13, the 2. of January, 2013 (UTC)

In-universe terms
int the section "Star Wars", it is stated that Neeson shows in one of the movies as a Force Ghost. I think this should be put in quotes, because the term is an in-universe term. I may be wrong though. Cormac596 (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree, but I can't really seem to think of a way to make it not sound as such without confusing the reader. 98.198.85.83 (talk) 13:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit
Second paragraph, first sentence of section "Schindler's List and afterward" - "..nomination for a Best Actor Osca" missing the "r" from oscar. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 22:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks. RashersTierney (talk) 22:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Lead is too short
The lead was long and summarized everything nicely in the article, now its been reduced severely, making Mr. Neeson as some less of an actor who hasn't been recognize at all, which he has. Is there an explanation to why it was reduced by editors of this page? (Libby995 (talk) 05:56, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Liam Neeson: "I'm Irish"
For once and for all can we put this nonsense about his nationality to rest? He is an Irishman, born in the part of Ireland that is still under British rule; he is therefore just as Irish as all people in Ireland were before 6 December 1922 when most of the country became independent. Under the Good Friday Agreement of 1998, everybody born in Northern Ireland has a right to have their Irish identity accepted. The British government accepted this, and it is enshrined in international law. This is easily verifiable. More importantly still, Liam Neeson repeatedly defines himself as "Irish", not "Northern Irish" or "British". Here are five references, and there are many more but the man shouldn't have to battle to assert his Irishness so much: 1) "Being Irish and a citizen of the world, has made me truly appreciate Irish culture, music and history. Whether you’re first, second generation Irish or even with no connection to Ireland, you should visit in 2013 for a unique experience."(Source 1) 2) "I tried playing one…in Michael Collins.... That was a challenging role because, you know, I’m Irish. But at the moment, there’s no hero that I can think of."(Source 2) 3) "I'm Irish, so I'm used to odd stews. I can take it. Just throw a lot of carrots and onions in there and I'll call it dinner." (Source 3) 4) "When I was growing up I felt I was Irish." (p. 58)"...I certainly felt Irish, and proud of it." (p. 59) "I honestly don't know how being Irish has affected me as regards my profession, other than that I feel at ease showing emotion on screen--be it anger or sympathy or having to cry. But I am Irish, I'm from that stock, and I think it must have effects." (p. 59)(Source 4: all quoted in Áine O'Connor, "Leading Hollywood", Wolfhound Press. 1996)]. 5) "But let's just say, I'm Irish. I grew up in the 1950s. Religion had a very tight iron fist" (Source 5). Lastly, for obvious reasons somebody has removed the reference in this article where Neeson describes himself as Irish. Could somebody please ensure that all of these references are permanently inserted into this article as this incessant questioning of Liam Neeson's identity by small-minded people who want to impose a British identity on this Irishman is utterly tiresome. If necessary, somebody in Admin should intervene and settle this issue as it's distracting from other aspects of Neeson's work. 79.97.154.238 (talk) 14:44, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * See the section "Northern Ireland" above. It's clear he identifies as many different things. It should just say "... from Northern Ireland". No ambiguity there. — Jon C.  ॐ  15:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Obviously, all people "identify with many things"; their cat, dog, family, village, region.... However, his nationality is what's in question here, and he unequivocally, repeatedly and explicitly identifies as Irish and not "Northern Irish" or "British". As such, according to Wikipedia's rules, it doesn't matter whether you like his self-definition (and you clearly don't), or not. He's Irish, and there's an abundance of references for it. 79.97.154.238 (talk) 22:14, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

As you said: "born in the part of Ireland that is still under British rule". Country of birth does not mean nationality, but there are no good reasons to call him Irish as he is associated with Northern Ireland, with is part of the United Kingdom, hence "British", as that's the correct term for someone from the United Kingdom. I'm not a Martian just because I can choose to tell you I am, nor can an astronaut whilst walking on the Moon correctly refer to himself as Lunar, or a North Korean choose to be South Korean just because he happened to be born a few degrees farther North than he'd like. We can't choose what we are, get over it, and as such we have to stick to calling spades spades, and regarding people who are still liars, delusional, ignorant, stupid or want different definitions (just because I don't want so and so political party to win the election, it doesn't mean they can't still win) we should at least have the decency to refer to them appropriately. Should people who think the Americas is one country be called "citizen of the continent country of America"? No! Would Adolf Hitler still have been Austrian even if he referred to himself as German? Yes! Live with who you are, folks, it's better and much more truthful. - the 29. of May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:94D7:798C:E97:13A3 (talk) 23:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * You know what I find tiring 79.97.154.238? People imposing their fucking agenda on articles such as Michael Gambon & Christian Bale too. It goes both ways, you see. I couldn't give a crap about anyone's self-identification in real life - but around here I do for the sake of factual accuracy. I totally agree with Neeson being described as Irish - the thing irking me here is your attitude when making a point. Edit: Should elaborate on what I mean by that: "born in the part of Ireland that is still under British rule" can we PLEASE leave this crap out? You can make a point without trying to guilt-trip the British. I'm Jewish AND British - I get so much shit you wouldn't believe. --Τασουλα (talk) 23:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I find this tiring too Τασουλα. You see it on pretty much every page where someone has either dual citizenship or is born somewhere like Northern Ireland where nationality is confusing and up to the individual to decide. It's been said before, but in Northern Ireland we have the right to claim either a British or Irish identity and Liam Neeson clearly claims an Irish identity and this article should respect that. It can be hard for a lot of people outside Northern Ireland to accept that because politics and ethnicity in Northern Ireland is undoubtedly complicated. What I will say is Andy Murray is described as Scottish because he was born in Scotland, Tim Henman is described as English because he was born in England. Liam Neeson was born in Northern Ireland where two ethnicities exist: British and Irish and he has the right to decide which one he is.
 * What irks me about the people who keep insisting he is British whether he likes it or not is I get the feeling they either do not understand ethnicity in Northern Ireland or they are English and trying to use the term "British" to claim him as one of their own. Anyone who says he is in fact Irish gets branded a nationalist or a republican. Now I'm not saying the English are the only ones who do this (practically all nations try to do this), but it's an argument you see on many articles where the subject is born in the UK but not in England. It seems it's perfectly alright to describe someone as English but if they're Scottish people will say "No no, he's British he was born in the UK" and we can see it here too. The oft cited example of this is Andy Murray in the English tabloids: "British when he's winning, Scottish when he's losing." If Liam Neeson as someone from Northern Ireland says he has an Irish identity that's what he is.
 * If anyone wants to know I am from Northern Ireland and I claim both identities, having both a British and an Irish passport. 86.162.163.138 (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * English people are more likely to see themselves as British and thus more likely to see Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish people as British. It is as simple as that, and explanations for arguments over nationality do not require implications of English manipulation or double-standards. Also, I'd love to see some decent evidence for the oft-repeated but never backed up claim that Andy Murray is "British when he's winning, Scottish when he's losing". Kombucha (talk) 01:35, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "The English, the English the English" is all I ever see whenever I check pages out like this. You, mr comment from the 14th of December have a very warped and frankly racist view of the English it is clear. England is no more nationalist than your country I am afraid, and compared to places such as Eastern Europe or Japan well, then you'll see what *real* nationalism is all about. You seem to think the English are involved in some plot to bring you all down. Did it ever come to you that most people described as British here are people from England? One person trying to argue from a pro-British viewpoint on a page (NOT an English one) relating to someone from Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales seems to be *automatically* English in your eyes and thus, all the English get the blame. And look at Irish nationalists! Every single person from Northern Ireland is Irish in their eyes despite roughly half of the place not considering themselves to be. Go look at the page on Michael Gambon and the Duke of Wellington (why any Irishman would want to claim him...) too. For the damn record, most of the time English is changed to British by "English" editors who insist it is not a nationality. Naturally they try and do the same for other parts of the UK too. 92.40.254.245 (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, if you are a British citizen you are -also- a british National=\=nationality. The distinction here is identity. And the Andy Murray thing is a joke, by the way. Yet you guys seem to make it seem like it's the fault of the English...when it's people who self identify as British doing it. Right. Also, the flag violence in Northern Ireland clearly points to who the most fanatical British nationalists are...lmao. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.254.245 (talk) 02:04, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Remove credit for The Delta Force (uncredited)
According to Neeson himself he's not in it. http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35332 Play the soundcloud file, 21.20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.170.247 (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe both you and him, but we can't go on your people's words alone. For all I know he was cut from the film. Or maybe somewhat pretended to be him? There are several possibilities, and we have to realise that may include such things as Neeson wanting to distance himself to the movie or the creators of the movie getting into a dispute with him. The best would be proof that he was not in the movie where he is said to be. Otherwise some objectively written article which takes several different viewpoints from Neeson and relevant associated people from the movie as well as people who have studied the film and rumour closely would do. That we would just need to believe and accept. Now we don't really know for sure. - Bjørnar Munkerud, June 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:640C:C042:8CC7:41E7 (talk) 14:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Nationality
Just because the Good Friday Agreement says he's free to consider himself and legally be an Irishman / a Irish citizen, it doesn't mean he is. Noone ever said the Good Friday Agreement is to be trusted, followed, obliged to, agreed to or allowed. He hails from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The correct term for a person from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is British.

To use another example: If I, a man who was born and has lived his entire life in Norway, claimed to be a New Zealander I wouldn't be recognised as such. And I shouldn't be. A nationality (yes, that's what it's called (one way to say it, at least)) isn't about what you consider yourself to be, but what you really are.

Sometimes this poses some ambiguities. You can for instance be an American if you were born in South Africa. You have to look at birth place, place of residence, legal residence, what the legal papers say etc.

Also, for example, if someone from Egypt received a passport, bank card, driver's license and all other means of identification mistakenly identifying him or her as Russian, it doesn't mean he or she is Russian. This means that someone British would still be British even in a hypothetical case where every single person on the planet agreed that he was Irish. Applying this specifically to Neeson, he can say he's Irish as much as he likes (and I won't stop him from saying he is), but he is still 100% British.

I heard someone mention that Neeson's now a legal citizen of the United States of America. If this is true, and he no longer is a legal citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or Ireland or any other country for that matter) in addition, he probably is (technically) an American. In which case you can scrap most of what I have now written.

There are however two ways to use nationality (possibly more, if properly specified (if you explain and use valid reasoning you can pretty much use any word to mean anything you want)): "where you are from" and "where you live". The first's answer would probably be the UK. The latter would be the country he happens to live in at the moment (if he is legally a permanent resident of that nation (there are a plethora of laws, rules, customs and expressions used in reference to this kind of thing, which makes intellectual and correct discourse in the topic challenging)).

Besides, "Northern Irish" would make everything loads easier. Wikipedia seems to almost universally refer to inhabitants of the UK by which the four constituent "countries" they hail from (England: English, Scotland: Scottish, Wales: Welsh and Northern Ireland: Northern Irish). I think this is a great way to do it. Alternatively you could skip the British/Irish/American/ Northern Irish thing completely and solely refer to him as "an actor" (but, of course, further down and to the right state/list his birthplace as "Ballymena, County Antrim, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom; with appropriate hyperlinks to the respective Wikipedia articles). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.247.145.184 (talk) 16:16, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The US, Ireland and the UK ALL allow dual citizenship, and this is pretty common knowledge. --92.40.254.245 (talk) 02:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

So why, then, is he not referred to as "Northern Irish -Irish-American" or "British-Irish-American" in the article? - original poster, Bjørnar Munkerud, June 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:640C:C042:8CC7:41E7 (talk) 14:15, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Why, why do people have to bring the GFA into these arguments? Why is sooooo much immaterial stuff thrown around to try and back-up arguments? Why would someone who has declared themselves a proud Irishman and from an Irish-Catholic background be described as a British or Northern Irish anything??? --Somchai Sun (talk) 10:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Text/ignored.
For some reason there is red text, almost like a warning in the reflist section with the (title of my thread) mentioned. Why? --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is (was) a warning, or perhaps more accurately an error message, indicating a malformed citation template in the reference where it appears. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 01:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah I see. Never seen anything like it before, but the more you know! --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Source for his wealth...
I don't see it anywhere. Is it really necessary for it to be in the infobox anyway? --Somchai Sun (talk) 12:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The Endurance: Shackleton's Legendary Antarctic Expedition
Liam Neeson was not the narrator in "The Endurance: Shackleton's Legendary Antarctic Expedition", Kevin Spacey was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee91355 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes Neeson was. Murry1975 (talk) 17:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Best known films
The lead currently includes the sentence ...some of Neeson's best known films include . Judgement could be used remove some of the films but may lead to arguments about which films he is "best known" for. Perhaps some objective measures could be used to select a short list. His top grossing films (out of the ones listed) are Star Wars, Chronicles of Narnia 1, Clash of the Titans, Chronicles of Narnia 2 & 3, Batman Begins and Taken. Award nominations could also be used. Perhaps the sentence could also be rephrased too. Eckerslike (talk) 18:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)