Talk:List of VFL/AFL premiers

older entries
When the Sydney Swans were called South Melbourne their nickname was the Bloods.

Paul Melville Austin (grandson of John W. Austin South Melbourne Premiership team 1933)


 * Weren't South Melbourne also the Swans from the 1930's onwards because of their heavy recruiting of Western Australians? Blackmissionary 09:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Todo
Geelong's 2009 Grand Final win over St Kilda is not listed in the Premiership by club page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.96.37 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

New team, the Gold Coast Suns, stats aren't included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.208.118.68 (talk) 03:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Add VFA premiers from when it was the top-level competition.

What do the **'s next to certain games mean?


 * The VFL/AFL has never counted pre-VFL VFA premierships towards club tallies. Blackmissionary 09:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I've got a few things to suggest for this list (and I haven't bothered to do them because I don't believe in extensive menial labour prior to reaching a consensus). Please comment on whether they'd be good. - Combining the "Year" and "Details for the season" columns into a "Season" column, since the pages for the year aren't generally relevant to the AFL/VFL. This is consistent with what's done on featured lists similar to this one (English football champions and Swedish football champions). - Adding a minor premiers column. - Turn the Trivia into Notes linked from various seasons, seeing as Trivia sections seem to be frowned upon at Wikipedia.

I'd also like to enquire as to whether the images as used here are really fair use. I tend to stay away from images because I've got all the artistic talent of a koala on Vegemite, but I do recall reading that fair use images are supposed to be accompanied by a relevant description (or something). Would be good if someone more knowledgeable in this area could clear this up. Omdal 16:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

one thing that needs to be cleaned up is the references to Brisbane and Fitzroy. in one table Brisbane Lions and Fitzroy are coupled together, where as the Brisbane Bears are seperate, another has all 3 seperate, and a third puts the Brisbane Bears and Lions together yet has Fitzroy seperate. there needs to be consistancy with all 3 tables. Lynx Raven Raide 01:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

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Premiership Frequency list
Fitzroy, Brisban Bears and Brisbane lions deserve extra lines on this table, illustrating various merger / interpretations. The Brisbane bears had 10 seasons without a grand final before becoming the Lions, and Fitzroy had not been successful for a long time before the merge either. The continuity should be acknowledged. After all from the point of view of the fans of these teams they didn't just up and transfer their loyalties; their loyalty did not changed, and masking this behind reverts is in a way, perhaps pre-empting the statistics that a viewer "needs to know" rather than allowing a little amount of leeway for a more flexible interpretation. I think if a user wants to ignore this new, slightly less strict methodology they are entitled to, but it should not be commanded by the page. Rhonjimbomp (talk) 06:10, 4 July 2009 (UTC) rhonjimbomp

Fitzroy/Brisbane Lions
Aren't they one franchise? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.57.189 (talk) 20:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * When Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears merged at the end of the 1996 season, they became a new legal entity separate from the two previous clubs. This meant that the AFL history of Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears stopped in 1996, and the Brisbane Lions' AFL history began in 1997. Hope this helps. Lindblum (talk) 13:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * And I must point out that Fitzroy was never a franchise. It was a football club in the original sense. Not sure about the two Brisbane incarnations. HiLo48 (talk) 20:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

It does make sense to list Fitzroy as a separate entity which was wound up and merged into Brisbane in 1997, however it doesn't really make sense to list Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions separately, because they were and are one and the same entity. I propose to change the list to combine the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions, with an accumulated total into a single entry on the table. Njb1969 (talk) 00:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To a certain extent, the continuity of a football club is an arbitrary matter. A good example is North Melbourne, which is said to have formed in 1874, but actually disbanded/amalgamated and then reformed as a separate club in 1876-77, 1908 and 1921 – so there have probably technically been four separate North Melbournes. The Northern Blues have an even more convoluted continuity. On the matter of Brisbane, the Lions and Bears are basically always treated as separate clubs in AFL publications, and throughout the rest of Wikipedia. This conventional treatment is to me a more important factor than Lindblum's comment about them being a new legal entity. But the end result is the same, and the clubs will remain treated as separate entities in the table. Aspirex (talk) 07:06, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Updates post 2012
I have made a few changes to this page: Aspirex (talk) 06:48, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I got rid of the 'Time' column. This column of numbers between 2:00 and 3:00 is not particularly useful
 * I've rationalised the score into a single cell, which is easier to interpret.
 * I colour-coded the different types of Grand Finals which took place in the early days. I think there is a general lack of understanding about what the early "Grand Finals" were, and the fact that some seasons could have had a challenge final after what we now believe to be the GF. I think the colour coding is the best way to draw attention to this.
 * I split the VFL section of the table into pre-1931 and post-1931. Mostly cosmetic, it helps make the tables more manageable, I think.
 * I removed the "win ratio" table from the 'Premiership tally' table. For the reasons described above regarding challenge matches, etc., these numbers and their true meaning is too much up for debate and misrepresentation.
 * I removed the colour coding on teams no longer competing.
 * I got rid of the Current Droughts section - if it isn't notable as a long drought, then it's not notable.
 * Got rid of the notes per wikipedia trivia guidelines.
 * Did my best to eliminate the need for excessive footnoting and clarification of what is and isn't included in different numbers.

1999 AFL premiers – "North Melbourne" or "Kangaroos"
There is a difference of opinion amongst various editors regarding whether to list the 1999 premiers as 'North Melbourne' or 'Kangaroos'. To open this question up to a wider audience of WP:AFL editors, and set the consensus as a standard for all pages where it may be of use, the discussion is being held on the following talk page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football. Aspirex (talk) 22:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I think the discussion should be held here, with the WT:AFL post just a notification/alert, so that the discussion is more really found in the future. Secondly, I initially thought that it should be listed as North Melbourne, with a footnote that they were known as Kangaroos at the time, so that sorting and counting of premierships is clear that the same club that won in 77 and 96 also won in 99. But them I thought what would we do if the Bulldogs won one in the coming years? What about Sydney/South Melbourne? And I don't wasn't to think about Fitzroy/Brisbane. Obviously those name changes are a but more permanent, but they completely preclude the sorting/listing approach/benefit that I mentioned earlier. So, thinking a bit laterally, and using some wiki magic, I purpose that we use the sort function to group team name changes together, but show the name of the day, and maybe add a footnote to explain the name changes. This should be used on the SM/Sydney wins too. I'm not sure about having the number of flags in brackets after the team name. If it is to stay then (1) needs to be added to all first flags, but I think it would be best in a separate column. The-Pope (talk) 00:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The team should be listed as "Kangaroos" for any seasons between 1999 and 2007, for the same reasons that South Melbourne/Sydney and Footscray/Western Bulldogs are listed separately, despite being effectively the same club. I agree with The-Pope with regards to using footnotes and sorting.  IgnorantArmies  03:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that the sort function would be an effective solution. I disagree with the need for footnoting; I think if the summary table includes both names, as it does today with Footscray and South Melbourne, then that is sufficient; plus, as we've seen before, this article ends up as a mess when every little irregularity is given a footnote. I'm fine with adding (1) after the first flag for each event, and I think the parenthetical format is preferable to having a separate column – in fact, I'd sooner remove the numbers altogether than include them in their own column. There's an extra column for number of wins in Norris Trophy, which to me makes that information more difficult to interpret; the parenthetical format is seen at List of NFL champions (which is consistent with not numbering the first win); the format with no numbers is seen at List of Stanley Cup winners. Aspirex (talk) 03:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Mysteries
1. What do the numbers in brackets refer to? eg "Sydney (5) Hawthorn (6)"

2. Why do we waste a whole column listing who held the TV rights? This is not very relevant or interesting. It would be much more interesting to list the premiership coach and captain. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 09:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The number represents the number of times that club has won or finished second (e.g. Sydney's fifth premiership, Hawthorn's 6th runner-up). It's not explained, but it's typical of formatting on some other lists of premiers in Wikipedia. Aspirex (talk) 10:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * It needs to be explained in the article. And re the TV rights details - who holds them is far less important than what has been paid for them. HiLo48 (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Premiership droughts
, as you requested it – in what way do the tables that I added fall under WP:INDISCRIMINATE?  4TheWynne (talk) (contribs)  08:51, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Refer WP:INDISCRIMINATE point 3: "Excessive listings of unexplained statistics. Statistics that lack context or explanation can reduce readability and may be confusing; accordingly, statistics should be placed in tables to enhance readability, and articles with statistics should include explanatory text providing context. Where statistics are so lengthy as to impede the readability of the article, the statistics can be split into a separate article and summarized in the main article. (e.g., statistics from the main article United States presidential election, 2012 have been moved to a related article Nationwide opinion polling for the United States presidential election, 2012)." We now have an article which, thanks to the enthusiasm of editor Christopher J Hogg's efforts to put in minor grades premierships, has eleven tables. Adding two more tables full of even more drought statistics greatly impedes the readability of this article. Most current droughts are not notable, and listing longest drought by club borders on statscruft – i.e. statistics for the sake of statistics. This sort of thing should be left to AFLtables.com, which serves the statistical needs of the AFL community more appropriately than Wikipedia. I think we should extend the cut-off for droughts in the overall table to thirty years and make it the only droughts table in the article, remove the grand final results for minor grades, and remove the consecutive grand finals table – in the interests of overall readability of the article. Aspirex (talk) 09:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


 * But that's just it – it's a list, and that doesn't necessarily mean that there should be a limit as to how many statistical elements there should be. If what you're suggesting is that the statistical elements (past the premiers/results table, as indicated in the title) be split into another article (e.g. "Australian Football League premiership and grand final statistics" or something), then that doesn't sound unreasonable. But all of these individual tables contain useful statistics, and aren't just "for the sake of statistics" – if you're going to remove my additions, you might as well remove all of the tables, as they are all just as useful as each other. I disagree with your readability argument (you need not include the rest of point 3, as it wasn't even an issue), as there is no specific limit as to how many statistical elements there should be on any page, let alone a list.  4TheWynne (talk) (contribs)  09:45, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


 * If no further action is taken/response is made, then I would like to either create the suggested article and move the appropriate content there, or add back the premiership drought tables that were removed still, in my opinion, without a substantial enough reason.  4TheWynne (talk) (contribs)  11:20, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I have gone with the former option.  4TheWynne (talk) (contribs)  05:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that's the best solution, but I'm satisfied with it. I do however see a need for the overall summary table (i.e. Carlton - 16, Essendon - 16, Collingwood - 15, etc.) to be duplicated back onto the main page, so I'll do that. Aspirex (talk) 06:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * If so, be sure to use the table from the new article – I fixed/tidied each table when I copied them over for use on the new article.  4TheWynne (talk) (contribs)  06:14, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Done, but can you check that Brisbane Bears and Lions aren't combined in any of the tables. I noticed they'd been combined in the new article, and it's the long-standing consensus that these be treated as separate clubs for statistical purposes. Aspirex (talk) 06:21, 17 October 2017 (UTC)