Talk:List of companions of the Order of Australia

Title
Any objections to moving this to "List of Companions of the Order of Australia"? -- JackofOz (talk) 06:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * No? Done.  --  JackofOz (talk) 09:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Table format
Great work by User:Pdfpdf in coming up with the basic outline of the new table format and doing the bulk of the work in filling in the gaps. Just a couple of queries, though.


 * Do we really need a separate column for their titles? I can't see that one would ever need to know how many Drs, how many Professors, how many Sirs etc there are in the list.  I'd prefer Sir Joe Bloggs to appear in the 2nd column as "Sir Joe Bloggs".  Then we can remove the 1st column and reduce the size of the article, which is pushing the envelope at the moment.
 * "Do we really need a separate column for their titles? " - It is my understanding that yes, for technical reasons, we really do need a separate column. Template:Sortname does not have a "prefix" parameter; first last creates,   , and hence allows you to sort by surname. If you prefix it with the title, it will sort by the prefix, not the surname.
 * If you know a way to deal with this problem, please advise. (There are several pages where I would like to use such a technique.)
 * I've done it; it's not too hard. We were already doing it for some entries, such as Lady Casey, where the given name was "Lady (Maie)" and the surname was "Casey", but it linked to Maie Casey, Baroness Casey.  I just applied the same principle to all entries that had a title.  She will still sort under Casey; Sir Peter Abeles will still sort under Abeles, etc--  JackofOz (talk) 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (Yes, but note that it will sort under "Abeles, Sir" rather than "Abeles, Peter". However, I expect no-one will notice!!! Pdfpdf (talk) 15:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
 * Talk about "great minds think alike" ... I was in the process of doing the same, did a save, and got an edit conflict! Fortunately, I hadn't done the complete list ... Pdfpdf (talk) 15:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (BTW: What I was talking about above was "Sir {{sortname|Peter" . It wasn't till later that "{{sortname|Sir Peter" occurred to me. Ho hum. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
 * (Also, as I now understand what happened with the edit conflict:) I can live with my lost changes - it just means there are some inconsistencies. If the inconsistencies annoy anyone enough, they will no doubt change them. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For the sake of anyone else reading this: I edited the list to remove the title column. It had to be done in one go, because every entry had to be changed.  While I was busily making the changes, Pdfpdf made a whole series of other edits each of which only affected certain entries.  When I finally pressed save, his intermediary changes were apparent.  I reviewed his changes, and essentially had to redo them by incorporating them "manually" into my big edit.  I did all but the cosmetic ones, because it had already taken me close to 2 hours and it was getting past my beddy-bye time.  Next time I do something like this, I'll get up at 3am when other interested parties are not likely to be around. --  JackofOz (talk) 08:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol! You'd better make it 4am - if you look at my edit history, you'll see that (sadly) I'm still frequently editing at 3am! (Yes, I know, I really need to get a life.) Pdfpdf (talk) 11:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "I can't see that one would ever need to know how many Drs, how many Professors, how many Sirs etc there are in the list." - No, me neither.
 * "I'd prefer Sir Joe Bloggs to appear in the 2nd column as "Sir Joe Bloggs"." - Yes, so would I, but not at the expense of losing the ability to sort by surname.


 * Other awards (Knight Bachelor, CMG, ...): Are these relevant here?  We could really go overboard with such details if we felt like it, but to what purpose?  If we want to know more information about a particular AC, the link is there (and redlinks will be made blue soon enough, God willing).  This article should be confined to information about ACs - who, when, why.   --  JackofOz (talk) 09:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You may not have noticed that last night I started going through removing the non-knighthoods from people with blue links. As I said in the edit comment, I believed/believe that column was/is too cluttered
 * No, I missed that. Good to see great minds thinking alike.  --  JackofOz (talk) 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Are these relevant here?" - Relevant is not the only issue. The way I see it:
 * 1) For the blue links without knighthoods, no, they are not relevant.
 * 2) For the blue links with knighthoods, I thought the links to the knighthoods would be good, but having read your comments, no, they are not relevant.
 * 3) For the red links, they, and other information in the table, provide a-collection-of-information-all-in-the-one-place of sources for turning the red links blue. When the links are blue, see 1) & 2)
 * Fair point. --  JackofOz (talk) 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "We could really go overboard with such details if we felt like it, but to what purpose?" - Agreed.
 * "If we want to know more information about a particular AC, the link is there" - Agreed
 * "(and redlinks will be made blue soon enough, God willing)." - I am less optimistic ...
 * I was of course using a geological time scale. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. (I still think you're optimistic ... ) ;-) Pdfpdf (talk) 15:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "This article should be confined to information about ACs - who, when, why." - In the case of the blue links: Agreed. In the case of the red links: Disagree. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Cheers.  --  JackofOz (talk) 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"Unsourced" information
There is quite a bit of information in the table, particularly for the red links, which is unsourced. Providing sources would facilitate the conversion of the red links into blue. It would also solve my puzzle as to where the information came from, and why I can't find it! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Ex-companions
We note that Richard Pratt resigned his Companionship (under duress), but there's also Brian Burke, who was stripped of his. Here’s a list of people who quit or were sacked from the Order. It seems fairly comprehensive. At a glance, the only Companion was Burke, but I might be mistaken.

Any ideas about how to treat such people? -- (Jack of Oz =) 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Very carefully, at any rate. A mis-identification could be defamatory. I wouldn't rely on a newspaper list. Maybe try It's an Honour, Media Centre. --Wikiain (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * OK. Well, for now, I've created Category:Former Companions of the Order of Australia as a sub-category of the main Companions category.  We could do similar ones for former Officers, Members etc.  I've populated the new cat with Burke and Pratt, because their status as former Companions (in Pratt's case, as a late former Companion) is very well cited.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  00:56, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

This report says there have been 6 Companions stripped of their awards. I know of 2. Does that journo know something we don't? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  09:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't like to be rude about journos, used car salesmen or real estate agents, but ... Pdfpdf (talk) 11:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/alan-howe Hmmm. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Resignations
We say: R – Resignations (Only one to-date – 2008). That was Richard Pratt. But what about Brian Burke, who also appears in Category:Former Companions of the Order of Australia. Or was his forcibly removed from him, as distinct from being handed back voluntarily? --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  05:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Dunno. Also, not sure the best way to handle it, either. Advice? Opinions? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:48, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW: Burke doesn't seem to appear on the List of Companions of the Order of Australia page any more, whereas Pratt does. Does anyone know why Burke doesn't appear? (Disclaimer/Opinion: I think both should appear.) Pdfpdf (talk) 11:53, 12 March 2014 (UTC)


 * OK. I've tracked down a handy list of all former members (small m) of the Order of Australia, the reasons they resigned or were stripped of their honours, and the relevant years.  See Peter Mickelburough, "Social leaders stripped of honours after falling from grace", Herald Sun, 6 June 2013.  This tells us Burke was stripped rather than resigning.


 * Yes, we should have a separate section for all former Companions, with whatever details we are aware of. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Now done. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The wrong Hiroshi Saitō
See Talk:Hiroshi Saitō (mayor). I believe we've linked the wrong person, but I have no idea who the right person is. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Morrish (Tim) Besley
Morrish Besley is generally known as "Tim", e.g. Tim Besley. A change, however, should make sure that he does not get confused with the British economist Tim Besley. --Wikiain (talk) 23:50, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ta. (Have incorporated info into table.) Pdfpdf (talk) 00:38, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Australian Defence Force Rank abbreviations
For reasons I haven't been able to determine, at some time (that I also haven't been able to determine) "it was decided" that ADF Rank abbreviations will be all caps / block caps / upper-case, and since then we've been stuck with it.

I haven't been able to track down the relevant regulation(s) or policy document(s) yet, but here are some "official" references: ADF Badges of rank; Air Force Ranks. (This is a "standard" page that appears in (almost) every issue of "Air Force: The official newspaper of the RAAF")   ; Army and Navy are less forth-coming.

Many people don't like this usage, and have all sorts of rationales and "justifications" for ignoring or avoiding it. A notable example is from the editor of "Army News"!
 * ADF rank is abbreviated in upper-case because it is the style of the ADF. Army uses common English abbreviation style of lower-casing letters that are lower-case when spelled in full. This is our style and it makes sense – Editor. - "One uniform to another"

Recently, a couple of editors who think the official abbreviations look ugly have used some other form of abbreviation.

My question is:
 * If you are not going to use the official abbreviation, what are you going to use, and why?

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Comments / discussion

 * Opening comments:
 * I don't like the appearance of "MAJGEN" and "LTGEN" (i.e. my opinion)
 * Where, in my opinion, it is possible / sensible / acceptable, I intend to avoid using them - e.g. Instead of AIRMSHL, I intend to use Air Marshal.
 * However, although (in my opinion) using "Major" instead of MAJ is unlikely to upset anyone (perhaps more a hope than an expectation?), there are situations where, for example, "Lieutenant General" is too long to fit into the small hole provided.
 * Often, "word wrap" might address the size problem, but in my opinion, it can look worse than upper-case.
 * In my opinion, the rank should NOT be more prominent that the name of the person (e.g. I think that both Lieutenant General Smith and LTGEN Smith divert attention from the person who happens to be the Lieutenant General.)
 * Maj-Gen, Lt-Gen, Major-General and Lieutenant-General are all British conventions.
 * Why should we use British conventions in preference to Australian conventions on a page about Companions of the Order of Australia?
 * I can't think of a "best solution", or even a "one rule covers all situations" solution - except than to use the standard Australian ADF abbreviations ...
 * I hope somebody CAN think of a better solution.
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Does this help: Australian War Memorial? It seems to stand alone - the house style manual that I can find does not contain rank abbreviations; rather, they seem to mean that this page conforms generally to the house style. The relevant thing seems to be that it reflects the AWM database. That database presumably is applicable to all historical periods, including the present.
 * I wouldn't be concerned about using a convention that Australia took over from the British. And, in any case, if Australia has adopted a British rank - such as "Lieutenant-General" - that simply is an Australian's title. The only issue is how it should be abbreviated.
 * What I am concerned about is using an abbreviation convention that Australians (and others) would not readily grasp. I had to think a couple or times about "MAJGEN", which it first occurred to me was a power company. And I expect it's only the top ranks that we have to bother about: I doubt that anybody who gets an AC will want to style themself "AC Kim Smith AC".
 * Thus I would commend the AWM's convention, both for its comprehensibility to all and for, being of the AWM, having approval from military circles. I would commend it as a "one rule covers all" for encylopedia purposes.
 * (I'll skip what JackofOz has just written, which went in as I was writing this.) --Wikiain (talk) 03:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Does this help: - Dunno. Unsure of its status. I guess we could use it and put a footnote on the page saying: "This page uses the style guide defined here." What do you think?
 * What I am concerned about is using an abbreviation convention that Australians (and others) would not readily grasp. - Good point.
 * I had to think a couple or times about "MAJGEN" - Hmmm. I guess it comes down to assumptions about target audiences (TAs). If the TA was just military, then it would be reasonable to assume the TA would know what "MAJGEN" meant. But as you say, the TA is not "just military". Hmmm. Another good point.
 * We don't have consensus already, do we? (If so, that would have to be some sort of record, wouldn't it?)
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 03:51, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The two of us seem to have reached agreement, but a couple of other people have been involved - on this page and elsewhere. I'd refer to the AWM page as a "practice", not a style guide - it refers to a style guide that is located elsewhere on the AWM site. Salut, --Wikiain (talk) 04:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I made the same point (about the TA being not just military types), on my talk page, but Pdfpdf seemed to strongly disagree at that stage. Maybe he was delirious with lack of sleep, who knows.  Now, it's a "good point", so I'm glad to see the return of sanity.  Isn't it wonderful how a good sleep can make things seem different in the morning.  Anyway, I fully support your suggestion, Wikiain.  (Btw, I've removed the argy-bargy about the "rules" - it was thorougly counter-productive right from the start.) --   Jack of Oz  --Wikiain (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2011 (UTC) [your turn]  04:22, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Regarding the AWM page:
 * "Air Chief Marshal - &mdash;" - Strange! - Presumably we'll continue to use ACM?
 * "Air Marshal" is not on the list. "Official" abbrev is the very very ugly AIRMSHL - What are people's thoughts/preferences?
 * "Air Vice Marshal" is not on the list. Presumably we'll continue to use AVM?
 * There are some interesting other uses, but as none of them are likely to appear on a "List of Companions of the Order of Australia", I think they are a red herring wrt this discussion. As for "Field Marshal", "Admiral of the Fleet" and "Marshal of the Royal Australian Air Force", I don't think they're likely to be an issue either.
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 04:47, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

My impression is that we may have consensus on not losing any more sleep over using the AWM page as a model. I would suggest referencing it as "Summary of Australian War Memorial practice". Any ranks that might not appear in that model might be referred to in the same style. I'd be happy for anyone who has done original hard yakka on the page to do the necessary. --Wikiain (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That AWM link is not the authoratitive document. The best reference to using capitals would come from the ADF document Defence Writing Standards which clearly states in para 3.52e that "Specific ranks, when abbreviated, are shown in capitals, without spaces and without any punctuation, for example, LCDR, COL and GPCAPT." The full list of abbreviations is in ADFP 103 which does not seem available on the web but is well represented elsewhere within Wikipedia. Further reading of the Defence Standard does say that it is prefereable to use the full unabbreviated form outside of Defence as the general community may not be familiar with the abbreviations. If it is required on this page then it should be done to the standard. --Oliver Nouther (talk) 00:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Oliver: I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but I think you may have missed the point. There's no doubt in my mind (or others I think) that the Official Abbreviations are all-upper-case.
 * The question in hand here is: "For a general non-military-audience reading about Companions of the Order of Australia, what should we put on this wikipedia page as abbreviations for the ADF ranks so that a non-military reader will know what the abbreviations mean".
 * If the pre-noms and titles were in a separate column of their own, then we could put what-ever-we-liked and hyper-link to what-ever-it-means. But a while back, it was agreed that we'd stuff up the sorting a little bit and embed the pre-noms and titles into the "sortname" template values, thus meaning we can no longer hyper-link the abbreviations.
 * Aside: Having spent last night trying to compare the so-called-sorted wikipage, (which is sorted by: surname by pre-nom by commonly used first name(s)), with a list sorted by: surname by actual first name(s), I can see significant advantages to reimplementing the "prenoms * titles" column. But I think I'll keep quite about that for the forseeable future.
 * That the AWM link is not the authoratitive document is not the primary issue. The primary issue is that a significant proportion of the growth of the AWM's audience is from the general non-military population, and this link is the AWM's approach to attempting to communicate with ALL of their audience, not just the bit of their audience that knows what it's talking about.
 * Yes, I agree that the best link for Defence writing standards, (which targets a Defence audience) is the one you quoted. But please note - this page is not targeting a Defence audience.
 * Your thoughts? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Oliver: part of what follows got in by itself at a moment of edit conflict and I've deleted that in favour of the full version here. It was written just before the last comment from Pdfpdf, which I fully agree with.
 * ADFP 102 Item 3.52 is headed "Specific defence usage" and begins: "Capitals often have specific uses within Defence writing which can vary from those suggested in the Style Manual." If one insists that WP must follow 3.52e, then consistently one should insist on the equally authoritative 3.52c: "Names of specific ships, aircraft and vehicles are expressed entirely in capitals and are not italicised, for example, HMAS ADELAIDE, SOUTHERN CROSS and BLUEBIRD."  For WP, I think not.
 * The final page of ADFP 102 (and cp Item 1.10) shows that the "Style Manual" is the Style manual for authors, editors and printers published by the Commonwealth government - apparently not available online. One could find a library copy. But whatever the Style Manual may say cannot be finally determinative for a non-government publication such as our own.
 * I would agree with the ADF if it is saying that to give a rank name in full is better for the general community than using an abbreviation consisting of unspaced capitals, but that takes us all the way to Square One of this. Can we move on, now? --Wikiain (talk) 01:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Whatever! Please let's move on.--Oliver Nouther (talk) 02:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to move on too, but to where/what? What has been agreed upon, if anything?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

(arbitrary section break to facilitate editing)
ROTFL! (My thoughts exactly!) Pdfpdf (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what ROTFL is, but perhaps I'd better not ask. I had in mind what I suggested yesterday, that for this purpose WP should adopt as a model the AWM page. I also suggested referencing it as "Summary of Australian War Memorial practice" and that any ranks that might not appear in that model might be referred to in the same style. It had appeared to me that, by now, there is at least no objection to going that way. --Wikiain (talk) 03:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, I agree with that and I ** think ** everyone else does too. Just that it wasn't really clear from some of the foregoing that this was in fact the case.  (Btw, ROTFL means "Roll on the floor laughing".)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  05:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds good - I now leave this floor. Though, as to some details in the proposed list: Dame is equivalent to Knight (see e.g. Order of Australia), not to Lord; Cardinal, Lord and Lady are not abbreviations; Chief Justice and Justice are occupations rather than titles, and abbreviated as post-noms "CJ" and "J" respectively, but only while occupying those offices. --Wikiain (talk) 05:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Great, let's use a random unattributable set of abbreviations from a page that refers to but does not actually reference, some in house style (albeit from a venerable institution). Oh and in case that doesn't cover it all, we'll make the rest up. Sounds good to me. --Oliver Nouther (talk) 09:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. I agree with you. And I agree with Jack's "I agree with that and I ** think ** everyone else does too" as far as it goes . But as Jack aluded, and as you've stated, I don't think it goes far enough. It seems to me that your summary neatly highlights the shortcomings of the proposed solution.
 * I started with: "If you are not going to use the official abbreviations, what are you going to use, and why?"
 * Wikian replied (my words): "Well, we could use "this", because the AWM have grappled with the same problem, and "this" is the solution they came up with.
 * I replied. "Fair enough. Sounds reasonable." But when I examined it, I found there are holes in it. So I further replied: "There are holes in it. What are we going to fill the holes with?"
 * I got no reply.
 * As you concisely point out, we are now in the position you describe. However, unlike your stated (tongue-in-cheek) conclusion, I do not think it's ideal. (BTW: I think your: "we'll make the rest up" is a teensy weensy bit harsh - I did try to use "stuff" from a reliable source ... )
 * Hence, I constructed the table below to address Jack's, your, and my concerns about just what it is that we have agreed on, just what it is that we are moving on from, and, perhaps, just what it is we are moving on to. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

(proposed) new section on page: "List of abbreviations"
I propose something like the following become a section on the "List of Companions of the Order of Australia" wikipage. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:38, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * List of abbreviations and titles used on this page
 * [1] http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/AJRP2.nsf/db281b271191efc3ca2565d20081e7a6/a64097fdf564d119ca2565e70011a347?OpenDocument
 * [2] http://www.defence.gov.au/images/Badges_of_rank.pdf
 * [?]

discussion
... as to some details in the proposed list: Dame is equivalent to Knight (see e.g. Order of Australia), not to Lord; Cardinal, Lord and Lady are not abbreviations; Chief Justice and Justice are occupations rather than titles, and abbreviated as post-noms "CJ" and "J" respectively, but only while occupying those offices. --Wikiain (talk) 05:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Dame is equivalent to Knight (see e.g. Order of Australia), not to Lord; - That aligns with my thinking. Nevertheless, the "Dame" wikipage says said: "A female Lord or Seigneur, or the wife of one". (Or at least, it did until 1 minute ago.) - Right! That solves that one!
 * Cardinal, Lord and Lady are not abbreviations - I didn't say they were. (i.e. Please re-read the table & column headers.)
 * Chief Justice and Justice are occupations rather than titles - If you say so. Please explain why they are being used as titles in the table (and other places too).
 * Thanks for the feedback. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 08:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

33 months later ...
Unsurprisingly, no-one is willing to "die in a ditch" over this ... Pdfpdf (talk) 11:43, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

VCDF/CJOPS
The role of the VCDF since 1986 included that of CJOPS, however the CJOPS role in its current form did not exist. Splitting the two roles to form a new department created the command we know today. By this means if Gillespie is to have CJOPS listed then every VCDF until him should have it listed, his notability as having CJOPS authority along with the other nine double-hatters comes into question.

Rationalising year columns
I'd like to propose that the three year columns (Born, Awarded, Died) appear together, thus:

To me, it's more natural that the award come between birth and death, and it looks cleaner. Any comments before I start to implement this? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:21, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment (Jan 2017)
(Rather sensibly in my biased POV), the article makes extensive use of "xxxx A" for Australia Day (i.e. 26 Jan xxxx), and "yyyy Q" for "Second Monday in June, yyyy". Great! (in my biased POV). However, that has an impact on how "we" express the other 363/364 days of the year. Please note that a significant issue is: the use of the dts template is not compatible with "xxxx A" / "yyyy Q". Note, however, that zzzz-mm-dd IS compatible ... Pdfpdf (talk) 12:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Missing articles & Missing birthdates
Lots of these, but I can't find enough info to create articles. Starting alphabetically:

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160612070942/http://www.gg.gov.au/australian-honours-and-awards/australian-honours-lists to http://www.gg.gov.au/australian-honours-and-awards/australian-honours-lists
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170126101832/https://www.gg.gov.au/sites/default/files/files/honours/ad/ad2017/slkh83xzcb/O%20of%20A%20-%20Gazette.pdf to http://www.gg.gov.au/sites/default/files/files/honours/ad/ad2017/slkh83xzcb/O%20of%20A%20-%20Gazette.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:25, 17 May 2017 (UTC)