Talk:List of faculty and alumni of the Académie Julian

Untitled
For additionnal references, please see here: Oxfordindex, Universalis,   Treccani,  Highbeam,  Jstor--DDupard (talk) 09:02, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Status of academiejulian website
User:DDupard, you have recently added two citations of https://sites.google.com/site/academiejulian/ which you labelled as "Académie Julian site". I am concerned that this may self-published and thus potentially unreliable, per WP:Verifiability. I can see no indication of an author or a publisher other than copyright©vallin2010. It is suspicious that the opening paragraph of the home page is identical to that in Académie Julian. This paragraph was added to French Wikipeda in 2006, before the copyright date of the suspect website, but it is possible that they were both copied from a common source. Because of this I am unhappy about using this site as a source. Its list of Elèves et professeurs might have been copied from Wikipedia, making it a Wikipedia mirror not suitable for citing. Can you reassure me about this site? If it can be shown to be by an author or institution with a good reputation in the field then it is citeable even if it is a blog. Otherwise I think we should either delete the citations or tag them with Template:Self-published source, Template:Self-published inline, Template:Unreliable source? or Template:Better source. See Identifying reliable sources. Thank you for your work on this article. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Académie Julian was active for a hundred years, quite a number of students have passed through the place. For a proper contribution one needs to be abble to access information; Oxford-Index for example, only gives partial content to the browser, one has to be registered to access full info. As far as the website is concerned, I have no information about its authors, nor have I "suspicions" of any sorts.--DDupard (talk) 06:44, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * User:DDupard, I have free access to Oxford Art Online, including the full Benezit articles, through a UK public library membership. If you are not a UK resident then you may be able to access it through The Wikipedia Library. I have checked a few (not all) of the citations that you have added, hence some of the tags that I have added recently. Regarding the academiejulian website, I think it is not a full Wikipedia mirror, and is derived from sources other than Wikipedia. Its list of students appears to be longer than those on English or French Wikipedia. However, it is a self-published source, and I will tag it as such. Where possible please cite sources that are clearly reputable, and if you cite a self-published source then tag it as such. Verbcatcher (talk) 10:28, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Verbcatcher At the bottom of this page it states: "Liste établie d'après les documents déposés aux archives nationales et référencés 63 AS, Fonds de l’Académie Julian.",  copyright « vallin », profile here  archives here  or . It should then be considered a primary source quite appropriate for a list.--DDupard (talk) 16:02, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, the splitting of the article does not seem to fit the framework of a trans-wiki lay out norm for 26 different languages on this international encyclopedia.--DDupard (talk) 16:10, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * User:DDupard, The documents in the French National Archive are a primary source, and as such are not suitable as a source. The academiejulian webpage is a secondary source, and is better for citing. If you have correctly identified "vallin" as Gérard Vallin, a director of ESAG Penninghen (the successor institution to the Académie Julian) then the perceived reliability of the website is enhanced. WP:USERGENERATED says "Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications." My brief web search didn't find any publications by Vallin, but I feel that his job should be adequate justification. I will change the tags from Template:Self-published inline to Template:Self-published source with |expert=y which has the effect of moving the notice from the main text to the reference and removes the citation from Category:Accuracy disputes. It is merely a note that a better source such as Benezit would be preferred. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * User:DDupard, is there a Wikipedia initiative to coordinate the structure of articles in all 294 Wikipedias? That would be a Herculean task. None of the articles in Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style look likely to give guidance on this. I based the name and layout of the list article on the List of people associated with the London School of Economics. This is a common arrangement: see the articles in the subcategories of Category:Lists of people by university or college. The decision on whether include lists in an article will depend on the size of the lists and on the importance of the lists in the context of the parent article. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:51, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Lists of notable professors and students
See the discussion in Talk:Académie Julian.

Format of lists
User:DDupard, as the lists are here we can be more expansive in their format. I favour a sortable table, and propose the following format, with separate tables for faculty and alumni This is clearer for our readers, and gives more information. I am prepared to convert this current list into this format. What do you think? Verbcatcher (talk) 19:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Verbcatcher (talk) 19:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that grouping by nationality, illustrates the global reaching of the "académie", and the worldwide interest. If that could be part of your scheme, then fine. I like the inclusion of dates. Could there be an additional column for the ref, like here  (more or less) which was my reason for asking technical help, --DDupard (talk) 19:20, 8 October 2016 (UTC)


 * With the current format you can group by nationality by clicking on the triangles in the column header. We can make the default sorting in any order (set by the order in the raw text), but sorting by name is conventional in lists of people. We can easily move the references to a separate column; there is little point where this is just a number but it would be tidier where there is a message tag. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:36, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Page title and terminology
User:DDupard, you have renamed theis page from List of people associated with the Académie Julian to List of faculty and alumni from the Académie Julian. I see the following problems: I was happy with the original name, or we could have List of Académie Julian people
 * 1) It is unusual to end a page name with a full stop.
 * 2) It should be of the, not from the.
 * 3) The name does not match any the usual formats for equivalent list articles, see Category:Lists of people by university or college in France and Category:Lists of people by university or college in the United States.

Should we use faculty, professors or teachers, and alumni, students or artists? Faculty and alumni are mainly US English not British English, but that does not rule them out. In British English and to a leser extent in US English professor means a senior teacher, while in French I think professeur does not imply seniority. We should not have artists for the alumni because the teachers were also artists and some students may be best known in other fields. I favour teachers and students. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have already mentionned : Enough disorganisation. Please leave it alone, it is fine as is. "People" is vague and generic . --DDupard (talk) 19:55, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, corrected the full stop, but cannot proceed with "List of faculty and alumni of the Académie Julian", which should, indeed be the proper title. My apologies.--DDupard (talk) 20:50, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have requested the move at Requested moves/Technical requests, see WP:RM. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Perfect, thanks, It's getting late here, should go--DDupard (talk) 21:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Epilogue
Dear Verbcatcher, I trust that you are going to craft a beautiful page, judging by the glimpse you offered above. I am going to be traveling for the next two weeks with only mobile device access to wikipedia. So best to you --DDupard (talk) 07:45, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Red-linked professors
Following the discussion in this talk page and in Talk:Académie Julian, I am removing the following names from the list of notable professors, on the basis that they are not linked to Wikipedia articles in any language. They should be restored to the list if notability and their status as professors is established. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:27, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Paul Eschbach ,
 * Marie Laforge
 * Emile Sabouraud fr:Émile Sabouraud


 * Thank you for creating Robert Poughéon; I have made a couple of edits. You have not cited a source for him teaching at the Académie Julian. Can you locate one? Verbcatcher (talk) 22:08, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, you mention Art Deco in the See Also and the bibliography, but not in the main text. Should he be in Category:Art Deco artists? Verbcatcher (talk) 22:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Red-linked students
Following the discussion in this talk page and in Talk:Académie Julian, I am removing the following names from the list of notable students, on the basis that they are not linked to Wikipedia articles in any language. I have retained Takeshiro Kanokogi as he is sourced to the authoritative Benezit Dictionary of Artists.
 * Flag of Armenia.svg Armenia (Ottoman Empire)


 * Richard Jeranian, hy: Ռիշար Ժերանյան +
 * Flag of Canada.svg Canada


 * Alan Best (sculptor) 1910–2001
 * Franklin Brownell
 * Georges-H. Duquet
 * Henri Fabien
 * Claire Fauteux
 * Arthur Lemay
 * Marguerite Lemieux
 * John Charles Pinhey
 * Flag of France.svg France


 * Claude Autenheimer
 * Albert Bergevin
 * Elisa Bloch 1848–1904
 * Hélène-Renée Cabart-Danneville
 * Pierre Couronne
 * Julie Delance-Feurgard
 * Suzanne Fajard
 * Yvonne Fauny-Huet
 * Inge Folégot
 * Roland Marie Gérardin
 * Marguerite Godin
 * Georges Gounaro
 * Jeannine Hervé
 * Pierre Georges Lallement
 * Albert Larcher
 * Robert Lotiron
 * José Mingret
 * Pierre Aimé Mondan, fr:Pierre Mondan
 * Manuel Moros
 * Philippe Steinmetz
 * Emma Thiollier, fr:Emma Thiollier
 * Émile Thivier
 * Anael Topenot married to del Debbio
 * Flag of Hungary.svg Hungary
 * Flag of Norway.svg Norway
 * Flag of Norway.svg Norway


 * Augusta Harmens
 * Menga Schjelderup-Ebbe
 * Flag of Poland.svg Poland


 * Dimitri d'Osnobichine
 * Flag of Switzerland.svg Switzerland

Switzerland
 * Jean-Joseph Crotti
 * Arnold Geissbuhler
 * Bänninger 1897–1973 Benezit, Bänninger Student of Académie de la Grande Chaumière
 * Flag of the United States.svg United States


 * Louis Armand (painter) Benezit, Armand
 * Saul Bernstein
 * Christy Chakos
 * Griffith Baily Coale
 * Gino Conti
 * Edward Dubuque
 * John Marshall Gamble
 * Henri Oren

They should be restored to the list if notability and there status as students is established. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Non-Latin alphabets
User:DDupard, I think that and  should be listed with their names in the Latin alphabet. Manual of Style/Proper names says that this should be done for placenames, but does not rule on personal names. This does not preclude linking them to their Ukrainian articles. You have recently removed Zofia Stankiewicz for Станкевич Софія. Do you have a Latin version of Лопухіна Маріамна Андріанівна? This may also affect alphabetical sorting, as the family name appears to come first in Станкевич Софія. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:19, 9 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I suggest using which generates  Verbcatcher (talk) 16:28, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Lopuchin Mariamna Andrianivna = Лопухіна Маріамна Андріанівна according to ggtranslate, I'll confirm later, if possible.--DDupard (talk) 16:34, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Mariamna and Andrianivna look like female forenames, so I'd put Verbcatcher (talk) 16:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Found it : It is Mariamna Davydoff (1871 - 1961) as on commons  used  in the gallery on the corresponding ukr page --DDupard (talk) 16:50, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * in French data base : Davydov, Mariamna Adrianovna, --DDupard (talk) 17:04, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Library of Congress : Mariamna Davydoff, --DDupard (talk) 17:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Well done! The Google translation of Лопухіна Маріамна Андріанівна seems to indicate that she married 	Lev Davydov in 1899, and that she was from the Лопухіни (Lopukhin) aristocratic family, so it all fits. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:25, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Books illustration --DDupard (talk) 17:30, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Citing Benezit
User:DDupard, your recent comment   is correct for links of this sort. However, where I notice that this short view does not give the cited information I check the full article on Oxford Art Online, for which I have a Library barcode login. The full article for Gustave Alaux does not mention the Académie Julian. Please do not cite a source unless you have personally verified that it gives the required information. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I cited Benezit for notoriety, since you mentioned your concerns about that at first.--DDupard (talk) 20:42, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * A fair point (except that notoriety is usually for something bad). I will change it to Template:Additional citation needed. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:07, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Depends, how many languages do you "speak" or comprehend?, no lessons please, + actually there is a guideline about this somewhere on WP. --DDupard (talk) 21:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I am a native English speaker, with a limited knowledge of French, Spanish and Italian and a little Welsh. "Notoriety" can be used in a neutral way, similar to "notable", but it is usually similar to "infamous". Verbcatcher (talk) 22:07, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * In this case you may have access to the Witt Library and/or Courtauld Institute of Art (London)--DDupard (talk) 00:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the British Library and the V&A library. However, we shouldn't include original research in Wikipedia. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:37, 12 October 2016 (UTC).
 * I am talking Courtauld: world expert institution on art . What are you talking about ?? --DDupard (talk) 09:12, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The British Library and the National Art Library at the Victoria and Albert Museum are both major resources for research in fine arts, as is the Witt Library at the Courtaud. However, I don't live in London and only occasionally visit. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Alleged excessive and abusing tagging
User:DDupard, you have removed the following tag from Raoul Barré with the check-in comment removed excessive (if not abusive tagging) : webarchives acceptable and used

Firstly, you should not have marked the removal of a tag as a minor edit. This may have been an oversight.

Why did you assume that I was objecting to archived links? The reason text indicated that the problem is that the www.bdquebec.qc.ca site was self-published. I may be wrong in this conclusion, but it is certainly not a mainstream art-historical website and it is not an ideal source. I added this citation myself, and added the tag in the same edit. Adding a marginal source with a health warning is constructive editing.

"Académie Julian not mentioned in Benezit article" means that the first citation does not indicate that Barré was a student at the Académie Julian. I used better source required because one of the sources does not mention the issue, and the second is a poor-quality source.

In your next edit you changed reason=Académie Julian not mentioned in cited source or in the linked article. to reason=Académie Julian not mentioned in cited source, with the comment ''abusive tagging. Bravo!'' I certainly did not intend to be abusive, and I do not see how you concluded this. This was on the Additional citation needed tag for Ernst Barlach. The need for facts to be cited where they appear is reduced if they are cited in a linked article, so the need for an additional citation was partly because there was no relevant citation in the linked article. After I added this tag you added an additional citation, at which point you could have deleted the tag.

I am trying to improve the article by adding citations and tagging where more sources are needed. I am also adding dates and images, and checking that the linked articles are for the right people. In a few cases I have edited the linked articles. If you do not approve of the way I am doing this then please discuss it here. Please discuss the removal of any tags, unless you have made an edit that resolves the problem. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:36, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Please discuss the addition of any tag.--DDupard (talk) 09:06, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * User:DDupard, that is an unreasonable request. I have already outlined my approach to adding tags, and we have discussed a few examples. If you object to my actions in general then please discuss this. Otherwise I intend to continue in the same manner.


 * On reflection, my Please discuss the removal of any tags, unless you have made an edit that resolves the problem. might also be seen as unreasonable. I should have said "please give clear reasons for removing any tag, either here or in the check-in comment".


 * Your recent check-in comment: "better" citation provided for "improvement" : ref from national French archives, 1929 article, 10th word, top of page 82, left column ;) appears to be sarcastic. Was this your intention?


 * It appears that every edit you make is marked as a minor edit. Help:Minor edit describes when this should be used. Have you somehow set your user preferences to automatically check the minor edit box? Verbcatcher (talk) 16:50, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The option to Mark all edits minor by default is not available on English Wikipedia, see m:Help:Preferences. If your "home" Wiki is not English Wikipedia then you may have set it there. Please consider unselecting this option, unless it is helpful for your contributions to other Wikis. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) You asked for citations, I provided some and for the one referenced above, could not activate Zoom-mode, so I was specific. 2) as far as adding references, it is considered a Minor edit by my book, since there is no modification of the page text.--DDupard (talk) 17:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Help:Minor edit says:
 * When not to mark
 * Adding or removing content in an article
 * Adding or removing visible tags or other templates in an article
 * Adding or removing references or external links in an article
 * Adding comments to a talk page or other discussion
 * Verbcatcher (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Page using center with no arguments
see: Category:Pages using center with no arguments


 * Fixed. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:03, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Abraham Neumann
I have added Abraham Neumann as a student per his Wikipedia page, but the only source I can find online is non-notable - a Polish auction house. I have put this source, but help appreciated. Tacyarg (talk) 22:19, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * From Gallery 97, Tel Aviv --DDupard (talk) 03:40, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)
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 * Added tag to http://www.artfinding.com/5989/Biography/Baudier-Paul
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