Talk:List of people from Brighton and Hove

Inhabitants or attractions
Nothing against British Sea Power, but a band isn't a "notable inhabitant". If the members are notable, each such person should be noted as an individual. I've not removed the entry (immediately) though since I recognise that this might be controversial. Opinions anyone? – Kieran T  ( talk  13:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * They are notable, and I thought it would be tidier to list them as a collective rather than seperately. SaltyWater 13:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair point about tidyness. I guess there's a difference between what's been done here, with a band then a list of names (which do have articles associated), as opposed to just mentioning a band without the members. I'm only really worried because the main Brighton article has, in the past, been flooded with enormous lists of bands, record companies and DJs... it becomes very long-winded and is often vanity-publishing when it gets down to people adding themselves. – Kieran T  ( talk  16:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Chronology
It's potentially confusing having current residents and past ones. We have quite a mixture of living and dead people, and amongst both groups are people who spent only a short time in Brighton. I realise it's a never-ending task to list celebrity movements, but I wonder if people agree it might be worth at least splitting out the historical names &mdash; perhaps have a 21st Century section and a pre-21st Century section? – Kieran T  ( talk  00:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Would anyone object if i divided the list into those born in brighton (both living and deceased) and those who've lived these (noting those who don't currently)? Amo 17:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure how we'd establish place of birth for them all, and an "unknown" section would be a pity. Living and dead seems as good a way as any.


 * By the way, I've just reverted your insertion of "unofficial" to the Town Crier entry; this was somewhat controversial but was tacitly resolved when the council let her have the tradional Crier's Bell. Eubank (Lord of the Manor) does have the legal authority to appoint her. The City Council happens to employ* another Town Crier so they can be sure to have (him) available. (* I say "employ" but do not use this in the sense of paid-employee; I have no idea if he is paid.) – Kieran T  ( talk  17:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I am shocked and appalled! i don't care about buying titles, but i can't belive you can buy rights. i hope someone sees to changing that. i was under the impression that the council would not give it, she would keep complaining, and keep showing up to stuff, but that the council did not want or have a crier of thier own. My god, the council are nearly as mad as these two. i need to go read up on this. Amo 15:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a tiny thing, but it's a microcosm of the whole "British Constitution" debate. After all, why are most hereditary Peers in their lordly positions? Money, sex, and warfare... – Kieran T  ( talk  15:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley
"Aleister Crowley, author, died in a nursing home in Brighton in December 1947; ashes scattered at Devil's Dyke" Does anyone have a source for this, as far as I am aware Crowley died in a home called 'Netherwood', in Hastings, not Brighton. I believe his cremation may have happened in Brighton. Thanks. - Solar 19:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No idea, I'm afraid. But if you have a source you believe to be reliable which you can cite as a reference in the article, then considering that the existing one is unsourced, I for one would support you in being bold and changing it. If you don't have such a reference it gets more controversial, but there must be some articles on the 'net about his life though. – Kieran T  ( talk  00:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

New Title
As the title is now 'List of People from Brighton and Hove', is it now time to excise all those who spent only a short time in the area, or who were'nt born or grew up there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.248.211 (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I strongly think the answer is "No, not at all." The article guidelines suggest removing "notable" from titles, which has been done, fair enough. But I don't see any discussion about moving from "inhabitants" to "people", which I think was a mistake. The point has been discussed before, and the problem is the ambiguity of "people from". Does it mean "natives" or just inhabitants? Unsatisfactory. It certainly doesn't justify changing the list's content. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 21:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Richard Hoad
Someone's continually adding Richard Hoad to the list but I keep reverting because I don't believe he's notable (see User talk:Tunjiwunji for more details). Unless someone provides evidence of notability then I'll continue reverting.--A bit iffy (talk) 16:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Margaret Pracey
There's a difference of opinion regarding the notability of Margaret Pracey, formerly a town crier for Brighton. I think this one is worth putting up for general discussion to see what other editors think. Another editor has rightly pointed out that not every city official is listed here. However, the notability of this case is precisely that it was not a city appointment, but an unexpected and controversial use of a supposed antique power. I'd like to find a good reference about the situation, but I'm pretty sure it was the local paper which reported at the time that the council were unwillingly compelled to allow both this town crier and their own paid appointment to share the bell! Anyway, there's no point in my digging for references if the entry isn't deemed worthy, so let's see if this generates any opinions in the meantime! ;) Here though is a further story that came up in a quick search, showing that there were further ripples... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Oyez,+city+has+town+crier+for+biennial.-a092144235 – Kieran T  (' talk ') 15:58, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding notability - Please see Notability (people) and Notability (events). The list would become pointless if anyone who has ever been involved in a local controversy were to be listed here, unless the person or event would be worthy of an article themselves. I don't think this fits the bill.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Rearrange into fields?
I think the current alphabetical layout is a bit useless. It doesn't really achieve anything. There are so many people now it's difficult to find people. (Oh, and I think there are at least 100 more people that can be added.) How about if I were to rearrange into fields such as in List of people from Sheffield and List of people from Kent?

I think it's more likely to be a helpful list if for the general reader if people are grouped into musicians, politicians, writers etc. — if you're looking for someone specific but you don't know their name, you're more likely to know their field than where their surname might appear in the alphabet.

I don't want to go ahead with such a major rearrangement in case people object. So if you have any objections (or suggestions), please discuss below.

Thanks, --A bit iffy (talk) 23:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that major changes are needed. Before coming to the talk page and seeing your comment, I was considering the idea of a sortable table combining some elements you describe.  Other value-added info could be included as well, such as wikilinks to images of blue plaques and the like.  Have a look at this sandbox to see a mockup: User:Hassocks5489/Phillips (ignore the misleading name!)  Your point about not knowing somebody's name and wanting to search by field of activity is good: hopefully my mockup addresses that to some extent.  Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.   Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  12:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Ooh yes! I do like tables, and especially sortable tables, for lists. (Also "yes" because I have seen your many featured-quality articles so to be honest did wish you'd be involved in this.) As for thoughts, I think I prefer your Alternative mockup because a dedicated "Commemorations" column would probably be quite sparse, and the intro "Military: " etc. under "Notable for" might confuse the casual reader. A major weak point under the current arrangement is the weakness of references, with most entries being unreferenced. Although I've been including refs. for new entries recently, some are possibly of poor quality (and might even originate with Wikipedia), and I haven't fleshed out the refs. as it takes too long. (If this were to become a featured list though, it would perhaps be the most-referenced featured page in Wikipedia.)--A bit iffy (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, good stuff. I like the "Kent" categories, but think Military is needed as well, so I would propose these as the "Fields": Business, Entertainment, Humanities, Military, Politics, Religion, Science, Sport and Other.  Humanities would cover stuff towards the Arts end like artists and writers as well as the likes of architects and so on.  Science can include engineering and the like.  Do you think that sounds sensible?  A tabular format will be handy for clearly indicating which entries need refs.  It can also encourage pruning of minor or irrelevant entries.  A section on this talk page where stuff removed from the list can be put, alongside an explanation for its removal, might be a good idea.
 * Also regarding refs, I either own or have regular access to lots of high-quality sources which will hopefully mention many of the names already in the list and give suggestions for others; for example, The New Encyclopaedia of Brighton, Musgrave's Life in Brighton and many of Antony Dale's books are absolutely full of mentions of notable people and what they did, when they did it, who they did it with etc. I'll add them as I go along.
 * I'm going to make a start on this tonight, and stick an underconstruction template on it. On the basis that this is an ideal thing to work on for short periods when there isn't time to do intense work on a new article, I'll probably be back and forth every day in my lunch hours etc.  We will need to keep a close eye on page size and loading times, though.   Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  18:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to do a fair amount of virtual legwork, and was intending to continue with populating the current list with entries from categories People from Brighton, People from Hove. Should I continue adding to the current list? Or should I add people to a sandbox somewhere?--A bit iffy (talk) 19:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That's excellent. I'd suggest adding them, and any refs you find, to the "original" list (i.e. the bullet point alphabetical list), and I'll work through from the top making it tabular.  Eventually I will have worked all the way to the bottom of the list and put everything into the table, including new entries.  If you have any entries that would go in the table because of their position in the alphabet, either add them to the table in the appropriate place or put them at the top of the original list and I'll integrate them into the appropriate place.   Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  19:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

←This may be useful for actors and film-related people. Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  20:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Good work everyone, but please could you use the sort or sortname templates for the names. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd like to, but I'm concerned about exceeding the page template limit due to the eventual size of the table. Do you know of any way round this?  I will add them for now from now on (Edit: sorry, just noticed you've done the "A" section: thanks!).   Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  12:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a problem - it only adds about 9 characters per person. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Unreferenced info moved from list, and general things to check
Place unreferenced or dubious content from the list in this section, to encourage further research with the aim of finding sources. If a source is found, reinstate in the article and cross out. Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  20:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Elizabeth Allan: list states "lived in Arundel Terrace, Kemp Town in the 1950s".
 * Chesney Allen: list states "comedian, one of Flanagan and Allen, born in Brighton in 1893". ODNB and Wikipedia article state born in Battersea.
 * Emma Anderson: ref for where she lives now
 * Peter Andre: list states "British-born Australian singer, has lived in Brighton". When?  Internet suggests he is house-hunting in Btn: has he moved yet?
 * Valerie Arkell-Smith: find better ref. http://www.womenofbrighton.co.uk lacks bibliographical or authorship detail.
 * Richard Attenborough: list states "filmed Brighton Rock and Oh! What a Lovely War in the area". Not within scope of this list
 * Attenborough was Chancellor of Sussex University from 1998-2008. Not sure if we'd consider that worthy of inclusion.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:29, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Ewan Bailey: find better ref than imdb.com
 *  Zoë Ball, Alexandra Bastedo : almost certainly will have refs in the Encyclopaedia of Hove and Portslade
 * Biddy Baxter: list states "former editor of Blue Peter"; no connection to B&H given.
 * Beardyman: this Argus ref says Brighton. Uni of Sussex bit comes from his article.  Ref?  Have also seen University of Brighton mentioned.
 * Steve Bell: list states "Guardian cartoonist"; no connection to B&H given.
 * Pete Bennett: list states "Winner of TV Show Big Brother"; no connection to B&H given. Article suggests he lives part-time in Brighton.  Ref?
 * Maeve Berry: list states "Photographer, lives in Hove". Notable??? AfD?  Check Encyclopaedia of Hove and Portslade and tidy up article if anything found Nothing in EH&P
 * Patrick Bergin: list states "actor in films including Sleeping with the Enemy and Patriot Games"; no connection to B&H given.
 * Edna Best: find better ref than imdb.com
 * Robin Bextor: list states "film and TV director, including Norfolk Coast, Windsor Restored, Paul McCartney Today and Yesterday and many music films has had a residence in Lewes Crescent since 2008"; needs ref
 * L. B. Billinton: check railway books for better ref
 * Simon Birch: list states "Hong Kong artist born in Brighton"; needs ref – some websites seen, but look like Wikipedia mirrors or are unreliable
 * Paul Blackburn: list states "bassist for popular rock band Gomez, currently lives in Hove".  Needs ref; independent notability???
 * Arthur Bliss: list states "composer, most famously the score for Things to Come"; no ref or connection to B&H given
 * Tim Booth: list states "lead singer of the band James"; no ref or connection to B&H given
 * Kirk Brandon: list states "musician famous for forming and fronting post-punk bands Theatre of Hate and Spear of Destiny"; article says born in Westminster; he teaches at the BIMM, so a possible candidate for a List of people associated with Brighton and Hove list. Argus says he lived in Lewes as of 2008.

What are we trying to achieve with this list?
I've been spending a little bit time correcting a few things in this list and generally going around it with a broom. But I've been thinking to myself: Why am I doing this? What is this list? It's quite a strange list really. It includes people who were born in Brighton and Hove, but might never have anything do with the place after that. It also includes people who did live a significant part of their life in Brighton and Hove, alongside people who may have had the most fleeting or temporary assocation with the city. It's very hard sometimes to find verifiable sources to whether someone lived or ineed lives in Brighton and Hove. It also demands a lot of maintenance to a take account of people's movements. Aren't we just in danger of duplicating a lot of information? Would it not be better to focus an giving the relevent biographical articles better categories then maintaining this list? The only advantage I can think of is that it provides a sort-of interesting single list that provides some brief context of why the person might be interesting (e.g. author, cricketer etc) which you can't get from categories (which is just a bald list). Hmm. I don't know!

What's the policy on lists? I've just been looking at Featured list criteria for some help. When you look at featured list, you realise what a good list could look like. They are either static-like (e.g. List of UK Singles Chart number ones of the 1980s) or are mostly static with obvious incremental changes (e.g. List of premiers of Nova Scotia). I suppose maybe an interesting sort of list might be "People born in Brighton and Hove". At least that would be easier to verify. Seaweed (talk) 14:09, 2 December 2015 (UTC)


 * It's the same problem with any "List of people from... " or "Category:People from... ", because it's difficult to stop editors adding people based on the flimsiest of connections. But with all lists of people (particularly living people) the entries need to be reliably verifiable. I've been going through some of the people on this list and, if their connection to Brighton isn't verified (sometimes not even mentioned) in their Wikipedia article I've been removing them from the list. Sionk (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable to me. I'll try and help out as well. Seaweed (talk) 12:53, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I started doing the same quite a long time ago (see section above), but then got pulled on to other things/distracted ... it's a time-consuming and difficult task to maintain and reference a list like this. I would support a split into two lists: something like "List of people born in Brighton and Hove" (which would presumably resemble the category but would provide more context) and something like "List of people associated with Brighton and Hove", which would also be quite interesting although perhaps harder to reference.  I would be happy to work on referencing, as I started to do about 18 months ago (was it really that long!?); I have access to quite a wide range of B&H-related books.  Maybe starting a user subpage/sandbox would be the way to go?   Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  14:00, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

George Canning
After researching why George Canning was included on this last, it would appear he stayed in Brighton during ill health in 1827 (the same year that he died). A building in Marine Parade has a grey tablet remarking on his stay, but is brief. Surely this list isn't about listing the place of every notable person once stayed! It's not even though he died in Brighton, which might be notable. I can't find any strong connection between George Canning and Brighton. That's why I removed him from the list. This is another example of where a very tenuous link between a person and Brighton and Hove gives a very exaggerated and not entirely helpful understanding of either the person or the place! Seaweed (talk) 20:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Robin Bextor
I think I've got into a sort-of edit revert situation with an IP user regarding Robin Bextor. I first removed this unreferenced point that "Robin Bextor lives in Brighton" from this page on 30 November 2015. This was reverted by an IP user on 6 December, which in itself was reverted by another user on the same day. On 2 May 2016 a different IP user reverted my original edit thereby reinstating Robin Bextor on this list. I going to remove Robin Bextor from this list again and see what happens. We might end up in WP:3RR territory. I still can't see why Robin Bextor should be on this list as there is no reference for it. If you are the same person reverting this edit, please provide a reference to why this should be included. You may find the Five pillars policy useful. Thanks.Seaweed (talk) 19:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

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