Talk:List of New Rochelle neighborhoods

partitions and sources
Hi. I opened this article with a cut-and-paste from the New Rochelle, New York article, in order to try to centralize discussion about what are neighborhoods/communities of note within New Rochelle. Other example articles about neighborhoods are: For this one, I wonder what are available sources that describe informal, overlapping neighborhoods and what describe official partitions of the city into police precincts, election areas, etc. doncram (talk) 21:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * List of Boston neighborhoods
 * List of Philadelphia neighborhoods
 * List of Baltimore neighborhoods
 * List of Seattle neighborhoods
 * Syracuse, New York

outbound merger proposal 1
It was proposed by addition of a merger tag, that this article be merged to New Rochelle, New York, with discussion of the merger to take place at Talk page for that other article. I removed the merger tag, and request the proposer to discuss reasons for proposing it here, instead. As I stated above, my purpose in starting this page was to provide for centralized discussion New Rochelle neighborhood articles, of which there are 20 or so which could be listed and discussed here. I think this is specialized and too much to be handled within the New Rochelle article itself. I suggest an expanded list-article here, at least, perhaps in lieu of 20 or more neighborhood descriptions in separate articles. I don't think anyone would support having one or two paragraph descriptions for each of 20 neighborhoods in the New Rochelle article, so I don't want this merged back into there. doncram (talk) 23:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

inbound multiple merger proposals
I am going to tag the 20 or so separated neighborhood articles to propose their mergers to here, for discussion to happen here. I think there are advantages to presenting all the neighborhoods in one article, so that one overall map can show them, and so that relationships between neighborhoods can be clearly shown. doncram (talk) 23:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I put merger proposals on 19 or so pages. Each has little or no information besides assertion that the neighborhood is a residential area (which can be covered in this list-article easily) and whether the place is to the east or west of other neighborhoods.  All those relationships could be conveyed in one map in this list-article instead.  Also, the 4 external links given in each one do not seem to be independent, they mostly each just provide coordinates for a single point and do not provide a map showing boundaries of any defined area.  So, I think one map showing 19 points, here, and some text notes about which area includes a college, etc., here, will serve better and replace all of them.  If there is no discussion i will change them to redirects to here, eventually. doncram (talk) 01:20, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No reason that I see to have tons of tiny stubs on these neighborhoods; it's long been the general practice to have higher standards for neighborhoods than for unincorporated communities. If we have little bits of sourced information for each one, let's present everything together at a single article.  Given that there will be like 20 different sections if merging in this way is possible, merging this in turn into the main article might make the entire article too large.  Nyttend (talk) 01:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * A user added material and removed the merger proposal for a couple of the neighborhoods that i have noticed. I re-added the merger proposal and, in my edit summary, requested discussion here.  I think the user does have some valid sources, but has only added references to off-line versions.  Also, in my opinion, the user needs to participate in an unban process to be able to contribute and to participate in meaningful discussion.  However, i would be willing to receive scanned copies or otherwise review their references if they wished to send them to me, so that I could support having more description about those neighborhoods here and/or separate articles for them. doncram (talk) 20:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Seeing one agreement with the merger proposals, and no objections, unless anyone else speaks up soon I will begin converting some of the neighborhood articles into redirects to here.


 * Redirecting multiple neighborhood articles to one main article can be an effective, organized way to handle the information. I just wonder why not let these articles remain so that they might have the chance to be expanded over time (most of these articles are barely one month old). There are countless neighborhood stubs on wikipedia, many of which were created at least a year ago without any changes or improvements since. If the decision is made to take the redirect route, certain articles should still remain separate because of specific historic significance - that can easily be discussed.--Erin cali70 (talk) 08:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The New Rochelle neighborhood articles are different than those in any other area in the country, because they are targeted for deletion by a few editors who have pursued a long campaign. The campaign may or may not have been fair, but the upshot is that there have been hundreds of article deletions about neighborhoods and sites in the New Rochelle area.  Specifically about these recently created neighborhood articles, User:Wknight94 asked another administrator to delete them all (see User talk:Tiptoety or Jvolkblum within this frozen version of that Talk page), and User:Orlady in various comments has supported deleting one or more of them individually.  Given opposition to having these articles, and past success by opponents in deleting many of them previously, I think it is better to develop good sections on each neighborhood within this list-article, first, before splitting any too-large passages off to separate articles.  Also, I think it would be more efficient to verify sources, here, rather than having arguments with critical editors about which sources are reliable or not in each of 20 or so articles.  By the way, a lot about 2 of the neighborhoods can perhaps best be developed, first, in new article Rochelle Park-Rochelle Heights Historic District. doncram (talk) 09:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I implemented all the mergers by changing the separate articles to redirects to here. For most of them I painstakingly tried to copy useful info to this list-article and/or to the Mapworks working page.  For the last ones I felt fed up about all this and just deleted what was in the separate articles.  I am just a volunteer and I am dealing, as others have before me, with one or more persons apparently violating wikipedia policies by editing from multiple accounts.  Yes, those persons were probably mistreated in wikipedia by some other editors, but probably most of them now have had plenty of advice and have received my offers to help unban/unblock.  To be a tad sarcastic if not humorous, cry me a river, please! :) doncram (talk) 19:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Residence Park
This area was one of the first planned residential park communities in the country & has other significant historically relevant aspects - The area itself dates back to the early settlers of the community; the historic Lewis Pintard home is in this area; the historic leland castle and the college of new rochelle are also found here; the area is working towards historic designation by the government. Rochelle Park and Rochelle Heights are also areas that were among the first planned communities in the country and that were built around common garden areas. The architecture is of significance and has been recognized by the government as historic areas to be preserved.--67.84.188.221 (talk) 01:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I would be happy for the section in the list-article about Residence Park to include mention of both the college and the Lewis Pintard House. I assume the assertions are correct. However, is there some description available as to what are the boundaries of the district, so that the specific assertions are supported?  The current Residence Park article includes external links which could be used to support a given point set of coordinates, so it is shown that specific point is in Residence Park.  But I see no supporting links or references so far that show the general area or the specific boundaries of Residence Park, to use to show that the Pintard House and the college are within it.  Can you provide such?  If it is an off-line reference, perhaps you could scan and email me a copy.  Similarly about the architecture being of significance and having been recognized as a historic area to be preserved.  Those sound very relevant facts to mention, but also need specific support.  I would be happy to help document those facts, but i do not have the sources myself. doncram (talk) 01:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Some google searching brings me to Neighborhood news page of the Residence Park Neighborhood & Civic Association, which includes a link to a 2005 powerpoint presentation about the possible benefits of establishing a local historic district, which would be a local zoning overlay zone. From that I guess you are right about the historic character of the area, but without it having yet been designated even as a local historic district, and with only such a cryptic, powerpoint source, I don't think that can be mentioned in an encyclopedia article, given wp:RS requirement for reliable secondary sources.  Also, the arguments given in the 2005 powerpoint are largely about increasing home values in the area; the authors appear to be trying to promote the area to enhance property values.  So, as a source it would not be sufficiently objective, and to mention the historic character of the area in wikipedia based upon that would seem to be using wikipedia for commercial promotion.  I am not saying you necessarily want to use that source which I found, but that is how my reasoning might go if you were pointing me to that as a source.  Also linked at that site is a 2007 community meeting powerpoint with a much more developed proposal, including an interesting historic map showing "A Residence Park" and a current map showing boundaries for a proposed local historic district.  Has the district been accepted by the local board HLRB?  If so, then I believe it could be a proper wikipedia article topic, assuming the final application documentation can be found and used to directly support the article.  If it has not been approved as a local historic district, then I believe it still does not merit mention a separate article, although a short description of the neighborhood in the list-article could mention that it has a historic character, based on that 2007 powerpoint.  But as far as I know, the borders of the area are currently ill-defined, in the absence of definition by a historic district. doncram (talk) 02:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Glenwood Lake
An IP editor added a passage about Glenwood Lake which I assume is basically factual information, but it is not yet supported by specific and reliable references. Since there has been a history of challenging sources and deleting passages or articles, I am just removing to here for discussion. The passage is: Glenwood Lake - a racially / culturally diverse neighborhood located between Webster, Mayflower and Lincoln Avenues and the Pelham border. The community was developed in the late 1920s and early 1930s and includes over 300 homes. Glenwood Lake Association (GLA) is a neighborhood association with an active 50-year history ( promoting its multicultural character, saving the neighborhood elementary school from closure in the early 1980s, preservation of Glenwood Lake and surrounding parkland). The Association is working to transform Glenwood Lake Park into a Nature and Wildlife Preserve. The park is an undisturbed 15-acre tract that includes Glenwood Lake (a 4-acre glacial kettle) and the surrounding 11 acres of woods and wetlands. The City, County and the Westchester Land Trust joined together several years back to purchase three acres of wetlands adjoining the lake to combine it with the park. Offhand, sounds appropriate and interesting, and it would be okay, I think, to have a passage that long describing this and other neighborhoods. The list in the article should probably be put into a table format to accomodate descriptions of this size. It needs sourcing. For this one, rather than me trying to do research on it, I'd appreciate being provided specific links or scanned, emailed copies of documents supporting this passage. Or sources that could support another version. This version seems a little informal, and I assume it is not an exact quote from anywhere. I would tend to want less or no mention of what an association is trying/wanting to do, as I think that tends not to be encyclopedic. Anyhow, let's please document something before adding this back to the article. Also, I would strongly prefer to work with logged in users and/or to assist users in getting unbanned/unblocked so that I and other editors can have constructive interactions. doncram (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Map showing neighborhoods' locations
Could anyone create a map to include in this article? Towards creating a map, I am going to try to stash coordinates and other info from the neighborhood stub articles a new working article List of New Rochelle neighborhoods/Mapwork. The info can be used in creating a Google map, at least. Will test and build it there. Will start now by moving in Forest Knolls geo data, from its stub article that was just converted to a redirect. doncram (talk) 00:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I have done some work mapping several communities in Westchester including New Rochelle. What I have varies from hard copies (pdf's and jpegs) to google maps of NR City, zip-code divisions and neighborhood breakdowns. I'd like to contribute if I can.--Erin cali70 (talk) 09:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Can you post images here, and/or do you know how?  To upload a file you created, you would upload it to Commons first, following instructions at http://commons.wikimedia.org.  Other map type images of the New Rochelle area such as a zip code map have been disputed at commons, so it is not necessarily easy, but if you yourself have created the map image it should be okay.  You must not be associated with previously uploaded images that were later deleted, or your uploads will also be suspect. doncram (talk) 03:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Reduced form of the article
In response to list-type additions to the article, I am inclined to reduce the article down to what has been adequate references, which is virtually nil. I am afraid all of the new lists and google maps links probably don't help. However, I did click on several of the links, and found one where it actually showed an outlined region of some neighborhood within the Google map. That seems helpful. I wish I could find that one link again. The ones which are just pointing to a point location within New Rochelle aren't useful in my view, except perhaps provide support for someone preparing a real map and wanting to place a neighborhood text name on top of the rough location of the neighborhood. Someone needs to identify a city or other map showing official neighborhoods, and provide that in some form, that would be the way forward. Also someone needs to be a regular wikipedia editor, with a registered, legal account. I will do my part, what i can do, about one unban case. I suggest to the IP-editors that their contributions are likely not to survive, however, so I don't really advise you to try to contribute here. This is not really very open to contributions, in effect. I am willing to discuss further elsewhere.

Anyhow, I am going to draft a new version of the article at Talk:List of New Rochelle neighborhoods/Temp1, watch for any discussion here, then probably replace the article by it in a day or few days time. I will then move all the new list-type stuff to the working page Mapwork mentioned in Talk sections above. This seems like working material stuff, not frontline wikipedia article material, just recently. doncram (talk) 07:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Switch done. I am copying the last version, with its colorful map, to Talk:List of New Rochelle neighborhoods/Temp2 for possible further development. doncram (talk) 03:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Beechmont
Beechmont was so stubby when speedy-deleted that I just rewrote it based on the reliable sources I could find, without making use of the previous content. I did trawl through looking for sources supporting some of the assertions in that article. One of the deleted revisions got the date wrong on the creation of Beechmont Lake, but mentioned the date at which Beechmont Woods was added to the original Beechmont development. This referenced Richard M. Lederer, Jr.'s The Place Names of Westchester County, New York (Harbor Hills Books, Harrison, N.Y. 1978), p. 16. I don't have access to this; if someone could consult this source, it may be possible to add more data to the list. Choess (talk) 01:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

A modest proposal: Merge into main New Rochelle article?
Doncram has been working hard to find sourced content for this article, but in spite of his efforts, it's pretty stubby in its present form. I've tried in the past to find authoritative sources for information about these neighborhoods, and concluded that much of the content on topics such as neighborhood boundaries was not supported by anything more than original research. (This is not saying it isn't true, just that there is no authoritative source to cite.)

I have seen good sources regarding several neighborhoods and sections of New Rochelle, including Beechmont (as noted above), Residence Park, Rochelle Heights, Wykagyl, and City Park (see this PDF). Some of these areas have fairly interesting stories to be told in an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, though, with its contents currently limited to just a few neighborhoods, this list article looks kind of pathetic -- a bit like a dying tree with just a few live branches.

Although New Rochelle, New York is an overly long article in its current form, I wonder if it would make sense to merge the "neighborhoods" information into the main article. I don't think this should be inserted as an embedded list, but rather as text. Information about the historic neighborhoods would be best merged into the History section (or separate History article that DoxTxob is working on) as text, while info about topics such as the proposal to build an IKEA store in City Park might belong in an Economy section, also as text.

Just a modest proposal for consideration... --Orlady (talk) 18:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not true, i have not been working hard to find sources for this list-article. I have moved mention of sources to here from several articles where they were being argued about by Orlady and others.  I feel that Orlady is being deliberately obtuse or is truly misunderstanding some pretty basic concepts about wikipedia policy for dealing with sockpuppets, etc., right now to make this proposal now.  As has been briefly but I think adequately explained in several places, including a wp:ANI incident that might still be open, my strategy for this article has been to consolidate and contain wide-ranging arguing about sources and so on for New Rochelle neighborhoods articles.  The strategy has basically been working:  there are I believe now 22 redirects from former, separate articles here, and consolidated discussion about reliable sources can happen here.  There have been perhaps as many as 50 separate NR neighborhoods articles previously created and deleted or converted to redirects, sometimes with just small variations in spelling.  The contain and discuss strategy works here, and it would not be appropriate to have such a wide-ranging discussion at the main article about New Rochelle itself.  There is ample precedent for allowing there to be a list-article about neighborhoods of a city.  The effect of having this list-article has been to reduce the scope of the Orlady - Jvolkblom mess that many are aware of. doncram (talk) 19:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Beechmont maps
(I intended this for the Beechmont talk page, but the Talk tab on the Beechmont page takes me to the "List of New Rochelle neighborhoods" talk page, so I'm confused. Anyway, this note refers to the two maps on the Beechmont page.)

The two maps cover very different areas with only a slight overlap. I'm not familiar enough with the area to know which one is a more accurate representation of Beechmont, but I suspect that the newer one is better, because it's specifically labelled "Beechmont" while the older one is not. Unless anyone objects, I'll delete the older one in a few days. (I hate to do that, because I love old maps, but this old map doesn't seem to represent Beechmont, as it purports to do.) Whaddya think? HMishkoff (talk) 13:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)