Talk:Lyon/Archive 1

Untitled
A mediaeval Pope's admiration of the red vestments of the canons of Lyon is said to have given rise to red becoming the signature color of the cardinals. I didn't pull this statement, but does anyone think this is how things really work? Wetman 06:29, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Pictures
Can the article's pictures lose the watermarked text? It looks quite tacky and unprofessional. Move the info into the EXIF tags, that's why they are there. Josh3736 04:01, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I added lots of beautiful pictures of the city. ;) 10:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.226.217.154 (talk)

Move to Lyons
I disagree: see "Lyons" discussion below, here. --Kessler 00:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I add my disagreement, although I don't think it's necessary for me to add to the conversation below. 64.19.134.3 02:47, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I think "Lyons" is more than occasional. Of the 600000+ links which turn up, a nice example is from the French Government --Henrygb 13:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Cultural bias, creeping in here: the reason why English-speaker spellings predominate on the Internet is that most of the current users of the Internet are English-speakers, still... That's why those Google "popularity"-ranked data retrievals, one of which you used here, are not as "objective" as they are considered by so many to be: if the folks you ask about haircuts are primarily barbers, they're going to tell you that you need the haircut...


 * Household penetration rates of things like the Internet and computers still are lousy, in France and in French-speaking places -- where they will insist that the city name be spelled "Lyon" & not "Lyons" -- at least by comparison to the US, UK, Scandinavia, and other digitally-deluged places. Someday, maybe soon, France will be represented equally online per cap -- the Internet will become democratic -- and then we'll all have "Lyon", and lots of accents aigues -- but not yet. And just wait 'til the Chinese and the Indians get there: lots of spelling and punctuation changes to be made, then -- just ask ICANN, they're already wrestling with this -- don't call it "Bombay", or "Madras" -- the disambiguation task will take on a whole new dimension.


 * Easy answer for the "French Government" example you cite: http://www.france.diplomatie.fr/label_france/ENGLISH/DOSSIER/G7/g7.2.html -- those are French diplomats, trying to be diplomatic, plus showing off their Eton or at least Cambridge or at least Cambridge ESL School educations -- and it's their "English" page... -- but back 'ome you can bet they spell it the way grandpère does, "Lyon".


 * Valid political correctness question to me, for Wikipedia generally, is what spellings & punctuations to use here on the "WikipediaEnglish" site, particularly considering that there now is a "WikipediaFrench"... There must be a policy somewhere on this but I don't know what it is, myself. I suppose said policy might demand English spellings on "WikipediaEnglish", French spellings on "WikipediaFrench": that might solve the "Lyon / Lyons" conundrum here -- altho it might then get into "colour vs. color" and "whilst vs. while" and that sort of thing, with "the Americans" -- so maybe we'd need a "WikipediaAmerican" site too... and then there's "WikipediaTexan", y'all...


 * --Kessler 21:35, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It does. See WP:UE; there is also policy to leave "color"/"colour" alone, because that is between two varieties of English. Septentrionalis 22:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I think movement generally is to move away from "Anglicised" spellings like Lyons and Marseilles to the original spellings, where they are just as easy to pronounce. The Guardian style guide has suggested Lyon for some years.


 * I'd be in favor of a general Wikipedia policy "localizing" all place-name spellings and versions -- Mumbai instead of Bombay, Chennai instead of Madras, as examples of the latter -- both because it seems inevitable given current "movements generally", just mentioned, and because it seems practical in that the number of "local" folks everywhere who are getting online is going up rather than down. So "local" folks and their resources increasingly would be in conflict with other standards & spellings adopted online.


 * Not that this would cut down on the anomalies and name-changes: local folks seem to change these names as often as other "authorities" do -- witness the maps of India & China & Africa and most other ex-colonial and / or politically-unsettled places. Also this doesn't resolve the character sets problem: OK for Mumbai and Chennai, but what to do about Københaven?


 * Is there an overall Wikipedia policy on this sort of place-name language standardization, anybody know?


 * --Kessler 00:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * WP:UE -- the Wikipedia standard, for this sort of thing -- says,


 * "American spellings need not be respelled to British standards nor vice-versa; for example, either Colour or Color is acceptable. But bear in mind that using one English variant may cause searches in another variant to fail. To prevent this, it is recommended that you create a new article using the alternative spelling which redirects to the main article."


 * The request to redirect the article to "Lyons" says,


 * "Talk:Lyon - Lyon → Lyons. WP:UE is clear: the English Wikipedia should use the established English spelling. Official spelling in French matters to fr:Lyon. Septentrionalis 22:29, 9 August 2005 (UTC) "


 * -- but that begs the question, here, because not only the French but also the Americans spell the thing "Lyon" --


 * "Lyon n., a city in southeastern France, on the Rhone: English name, Lyons", Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language (Cleveland & New York : World Publishing, 1960)


 * I believe there is a confusion here. Webster's is not distinguishing English usage from American (which differs only in that Americans discuss Lyons less often) but from French. For example, even translations from the French, published in New York, often use Lyons; and translators are more likely than most to retain the foreign usage in front of them.  Webster's also makes clear in the introduction that its intention is to follow the opposite course from Wikipedia, to follow native usage unless unavoidable.  This is quite reasonable for a gazeteer, which only needs to discuss each foreign city once, and has reason to discuss the foreign pronounciation. Septentrionalis 01:40, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * So I vote for leaving the article where it is, at "Lyon", and putting in the redirect at "Lyons" instead. My motivation is not to dis the British but more to respect the "local" spelling preference.


 * I wonder how WP:UE would deal with my Bombay/Mumbai and Madras/Chennai examples -- I don't see anything there about that.
 * --Kessler 00:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * See the archived talk page Talk:Kolkata/archive2. But India is diffrent from France because there is a valid local English dialect. So in none English Speaking countries the rule is the most common English usage (WP:UE). If there is a diffrence between AE and CE (Commonwealth English) then use the one in line with the spelling on the rest of the page. There has been discussion on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style to make all of the articles on EU countries CE based but there is no agreement to do so. Philip Baird Shearer 07:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

You are incorrect about Webster's. Their entire point, in the entry for "Lyon" which I cite, is to distinguish the English usage from the American. Reproducing the entry exactly as it appears, in my edition,


 * Lyon (lyōn), n. a city in southeastern France, on the Rhone: pop., 461,000 (1946): English name, Lyons.

-- this is as per the full title of the work, as well, Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language [emphasis added] -- there is a long history to this... I don't see the Webster's Introduction passage which you cite, in my edition, but it supports my point: the French spell it "Lyon", too.

For Wikipedia purposes here, though, to me it seems enough that, a) Wikipedia policy is against it, WP:UE saying, "American spellings need not be respelled to British standards nor vice-versa", also, b) it would be pretty pointless, and confusing, to start combing through Wikipedia to change all American spellings to the British, anyway. (And my own motivation too, as I've said, is to preserve the "local" spelling -- in this case that of the French themselves -- whenever possible.) So I'd leave it where it is, at "Lyon".

--Kessler 17:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

This page http://www.lgib.gov.uk/international/Establishing_a_partnership/twinning_db.html lists all the twinned towns and cities in the UK and their twins. For example Edinburgh is twinned with Munich (Munchen) and Kiev amoung others. Brimingham is twinned with Milan and Lyon amoung others. So it seems that the British spelling of Lyon is the same as the French.

I think this vote should be closed so I am going to remove the request to move from the top of this page and the request from the WP:RM page. I do not think that a clear consensus to move the page has emerged within five days. But if anyone disagrees with me then please make a new request and use the format for the talk page recommended in the WP:RM subsection WP:RM. --Philip Baird Shearer 07:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * All of my English dictionaries (both UK and USA English) state Lyons as the English name, claiming the French name is Lyon. 62.194.120.60 (talk) 00:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

geolocation coordinates in a GoogleEarth age
It seems to me that geolocation coordinates are going to become more and more important in any sort of reference work, now that GoogleEarth is upon us -- and so need to be moved to the top of entries instead of getting buried down into text bodies and "geography" headings where they only get discovered belatedly.

Very quickly now, I believe, the connectivity between general public GIS -- like GoogleEarth but also GPS systems and flipfones and all the rest -- and text & imaging is improving so that before too long all this will have merged. Seamless web, then, between a Wikipedia text entry and "linked" mapping & other resources: already -- as of this month, in fact -- it's just a cut&paste, and very quickly it will be just a link click.

So a terrestrial location like "Lyon", in Wikipedia, needs to be easily linked to mapping resources like GoogleEarth which are in use by the general public. GIS has been available to specialists for some time: the difference now is that Google is going to give this access to everybody -- to <U>all</U> of Wikipedia's users. It's the old Internet phenom: where a technology previous well-known to the initiated suddenly, 1992-3, became accessible to the great unwashed as well, and look at what changes that produced...

So to be prepared for this I believe geolocation coordinates need to come up first / initially / at or near the beginning of a Wikipedia entry. Just the lat & long, not how many volcanoes there are there: the latter still can be buried somewhere further down where only the geologists will seek and find them -- but every user, increasingly, is going to want to "see where this thing is located", now that GoogleEarth is here.

Also, coordinates need to include seconds: those make a pretty big difference to anyone trying to locate an ancient ruin or a city at a GoogleEarth altitude of only 400 feet.

--Kessler 21:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * See Template:Infobox Town Septentrionalis 01:40, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

It is silly to list distances from all those cities, especially Barcelona (Barcelona???!!!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 16:42, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Dating services...
I don't think the addition of services like the following, which just was added to the article,


 * http://www.lyon-dating.com/ Lyon dating

is appropriate, or is safe for Wikipedia to allow.

There is no way of checking out sites like this -- and these "dating" services may start off ok but then change, and there is no way to keep up with that. And per the overall Wikipedia policy this isn't "encyclopedia-like" information. I recommend this link be deleted.


 * for those interested (not me), it still in the discussion page anyway Dingy 03:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

--Kessler 18:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. 'Tis done. Anville 18:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

There are usually other sites which keep track of current information realevent to people living in the city, for Lyon the best is Le Petit Bulletin which tells everyone when all the shows are. i'll add it. JeffBurdges 13:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

New Infobox Template proposition
I'd like to bring your attention to a new - or other - version of the "Large French Cities" infobox presently at use in a few French cities pages. The present version is much too large, partly because it consecrates too much space to information having little importance to French demography and an only distant and indirect relevence to the city itself. Instead I propose to follow a less cumbersome model closer to that used by the New York City article - you can view the new version in the Paris talk page here. Please view and comment. T HE P ROMENADER 22:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * As a result of some discussion over the past weeks, there is an updated template available for perusal in its 'published ' form (filled with data) here - all comments welcome. --  T HE P ROMENADER  07:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not sure how to picture that working for Lyon - thankfully Lyon doesn't have 37 different ways of defining itself ;) But if you have a proposition to make of a template with Lyon's figures etc filled in, I'd be interested in seeing it. Stevage 09:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL - you are, and it's in place - the above message is outdated. Discussion was long and lively, and half of it has been archived. For now it seems that discussion is centred around 'optional fields' .... wait a sec, are you talking about the 'demographic' infobox you first see when you click 'here'? LOL.... no, not very suited to Lyon : ) Time to archive this section perhaps.  T HE P ROMENADER  09:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Picture requests?
I live in Lyon and have a digital camera. Can anyone think of some pictures that this article really needs? Drop me a line if you like. Stevage 09:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, well now I no longer live in Lyon. ;) Stevage 09:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Silk trade
When did the Silk trade get going, and is there enough material to either add a section or a page? ThuranX 16:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a museum in Lyon about this - dont know if a web site exists for it. My understanding is that Francois 1er tasked Lyon to work silk and started the industry. Lyon was the end of the silk route - so the trade route ended in lyon with finished products being made in that city. This affected many dimensions of the city, for example the buildings were unusual tall to accomodate the equipment needed to create lengths of silk.. There are many ateliers still active in the city though the revolution changed the dominance of that industry.

68.41.1.184 (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)ant1

ThuranX - from what I've read - lyon started being a warehousing center in the 1400s. River access was a big part of that. Louis XVI wanted to develop the ability to make silks in Lyon - and did so in mid 1400s. Francois 1er gave the monopoly to Lyon for the production of silk (1536). Jacquard invented the loom there of his name. BTW - the high ceilings were designed to accomodate these looms. Lyon is still referenced as a key provider of silk to the fashion industry. It's definitely something that shaped that city and made it wealthy and known in the last few hundred years. Notably - the traboules were important so that the long silk panels could be moved around the city. So I think it's a critical part of the city's development from 1500 forward. Particularly in the Vieux Lyon and Croix Rousse.

68.41.1.184 (talk) 03:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC) ant1

Arpitan nonsense
Is there a way that we can stop all this "Arpitan" nonsense? There are people who keep changing "Franco-Provençal" into "Arpitan", a name little known in the English-speaking world (this is the ENGLISH Wikipedia mind you). I suspect there is a very bizarre agenda behind this continuous revert war. One editor even went as far as describing Lyon as a city originally inhabited by "Arpitans". What the heck is that?? So according to that bizarre agenda, Lyon is an Arpitan city currently occupied by France. I must have missed a chapter in world history. LOL. Godefroy (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

the revolutionary spirit lives on... 68.41.1.184 (talk) 17:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)ant1

SIL International, the Registration Authority for ISO Standard 639-3:2007, lists this language as name Franco-Provençal, with Arpitan and Patois listed as alternate names. Similarly, and so on. Franco-Provençal is the established English-language name. This Wikipedia is written in English. Live with it. -- Thnidu (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Russki is an alternate name for Russian
 * Français for French
 * Castellano, Castilian, Español for Spanish
 * Beifang Fangyan, Guanhua, Guoyu, Hanyu, Mandarin, Northern Chinese, Putonghua, Standard Chinese for Mandarin Chinese

Lyons / Lyon (re-opening discussion)
I'm hoping to reopen this, because I think Wikipedia should stick with the English versions of place names. Why make exceptions for Lyons / Lyon or Bombay / Mumbai? Why stop there then, and why not then change Milan to Milano, Cairo to Al Qahira, The Hague to 's Gravenhage / Den Haag...? After all, those are the native names of those cities too. One really shouldn't be selective.

If some people protest, well then it should be explained that, to be consistent, Wikipedia is using the English version of place names. It is in English, after all, right? The French / Vietnamese / Hindi / Afrikaans / whatever / versions of Wikipedia can feel free to use their version of place name.

I mean, we don't see the Venetians get all up in arms because their city (Venezia) is called Venice in English, Venise in French, Venedig in German and so forth, do we? Or the Londoners complaining that the French call their city Londres and the Italians Londra?


 * If an english person say to a "lyonnais" about Lyons or Lyon, he wouldn't understand why there is a "s". Also I don't understand that. But on fr: we also use the french names of cities so do not hesitate! Otourly (talk) 06:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Other point: if I mispronounce a foreign name I tend to think it's me who is wrong, not the other who lives in the country and by definition knows better. So yes, I take his word, spelling and pronunciation, as the right ones. But I can hear/see it said/written when I meet them, so I'm not running after everyone to ask them for the sake of rules and political correctness, that's no better than imposing them to have another name. In doubt say both names.
 * Henry I died in Lyons, also called Lyons-la-Forêt. Also pronounced with no 's' heard at the end. One hour's drive N-W of Paris. In a part of Normandy called the Pays de Bray, also known as the petite Suisse normande ("Little Normand Switzerland"), sise on the location of an eroded anticline, a geological feature called in French a "buttonhole". Which gives it lots of water for all the clay that layers its soil, hence Forges-les-Eaux a famous spa right beside Lyons. Because of that buttonhole effect it has impressive ridges all around (hence the name), which mark it unmistakenly for an entity apart. When you drive into the area it feels a bit like driving down a hole full of trees for all the forest (over 10,000 ha, largest in Normandy and among the largest Beech forests in Europe). And for those you feel that sort of things, yes there is magic there and it is not the same as the flatter land around it. It's also a place which holds three AOC within its 750 km² total land surface. It is very offending to not respect that. Well yes, it is. If it was anywhere else I'd feel just the same, because as I see it, it is offending to diversity at large and by extension to life.
 * I am French, I'm not from Lyons nor Lyon but from north Burgundy, so sort of half-way between while a wee bit nearer to Lyon du Rhone than to the other. With a father enclined to tell stories of French history which he knew very well. Lyon was very much talked about, of course, but Lyons, despite its small physical size, was relatively very much talked about too. For 800 inhabitants they ain't been half busy in intruigues in their time, what with Forges-les-Bains being a pretext for the upper class to drop by regularly. And many other things, which is a whole culture incredibly rich for the physical size of it. It's *** beautiful too, actually. And it is a cultural crime to mix it with Lyon.
 * So, if there's no 's' at the end you don't get people to pronounce it in a way that is utterly unrecognizable for most French people. Which is somewhat handy when you visit the area, let's note, and more courteous too. Also much less confusing when you address people who know about Lyons. That wouldn't be so bad if the "Lyon-ss-ers" would at least respect the French pronunciation rule - of generally not pronouncing 's'es at end of words, bar a few exceptions including, precisely, to mark a difference by emphasizing a critical difference. Like, someone talks about Lyons(-la-Foret) and you don't know which Lyon or Lyons it is, you say, "Lyon or Lyon-ss?". Why do you want to bring more confusion for the sake of supporting a habit made into a rule? French wiki does it, so that doesn't make the French political backlog and back-alleys less smelly of imperialism. And neighbouring the more numerous English-speaking people, they would of course be stickier on language points for identity's sake.
 * Beside that I don't know that many English-speaking people who say 'Lyon-ss', there are less of these than of people who prononced it correctly even before I turned up. I don't think the majority of English-speaking people put and say an 's' for no understandable reason whatsoever.
 * Lastly that I can see of, that proposal you put forward does not even respect this other basic rule by which a language is born and evoluates (the first one is about the convention of phonetic recognition between Lyon and Lyons). This evolution tends to simplify / shorten words unless there's a marking event that changes the course of memories, history and language. Venice, London, ... the way you say it does not make the word longer.
 * For Lyon, you add a letter and more effort at pronunciation; for no good reason since on top of it being longer to write and say it brings both the confusion with Lyons (the real one), and the pronounciation/comprehension problem and its subsequent unneeded alienation for visitors. It's just too many strokes against the grain, I think.Basicdesign (talk) 20:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's way simpler than any of this. I agree that the most common spelling/pronunciation seen/heard in English should be used.  But, to be honest, I only rarely encounter the spelling of Lyon with the peculiar inflection discussed here: "Lyons".  Perhaps "Lyons" used to be more common, but I'd say it would receive no more than 50% support any more.  Siilarly, while "Bombay" would have been nearly universal 25 years ago, from my own readings and conversations I would venture, anecdotally, that "Mumbai" controls about 50% of the time today, and it's growing. For this reason, on this article, given two appropriate English spellings, I'd choose the one that's most popular and trending upward: "Lyon." Jkatzen (talk) 21:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. In cases where there is an English form of a city's name that is indisputably the most widespread (e.g., Rome, Lisbon, Cairo), that should be used in Wikipedia.  I do not think that is the case for "Lyons," or "Marseilles" for that matter. The trend seems to be toward adoption of the French spellings, belatedly following the pronunciation shift (at one time, the "s" at the end was pronounced) that has already occurred. Funnyhat (talk) 03:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagreed. München, Roma etc are not the English forms. This is the English Wiki. LYONS should be the form. Any trend that you speak of should be countered by Anglophones.I do not see London but Londres in the French wiki, and that is quite correct and as it should be.Jatrius (talk) 10:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just looking at my green Michelin (since my red guides are playing hide-and-seek with me right now), it pretty clearly says "Lyons", and that's a French company publishing the guide. There's nothing within the green article saying "the real spelling is Lyon". I've always known the city as Lyons (and I'm Canadian, so I know there's no definite -ess sound in the name). Similarly, I had no idea that Marseilles didn't have the "s" - though I see now in the Green guide there is one map caption with "Marseille", in contrast to every other instance in the article. I need to find my Michelin red guides too, but my "most recognized" would be with the "s" on the end. Franamax (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I am French and think you should use Lyons and Marseilles. Thierry Caro (talk) 17:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just there, via British Airways, and my booking and ticket said "Lyon". If you try to book "Lyons", you get the error message "British Airways does not currently fly to LYONS."  As far as I can tell, this spelling has become much more widespread in English, and "Lyons" seems to be on the way out.  Wikipedia should respect this reality, not the historical way it was.  This is quite different from Cairo and Venice, maybe more like Mumbai and Beijing. Dicklyon (talk) 18:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I just tried to book a ticket on British Airways and found that error message very confusing; the reason I visited this page on Wikipedia was to check that I was booking a ticket to the right place! "Lyon" is Lyons in English for the same reason Bruxelles is Brussels and Roma is Rome. British Airways are clearly trying to force a change in habit, as has been done for Bombay/Mumbai and Peking/Beijing. Wikipedia should respect the current reality of the English language, not join an attempt to change it. Move to Lyons. 217.155.66.190 (talk) 18:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * First, thank you Dicklyon for your photos like this one. Secondly I think you're right. The town is well known thanks to the football club. According to me that's why the english name is became Lyon. Otourly (talk) 17:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't we assume that British Airways is wrong? Many websites can't manage my accented name, I won't change it though. I am french and I was taught for years (10+) about this "s" to Lyons, Marseilles, etc… I think it should be kept. Thargos (talk) 15:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It;s not just BA, go to any UK airport that flies there, and the flight will be to "Lyon". Just try putting Holiday Lyons into Google, and the only real hit you will get in a holiday camp in North Wales - Google guesses you mean Holiday Lyon and displays the rest - all with Lyon in the name, be it on a UK site or others.  Ron h jones (Talk) 20:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the Michelin example, they may not actually be the best source because, as a French company, they may not be aware of a shift in usage among many English speakers. There's no doubt that the spellings Lyon and Marseille are more common in English now than they were a generation ago. We can observe this because we live in English-speaking socities and note the change, but if you live in a French-speaking environment, the change may not be as noticeable. 24.11.127.26 (talk) 20:32, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

lyon history - roman details
lyon is well known for the 2 ampitheaters. There is a larger one and a smaller ampitheater. Next to the larger ampitheater - a gallo roman museum is embedded in the hill. The ampitheater is still used for performances. There are a few walls which still show the plaster method which was applied to the structure.

Much less well known today is the colisseum. It is not easy to get to - and not well indicated. It's not very large either compared to the opulence of the ampitheaters. That's where Blandine was first put to the test of the wild animals (bull I believe) and subsequently taken to the saone after the bull would not gore her.

The colisseum is associated with being the site of the Council of the Gauls. The council which represented the 80 tribes of gaul met annually near the site of the colisseum. I believe that the romans allowed this practice to continue for a period of time.

Recently, some improvements have been made to the Baths which have some remains visible above ground.

Romans were very fond of the city for many reasons one of which was the mountain/hill named Fourviere which they related to the hills of Rome.

Nearby Vienne was the other key Roman town (located south on the Rhone river banks)- but preference was given to Lyon when Lyon supported Rome while Vienne supported an local insurection. Rumor has it that Vienne has huge archeological potential based on the lack of development.

In Lyon, any subterranean work is prone to lengthy archeological delays based on peeling back successive layers of buildings from over 2000 years of habitation. This happened during the subway development in the 1990s.

hope this content helps

68.41.1.184 (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)ant1

Lyon has been changed to Mayo - What's going on?
Is it me or has someone changed Lyon in Mayo? The page appears to have been vandalised Robdav69 (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I've changed some of the Mayo words back to Lyon but someone needs to tidy this artcle I suspect a vandal or an idiot has been at play Robdav69 (talk) 17:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I've corrected the Vandalism?
I've not searched the history to see the IP who vandalised this article I would suggest the page is watched and any vandalism reported

Thanks Robdav69 (talk) 17:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this is the User: 82.39.146.46, if somebody wants to report

Seneca reference to destruction of Lyon by fire
Letter XCI from "Seneca Letters from a Stoic" (Robin Campbell translation) begins : My friend Liberalis is in distress at the present moment following the news of the complete destruction of Lyons by fire...Lyons, the showpiece of Gaul, is lost to view. This must have been around AD65, the last year or so of Seneca's life, when he was writing these letters. The brief histories I have read (Britannica, Wikipedia) do not mention this fire - is this because there was no such fire ? - Seneca just repeated a false rumour ? - or because an actual fire was exaggerated or unimportant because so early in the city's history ? Perhaps Seneca's references to Lyon could be worth a mention in the article ? Alanfmcculloch (talk) 08:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alanfmcculloch (talk • contribs) 08:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Portal:Lyon
I decided to create a portal of Lyon (Portal:Lyon, It's the first time I'm creating a portal and in English so it will be long =). The french wikipedia portal is Portail:Grand Lyon If you want to help me on this difficult task you are welcome. Lulu97417 (talk) 01:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation as
In a break from the spelling thread, are there really any English speakers who pronounce the name as ? I've never heard that (I'm British and in my mid-forties). Is it an American thing, perhaps, or possibly just mistaken?

82.20.34.218 (talk) 10:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC) Tim


 * Dictionary.com's entry shows IPA for "Lyon" as, but only as the name of a person (Mary Lyon, definition 1). For the French city (definition 2), it says . On that same page, it also lists the spelling "Lyons" for the city, giving IPA as " or sometimes, ". Merriam-Webster also seems to agree that the pronunciation you are questioning only refers to Mary Lyon and not the city. However, they also provide a pronunciation like , reflecting the 's' in the spelling "Lyons". Based on these two sources, I think the pronunciation  should be replaced with , and will do so now. -Krasnoludek (talk) 18:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems right to me. Dicklyon (talk) 19:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Americans pronounce it the French way (well, more or less). 108.254.160.23 (talk) 04:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Page layout formatting
This article has page layout problems (e.g. edit link bunching) that I suspect are caused by conflicts between the coding used in the table, infobox, image gallery, and/or wrapper elements. I made a few attempts to fix the problem using stack, then FixBunching, but my efforts met with only partial success, and caused new problems. The whole thing is beyond me at the moment. It would be good if someone more familiar with this code could give the page a going-over. Eric talk 17:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

POPULATION TOTALY WRONG Unité urbaine (in french) = Urban area (in english) Aire urbaine (in french) = Metropolitan area (in english)

Lyon urban area is not estimated to be 1,783,400 but nearly only 1 400 000 and that of its metropolitan area is not estimated to be 4,415,000 but only 1,783,400. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.195.133.166 (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Population of Lyon and France
I was reading information about few cities around France and Lyon was one of them, the problem that i saw in the text is the statistical problem of population for all of the cities but Lyon is one that got really so i start here. There is a link in the chapter that takes you to a new page that has list of communities in France with population over 200.000 inhabitants and Lyon is third ,but the population that is cited there is 472.305 from the 2006 census (as cited there) and on the this page it is written that Lyon has Urban population of 1.551.228 and Metro population of 2.118.132 for 2010 and 2008 respectively ,compared to almost 500.000 population of Lyon for 2011 according to Insee (i think it's French institute for demography) it is huge difference. What i want to know is what does the author of this numbers in this article mean and how is it possible to be such a difference in the numbers, it is because of some kind of dividing of the cities or something different in question ? thank you for reading

Daci92 (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Sister cities
The list of sister cities currently on the city website is shorter than what was previously there. Did they drop St. Louis, Beersheba. etc? Ibadibam (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Answer about the "divided city"
You nailed it right: the big difference between the figures (from around 500,000 inhabitants to over 2,2 millions) is due to the difference between the administrative limits, which are relatively narrow, and the real size of the city. For example, districts in the center of Lyon (such as Villeurbanne for example) are not administratively part of Lyon, but independant towns of their own, even though they're right downtown. Administratively speaking, Lyon is only the part of the city stuck in between all of the districts that surround it (Villeurbanne, Vaulx en Velin, Bron, Vénissieux, Saint-Fons, Pierre Bénite, Oullins, La Mulatière, Sainte-Foy, Tassin, Caluire, etc...) which are downtown, for someone who lives in the surburbs, but which are, administratively speaking independant towns of their own, and not districts from Lyon... There is then, the surburb itself, which is around the city. The limits of Lyon are very old. During centuries the towns grew more and more, in a lot of cases, historical centers and cities tend to have simply incorporated their neighbours in the city, making them a district of the bigger city. ... But not in the case of Lyon... You can thus find yourself downtown in the center and... change city just by walking on the pavement, without even noticing it, if you don't happen to pass before the sign that indicates you are changing towns... It is the case in other cities than Lyon nowdays. Only, in Lyon, it happens on an excessively large scale. You can find on the internet many discussions about including Villeurbanne as a district of Lyon, or Saint Fons, or Bron, or many other districts of Lyon which are administratively not districts of Lyon but independant towns. THe figures of the inhabitants of Lyon as an administrative entity (that is to say just the center) have not significatively changed eversince the end of the 19th century!! Since Lyon is totally surrounded and cannot grow, unless it were to incorporate its neighbour towns, which are in real life feeling, just districts of Lyon... But not administratively speaking... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis.luisluis (talk • contribs) 02:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Sister Cities tagging
Hello Lists in Wikipedia do not need to be complete per MOS:LIST. Archived sources are acceptable, particularly in cases such as this where it appears that the mairie is no longer keeping a complete list on line. In order to prove that it is out of date, you would need to find an updated source, and if you were to find one why not update the list at that point? Regards, Vrac (talk) 01:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to mention the location of deadly viruses in Lyon?
In the current security scenario, is it prudent to disclose the exact location of deadly viruses? Everyone reads Wikipedia, including people who should not be privy to such information as it might pose a security threat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.107.208 (talk) 00:14, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Name
The lead simply gives the name of the city as "Lyon or Lyons". Actually, my understanding is that in French (and in France) the name is invariably rendered as Lyon; but in English-language texts, traditionally at least, as Lyons. I don't know any more about this – the etymological background; and whether, in an age of global communication, this is changing – and I came here hoping to find out; but there's nothing. Can somebody who knows add something? Compare the similar case of Marseille, which does at least say something (though not much) about the two spellings. Eric Pode lives (talk) 12:14, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, I am also concerned that WP English writes Lyon and Marseille without the s, while it seems to be a long established writing in English. --Bouzinac (talk) 09:30, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Traditionally both cities' names were spelled with an "s" in English, and this was even pronounced. But the French pronunciation is now used in English, and there is a growing tendency to use the French spelling, too. 2602:306:CFEA:170:6D5D:A41F:A482:923F (talk) 03:59, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving Climate and Culture sections

 * Hello,
 * I am hoping to make some additions to the climate and (possibly) to the culture section that talks about the Lyonnais dialect. I have reviewed the French counterpart to this article and both sections are much more developed. However, the French version's climate section does not have many high quality sources for its climate information. Does anyone have any suggestion for what kind of sources would be acceptable for climate information? I see from looking at other cities' articles that they also sometimes detail severe weather events in this section. Are they generally appropriate for this type of article? In regard to the Lyonnais dialect, there is a starter wiki page in French that has more information on this topic.[] I expect this will be my starting place to see where their information is coming from so that I can hopefully incorporate it into this article. I will also try to review the Franco-Provençal language wiki to see if it can help to give me some idea of where I could look for verifiable information on this topic.--Caleb26 (talk) 05:37, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Languages and dialects are a fascinating subject, and there are many Wikipedia articles about them. The language/dialect you're looking for seems to be here: Lyonnais, which was probably hard to find because it has a redirect to Franco-Provençal language. Perhaps you could create a paragraph that has a 'main article' link to Franco-Provençal language. DrMichaelWright (talk) 22:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Culture and Demographics
Hi. I'm a student editor and I hope (in the next weeks) to contribute to the culture and demographics sections of this article. I will be researching average income, tax rates and organization, and income dispersion among predominate professions and industries. I would like also to contribute to the street art and other section of the culture area of the article. Thank you, Missi Jarrar (talk) 00:35, 25 October 2018 (UTC)