Talk:Lower East Side/Archive 1

Schools and Education
Tribeca and Battery Park mention schools in their neighborhood articles, why not this one? NEST+M, one of the top K-12 school is located there, and less than two blocks away is Bard High School Early College, one of the most sought after non-specialzed school. Maybe even more sought after as over half of next years ninth grade class was accepted to a specialized school, but opted for Bard instead. Schools are important to every neighborhood and should be recognized as such. I would be willing to incorperate it, but I'm relatively new, and do not want to break any of the rules... Ladybug413 23:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Messy and/or irrelevant pieces of information
Two pieces of text I have changed:
 * "Alphabet City around Tompkins Square Park was once known as Little Germany."

I'm not sure why that's relevant here. I've removed it. If it's relevant, please do put it back, but be sure to specify it's relevance to LES in the article! And the second piece:
 * "Chinatown borders the Lower East Side on the south and the west up to roughly Broome Street, NoLIta on the east from Broome Street to East Houston Street, and the East Village on the north."

Frankly, this piece reads like a big mess of street names, neighborhoods and cardinal directions, and I'm not sure which parts of it are relevant for the Lower East Side. I've changed it. RagingR2 01:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

_____

The ethnic demographic information is misleading, and should be clarified. Traditionally, the neighborhood was ghettoized, with different immigrant groups largely located between specific blocks. The article currently overlooks sizeable German (hence the General Slocum monument) and Italian (Venieros, DeRoberti's) populations, and describes a strong Puerto Rican community (Nuyorican Poets Cafe, etc) by the vague term "Latin American." There's a lot of information on the vibrant Jewish culture, which is great. But without specifics on the other ethnic groups, readers don't have a concept of the neighborhood's diversity.

"not really famous for it's subway convenience"?
I removed the following sentence since it does not reflect the facts, is not informative, and unencyclopedic in style: "The Lower East Side, just as the East Village, is not really famous for it's subway convenience so many residents take the bus to the subway."

Obviously no neighborhood is actually "really famous" for "it's (sic) subway convenience", and LES is not particularly noteworthy for being inconvenient either, with five subway stations within its boundaries. The eastern end of the neighborhood isn't well served, but that pretty much goes for the entire East Side and "many residents take the bus to the subway" can describe any neighborhood in New York City. Ytny 02:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sheldon Silver
I have removed this from the Immigrant Neighborhood section as it appears to be a non-sequitur, a random mention of Sheldon Silver in a place where there doesn't need to be a mention of Sheldon Silver, and also not particularly correct:


 * Sheldon Silver, the speaker of the New York State Assembly, may tell people that he lives between Madison and Fifth, but he really means Madison and Fifth Streets, as he resides on the Lower East Side.

Apart from the not-very-relevant location of Mr. Silver's residence on the Lower East Side, Fifth Street and Madison are nowhere near each other, which makes the joke a bit broad. - Corporal Tunnel 14:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Second Avenue Deli??
The Second Avenue Deli was in the East Village, not the Lower East Side. I recommend removing references to aforementioned establishment from this article --216.73.249.246 18:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Second Avenue Deli original location was in the Lower East Side. Are you trying to re-write history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmc212 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Notable Lower East Siders
What is the dispute? -- Irn (talk) 03:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have started a discussion. The problem with the list is that there is no clear guideline for who does and doesn't qualify to be on the list, either for notability or for Lower East Siderdom. Is it for LES natives? Current resident? One-time resident? Does one have to be notable for being a Lower East Sider or simply be a notable person living in/born in/tangentially associated with the neighborhood. It's not really clear at all, looking at the list contents. --Mosmof (talk) 04:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked very closely at the list, but it looks like it's just any notable person (i.e. anyone with a Wikipedia article) who has lived in the Lower East Side at some point. Does that sound accurate to you? Do you think that needs to be changed or just made more clear in the article?--Irn (talk) 21:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the list should even be there, since it's rather indiscriminate, but at the very least, it should have a clear, stated criteria. Another problem is that I suspect many of the entries fall under the modern day East Village. But yeah, the main thing is that there's no standard for inclusion. We're not talking about a small town where a celebrity would put the place on the map - given the population density and the importance of the neighborhood, the list should be people who are notable for being Lower East Siders, rather than notable people who happen to live in LES. --Mosmof (talk) 06:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds fine to me (honestly, I'm not terribly invested in this discussion, but no one else is responding), and it doesn't appear as though any other editors particularly care, either. However, the standard of "notable for being a Lower East Sider" seems rather nebulous and subjective. Any ideas on how to define that?--Irn (talk) 19:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I have no idea if a standard for being a notable Lower East Sider exists. And I guess I'd prefer to just get rid of the list than to indiscriminately list anyone who has ever spent time in the neighborhood. Again, listing notable members of a community is fine for small towns or schools, but not so much for a NYC neighborhood. If no one raises any objections in the next few days, I think I'll just be WP:BOLD (which is such a not-so-bold thing to say). --Mosmof (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Which Country?
I would have thought the opening statement should mention which COUNTRY this area is in! To the uninitiated reader, "Lower East Side" could refer to part of any city in any country. The opening sentence should be something like:

"Lower East Side" refers to an area of the city of Manhattan, in the USA." 121.44.23.135 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not necessary since it says "The Lower East Side is a neighborhood in the southeastern part of the New York City borough of Manhattan." It's hardly confusing with other New York Cities or Manhattans as "any city in any country."  Where are the other New York Cities and Manhattans?  -- David  Shankbone  05:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Jewish lower east side??????

 * What about Black Lower East Side
 * What about Chinese Lower East Side
 * What about Puerto Rican Lower East Side
 * What about American Lower East Side
 * ?????????????????????????????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.86.225 (talk) 02:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously, the neighborhood has historically had strong association with the American Jewish community, so I don't share your objections. But the section did strike me as a laundry list of businesses (and a wee bit spammy), and the point about the Jewish diaspora could, and already was, better made through prose, so I took the section out. So thank you for bring it up? --Mosmof (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Timothy White Comment
The comment "It is also home to Timothy White of Essex St." as the last sentence of the "Nightlife and Entertainment" section seems very out-of-place to me. It seems to me that the comment should either be re-located or removed entirely. I'm not even clear on what the relevance is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.127.200.152 (talk) 03:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

MOVIES
"Hester Street, starring Carol Kane, The 1975 screen adaptation of Abraham Cahan's "Yekl," certainly belongs on the list. It is a good conversion of the novella and a realistic portrayal of Jewish immigrant life on the Lower East Side in the 1980'sCloughoula (talk) 22:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Information
The Village Voice has the article http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-01-12/news/in-a-crime-free-city-how-does-a-young-gangbanger-represent/ "In a Crime-Free City, How Does a Young Gangbanger Represent?" (Graham Rayman, Tuesday, January 12th 2010) - It has info about the Lower East Side. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

History
Am I the only one thinking that this otherwise nice article is lacking a dedicated History section? --Gamgee (talk) 09:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it has one now. But it lacks anything from the 1850s through the 1950s -- weird. 2601:645:4100:BED2:982:FFC8:AE:1609 (talk) 07:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. It's too late where I am to deal with this now, but I will try to get to it tomorrow or the next day. BMK (talk) 07:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

"Lower East Side" versus "LES"
The term "Lower East Side" is used in this article 47 times, while the term "LES" is used only twice. Apart from the lead, the abbreviation "LES" is used again only once, in the "Artistic and political neighborhood" section—where it is quickly followed by a mention of the neighborhood in its full name. Therefore, I have replaced the mention of "LES" in the "Artistic and political neighborhood" section with the full abbreviation for the sake of consistency. epicgenius (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It is hardly uncommon, once an abbreviation is defined (as it is in the very first sentence of this article), to mix up the full name and the abbreviation, since constantly using the full name (any full name} can become monotonous. Hence the occasional use of the abbreviation (or "it") to break things up a bit, and not put the reader to sleep. BMK (talk) 00:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * However, in professional writing, the abbreviation is usually used most of the time throughout the text if it is provided. By using "LES" just once, it may seem weird to the reader that we are re-introducing an abbreviation halfway through the article. epicgenius (talk) 00:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Plus, we also use synonyms like "area" and "neighborhood" in the article. epicgenius (talk) 00:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your statement regarding professional writing is not accurate. BMK (talk) 00:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really. epicgenius (talk) 01:26, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The sources consistently support the use of "Lower East Side". There are other synonyms to use in place of Lower East Side, but the initialism "LES" is rarely used to refer to the neighborhood. BMK, do you have any evidence that this is a common term, otherwise I agree with Epicgenius. Alansohn (talk) 10:13, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course you do. As Churchill said (paraphrase): "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least say a good word about the Devil in the House of Commons." BMK (talk) 14:52, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * , Wow! You ask an editor for sources to support his claim and he's off to Godwin's Law in one giant leap. Reductio ad Hitlerum at its worst from one of Wikipedia's most distinctively abusive editors. While you're working way down there to find the sources to support your claim, say hello to your buddy Mr. H. Alansohn (talk) 20:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Alansohn: wow, indeed, not for my comment, but for your apparent inability to understand a rhetorical analogy. Were I you, I'd examine the situation between myself and yourself, and determine who in the analogy is Churchill, and who is Hitler, for the purposes of the rhetorical device.  If you object to being compared to one of the greatest orators, politicians and statesmen of the mid-20th century (and I ain't talkin' 'bout old Shickelgruber), I can't help you.  But, of course, you're only taking "offense" for the sake of taking offense, because it's me, just as you always do.  It's a stance that's getting pretty shop-worn from over-exposure, but it's OK, I'm used to it from you. In any event, your opinion of me concerns me not one whit, and I'm sure the reverse is true as well. BMK (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC) Withdrawn, with apologies, as inappropriate. BMK (talk) 05:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
 * BMK, all I asked for were sources to support the claim that "LES" is used in the sense described. I was neither giving nor taking offense. Perhaps if you simply treated in good faith both my opinion on this issue and my question to you about your position, you wouldn't have anything personal to say, let alone retract. Alansohn (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ,, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , BMK (talk) 23:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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