Talk:List of massacres in Kosovo

Untitled
This article is pointless! It is still the same as war crimes in Kosovo, it is not NPOV, and i urge to remove it, or merge it with War crimes in Kosovo. There are no need to have this article. Tadija (talk) 09:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge?
This article has its own topic, it focuses on "organized and sistematic" mass murders of Kosovo Albanians, commited by the Serbian state, as a part of Joint criminal enterprise of Serbian political and war leaders (according to ICTY judgment). Content of this article significantly differs from War crimes in Kosovo (which includes also NATO, KLA and other Serbian war crimes) and there's no real need to marge it.

It's good to have one general article on War crimes in Kosovo, but we also need more specific articles like Massacres of Albanians and Persecution of Serbs in Kosovo. It is regular on Wikipedia to have extended articles on ethnic massacres like Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and many others.--Mladifilozof (talk) 12:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * What is the point of this article? Should we place here everything that ever happened on Kosovo that you think is appropriate to show you own one sided POV? This is far from anything that can be NPOV! --Tadija (talk) 10:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What is the point of the article on The Holocaust? To remember and not to repeat! That's exactly what is the point of this article. Now, please, tell us what is POV in the article?--Mladifilozof (talk) 12:42, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It was not like that! You cannot compare Holocaust with this?! And if you are so NPOV, where is Massacres of Serbs in the Kosovo War? --Tadija (talk) 12:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If you have enough materials, then such article should be created. --Mladifilozof (talk) 22:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with you Tadija. This "Mladifilozof" and others are just here to contribute to the expantion of hateriot towards Serbia and Serbs. He´s completely not neutral. That´s not ilegal, but so it isn´t our actions. FkpCascais (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

agree, Merge. Subject matter is the same. Mladifilozof seems to think that calling one thing "Massacre" and another thing simple "Persecution" is somehow NPOV. Change this article name to "Persecution" (as well as making in article changes to conform) and I'll change my answer. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 00:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep per Mladifilozof.  kedadi al  23:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe it would be good solution to merge most of the article, leaving only List of massacres in the Kosovo War as it was in the very beginning. --Mladifilozof (talk) 21:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Name Your Arguments
This article uses reliable sources such as: Human Rights Watch reports, ICTY judgments, CNN and BBC news, etc. What is acctualy problem with the neutrality? --Mladifilozof (talk) 12:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

What I see above is jast general discussions, not specific arguments. To recall the rules:

Merging should not be considered if:
 * The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross linked) articles
 * The topics are discrete subjects and deserve their own articles even though they may be short

The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag.

So please, name your specific arguments for merging or disputed neutrality or templates will be removed. --Mladifilozof (talk) 17:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not telling you that your sources are not ok. (Although some of those are not, as you cite Albanian sources that cannot be found in any other international source.) As User:Prodego told you earlier, you cannot write article with only one side and one POV included. If you write it like this, it looks like only Albanian suffered. What about Serbian victims. Monstrous KLA massacres? Numerous guerrilla organizations. One country react on those things, and all of that must be included in article. That's why all of us asks for merge in War crimes in Kosovo War. This is just not right. --Tadija (talk) 11:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Then we should create paragraph named "background" and explain whole context of the conflict. This article is just a part of "War crimes in the Kosovo War" series, focusing on Albanian victims. There is also article that focusing on Serbian victims (1998–present persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo).--Mladifilozof (talk) 11:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for merging

 * I see no reason to have this article or the 1998–present persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo articles as standalone articles at this point. Also, using words like 'persecution' in a title is hardly NPOV compliant. I think this article and the article that presents the Serbian/non-Albanian narrative can be integrated into a single article. Perhaps the title of 'War crimes in Kosovo War' should be changed to something broader so that events that perhaps don't qualify as war crimes can be included e.g. an individual event something like the burning of a medieval church may not necessarily have been designated as a war crime by a court but it's a notable event that deserves to be in the article. The current war crime specific title is a bit narrow in my view.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 03:04, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem here is that we have one editor User:mladifilozof, that insists in making articles, and an enormous ammount of edits in other related articles having in mind only one side POV, this way creating this entire "war-like mentality" inserted in all the articles. I already triyed to explain somewhere that crimes, and its covering-up propaganda are not fighted in the best way, by more crimes and even worste propaganda. All this kind of excessive nationalistically oriented (and very politicized) editors should be limited here somehow. FkpCascais (talk) 03:58, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This article is covered by the sanctions imposed here whose scope was broadened from Macedonia by the following statement "The area of conflict in this case shall therefore be considered to be the entire set of Balkan-related articles, broadly interpreted". (my bolding). If you believe that any editors are repeatedly acting in a way that is inconsistent with these sanctions you can ask questions at Requests for arbitration, and report possible violations at Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. It's probably better just to try to talk the issues through first though.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 04:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, this editor has the particularity of negotiating when there is no other alternative, and when the issues are explained to him in one article, when he jumps to a next one, he just continues as he didn´t learned nothing. As a person quite familiarised with the subjects of the articles edited, I can asure you that his editing is not simply NPOV, but its tremendously radically extreme. If some editor is willing to edit in only one way, and ignore completely the other side, he just doesn´t seem qualified to continue editing the subjects. When confronted, he just responds like here:


 * "...Then we should create paragraph named "background" and explain whole context of the conflict. This article is just a part of "War crimes in the Kosovo War" series, focusing on Albanian victims. There is also article that focusing on Serbian victims (1998–present persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo)...."


 * In other words, he says "...we should...(include a NPOV)" but he never does, and when is donne, he does all in his possibilities to delete it. And also, he just wants to provoke a response in a another nationalisticaly oriented article (that he could claim as NPOV then) ending up the wikipedia, this way, to be a ping-pong table for the nationalists (wich I think is wright the oposite from the WP intentions, and I strongly opose). Thanx very much for the orientations. FkpCascais (talk) 04:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't comment about anyone in particular here because I don't know the details but I edit extensively in the Israel-Palestine conflict area of Wikipedia where there are similar problems and similar sanctions. I also have very strong views that editors must be NPOV in their edits at all times and can't rely on other people to fix the imbalance problems they create. Compliance with the principals described in the arbitration decision is mandatory. Editors must comply with them at all times and if they don't they should not be editing articles.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 04:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree. That is exactly the situation regarding this editor. Many thanx for all. FkpCascais (talk) 04:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Please, stop comment on the contributor and start comment on content. I also agree to merge both articles:

into a single one: --Mladifilozof (talk) 20:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Massacres of Albanians in the Kosovo War and
 * 1998–present persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo
 * War crimes in the Kosovo War.

In addition, the period of 1998 to today overlaps the Kosovo War which was fought between civilians, paramilitary and military forces. Any incidents during that time should be included in War Crimes during Kosovo War article 99.236.221.124 (talk) 06:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course, since it is the Serbs that are victims in that period, somebody here must be very happy by ignoring it. FkpCascais (talk) 07:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

POV tag
It is quite clear that page is disputed! You are not allowed to remove tags without a dispute resolution! That is regarded as vandalism. --Tadija (talk) 15:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You are not allowed to abuse tags. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. --Mladifilozof (talk) 13:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Issues were addressed numerous times already! You never answered them, just expanding article. --Tadija (talk) 13:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * An editor who adds a POV tag to an article needs to explain on the article's talk page the issues behind the tag's insertion, pointing to specific issues or problems. Meowy 17:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Usage of disputed image


We dont know where is this, who is this and and we dont know when this happened. This image is ❌ to article subject. Why i have to explain you to details all edits i do? It is clear as day! --Tadija (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The image represents Yugoslav (Serbian) Army forces in Kosovo, with Serbian flags and Serbian three-finger salute. This image is used to illustrate paragraph named "Serbian military operations". It is closely related to the paragraph topic.--Mladifilozof (talk) 13:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Even if this is Yugoslav Army force, we don't know where is this taken, and when. So using it in this and not any other section is clearly POV. Do you have ANY source that this is Yugoslav army, in Kosovo, or any date? --Tadija (talk) 22:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Further discussion about this subject can be found here, where three users (me included) already agreed that this image should not be used. --Tadija (talk)


 * Now four users. How many users should be enough for you? 4:1, and even wiki is not democracy, still, all sources and arguments told us that this is Russian army, and who knows where. --Tadija (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems substantially unrelated unless there is evidence that this specific caravan was somehow involved in a specific massacre. No further support for the image appears to be expressed so I would suggest removing the RFC unless there are others that have new arguments in support of retaining the image.  Ngaskill (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

This image is not disputed as admin on wiki commons nicely explained to you.--Mladifilozof (talk) 20:31, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Without a reliable source saying that this is an image from Kosovo taken during the Kosovo War it isn't even possible to make a policy based argument for adding it to the article. Editor/admin opinions about the image aren't relevant. Everything in Wikipedia has to comply with WP:V. It's a mandatory requirement.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 04:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


 * What exactly does the image add to the article? If the reader needs to know more about the respective armies, they will likely go to the page reflecting the armies as this image will not explain anything. Image could be from any time or location completely unrelated to the article subject. Imagespam. Spigot  Map  18:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

article reorganized
This article was reorganized. Most of the article was merged with the War crimes in the Kosovo War. Also, the article was renamed from Massacres of Albanians in the Kosovo War to List of massacres in the Kosovo War. Now, this article is only a chronological list (reference is needed only if there is no link to other article).--Mladifilozof (talk) 03:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Mass grave or many individual graves?
Below the picture it is written "mass grave" and on the picture is many individual graves, not mass one.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Unbalanced
I added the template "unbalanced". I just checked two of the about 30 massacres listed here and both do not reproduce a balanced point of view: First one: January 15, 1999 Račak Massacre - "However, the Finnish investigators representing EU found that these killings were committed on civilians": The cited source (BBC, March 17, 1999) cites Ranta correctly: "there were no signs that the victims were anything other than unarmed civilians". At ICTY Ranta said later, that she never said the victims were civilians (http://iwpr.net/report-news/expert-testifies-racak-not-staged). Indeed, Ranta made it difficult to understand her. But in this case we have to follow her literally here. The misunderstanding has been caused in the cited BBC-source itself: The meaning of the sentence "But the report does conclude the victims were unarmed civilians." has correctly been used in our article according to the cited source, but it has not been used correctly according to what the finnish team found in its report of March 17, 1999. Second one: January 29, 1999 Rogovo Massacre - "Serb police-officers executed 24 Albanians, supposedly KLA members": None of the three cited sources (NYT, January 30, 1999; OSCE: Kosovo/Kosova - As Seen, As Told, 1999; BBC, January 29, 1999) mentions an "execution" of 24 Albanians. Only one of them (Kosovo/Kosova - As Seen, As Told) mentions details you can interprete as an execution, just not for 24 individuals, but for 5 or 6, not based on material evidences, but based on witness reports. Both of the incidents might imply crimes, committed by Serbian/Yugoslavian security forces. But: both of them might include such ones committed by Albanian/KLA forces as well. In order to reveal all those crimes, it doesn't help much to cite sources in a wrong meaning. It doesn't help to describe the real crimes of Yugoslavian forces, committed in this context. And it doesn't help to describe any of those committed by the KLA of course. Greetings, --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 11:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Glodjane massacre
Why do you call my edit an “embarrassment” Nado???

According to the Serbian Forensic team on the scene in 1998 (possibly the most pro-serb source out there) the bodies were a mix of Albanian, Serbian and Roma.

Here are the links:

1. http://balkanwitness.glypx.com/Racak-FET-summary2.htm (European Union Forensic team Altogether, 12 victims were identified; among these were seven Serbs, four ethnic Albanians and one Roma)

2. http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,HRW,,SRB,,3ae6a83f4,0.html (Human Rights Watch) Footnote 124

3. http://books.google.com/books?id=LdWZrfsdqAEC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=glodjane+serbian+forensic+team&source=bl&ots=UGxUiykxRN&sig=Xd8vV2TAXF0YQU08QkgTkYLX6i8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IlMRUYeIPJLK9gTfvIH4CA&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=glodjane%20serbian%20forensic%20team&f=false p.3111 (Human Rights Watch)

4.Anthropological Data in Individualization of Skeletal Remains from a Forensic Context in Kosovo—A Case History, Marija P. Djuri ́ ,1 M.D., Ph.D. J Forensic Sci, May 2004, Vol. 49, No. 3 available online at: www.astm.org (Journal of Forensic Science)

“At the beginning of the Kosovo crisis, on September 8, 1998, during the conflict between the Serb security forces and the Kosovo Liberation Army, the police showed a group of journalists several corpses in an advanced state of decomposition; they had been found in a canal supplying water to Radonjicko Lake, in the region between the villages of Glodjane and Jablanica. On 9 September, the official investigation of the crimes near Glodjane began, and the forensic experts from the Medical Faculty in Belgrade performed the autop-sies and the identification of corpses. The team of three forensic pathologists and one anthropologist (also medically trained), working under the authority of the District Court in Pe ́, found that the minimal number of individuals in the mass grave was 39. Twelve of them were positively identified using traditional means, e.g., correspondence of biological data with personal effects and/or documents. Seven of the victims were Serbs, one belonged to a Romany population, and four were Albanians.”

5. www.icty.org/cases/haradinaj|title=public indictment against Haradinaj para 38-39

“38. During the end of August and the beginning of September 1998, Serb forces mounted a counter-offensive and retook temporarily the area surrounding Glodjane/Gllogjan. A Serbian forensic crime scene team conducted an investigation in the vicinity of the canal leading to Lake Radonjic/Radoniq, the Ekonomija Farm in Rznic/Irzniq and the road leading to Dasinovac/Dashinovc. 39. On or about 12 September 1998, the team recovered at least 30 bodies or partial remains in the Radonjic/Radoniq Lake canal area, six bodies at Ekonomija Farm and at least three bodies on the road leading to Dasinovac/Dashinovc. The bodies and remains were forensically examined in temporary mortuary facilities in Dakovica /Gjakova. Several of these remains have been identified as those of Serb, Roma and Albanian civilians who disappeared between April and early September 1998 in the Dukagjin area.”

But I didn't cite those links in my last edit. I simply kept the existing reference and reported what it actually said without putting a nationalist Serb (or nationalist Albanian for that matter) POV on it. I took the time to read the source and report it accurately. Simply because these bodies weren't all Serbian doesn't make the underlying crimes less severe. The language that the source uses is important. It doesn't say “serb” because they weren't all Serbian. I've cited additional authority now.

Its not an “embarrassment” to accurately reflect a source. It is an embarrassment, however, and it does a disservice to the victims of these crimes to warp the ethnicity of those murdered to suit your personal agenda. It is a shame. You call my edits “embarrassing” or a “disguise.”  They are neither. Whats more, I have seen the comments left on your page by another user (which you've since deleted). Its becoming increasingly clear to me what he was talking about. Hyper-nationalist POVs of any sort do a disservice to wikipedia.Epeos (talk) 19:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Ongoing neutrality problems
It's unfortunate that our content on Kosovo still suffers from so much pov-pushing. We have a reliable source which says that, in the Gornje Obrinje Massacre, "Special police forces retaliated by killing twenty-one members of the Delijaj family", including women, adults, the elderly &c. The article text reframed this as "all the men of fighting age". So, I fixed it. Three different editors have reverted at different times - each time changing the text so it contradicts what the source says, and removing the source itself. Zetatrans Evlekis 23 editor. Why do the same editors keep on reverting attempts to bring Kosovo-related articles in line with what sources say? bobrayner (talk) 20:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should ask yourself why it's only you that pushes for the other version. Examine your own revert, it seems to mess up more information than the small piece you aim to change. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 20:25, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

There were four differences between revisions. I have restored three. The last (Prekaz) has a CNN source. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 20:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's interesting that out of the many sources on the Prekaz article, you picked the one which favours "Yugoslav" over "Serb". That's deliberate cherrypicking. I have restored more neutral wording using a few more sources; no doubt it will get reverted again and again... bobrayner (talk) 22:08, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And you didn't cherrypick the one that said "Serb" instead of "Yugoslav"? Please... 23 editor (talk) 22:17, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh now I've heard it all, I am "picking what favours Yugoslav". Well I've got news for you Rayner, on here, we go by reliable sources and it is people like you that hail CNN as beautiful - not me. So if other sources contradict this by listing a separate faction then the way to report it is to explain that it is not clear exactly who did what, CNN says "XYZ" but the Guardian says "ABC", if anyone is "cherrypicking" it is he that replaces the sourced with the unsourced which favours him more. But please, let's stop being stupid here and face the reality - Rayner this will be difficult for you because truth is something you don't like to come to terms with, so I apologise in advance that what I am about to say will hurt you - you see, Serbia was in Yugoslavia during this time and there was only a Yugoslav army and that was all! So if you find a source to claim "Serb police" were involved then by all means add it then rewrite it to include what you have provided, but it is not as if the same source overrules what we have and that we should remove what is there. I mean, it is not as if Serb entities fought independently of central authorities, they represented the state even in other places where it was just paramilitaries. So why don't you stop trying to deny that FRY was a real country and face the facts that there was no "Serbian state" which is what you have been trying to imply on every Kosovo War subject. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 01:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Questionable sources
In the 'Serbian Victims' section, there are 2 particular massacres listed which I have to call into question. The 2 are the Orahovac massacre, and Gnjilane massacre. They use what appears to be a Serbian news site called B92, and given the bias of the site, I have to call into question the reliability of the site as a source. I especially have to do so when site also has disputed information on it. The citation given for the Gnjilane massacre is an article on B92 titled "Ex-KLAs sent to prison for 101 years". The final paragraph of the article says "To conceal their crimes, the killers dismembered the bodies and threw them into nearby dumpsters, and in Lake Livočko.", however this is disputed by this report from the Humanitarian Law Center. The last paragraph on the 64th page of that report states "The court did not give credence to any part of the testimony of cooperating witness ‘Božur 50’ 143, because he only stated facts that were common knowledge and he was not a member of the KLA, something confirmed by VBA, BIA and EULEX reports. The court was not even convinced whether this witness had ever been in the high school dormitory in Gnjilane/Gjilan. On the basis of the evidence presented, it was established that the bodies of the victims had not been postmortem mutilated, incinerated or thrown into the Lake Livočko, as was claimed by this witness. According to an EULEX report on the search of Lake Livočko, no human remains were found in the lake. That the bodies of victims were not mutilated and incinerated after death was corroborated by expert witness testimony."

I will be removing the massacres listed with bad sources unless I or anybody can find more reliable sources for them.

Nick3111997 (talk) 04:54, 7 October 2016 (UTC)Nick3111997

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Scope
The dubious bibliography and the fact that no article exists for pre-Kosovo War events means that they should all be removed. That suggests that the article should be renamed to List of massacres during the Kosovo War or List of attacks on civilians during the Kosovo War in order to include the largest site: the Batajnica mass graves.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Biased
The page seems heavily biased on both sides, for example many early massacres on Serbs in the Ottoman empire are based on Serbian sources, maybe it would be best if you supported these with neutral unbiased sources. QaifarShqiptari (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)