Talk:Ludwig von Mises/Archive 1

Spacing in "Contributions to the field of economics"
Anyone know why there are several lines of spacing in this section? Looks very unprofessional. Is it passive vandalism or something else?Ikilled007 18:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Dolfuss Coup
I know my comments will be immediately deleted by the Libertarians, but... Strange how no one mentions that Von Mises' role as chief economic advisor to Dolfuss directly led to the collapse of the Austrian economy and the coup that unseated Dolfuss. Also, no one mentions that Von Mises fled Vienna just ahead of an angry mob that wanted to lynch him the same way they had their Chancellor. Instead, there is this bogus obfuscation about "fleeing Nazi terror" -- when, really, he was fleeing the workers and peasants whose livelihoods his failed economic policies had destroyed. (unsigned comment by User:68.10.35.153)


 * Mises was indeed an advisor to Dollfuss, as the article on Engelbert Dollfuss notes. If you want to make the claim that Mises was fleeing "workers and peasants" you'll need a source. This English translation of a Le Monde article seems to indicate that Mises' likely motivation for moving to Switzerland and then the US was that his theoretical works offered arguments against all socialist planning and that he was a Jew.


 * It is true that Mises had made himself known in academic circles in 1920, through an article that demonstrated the impossibility of a socialist economy’s avoiding total bankruptcy. Thus one might now say that Mises was the very first one to foresee the fall of the Berlin Wall. The reasoning is simple: all planning involves economic calculations, which can be based only on real prices. But real prices can proceed only from voluntary exchanges. Such exchanges require that those doing the exchanging are the owners of what they exchange. In a socialist economy, however, production goods are collectivised. Thus no real price can arise from exchanging them, and consequently no economic calculation is possible, and errors of investment are inevitable. The article of 1920 had sparked an enormous debate, because many economists, even non-socialist ones, believed that economic calculation in a collectivist economy was possible.


 * Mises’ demonstration certainly could not have been pleasing to the Nazis, who had aspirations to economic planning. What made his case still worse in their eyes was that they sensed, with remarkable acuity, that he was the most authentic heir of the “Austrian School,” founded in the previous century by Karl [spelling sic] Menger and continued by Eugen Böhm-Bawerk. This current of thought had given a scientific foundation to the subjective theory of value. “Value lies in us, not in things,” summarises Mises. The task of the economist, accordingly, is to explain what man does, not what man should do. He seeks to explain the price of tobacco, alcohol, or marijuana, not their merits or demerits. Nothing to do with the “labour theory of value” coming from the English School (Adam Smith, Ricardo) and taken up again by Marx. Likewise nothing to do with the positivist economics professed in Germany, which trapped itself in the dead end of historicism, piling up mountains of mutually irreducible “historical facts.”


 * In fact, the Nazis on that 15 March 1938 had put their hand on a veritable treasure of economic thought, but they could do nothing with it but what they did: transport it somewhere in Germany in a sealed coach.


 * As an aggravating circumstance, Mises was Jewish, and the fact that his grandfather had been raised to the nobility by Emperor Franz-Josef in 1881, the very day of Ludwig’s birth, evidently changed nothing in the eyes of the Nazis (the Mises Institute’s crest is none other than the Mises family’s coat-of-arms after its ennoblement).


 * At the moment when the Hitlerites are ransacking his Viennese apartment, Mises and his wife are already in Geneva, trying to begin a new life. But the defeat of France in May-June 1940 convinces them that the whole of Europe is likely to fall under the Nazi assault. And they attempt, along with other Jews including the economist Charles Kindleberger, to reach Spain by bus in order to get from there to America. The bus is stopped in France, in the non-occupied zone. Mises telephones Professor Louis Rougier, whom he has come to know through having met him at scientific congresses before the war. Rougier plays a mysterious role in Vichy, charged with a “secret mission” to Churchill in London, a mission which will come to nothing. In any case, shortly after the telephone call all the Jews on the bus that had been stopped receive visas for America via Spain and Portugal.
 * DickClarkMises 03:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Additionally, I would refer interested parties to "The Cultural Background of Ludwig von Mises" at Mises.org. DickClarkMises 05:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I really think that the Dollfuss affiliation should be modified as being rather misleading. This research article of kuehnelt-Leddihn mentioned above, precisely stresses the highly coincidental background of that collaboration. That Mises was disliked for his deflation policies, during that time, and therefore allegedly forced to flee (source?) may of course be interesting as Mises never changed his views on the benefits of deflation, but certainly deflation has no philosophical affiliation to any kind of Fascism, not even Austrofascism, as it is supposed to be a natural process of the market. --86.211.173.152 (talk) 14:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Academia's reaction upon Mises' arrival in the U.S.
Just a note, he was labelled a "right-ring reactionary":

"At a time when every communist and social democratic exile from Europe was given a high academic post in the United States, Mises was refused a job. But with the help of Henry Hazlitt and Lawrence Fertig, Mises secured a visiting professorship at New York University's Graduate School of Business. His salary was paid by business people and foundations, and he was never to be a regular member of the faculty. The dean, John Sawhill, even lobbied good students not to take Mises's "right-wing, reactionary" classes. In later years, Sawhill helped mangle the market as head energy bureaucrat in Washington, D.C."WHEELER 16:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Copyvio
What's the dealio on Ludwig von Mises? I spoke directly with Jeff Tucker, the Vice-President of the LvMI and he gave me permission to use that text. It was written for ANB (who the LvMI gave permission to use it) by a fellow (Hullsmann) who up until this month was a resident senior fellow there (he has now gone on to a University in France). Anyways, I stated that in the edit log and at the bottom. Although I appreciate the concern, please contact me next time.

--Tejano 13:48, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Since you posted it anonymously, I had no idea who to contact. If you are User:Tejano you should log in to that account. Anyway, the article says this: "Copyright © 2003 American Council of Learned Societies. Published by Oxford University Press. All rights reserved." Is that wrong? Does Mr. Tucker have the authority to license this under the GFDL? He's not the original author and he doesn't appear to represent the copyright holder. Also, let's move this to Talk:Ludwig von Mises. I'm copying these comments there. Rhobite 22:02, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Is there some way we can have an actual article up here while the copyvio process works? This is kind of an eyesore, and its covering up the pre-copyvio information that some people might want to get at. - Nat Krause 07:03, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hulsmann version
If you have any questions regarding the version I recently edited into place, contact Guido Hulsmann at: jgh@guidohulsmann.com (he is the original author who wrote it while employed at the Mises Institute of whom, the Vice-President - Jeff Tucker - gave permission to have it placed here).Tejano 23:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Poor Ludwig
Considering the fact that communists and socialists have been persecuted and murdered for their beliefs for over 200 years, I have an extremely difficult time feeling sorry for Dr Mises. Perhaps he should have considered taking a job at the University of Idaho so his feelings would not get hurt at NYU.


 * A difficult feat, since communism didn't exist until the mid-19th century. If you have a suggestion on how to improve this article, please make it. Rhobite 19:45, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I think you should also reconsider the myth of Von Mises. Frederic Bastiat has had far more influence on "Austrian" economics.--12.227.237.140 (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a hard time feeling sorry for those socialists when they were the ones advocating violence and coercion from the state to keep themselves in power. Agrofelipe (talk) 08:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * When the Nazis entered Austria, they attempted to arrest Mises. Mises fled to Switzerland, leaving many of this personal papers behind (these papers would reappear decades later). If the Nazis had caught hi, he would have died in a camp. This remark about NYU proves only the ignorance of its author. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.29.140.167 (talk) 14:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Category:Austrian nobility
What was von Mises place in the Austrian nobility? Are we adding him simply because he has "von" in his name? I don't see any mention of nobility in his linked biographies. -Willmcw 22:51, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)


 * Do to the lack of a source this assertion, I'm removing the category. -Willmcw 02:08, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, because he has a "von" in his name, he was nobility. People in Austria who had a "von" in their name were probably 99.9% nobility. Note, in northern Germany that was not necessarily the case. His full name was Ludwig Edler von Mises, Edler being a noble title similar to the english "esquire". You can check this website out as well. I am putting him back into the category, cheers. antares911 21:41, June 6, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I searched on Edler and apparently it is the lowest rung of German nobility. Unless anyone is claiming that Mises misppropriated the designation it seems fair. Thanks, -Willmcw

Edler was a title that was more or less unique to Austria only (not Germany, *ahem*). (with the exception of Bavaria maybe, not 100% sure). Even without a noble title like Edler, Fürst, Graf,..etc. there was also the untitled nobility, which had a simple "von" in their name. you´re welcome :-) Antares911 22:36, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * That may be true in Austria. One of the other sources I found said that in Northern Germany, IIRC,:some folks who are not noble use "Von" in their name. The noble there use the small "v" "von" or the abbreviation "v." to distinguish themselves. Anyway, it looks like there's sufficient evidence for von Mises. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:43, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

The "von" in a name in Northern Germany can be quite similar to the "van" in Dutch names. More confusingly there is some nobility, that did not have a "von" in their name, but where noble nevertheless. such cases are rare though (not so in France, where many of the high nobility did not have a "de" in their name, and some who had a "de" were not noble). It literally translates as being "from" a certain place. The "v." that is sometimes used by some nobility (in letters, name-cards, but not officially) is more fashionable in Northern Germany (Old Prussia for example), however in places such as Bavaria or Austria, it was snuffed upon as being unsophisticated. therefore an abbreviated "v." was not common in the south. Antares911 21:16, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Mises was Jewish, and the fact that his grandfather had been raised to the nobility by Emperor Franz-Josef in 1881, the very day of Ludwig’s birth, evidently changed nothing in the eyes of the Nazis (the Mises Institute’s crest is none other than the Mises family’s coat-of-arms after its ennoblement)." This came from Roderick Long's website. Dr. Long is a senior faculty member of the Mises Institute. DickClarkMises 03:45, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * That's a great anecdote. I would imagine that it was rare honor, and that his grandfather must have been notable in his time. Could you add something to the article, either a sentence or paragraph, in your own words about Mises's family? Or even an article about the first "Herr von Mises" if enough information is available. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

"Human Action" links in e-books
I'm wondering if it is necessary to refer to both the "standard" and scholars edition of the book "Human Action". For someone knowledgeable about the content, would the scholars edition be sufficient? Thanks for the thought.
 * P.S. of course, the scholars edition being a whopping 54 Mb of PDF download might be reason enough.

Courtland 03:00, July 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * There is indeed a reason to include both. "Human Action" has gone through 3 revisions. The Scholar's Edition, which is published by the Mises Institute, is a reproduction of the first edition, with an introduction by a number of important present-day Austrians including Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Guido Hulsmann, et al. The Scholar's Edition also includes an original index that has never been published with any other version of "Human Action." There are also textual differences between the different versions, although I have not read any other than the Scholar's Edition, so I cannot personally testify to the accuracy of that. The editorial vice-president of the Mises Institute was my source though, so I feel it to be reliable information. DickClarkMises 22:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

content dispute on coercive monopoly
There appears to be a content dispute on the coercive monopoly article. If this subject is of interest to you, please reply to the straw poll at Talk:Coercive_monopoly. -- BBlackmoor (talk) 16:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Praxoelogy useless?
From the article:

"Praxeology has been criticized by most economists as useless, amongst them Friedrich August von Hayek."

This line feels wrong to me. A quick google search for turns up nothing to suggest such universal condemnation.

Page move
Someone moved this article from Ludwig von Mises to Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises. I reverted this move, due to Naming conventions (common names). Since he is most often referred to as Ludwig von Mises, that's what this article should be called. Rhobite 01:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. The vast, vast majority of folks aren't aware of his full name (the Margit von Mises-endorsed LvMI has a Mises portrait which is labeled with a placard that states his name as "Ludwig Edler von Mises."). Dick Clark 06:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The article on the preposition "von" claims that:
 *  In Austria, in contrast, not only were the privileges of the nobility abolished, their titles and prepositions were abolished as well. Thus, for example, Friedrich von Hayek became Friedrich Hayek in 1919 when Austria abolished all indicators of nobility in family names. On this issue, also see Austrian nobility.
 * This is covered in greater detail at Austrian nobility. As it appears that our Ludwig von Mises was a resident of Austria in 1919, and subject to its laws, wouldn't this law, if correctly depicted, have applied to his family as well? What the state gives the state may take away. Do we have access to his books or articles published in Austria after 1919? Presumably the author would have been listed as "Ludwig Mises", or "Ludwig Heinrich Mises." -Will Beback 19:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If this is the case then I don't suggest that we change the title of the article, but we might say that he resumed use of the "von" when he left Austria, or whatever. -Will Beback 19:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio redux
You know something? This article is just plain copyright violation. It was taken from http://www.mises.org/misestributes/misesjgh.asp ... note that that page is "Copyright © 2003 American Council of Learned Societies. Published by Oxford University Press. All rights reserved," not copyright of the Mises Institute. I e-mailed Hülsmann, and he told me that he has no rights to it. This thing belongs to American National Biography which is subscription-only website. I can't see how this could possibly be GFDL. That being the case, I'm going to list this as a copyright problem. To avoid blanking the article, in the meantime, what I'm going to do is this: this article and its history are goign to move back to Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises. I will put up the pre-copyvio version of this article back at Ludwig von Mises. Once everything is sorted out, we can reunite this page with its edit history. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 23:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Weird. Thanks for catching that. Sounds like a good recovery plan. -Will Beback 00:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Page history merge and copyvio removal
I have merged the revision histories of Ludwig von Mises and Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises, leaving out all revisions which contained the copyright violation (and those which were superfluous, like edits reverting to the pre-copyvio version). These deleted edits are now located at the title "Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises". This removal of copyvio material explains the significant gaps visible in this article's edit history. Despite this, this article's revision history should flow smoothly if people reverted to pre-copyvio versions properly. This page history merge has been brought to you by Mark 17:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The proper pronunciation of "Mises" might be useful in the first line, even if it's not IPA. Srnec 17:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Smth like [ludvιk fɔn mi:zes] I believe.Constanz - Talk 10:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Re-work e-books header
The main page's heading of "Online e-books" inhibits contributors from adding wiki links to pages on specific books by Mises. I'm suggesting we make an adjustment encouraging the wiki links followed by "Full text" external links and ISBN numbers, similar to what we see on the Murray Rothbard entry. -- RayBirks 15:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a good idea. Otherwise it's chaotic. Jouvenel 04:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Mises a Catholic?
An anonymous editor added Category:Catholic to this article. While many of the notable figures from the Mises Institute are Catholics, Mises himself was an Austrian Jew who was personally agnostic. As Laurence Vance notes here,
 * Although one of his grandfathers had been a rabbi, Mises was not a synagogue attendee. He was an agnostic, believing that no one could know about God.

DickClarkMises 20:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC) He suffered and emigrated because of his Jewish origin.His both parents were ethnic Jews. Then he is also a representative of the people of Jewish origin, like Einstein , von Neumann, Spinoza , Karl Marx etc .He also was American - lived a good part of his life in the USA and had American nationality. He was born in Galiczia, in Ukraina, under the Austrian monarchy domination and was of Austrian (German - speaking culture) and as it was emphasized a "representative of the Austrian school of economy" - that could be a better definition than Austrian economist - because Austrian refers first and all  to his country of origin - then the Austrian-Hungarian  empire - Galitzia having been then  a part of the Austrian empire. It's true that those facts are mentioned in the body of the text they could be mentioned also in the definition - it's also true that this can sound rather heavily - Austrian - American of Jewish origin ,born in Galitzia ( Ukraina ),representative of the Austrian school of economy. This was my intention. Sorry.Cpt.schoener (talk) 19:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Can someone please add an IPA pronunciation to this article? Thanks, --Selket Talk 22:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Never mind, someone put it further up, but didn't add it to the article. --Selket Talk 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Misessuit.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Under "Contributions to the field of economics"
I'm wondering if this passage is a quote of Mises or just POV on the part of the author?

"The only certain fact about Russian affairs under the Soviet regime with regard to which all people agree is: that the standard of living of the Russian masses is much lower than that of the masses in the country which is universally considered as the paragon of capitalism, the United States of America. If we were to regard the Soviet regime as an experiment, we would have to say that the experiment has clearly demonstrated the superiority of capitalism and the inferiority of socialism."

??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.211.20 (talk) 13:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, nevermind. It was right in the reference. :( 75.45.211.20 (talk)

Coat of arms?
What in the world does his great-grandfather's coat of arms have to do with anything? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.62.47 (talk) 00:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It is the Mises family coat of arms. His great-grandfather was the family member who was ennobled by Franz Josef. DickClarkMises (talk) 06:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed for opening of 'Contributions to the field of economics'
"Mises wrote and lectured extensively on behalf of classical liberalism"

"[Mises] is seen as one of the leaders of the Austrian School of economics"

The first statement is fact. The second statement is misleading; he was not a leader of the school in the sense of a founder or president. He was a leader in the ideology.

In his biography from the Mises Institute of Economics Biography he is cited as "economic advisor to the Austrian Chamber of Commerce". I am not sure what the right language should be, but it needs to be something more definitive rather than an opinion, even if it is one most [if not all knowledgable on the subject] would agree with.

http://mises.org/etexts/austrian.asp outlines quite specifically his accomplishments and contributions to the school. I think something from there could be used to clear this up, or shorten it to just "Mises wrote and lectured extensively on behalf of classical liberalism", which is clear, factual, and arguably general knowledge.

199.80.142.70 (talk) 20:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Found this at http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/AustrianSchoolofEconomics.html:

"Many of the ideas of the leading mid-twentieth-century Austrian economists, such as ludwig von mises"

Simon Marchese (talk) 19:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Criticism
Here is the full sentence of the critique quoted in his summary, so there seems to be at least something nice to be said of him:

In a 1957 review of his book, The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality, The Economist said of von Mises: "Profesor von Mises has a splendid analytical mind and an admirable passion for liberty ; but as a student of human nature he is worse than null and as a debater he is of Hyde Park standard."

Note however, that it is more of a book review, than actual critique of his life and work. Aren't there any better resources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pestergaines (talk • contribs) 11:37, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Added a critique by one of his most important students and extended the preceding criticism as noted above... let's see if this is acceptable. Pestergaines (talk) 20:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Fascism criticism
This edit isn't referenced, and varies from a bit WP:OR (referring to Mises' writing directly rather than to someone writing about Mises) to extremely WP:OR ("anti-democratic sympathies among Austrian School economists"). I'm going to revert, but maybe some of it can be sourced. C RETOG 8(t/c) 19:33, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

This edit is better, because it says less, but it's still not attributed. Find a source which criticizes Mises for sympathy with fascism, and makes the connections written. C RETOG 8(t/c) 18:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Fascism Criticism: Necessary...but noble?
"But it is unarguable that he considered fascism's militant stand against communism to be noble and necessary."

I removed "noble and" from this sentence in the criticism section because I don't think anything in his writings supports the claim that he thought it was noble. Anyone who wants to re-insert it should provide clear, unambiguous textual support first. Geoffrey Allan Plauche (talk) 22:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Several efforts have been made to remove the 'Fascism criticism' section. To those that have made the removal: how do you believe the article can best reflect this aspect of Mises' political beliefs? - JeffJonez (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that if it is going to be presented as criticism, the criticism needs to come from somewhere, and that somewhere can't be a Wikipedia editor. For something like this, it may be less important what Mises said, and more important what others said about what he said. C RETOG 8(t/c) 20:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I seem to be in a slo-mo edit war over this stuff, with no discussion here. I'm going to be fervent about removing a bit of the criticism which is a WP:BLP violation, but slow down my edit warring further, which appears to mean the material will be in the article more often than not. C RETOG 8(t/c) 00:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps an RfC to settle this dispute would be good? In the mean time, we should leave it out. My preference is to include it when/if an independent source is found that has made this same criticism about Mises support for Facism. We can't just pull a quote from someone's (extensive) writings and use it to attack them. That's too much like synthesis. I imagine that if I did the same thing on the Obama page, I'ld be smacked down pretty quick. LK (talk) 06:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Possibly an RfC. Semi-protecting the page would probably work, too, since it's been IP editors recently restoring the bit. I'm not in a fighting mood, at the moment. C RETOG 8(t/c) 15:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The IP is still reintroducing the disputed text in a slow edit-war. Perhaps its time to ask for semi-protection. Mises is no longer living, and so BLP does not technically apply, but we shouldn't let criticisms of people stand if they are not properly sourced. LK (talk) 08:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The BLP trouble is referring to another, living economist in the same section. C RETOG 8(t/c) 09:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I've been making the additions, and I was not aware of the protocol for discussing these edits in this forum. I do think it's an appropriate criticism, but I'm happy to make some changes to it.  Economic topics on this site are disproportionately dominated by Austrian School perspectives, often linking back to von Mises.  This isn't surprising, given the considerable internet presence of the Austrian School, but it makes your economic pages come across as extremely unprofessional, and a poor reflection of the actual dialogue that exists on these subjects.  You seem to have shown no comparable concerns about the specious claims of sympathy with totalitarianism on the John Maynard Keynes page.  These criticisms have remained on the Keynes page, but are regularly removed from the Mises page.  On the Keynes page, in the criticism section, rather than deleting these references you've allowed sympathizers to debunk the accusations.  Perhaps something like that could be done on the Mises page.  In the next couple days I'd be willing to track down and cite people who have expressed concern over Mises's fascist sympathies (I wasn't the first one to identify those sympathies, obviously).  That would address one of the points made earlier in this discussion.  A lot of people use Wikipedia for information on topics of current interest - one of those topics is Keynesian economics, and active fiscal policy.  As long as you allow Austrians to dominate the discussion on Wikipedia where they have failed to dominate the discussion in professional economics fora, I think it's incumbent upon you to allow criticisms of the Austrian school to stand.  Ideally, the economics pages would simply better reflect the discussion in the economics profession and minimize discussion of highly ideological contributors like the Austrian School.  However, I understand that would defeat the purpose of Wikipedia's mission.  As an alternative, I think you should let all cited criticisms stand, and if others want to defend von Mises you can let them do that in the same way that Keynesians have defended Keynes (RATHER than simply deleting any criticism) on the John Maynard Keynes page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.57.193 (talk) 14:29, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear 68.34.57.193, please try to understand that it is Wikipedia policy that any potentially contentious statements must be cited. See WP:SOURCES. For a statement that 'Mises has been critised for saying xxxx', we must link to a reliable source that has said the same thing. It is not enough to link to a source that shows that Mises said xxxx. Also Cretog and I are well aware of the over preponderance of material from 'internet Austrians', we often struggle with such. However, we must follow Wikipedia policy, or else we will descend into chaos. I have a little essay on this issue on my user page. This can all be solved if you can point to someone, somewhere, who has made this same criticism of Mises. Perhaps you can do some google searching? I've done a cursory search, and have found nothing. LK (talk) 15:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems that I can't edit the section. Here are two examples of people criticizing Mises for his support of fascism: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/11/jeer-heer-has-a-ludwig-von-mises-quote.html, and http://sanseverything.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/mises-and-the-merit-of-fascism/.  The first example is especially important - Brad DeLong is a well regarded macroeconomist.  Under the statement that other Austrians have also inherited this disposition, this can be cited: http://books.google.com/books?id=ECGIYNWdaX0C&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=schmitt+hayek&source=bl&ots=kyRmCvstRY&sig=xJ4QcZhjJFOoJaRMzf0qF6g803M&hl=en&ei=w-LiSpfXGIXe8QaLsPjnAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=schmitt%20hayek&f=false, connecting Hayek with Carl Schmitt's authoritarian political philosophy.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.57.193 (talk) 13:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well that satisfies me, especially the article "Mises and the “Merit” of Fascism" appears to be a criticism along the same lines. Cretog? LK (talk) 10:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)