Talk:List of Professional Bull Riders Champions

Conflict in source regarding winner of 1994 winner of Tour Pro Divison
Hi, I noticed your change to this article in removing the 1994 entry to the list of Tour Pro Division Champions. I don't know if you checked the source first. But there's a conflict between wherever you got your information and the source I used to back up this list of champions. It would be great if you could resolve the conflict. I don't want to immediately revert it, but the source I used comes directly from the 2017 PBR Media Guide. Let's see if we can prove which one is really correct. See this source here: It's on page 5 titled "TOURING PRO DIVISION LEADING POINTS WINNER." This doesn't have to be a hurry to resolve it, let's find out for sure. dawnleelynn(talk) 20:19, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Is there a conflict?
Hello, Dawn. I don’t know how the information of Tuff Hedeman winning the 1994 Touring Pro Title and the amount of money he won came to light. I don’t know how that is possible. Hedeman suffered a severe spinal injury during the last round of the 1993 National Finals Rodeo, and had to withdraw from competition for the entirety of 1994, meaning he could not compete at all for the whole year. He came back to competition in 1995, which was also the year the PBR introduced the Touring Pro Division. This was information I thought was settled history. Either the PBR media guide is wrong, or I am wrong. If that information is incorrect, I would like to know how they got the very specific number of dollars Tuff Hedeman supposedly won that year. If they are right, I would like to know how they got the information. I noticed they also added the highest scores in Premier Series history, but they did not include the 96-point ride by Lonnie Steverson against Sammy Andrews’ bull, Zandy in Nashville, Tennessee in 1997. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 00:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Possible Citations
Hello, Dawn. There is a documentary on YouTube from 1997 when the PBR was very young and Tuff Hedeman was still riding. It was originally broadcast on The Nashville Network (TNN), then the network that broadcast all PBR events on television. It talks about his career, but it also has a section from his injury that supposedly forced him to sit out the entirety of 1994 and coming back the next year. That part runs from 16:45 to 18:30. The video is titled “Tuff Hedeman-Life and Times of”. There is also another YouTube video highlighting Tuff Hedeman that ran during the 1996 PBR World Finals. It very briefly mentions Tuff Hedeman missing the 1994 season. That video is titled “PBR 1996: Tuff Hedeman Profile”. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 00:22, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate you digging these up. I will take a look soon at all of these things, including what was in your other message. I already believed you when you first said it. I had already come to believe that you know more about the PBR than I do historically speaking and in general, and that you only speak up when you are certain about something. That's why I value your input so much in this area. I know you are aware of the need of sources, even if they are frustrating at times. There's a reason that Jeopardy doesn't use Wikipedia as a source, LOL! However, even the PBR can get things wrong sometimes, like between different departments like the bull riding and the press. Here's the link to the 2017 Media Guide at the where it links to the 4 different PDFs that comprise it in its entirety. I daresay this will be useful because I have based much of the updates I have done to the PBR articles this year on information in these four documents. We can make sure that there aren't any other conflicts we need to investigate. Also, the Media Guide is a link on the very bottom of the home page of the PBR under Press. dawnleelynn(talk) 04:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Accurate Information
Thanks for the information, Dawn. Yes, I had to speak up because, I knew something was wrong. I noticed on the 2017 PBR media guide that they put all of the seasons’ final standings, except 1994 and 1995. They made a side note that they did not include the first two years of PBR competition because, the information they had collected for said seasons was incomplete, thus would not include the final standings for those seasons, and so I ask, how did they include a very specific number of money won by Tuff Hedeman who won the title for a minor league series that still did not exist? Yes, we all make mistakes, and not even people who work for a major sports organization are perfect. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 04:48, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Touring Pro Division Champions Table - 1994 row inaccuracy with Hedeman
Hi there, I had a super busy week in real life. But I have some time to work on Wikipedia this weekend. I looked at the fine print in the 2017 Media Guide that you pointed out. I watched the two videos. I have links to the 2016 and 2014 Media Guides as well, and they have the same table with Hedeman in 1994 and fine print on purposely leaving out 1994 and 1995 season records because they are incomplete and attempts being made to gather it. So, yes the videos are reliable proof. The YouTube provider who posted them is not the best source; we can't be sure that these videos are not copyright violations (did the provider have the right to post because they do not own them?). In fact, I had some videos from RodeoLibrary101 in my External links section in an article that I was having nominated for a Good Article status, and the reviewer removed them due to that source. But, this article probably won't be reviewed for any article upgrades any time soon. If you do run across a more reliable source that has them, do post the links to me in future. In the meantime, I am going to use them in this article in comments, so it really won't matter too much. What we want to do here is to prevent anyone in future from adding the year 1994 back to the table so I'm just going to add a comment to the article at the bottom of the table stating why that row is not in the table and use the video links for proof. Here are the links to the 2014 and 2016 Media Guides for future reference also, so if we need to use them, you have them--I have used them for sources in articles too. The 2014 one isn't always available online. Actually, I have downloaded all the PDFs to my computer so if the PBR pulls them off the web, I still have them. For my own reference and to back up the sources I used them for in PBR articles. You might wish to download them too.


 * PBR 2014 Media Guide
 * PBR 2016 Media Guide

dawnleelynn(talk) 16:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Start dates of Touring Pro Division Conflict
Another conflict I found while investigating the previous one was here. See this article and section: [Professional Bull Riders/Touring Pro Division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Bull_Riders#Touring_Pro_Division]. Notice it starts out On "January 1, 2010, the PBR announced a new minor tour."

Now regarding the following archive link of the www.pbrnow.com website in the Internet Archive Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org/). Hopefully it's pretty self-explanatory. We copy websites and webpages into this archive to save them for when they are removed as a backup. It has backups of the old PBR website from about 1997 to present day. Have you used this Wayback Machine before? Let me know if you need assistance.

See. Notice that it shows "The PBR's Touring Pro Division is the new 2010 minor tour of the PBR, replacing the Challenger Tour, Enterprise Tour and Discovery Tour." So that is where I got that date of 2010 as the start date of the Touring Pro Division some time ago. But it is contradicted by that table that goes back to 1994 obviously. But it is also contracted by this archive copy: which shows Standings for the Touring Pro Division and if you notice the date up at the top of the archive, it's December 24, 1997. Also, have you heard of the Copenhagen Bull Riders Master Pro Series? Just curious. Can you explain this contradiction? Perhaps I should just change the date in the article, do you know when tour actually started? Is it 1995? dawnleelynn(talk) 16:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Copyright Violations?
Hello, Dawn. Thanks for the information. The Tuff Hedeman Documentary was uploaded by RodeoLibrary101. He always posts in the video description that he does not own the rights to videos he posts. The small Hedeman Highlight video is from another user called PBRBudLightCup. He also post similar videos. I don’t think we need to worry about copyright violations. I remember from a PBR documentary called “This Is Not A Rodeo” from 2009, which talks about the PBR’s history, but there is a small section where it is mentioned that the organization purchased their television rights back from The Nashville Network (TNN) in 2001. I assume the PBR owned their T.V. rights at first, TNN purchased them, then the PBR bought them back. The PBR’s Facebook page sometimes posts rides from the past, especially this year being their 25th. They post the same videos, frame by frame, that RodeoLibrary101 previously posted on YouTube, so they seemingly don’t have a problem with rides posted on YouTube or quite old documentaries. I assume more video exposure to their organization is in their best interest. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 11:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Touring Pro Division History
The Touring Pro Division got started in 1995. It was called just that. By 1998-2000, Copenhagen Tobacco, then a PBR sponsor, became the title sponsor of the Touring Pro Division and was renamed the Copenhagen Bull Riders Master Pro Series. In 2001, U.S. Smokeless Tobacco replaced Copenhagen as the PBR’s tobacco sponsor, so it was renamed the U.S. Smokeless Tobacco Challenger Tour. By 2008, Copenhagen returned as the PBR’s tobacco sponsor and the minor tour was renamed the Copenhagen Challenger Tour. Then in 2010, the PBR had no tobacco sponsor, and the minor tour was renamed to its original name, the Touring Pro Division, without a title sponsor. By the mid-2010s, recently added PBR sponsor Lucas Oil stepped in and became the title sponsor of the Touring Pro Division, thus becoming the Lucas Oil Touring Pro Division. As of 2018, Lucas Oil remains a PBR sponsor, but is no longer the Touring Pro Division’s title sponsor, thus the TPD again is without a title sponsor. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 12:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Bonus Minor Tour History
The Enterprise-Rent-A-Car Tour and Discovery Tour were added in the mid-2000s. Both tours were discontinued after 2009, and the Copenhagen Challenger Tour was renamed to its original title, the Touring Pro Division and more events were added to said minor league series. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Hope This Helps
I hope this information helps, Dawn. My history is a bit flawed, but I try my best. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 12:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

International champions
Thanks for the adjustment to the Australians nationals champions section. I then noticed that the only champions section that has a source is the American one. Where do you get the content for the other three sections? These sections need a source too. I tried to locate one for the Australians but couldn't find one. Thanks... dawnleelynn(talk) 15:15, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello, Dawn. Happy Easter! I hope you’re being careful during this worldwide pandemic we’re facing. When I added the PBR International Champions section early this year, I was getting the information from the 2017 PBR Media Guide. I was positive the information was totally accurate. However, a few days ago, I noticed that PBR Australia’s Facebook page was posting information about its past national champions daily. The 2017 media guide lists Kevin “Jock” Connolly as the 2007 PBR Australia Champion, while the Facebook page listed Ben Jones as the champion that year. The PBR finally made it’s most recent media guide available this year, and the International Champions list is available in the “Records & Statistics” section. It still lists Kevin Connolly as the 2007 Australian champion, so I’m not totally sure as to which information is correct. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks. I should have thought of the media guide. But I actually haven't done any editing in the PBR articles lately. I did notice that they changed all of the URLs for the articles again and I mean a second time after having changed them for their website redesign. Geez. I have updated some, but it will take a bit to get them all updated. If you run into broken links in them, that is probably why for most of them. Anyway, I am updating some links to this end for a userdraft article I am writing on Smooth Operator in my userspace. I have fallen away from one of the main things I joined to do, which is writing bull articles. I plan to do several now. I hope you will be an expert for me and review them before I move them to mainspace. Any suggestions will also be welcome. Lastly, I will take a look at the issue with the international champions. Thanks a bunch for that. Actually, you could start now on the draft now while it is in the beginning stages if you are up for it. I tend to to make the articles too long and include material that's not encyclopedic. You could review while I write season 2015, which has much content from the PBR to review. However, I will have to ping you the info from the userdraft article talk page; this is not the place to discuss it in detail. dawnleelynn(talk) 20:59, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello, Dawn. I have started the draft for Smooth Operator. It’s only two sentences. I wish I could have added more like his brand number, but I was unable to find it. I would have liked to add more, such as at what age he began his career, but that seems more fitting for his History section. When you get the chance, hopefully you’ll be able to improve upon it, and I’ll make sure to fix any minor mistakes if there are any. Thanks a bunch for your help. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 03:51, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * You actually created an article, not a draft, which is why it is up for deletion. I must not have been clear in what I said. I asked if you would review my userdraft article, not create one. I'm so sorry I was not clear. I am writing about four or five bull articles in the next month. Smooth Operator is the first one. Here is the link so you can see what I have: User:Dawnleelynn/Smooth Operator (bull). Perhaps you can make notes in the talk page or if things are just wrong, correct them. I'll have to make sure to have the right sources of course... You can help me write some of it too, we can talk about it. I will give you credit when I list it on my User page after it is done. dawnleelynn(talk) 05:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello, Dawn. You are correct. My apologies. I have read your draft, and fixed a few minor mistakes. It looks very good so far. Thanks for letting me know about it. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 01:07, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Blogs
When I first published a URL from this Wordpress site in the article PBR World Cup, I got a message from Wikpedia saying this:

"An automated filter has identified this edit as containing references to one of the following blogging / web host platforms: Angelfire, Blogger (including blogspot.com), Geocities, Livejournal, Rootsweb, WordPress.com. Please be aware that self-published sources rarely meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources. They may be used only with caution and for non-controversial material where the blog or website is owned by the subject of the article (see WP:ABOUTSELF). Best practice is to discuss this on the Talk page first. If you are the owner of the site or blog, please note that Wikipedia is not a venue for self-promotion and use of the project for promotion is forbidden and can lead to loss of editing privileges and blacklisting of your site. Note also that Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, so additions of links to Wikipedia will not alter search engine rankings.

If you have checked the source and are confident it is appropriate and reliable, please click 'Publish changes' again. If you were not adding a blog or web host, please report this error."

If you take the time to look at the wordpress URLs in this article and in PBR World Cup, it is obvious that they are news sources and reliable, not a blog. The message says that I can publish the change if I am confident it is appropriate and reliable, which I am. dawnleelynn(talk) 03:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , which one do you mean? "Sports Image Times"? Plainly a blog. "Oklahoma Sports Hall Of Fame" at Wordpress? Again, obviously a fan blog, not an official site. You seem to add quite a few blogs.
 * You also need to be aware that a blog which mirrors a defunct website has to demonstrate permission from the rights owners, including the image copyright holders. Linking to copyright-violating content on Wikipedia is for bidden by policy. Many people have been banned for this.
 * Regardless, the place to check whether a site is reliable or not is the reliable source noticeboard. Guy (help!) 17:12, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * First, I seriously thought that the Sports Image Times on WordPress and the archived site were the same source-they had just changed domains, so thanks for the heads up. Second, where are you talking about the use of the Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame? I don't see it in this article. I am not the only one that edits this article, btw. The website is so why would I use a blog for it? I almost never use blogs. <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 18:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC) p.s. Are you saying the reliable source noticeboard trumps a message I get from Wikipedia itself when I post content? As in it told me how I could handle Wordpress as I was making an edit. It's confusing then. Do I edit according to the message when I post content or go to the noticeboard? Which trumps which? It would be nice to know. Thank you. <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 20:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have been patient. I do not appreciate your sarcastic comment about me using lots of blogs, especially since it is blatantly false. I did search, btw, I haven't used any Oklahoma Sports blog...<i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 21:10, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , the edit filter log suggests otherwise, but whatever. Guy (help!) 23:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you are talking about. You gave me no location, source, link, or anything. I can't even find the word Oklahoma in this article. Is it a source in this article? If so, which one? What is an edit filter log? I feel like you are talking in another language. <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 00:26, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Omigod! You didn't tell me it was Jim Shoulders article! No wonder I could not locate it. And you are so biased against Wordpress, you didn't even take a look at it, but instantly assumed it was a blog and wasn't reliable, etc. If you go to Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame, then click "Learn More" which takes you to Hall of Fame, you are presented with the Hall of Fame page. Then go down to the bottom where it says "Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame Inductees" and click that Learn More button, then it takes you to a list of inductees. Click for an A-Z Listing. Now click the Bio button on any of the inductees that has one; not all do. Notice that all of the URLs to this point have been regular plain old URLs. But the inductee BIO pages are hosted on, guess what, the Bios are hosted on Wordpress. They are not a blog after all. I don't expect an apology. Just an understanding. And boom, that's why Wikipedia lets us publish Wordpress URLs when we submit content to an article--when the source really is a reliable one. As in this case. The Bio really is coming from the Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame...as an actual reliable source. <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 03:21, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , it's not "biased against WordPress". Wikipedia policy says not to use self-published sources excxept in narrowly defined circumstances. Did you notice that oklahomasportshalloffame.org is not the same as oklahomasportshalloffame.wordpress.com? I think this may be where you're going wrong: sometimes sites do use WordPress but rarely for internal pages like this and it's quite common for WordPress sites like this to be illegal mirrors. Not saying that's what happens here, but it's a possibility.
 * There's a nice easy fix here. When you get the alert from the edit filter about a self-published source, you can ask at WP:RSN whether the source is reliable or not, and knowledgeable Wikipiedians will help you assess it. Guy (help!) 07:12, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I retract the word biased. Also, I now know what you meant by edit filter. As far as noticing the difference between the URLs, that was my point. If you follow my directions on the website, it shows you that the main URL for the hall of fame leads you to the Bio on a WordPress URL. It is obvious that the hall of fame is legitimately hosting its bios on Wordpress, rare or not. No help needed to figure that out. However, when it comes to the URLs for the Sport Image Times, the issues you pointed out were true. I learned several things from this interaction, which I neglected to say before. For sources such as this in the future, I shall be more judicious. <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 17:29, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , well now, the WP:ONUS is on the editor seeking to include disputed, to gain consensus for that. You can avoid this in future by (a) noting in the edit summary that the link is the official site or (b) posting a note to talk explaining it. I am glad you have done that, thank you. But it's not down to anyone else to do detective work to prove that content you want to include is not a copyright violation or whatever. Guy (help!) 17:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, agreed the onus is on the editor; that seems to be commonsense. I have noted the methods you cited for future use. Thank you. <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 18:00, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Updating Awards for 2020
Hi, just coming here to say I'm so glad you were here to update the award winners for this year's PBR's World Finals. I had been seriously ill at that time, just coming out of the hospital not long before. It looked great when you were done. I still may need to do some updating of the sources, but when I took a quick look earlier, it looked pretty good. It's nice not to be the only watching these articles. I see a lot of good stuff around that are doing and I really don't need to do much on your edits anymore...maybe add a source here and there occasionally. I hope you had a good holiday! <i style="color:#800000;">dawnleelynn</i>(talk) 20:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Dawn. It’s good to hear from you. I’m very sorry to hear that you were sick, but also glad to know that you have since recovered. I try to update award winners as soon as I can. I really appreciate your feedback. I hope you had a great holiday yourself. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 04:16, 31 January 2021 (UTC)