Talk:MacOS/Archive 4

Why no criticisms?
I have to wonder, why both the Linux and Mac OS X entries have absolutely no mention of OS criticisms at all? The first person that says they are perfect are nothing more than fanboi's... --Evil.Merlin 20:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, the only criticism of the OS I can think of is its incompatibility with Windows applications, but that can be seen as a negative on the Windows side as well. (being incompatible with OS X applications) Ragonamuffin 07:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Warrens, I have removed the pronunciation from the intro in the past because it invariably causes arguments, and the text in the Naming section represents a consensus on the NPOV way to present it. You can keep reverting me, but I'm just letting you know that having it in the intro is only inviting trouble. MFNickster 19:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Trouble from whom, you? I looked through the entire talk history and saw no specific conversation about including or excluding pronounciation in the lead.
 * No, not from me - but take a look at the edit history of the article (not the talk page) to see how it gets batted around. I don't think the pronunciation is really in question - or even enough of an issue to mention, but having it in the intro seems to invite vandalism from those who don't care for the "official" pronunciation. MFNickster 21:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Given that people coming to this subject for the very first time may be confused about how to pronounce the name of the article itself, it seems appropriate to note the official pronounciation right from the start. Also, I remind you that a Lead section "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article."; given that we have an entire section of the article dedicated to naming, which leads off with a statement on pronounciation, I think it's fair to include it in the lead.
 * I don't think it's that important, but let's see what others have to say. MFNickster 21:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only might people be confused about the 'ten' part, the OS could be equally confusing. Even in capital letters, someone new to the subject might pronounce it as a word (like the OS of DOS). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.173.33 (talk • contribs)


 * The lead is nowhere near complete, though; it is still inadequate at explaining what Mac OS X is... I'll be working more on it in the days to come. Warrens 19:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Take a look at this edit I did a while back to pare it down when it got too clunky. I hope it helps, at least to give you an idea of what to avoid! MFNickster 21:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with MFNickster that the prounciation thing does attract bad edits, the edits are easily reverted, so I'd support its inclusion. AlistairMcMillan 22:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I never have pronounced it "Mac OS Ten" ever, or even knew there was such thing as an "official pronunciation." And I'm using it right now. I would not include a pronunciation reference. (By the way, how do you pronounce Linux?) Ninetigerr 05:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)ninetigerr


 * Check out any video from Apple keynotes or developer seminars. They always say "Mac OS Ten." Also, if you have a Mac, you can ask it. Open TextEdit, type "I love Mac OS X" and then choose Edit->Speech->Start Speaking. That's not by accident. MFNickster 07:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If the article retains the section on pronunciation then I think it would be better to use the full description "Macintosh Operating System Ten" and explain that the X is a Roman numeral symbolising the number 10. Anyone with enough intelligence to browse the internet shouldn't have any difficulty understanding that. ++ Nutrox 17:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The article should explain that it's spelled "Mac OS X," but it's pronounced "Throat Wobbler Mangrove."
 * (looks like I was right-- how many edits have been made to that first line since I warned y'all?) MFNickster

Redux
"Officially pronounced Mac O S Ten" (or "Oh Ess", I suppose, but IMO that looks a bit goofy) is probably as good and succinct as we're going to get. Trying to explain roman numerals in parentheses at the very beginning of the article looks messy. This is covered well in the Naming section in the article, anyhow. Nobody knows how the hell IPA works, either, so it wouldn't aid in understanding by the average reader. The word "Officially" is vital... it states that this is how Apple says it, but also has a subtle implication that there are non-official ways of pronounciation, too. We also get into that in the Naming section.

Again, bear in mind that this is a WP:LEAD section -- stating the pronounciation is a good thing to do (because it's not obvious to someone not familiar with the subject), but we don't need to explain it any further right away... relative to Mac OS X as an entire subject, it doesn't merit more than a few words in the lead. -/- Warren 03:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't it Mac OS X (mac os eks, something like that)?--Emx 17:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, its not pronounced as an X but as a 10, as it is a roman numeral. — Wackymacs 18:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite a lot of folks pronounce it "Mac Oh Ess Ex", or "Oh Ess Ex" for short, both inside and outside Apple. However, I believe the official pronuciation is likely "Mac Oh Ess Ten". Stattenf 04:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Remove -- I stubbled upon this article and thought that was the most useless part of the article. It is not needed. Maybe a section distingushing the popular "Mac OS 'ex'" pronounciation, but thats it, no mac ohh-yessss ten!!!!--Nytemunkey 20:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Public usage of Cheetah/Puma
Another example: watch http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc05/ at the 18:20 mark. AlistairMcMillan 21:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That was post-Jaguar; were there any pre-Jaguar uses of Cheetah or Puma? (I don't know whether the knowledge base article you cited was published before or after Jaguar came out.)  I.e., did they only start using Cheetah and Puma retroactively after they came out with Jaguar? Guy Harris 22:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ars Technica's review of 10.2 addressed this issue explicity, here. Warrens 22:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * ...by saying


 * The official product name for this release is "Mac OS X Version 10.2 Jaguar." The previous releases also had "big cat" code names. Version 10.0's somewhat inappropriate code name was "Cheetah." Version 10.1 was "Puma." But these code names never spread very far outside of Apple. Developers and technically-minded Mac enthusiasts were aware of them, but that's about it.


 * i.e. no, Cheetah and Puma were not advertised or otherwise touted as such by Apple, and Jaguar was the first OS X release where the cat name was part fo the branding. Guy Harris 08:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You can also see it in posts like this and this from 2001 which pre-date the 2002 release of Puma. The cat names have been there since the beginning. AlistairMcMillan 23:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know they were there as code names since the beginning. There was, however, a shift in the use of the code names in Jaguar, as the Ars Technica article Warrens cited indicates. Guy Harris 08:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Radical, dude
I made a few minor grammatical changes to the comparison section to push the tense into the past tense. The present conrstruction made it seem like we were still in 2002 and lots of people were needing convincing to drop OS 9. Ie, "this is a radical" to "this was". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Herr von underpants (talk • contribs) 21:16, 2 July 2006

Changes in UI as of 10.4.7?
I've noticed that the Apple logo and the Spotlight thingy in the menubar are now slightly smaller. Has anyone else noticed this? --M1ss1ontom a rs2k4 (T 00:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss at Talk:Mac OS X v10.4. AlistairMcMillan 00:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Mac OS X on an iPod?
yeah, they said at this site (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9teB3cgZGcw) you can do it, how do i do it?
 * Sorry to tell you this but...that's fake. The iPod doesn't use a touch screen for a start does it? — Wackymacs 12:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Darwin kernel on Intel redux
Apple has announced that they are hosting the source for Darwin (including the XNU kernel) for Intel at MacOSForge.org. There should be no question now as to whether Darwin is open source (it definitely is). MFNickster 06:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Fostering Cocoa-Java vs Java confusion
The four toolkits bit in the PowerPC section is confusing at the end, because the section talks about Cocoa in the beginning, then Java, and then Cocoa-Java/Java-Cocoa being deprecated. It can seem like the last two sentences (coming as they do immediately following the the Java platform bit) mean that Apple deprecated Java on Mac OS X rather than Java as a language to use when writing Cocoa apps.

Lots of people are confused by this already, and re-arranging those sentences (perhaps a new subsection on languages used to write Cocoa apps and featuring all of the languages-to-Cocoa bridges--PyObjC bridge, camelbones [perl], RubyCocoa [Ruby] and Cocoa-Java) would be a better way to discuss the end of Cocoa-Java without fostering confusion over the state of Java proper on Mac OS X. —4.249.117.104 06:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Name of the GUI
Saying the GUI is Quartz Compositor is like saying that, for example, the GUI of Ubuntu is X11 rather than GNOME or of DesktopBSD is X11 rather than KDE. As Apple's Graphics & Imaging Overview says, "The Quartz Compositor windowing service provides low-level functionality including window buffering, event handling and dispatch, and the translucent and drop shadow effects found in the Aqua user interface.". It doesn't include the widgets (Carbon+Cocoa), file manager (Finder), the Dock, the menu bar+menu extras (SystemUIServer), clipboard (pasteboard server), etc., just as X11 provides low-level functionality but doesn't provide the widgets (GTK+/Qt/etc.), much less even higher-level functions such as the file manager (Nautilus/Konqueror/etc.), task bar, panel, etc..

I'm not sure whether Apple have a name for the full panoply of software that would correspond to all the GNOME/KDE/etc. software. If it shouldn't be called "Aqua", perhaps it should be called the "Mac OS X native GUI" (which sounds a bit redundant in an infobox about OS X or OS X Server, but...)? Guy Harris 20:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think Apple have a name for the whole thing. Perhaps we should either remove UI from the template or just go with what Windows XP has: "graphical user interface".  AlistairMcMillan 21:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Change Image
How many people think that the main image should be changed to a Leopard shot. I realize it is only in prerelease stage, but seeing as apple is now pushing leopard on their site it would seem appropriate. When you go to the OS X page on Apple's site it redirects to Leopard. TrevorLSciAct 02:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

For:

Against:
 * 1) I'm not dead against it, but I think we should wait until the official release. There's already a screenshot on the Leopard article. MFNickster 03:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) I can't believe we're doing a vote over this...Leopard is an early beta product, and many of its features and even its interface will most likely change. There's still a whole year to go for Leopard until its complete. — Wackymacs 13:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)