Talk:Madonna/Archive 15

Forbes says she isn't a billionaire
Should this be taken into account: http://www.forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg/2013/03/28/why-madonna-isnt-on-the-forbes-billionaires-list/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.113.198 (talk) 08:02, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow that certainly is a new insight? Let's see what other third party sources come up with on this. The billionaire issue is reported through a number of reputed sources though. — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 08:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't have it's facts straight in multiple cases. To point one out would be how much MDNA sold. That doesn't have anything to do with the topic, but it shows that the writer isn't sure what he is writing about. Zach 08:16, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Zach, would you explain a bit more? — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 08:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For example, they say she got $22 million from her MDNA Tour, while Billboard says she got an estimated $32 million. Billboard also notes Madonna got $1.5 million from sales of MDNA. Despite all of this, Forbes did not list her on their biggest-moneymakers of 2012 list, while Billboard actually had her at #1 with making $34,577,308.62 in 2012. I've also read that apparently Madonna and Forbes got into some disagreement when she wouldn't let them have access to her accounts to see how much money she actually has (don't have a citation for that). If Forbes is having a bias against Madonna, then no, they should not be taken into account. We should look into this more. Zach 09:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To me it seems that Forbes is taking into account all the expenses necessary to make a profit, that Madonna cannot be said to have grossed this or that figure because she had expenses. This is simple accounting, not animosity or bias. Binksternet (talk) 09:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This all started from the NY Post which was quoting a fake web site. They tried to save face by removing it once it came to light. This is typical of The Post. It also helped with the stories published that she's now a "billionaire" who won't help her homeless brother. Sounds worse than writing "millionaire" in the headline, which suits the media just fine. She's not a billionaire. Partyclams (talk) 06:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Herein lies one of the core problesm with Wikipedia. It relies on verifiability and not the truth. Since there are more third party sources claiming the billionaire thing, I don't know what to say. Wikipedia will even say Jesus was born in moon, of enough third party reliable sources claim it is. You get the drift. LEt's see what others have to say. User:Status has explained that there are many flaws in the Forbes article also, and Forbes does have an agenda with her, hence I'm not that keen on accepting them as the sole resource for this claim. — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 06:11, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to say. Forbes also copies of websites like Wikipedia or Amazon. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 11:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * They're quoting the NY Post article, which sourced a fake web site. Forbes is THE web site. If they state the info is incorrect, it's incorrect. Wealth is their business, and they announce the richest celebs in the world each year. They're the ones who are always sourced for others. Forbes also broke down the figures. There's no way she's a millionaire. The NY Post is a tab rag anyway, so perhaps I should cut them some slack. They could have done actual research though. Partyclams (talk) 12:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not exactly a reliable source it would be when it is proved that and the said publication is seen to have an issue with the discussed subject previously. It is not untrue, just that its plain biased. Teh Forbes article, as User:Status pointed out, is mistake laden, so what is to say that their whole research is faulty as well? And NY Post being whatever it is your personal preference, not a place here. — Indian: BIO   · [ ChitChat ] 12:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, <font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  continuing in his arrogant tone without actually helping matters: "their research is folly," "mistake laden", "being whatever it is your personal preference". Yeah, you're really convincing in your arguments!! Here is Bloomberg's list of billionaires. The Sun, the source for our saying that Madonna crossed the billion mark in the intro, is notoriously inaccurate with their facts. Case in point: In the very same article, they say that she has a line of drinks out.--Aichik (talk) 18:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So please lecture me on how I should speak? Should I call everyone ageist now? —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 05:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

"Wealth is their business, and they announce the richest celebs in the world each year". Clearly is a Argumentum ad verecundiam and Argumentum ad antiquitatem. Forbes is a source "reliable", but also has capabilities to make mistakes (like everything in life) and copy of sites blogs and Wikipedia, also. MTV is a source specializing in the music industry, but also copy information from sites like Media Traffic (This site gives "alleged global sales" of albums every year; but when IFPI gives its official reports, the differences are many). One has to analyze each case separately and, in this specific case, the report of "Forbes" contains many misprints. Of course, all this is ambivalent, as there are "two truths". Why not include both versions of the information? Regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A great idea. Can you start it? Yes, Wikipedia is about letting readers decide for themselves. --Aichik (talk) 20:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding. Exactly, allow the readers to judge by themselves what to believe. We don’t have to act as judges of the information, we have to present both realities and let the readers decide what to think and what to do with both facts. Is our obligation as contributors and writers of Wikipedia to present information with all its sides and shades, and to be truthful; especially when it comes from reliable and trustworthy sources. This has already been added:,. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 02:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Aichik and Chrisonduras, the information was already added with both sides of the story presented by me and User:Copy editor. See here. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 05:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Madonna's current boyfriend, Brahim Zaibat
In the March 2013 issue of W magazine, Giovanna Battaglia revealed Madonna's current boyfriend, Brahim Zaibat, one of her backup dancers. One editor, a male one I might add, has dismissed this when I tried to add it claiming it's not an important information, even though all of Taylor Swift's 2-month-long relationships are listed. This is a clear example of ageism (whatever the Wiki code for that may be). Just because the mainstream media delves in it, does not mean Wikipedia should! With the listing of professional accomplishments and marriages, the Madonna article is quite dull and it makes her seem like a singing dancing machine. (Which she is to some extent but you know what I mean, what about the human side.) What does she sing about if not romance? Besides, nothing about her love life has been in the press since the divorce from Guy Richie, which was OVER FOUR YEARS AGO. Ageism. So listing awards and sales might feel impressive, the way this profile reads now she might as well be for a dull sports star. And a dull sports star she is not.--Aichik (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As Binsternet nicely put it, its a case of WP:RECENTISM, And Taylor's business is in her article. Including her flings like Brahim, JEsus Luz etc is clearly not a good way of writing and is clearly unnecessary. Also, please stop this bullshit about ageism and tone down your wording like "a male one" etc. You are borderline making personal attacks. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 06:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a well-written article unlike the Taylor Swift one. Only major themes of Madonna's very complex life and career are introduced. There is no need to talk about ephemeral and minor details such as which boyfriend is the current one, unless there is a big deal made about it throughout the media, which is not the case here. Binksternet (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that jab at the Swift article. The article is generally written well but there is one weak section made of just one paragraph listing Swift's relationships. The paragraph does not say anything about Swift herself, just who she dated. The big difference between the Swift article and this bit about a dancer boyfriend of Madonna's is that every boyfriend listed on Swift's page is already famous. If Madonna suddenly started dating a famous new boyfriend then I'm sure there would be many accounts of it written in the media, and we would then list the guy here. Better still is to tell the reader how the relationship affected those involved—make it encyclopedic. Binksternet (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

What about your tone, IndianBio? Hold up the mirror to your own language. Ageism is a real phenomena, you can't discount it or wish it away by saying it's bullshit, and with that bullying kind of language you perpetuate it. Binksternet, um, last time, I checked, the Taylor Swift article was considered a good article. You are letting your own bias taint your editing and should perhaps take a break from this article. Who are you to say Brahim is not an important boyfriend? I work in media so I know that that kind of information has to be cleared on a couple of levels: Madonna herself most likely doesn't want to embarrass herself with some one-night-stand type. Put yourself in other people's shoes!--38.98.107.82 (talk) 14:59, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I reverted your addition again, as nobody here has spoken up for its inclusion except you, and two editors have spoken against it. You must achieve consensus here for its inclusion.
 * My arguments continue to be that the bit is not important to Madonna's life and career, that it needs to have more media coverage, that it needs to be given more notice, that Brahim Zaibat should be named repeatedly before we include him. Binksternet (talk) 15:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Aichik, caling an user ageist is broderline making personal attacks when Binsternet has clearly notified that the information is WP:UNDUE and WP:RECENTISM. And are you Madonna's manager or someone from her inside circle that you know what she would want or not? Stop adding a content which others have opposed and have given reasons why it cannot be done through Wikipedia policies and guidelines. And another thing, don't bring that tone with which you spoke at the Knowles talk page, I will have none of it. Consider this a cute warning. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 15:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No, <font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  I won't stop adding content that you personally don't approve of. This is Wikipedia. And don't bring up a tone I demonstrated in frustration a month and a half ago; you're acting like a cantankerous husband.--Aichik (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't here to list everyone she dates; I believe there is a website for that. If the relationship has relevancy, it should be included. Do we know when they began dating, even? <font face="Old English Text MT" size="3em"><span title="It's Status, just in case you were wondering..." style="color:black;cursor:progress;">Zach 00:17, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I wasn't listing all of her boyfriends, stop exaggerating. Just the most recent and significant one. Come on, no reportage of anything for FOUR YEARS since her divorce.--Aichik (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You reverted inspite of other users opposing you. This is disruptive editing, and you better stop that. And what is the significance of ZAibat as a boyfriend/man in her life? This is completely bullshit and WP:OR. You either prove his relevancy else stop reversion. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 05:58, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Nopes, Brahim Zaibat is a dancer on her MDNE Tore. That's all, I think he should be listed on the tour page. Butthen again, we are all ageist, so we don't care. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 04:03, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, especially in that tone: he's "Nopes", "That's all," "we are all ageist, so we don't care", IndianBio? You think you can bully your way to your point? No, don't answer that please.--Aichik (talk) 20:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no call for any more insulting comments here from anybody at all, period. This is a talk page for discussing the talk page only. Binksternet (talk) 22:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Now that everyone's had a chance to come down from their mountains, look at how Leonardo DiCaprio and Cameron Diaz, both also have their love lives completely chronicled and neither have married even once.--Aichik (talk) 13:49, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I will be convinced by more media coverage of the boyfriend, not by more Wikipedia examples. Binksternet (talk) 14:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Again Aichik, Di Caprio and Diaz's businesses in their own article and not here. As Bink said, you have still failed to provide third party encyclopedic coverage regarding this Brahim Zaibat, irrespective of whether Madonna was married or not. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 14:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Why not, Bink. There's ton more media coverage of Miley Cyrus's ongoing engagement, so that to you is more worthy to be in Wikipedia than Madonna's latest boyfriend? Or are you doubting the source. Spell it out: I can't read your mind. IndianBio, don't flash "encyclopedic" at me like you're rational and I'm not. You know there are tons of miscellaneous things in this article that wouldn't make the cut in an actual Encyclopedia Britannica. Let's wait for some more people to comment before you guys try to close the case immediately, thanks.--Aichik (talk) 00:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Daily Mail last November He's French and gets on with her kids.
 * Entertainment Tonight He walked the Jeremy Scott show, they have been dating for two years.
 * Huffington Post in February He's been signed to IMG Models, has been dating her for two years.

I had never been through this discussion and me it catches the attention now. I've seen in several good and featured articles sections as "Public image"/"Stage and alter ego" (Beyoncé Knowles, Kylie Minogue, Rihanna) or example much greater: Michael Jackson with several separate articles that talk about their live (Michael Jackson's health and appearance or Personal relationships of Michael Jackson). I don't know how if these sections or even articles are of encyclopedic relevance. The most logical is yes, but then I am surprised with Madonna that there are no such sections.

With more than three decade career, Madonna has received much media attention as Michael Jackson, who is 'Global Outreach (more, more and more than artists like Beyoncé, Minogue or other) with inclusions in lists of "gossip" as "The celebrity" ... etc, sex symbol, fashion icon... etc. Even, her diets, her relationship to the Kabbalah, her arms, her relationships (many of whom are artists or characters of the show business) all this has had a very extensive documentation by global media. My question Why not create a separate articles to talk about all this?. Regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 00:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * @Aichik, maintain civility please and then reply. Those are just flash-in-the-pan mentions, not worthy of adding anything about this person. In Madonna's article I can see a pattern that only relationships directly influencing her life, career or anything has been mentioned, and also which are covered in books, journals etc, like Tony Ward, Sean Penn, Warren Beatty, Guy etc. I still don't see any such notability regarding this person. Before him, I found out that Madonna was dating someone called Jesus Luz, well even that person had a better coverage than this one (in terms of nude pics, modelling etc etc). Oh and believe it or not, the moment Madonna herself would have said anything about Zaibat and how she feels about it, the coverage would shoot up like a rocket, but she has been mum about it.
 * @Chris, you are right that there are articles in WP which explain the personal life in detail and separately. And yes I do agree every tiny atom of Madonna's life is scrutinized and covered. But the question begets, are they all encyclopedic? Those stupid talks about Madonna's arms, her Malawi diva behavior, her boyfriend hopping are downright violation of WP:BASICHUMANDIGNITY and I will never support such addition. Coming to the MJ examples you put up. Well taking a case-by-case analysis, regarding MJ we all know what happened. The man's musical endeavors were forgotten in face of the terrible legal battles over the molestation cases and the neverland thing and the chimpanzee etc. So those ultimately took precedence over his Life and career, resulting them having the notability to exist as separate articles, sections etc. That has never been the case for Madonna. Her relationships never took precedence over her controversies, which have always been through her music, art, imagery etc. My point is why give precedence to something that is of no notability at present? She has dated countless men throughout her years, why this one should be suddenly mentioned? —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 03:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * IndianBio, you're continuing in your stubbornness, and it's silly. Chrishonduras just listed a way of including that information, and related (including Jesus Luz), which you yourself admit has gotten more coverage. Cameron Diaz and Leonardo DiCaprio have shorter bios on here and somehow merit more of that detail in their main articles? This is Wikipedia, not your personal Madonna fan tribute site. Let's wait for other opinions like I already said, then incorporate it. --Aichik (talk) 15:37, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * You still miss the point that although they received coverage, they are not notable enough to be included in a bio. And check that tone before accusing me of Madonna fancruft. You know where the ANI is and the thread is still open. Except for using WP:WAX as arguments you still haven't provided any valid reason as to why the content is notable. And I have responded to Chris' assertions equally placing my points on a stronger note. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 16:07, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Expatriate
Since her divorce, Madonna is on record saying that her homebase in now New York City, it is no longer the UK. Do we still keep the expatriate category for her? Partyclams (talk) 05:18, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point, all her businesses seem to be stemming from here (and I think she's glad to be out of Elton John's orbit, ha). Lay out some references out for everyone to see here, then do it!--Aichik (talk) 18:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed true, however, the category itself states it is for "Americans who have lived in or visited (for an extended period of time) the UK." Madonna spent a lot of her years in the UK, and I believe that most of her companies are even based there. <font face="Arial" size="2em"> — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 02:16, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ya I'm kinda mixed about this, the definition of the category does deem it for people who have stayed there also. What do you guys say? Keep it or remove? —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 03:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I say keep it, per the premise of the category. It doesn't say "Americans who currently live in the UK". <font face="Arial" size="2em"> — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 22:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Infobox photo (again)
I've recently uploaded photos taken during her MDNA Tour gigs in France (Olympia showcase and Nice concert) by a Belgian fan and photographer. Although they can't be used yet (they're still waiting for final OTRS approval), perhaps we could pick one that would fit for the infobox. Amzer (talk) 22:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info. I checked them out. They are quite high resolution ones so nice. If and when they are confirmed from OTRS, I think the following can be considered for the infobox: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Some of them are pretty iconic. Let's see what others have to say also, and we can maybe ask the touch-up team to smooth the edges and the sweat on Madonna's face a little, and we are good to go. It is about time this pic is changed. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 03:42, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Those pictures are very good! But we still have to wait for the OTRS verification--LuxiromChick (talk) 14:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think that photos #3 and #5 would fit best. Amzer (talk) 10:51, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The OTRS permissions have been confirmed! we can start using the pictures--LuxiromChick (talk) 17:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

The only photograph I'd use is #6. It's the nicest and most flattering one. Israell (talk) 14:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can we come to a consensus on this? I'm fine with using #6. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 01:06, 2 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Personally I would prefer using one that focuses more on her face (this one, this one, this one or this one), but if the consensus comes down to number 6 I would have no problem--LuxiromChick (talk) 15:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * No. 6 looks good for me. Amzer (talk) 11:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Guys last choice, what about 7? I think this is much more flattering than 6 because the face is not awkward. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 14:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey IndianBio, how about we use the one you uploaded as the book image???--LuxiromChick (talk) 19:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * No, its just too serious. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 19:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * :/ Ok then, we should come to a consensus, I still prefer file 19 but number 7 is also fine with me--LuxiromChick (talk) 21:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * File number 7 looks good.  Jorn  <sup style="font-family:Calibri; color:black;">talk 23:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Fellow editors, Madonna's armpit in pic #7 looks waaay too veiny... Come on! In pics #1, 3 and 5 (especially!!!) her neck looks waaay too veiny & skinny... Come on! You really wanna select any of those???

Mo looks quite older in pic #2... I'd never select it. M's armpit looks much better in pic #6 in which her face looks really nice & young. Pic #4 is okay but M's face looks smoother in #6 but a bit too pale.

Pic #8 is HOT as HELL, her face in it has a nice complexion, doesn't look as pale as it does in #6, the messy hair adds some drama but #8 shows lots of cleavage and part of a nipple; some might find it too sexy.

I'd still go with #6. Israell (talk) 23:23, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * This one is also very nice IMO.--LuxiromChick (talk) 00:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Umm Israel, the armpit is not scary anymore like #6 you pointed. And the way too veiny stuff can be edited out a little, I personally did that. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 03:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


 * For God's sake, can we finally decide which photo will be used? As far as I'm concerned, #4 and #7 would fit best for the infobox but it will need a bit of photoshopping (does that word even exist?) for her arms and sweat. For the French pages, I used #3 for her filmography page and #5 for her article. Amzer (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hehe, calm down. Fine I will use #7 and photoshop it ok? Hope no one has any other question? —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 14:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry if my message looked rude, it wasn't meant on purpose . Amzer (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey Amzer, I tried at editing the pic and here it is. Can you take a look and see if its fine? If its fine I will change the infobox image. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 15:48, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that it looks good but I also found this one that you cropped : #1. It would be better according to me but I don't mind using the other one. Amzer (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

(→) The only reason I did not want to use it because Madonna's face appears too stern and severe in it. Fine, I will change the infobox image since the consensus says so. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 16:39, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

"Characterized" as rape?
"she was dragged up an alleyway by a pair of men at knifepoint and forced to perform fellatio.[18] Madonna characterized the attack as rape;"

It seems strange to say she "characterized" the attack as rape - isn't that what it actually was? See Rape. --Chriswaterguy talk 17:31, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Laws in effect at the time and place of the crime defined rape only as penetration. The technical crime would have been sexual assault. Binksternet (talk) 17:44, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

That Photo
I'm not a wikipedian but, God almighty, that photo is atrocious. This is one of the most famous people on the planet and her article on one of the world's most used websites is five years out of date. Please change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.252.65 (talk) 21:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I've uploaded photos from her last tour and we're currently deciding which one we'll pick. Feel free to pick one. Amzer (talk) 14:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (May 2013)
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 19:08, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna Ciccone – She is always referred as "Madonna" by many sources. However, should natural disambiguation overcome parenthetical one? Cassie Ventura is called "Cassie", but the title is still "Cassie Ventura" instead of (no longer) "Cassie (singer)". Brandy Norwood is called "Brandy", but title is always still "Brandy Norwood" instead of "Brandy (singer)". Why won't we give "Madonna" a proposed surname (or a birth name, Madonna Louise Ciccone? George Ho (talk) 17:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Oppose, per "do not use obscure names". Apteva (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Obscure or not, a singer who is called only by first names is always disambiguated by surnames. Why is "Brandy Norwood" an all right title, while "Madonna Ciccone" is not? --George Ho (talk) 17:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Who? I never have heard of Brandy Norwood (or Brandy or Bran'Nu); or the name Ciccone until very recently. I have heard of Madonna, but only as "Madonna". Apteva (talk) 20:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As I realized right now, familiarity is not a strong criterion for primacy. Sure, typing parenthetical disambiguation is easy for me, especially when AutoComplete is used, but, implicitly, parenthetical disambiguation for this "entertainer" (or "singer") is discouraged because 1) natural disambiguation is available ("Madonna Ciccone") and 2) not all users know or care about how to type in parenthetical disambiguation. (Does anybody comprehensively type in always either "Madonna (entertainer)", "Madonna (artist)", or "Madonna (singer)"?) How is "Madonna (entertainer)" preferable to "Madonna Ciccone"? --George Ho (talk) 23:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Most people get to articles by clicking on links. We have a link from Madonna if anyone does get there, but most people arrive directly at the article they are looking for, regardless of the title. Apteva (talk) 03:14, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Madonna (entertainer) has been viewed 1,039,540 times in the last 90 days.
 * Madonna (art) has been viewed 50,530 times in the last 90 days.
 * Madonna has been viewed 94,926 times in the last 90 days.
 * The "Madonna" disambiguation page will change if this article is renamed. --George Ho (talk) 03:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak Support - mainly because the print-sources purist in me would prefer anything to the awful cloying "(entertainer)" for a Madonna (singer) (as per Google Books) who also made a couple of films. Apart from this "Madonna Ciccone" is also more serious-encyclopedic. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. What? Many people don't even know what her last name. How does this help the project? <font face="Arial" size="2em"> — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 03:10, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The different is Brandy Norwood sometimes goes by just that, same with Cassie Ventura. Madonna is, and always will be, Madonna. That's what people know her by. Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 03:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * From WP:Naming conventions (people): "Similarly, don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used." Her first name is Madonna; it's neither a pseudonymous name nor a pen name. "Madonna Ciccone" is found in Google News, not to mention current news. "Ciccone" is "fairly often" added beside "Madonna". --George Ho (talk) 03:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC) Also, "Madonna Ciccone" is used by books (extensive results). --George Ho (talk) 03:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting... her full name is used in biographies! How rare! That doesn't prove anything. Show me a news article (that isn't from the 80s) that calls her Madonna Ciccone please (or about legal documents, of course they'd use her full name). She is known commonly by simply Madonna. Beyonce is also known with Knowles. Cassie with Ventura, and Brandy with Norwood. <font face="Arial" size="2em"> — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 03:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * From this year: Sina, LA Review of Books, and Express. Also, 1995, 2009, 2008, 2012, 2011. --George Ho (talk) 04:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC) I did not see expanded message. But answer this, as I already asked someone else: how is "Madonna (entertainer)" preferable to "Madonna Ciccone" if the article is currently NOT "Madonna"? --George Ho (talk) 04:07, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME: "Lady Gaga (not: Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta)". Anyway, if Brandy Norwood is there it is because "This is her name ("2008"). Go an open a RM there, there is no reason to use her last name. The only real place this page may go is at Madonna, and it won't be moved there in a while. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  04:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "Lady Gaga" is a pseudonymous name (or pen name or stage name), different from her birth name. "Madonna" is not just a stage name, but also the first name of the entertainer's birth name and partial natural name. --George Ho (talk) 07:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Besides the full name's obscurity, why else is typing "Madonna (entertainer)" or "Madonna (singer)" easier than "Madonna Ciccone" without the help of AutoComplete? Obscurity of the name shouldn't make the natural disambiguation less plausible or less likely. No sources have used "madonna (entertainer)" or "madonna (singer)". Man, I'm using the same tactics that other user in Talk:Apu Nahasapeemapetilon did. Speaking of "Nahasapeemapetilon", I did propose that article to be renamed "Apu (The Simpsons)", but, despite obscurity of Apu's surname, that ended in failure. Even "Ciccone" is easier to remember and type than Apu's surname. --George Ho (talk) 08:53, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME, Madonna is simply known worldwide as Madonna and will remain so. She might be moved to the page Madonna someday, but no ways to Madonna Ciccone. This move request feels like completely unnecessary. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 05:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * How is "Ciccone" more unnecessary than "(entertainer)"? --George Ho (talk) 05:08, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * She is  an entertainer. So that dab is fine unless it is the primary topic. However adding a surname by which she is clearly not known and which she dropped long back, is unnecessary and will be never done. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 05:32, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * To put it another way, this is a person, not a film or any other non-person topic. Why is parenthetical disambiguation preferred over natural one? Why else should she be disambiguated by parenthetical word/phrase instead of a surname? --George Ho (talk) 06:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Because Madonna, mother of Jesus takes precedence over Madonna the well-known entertainer. Hence adding entertainer is fine, however adding a surname by which she is not known is simply bad edit and move. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 07:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If her surname is not known, why have sources used her full name over the years? --George Ho (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Sources haven't used her full name, except a minor few, and except for legal documents she's associated with. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 07:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Madonna Ciccone 4 results Madonna 148,000 results. 148,000 is more than slightly more than 4, even when it boils down to actually 306. 4 out of 306 is very obscure. Throw out the 10% that are not for the singer and it is still obscure. Apteva (talk) 08:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. The current title implies that the subject is not well-known enough to assume that the reader will recognize "Madonna" as the name of an entertainer. In that case, she should certainly get her full name. Use parenthetical disambiguation only, "if natural disambiguation is not possible," per WP:NATURAL. Kauffner (talk) 06:24, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * From where did you even deduce that theory may I ask? The wiki statistics shows for itself. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 07:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Stats do not matter as much as integrity and naturality of the title itself. In other words, let's keep the stats out for now. --George Ho (talk) 07:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's bullcrap. Obviously stats matter, if it was the case of integrity and naturality, then this would have been renamed to Madonna. Let's face it, she is alive and kicking unlike the other 2000 year old virgin. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 07:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Usage does not overcome long-term significance, and neither does for the other way around. The "2000 year old virgin" has been studied and worshipped over 2000 years, while the "alive and kicking"... let's say that this case is more complex than the "Anne Hathaway" situation. --George Ho (talk) 08:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no long-term significance. She's not known as Madonna Ciccone, she's known as Madonna. Now the virgin is more known than her, hence the entertainer dab. Pretty effing simple. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 08:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Brandy Norwood is known as Brandy, yet the article is still titled Brandy Norwood, even if full name is obscure. --George Ho (talk) 08:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * And again, open an RM there. I gave you the reason why it is titled this way, a poor reason BTW. There was no consensus to move "Brandy (singer) to Norwood, but somebody did it. Brandy's is trivial here. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  23:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

(→) She is called in media with both her singluar as well as surname also, Madonna is not. She is known everywhere as Madonna only. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 11:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That may be, but only Wiki calls her Madonnna (entertainer). Kauffner (talk) 14:00, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, that is the article title, but I read it as Wikipedia calls her "Madonna", and uses (entertainer) to distinguish between another article of that name. We make the title bold in the lead sentence and use Madonna there, instead of Madonna (entertainer). Parenthetical disambiguators are part of the title, but not part of the name. Apteva (talk) 17:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Unfamiliarity of, scarce usage of, and disdain toward the whole name should not be mere reasons to oppose the move. Of course, I hope you have other reasons to oppose it. --George Ho (talk) 11:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * My oppose still stands and its valid. So you can quit addressing it with your reasonings, and if you address it, do it based on policy. None of thse "Unfamiliarity of, scarce usage of, and disdain " stuff please. And without using WP:WAX when that has been nullified. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 11:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, people have cited articles for Brandy Norwood and Beyoncé Knowles as reasons for why Madonna's article should be named Madonna Ciccone. Yet Brandy and Beyoncé are referred to along with their second names in the media quite a lot. Madonna is rarely referred to as Madonna Ciccone. Per the naming conventions, Madonna is the least ambiguous in this case and thus Madonna (entertainer) is the best name for the article. &mdash;  Lil_ ℧ niquℇ № 1  <sup style="color:black;">[talk]  09:08, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Which part of "WP:Naming conventions (people)"? --George Ho (talk) 11:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * George, please read here and the explanation. AGain, based on policy. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 12:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, while her real name is Madonna Ciccone, her official artist name is just "Madonna", and she's best known by that name. I'm sure there are many Madonna fans who don't even know her real surname. <font color="#CC0000">J <font color="#00CC00">I <font color="#0000CC">P &#124; Talk 13:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I would quote policy but my reasoning is more in the realm of personal preference. I think the only Madonna disambiguation should be a parenthesis because her birth surname Ciccone is not the one she has used for decades. Instead, she has used no surname. Giving her a surname is the job of choosing something she has not used: her birth surname was never a vehicle for fame, the name to be abandoned later. She never took the surname of any of her husbands, so Penn and Ritchie are out, etc. In the past I have voted against moving this article to Madonna with no disambiguation, but if I were forced to choose between Madonna Ciccone and Madonna, I would choose the latter. I think the parentheses works well enough. Binksternet (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction: She did take Ritchie's name apparently, although there isn't much information about it. I believe there's some legal paper that mentions it. I don't believe it was never acknowledged though. <font face="Arial" size="2em"> — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 22:48, 9 May 2013 (UTC)hh
 * Oppose; Madonna has dropped her surname for virtually all public-facing purposes. Powers T 23:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Articles for Rihanna, Kesha & Adele follow the same mononym pattern 'cause those singers are single-named performing artists. Wikipedia articles on Drake & Madonna require disambiguation (entertainer) because of other articles named similarly. Israell (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:NATURAL disambiguation guidelines. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Natural disambiguation rarely used in sources should not be favored over clear parenthetic disambiguation. --B2C 17:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. She is known as Madonna and most of the time, her name is given as an additional information. And although it was already said earlier, Rihanna's page isn't "Robyn Rihanna Fenty" but simply Rihanna. Amzer (talk) 18:01, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support a move to just Madonna. She is clearly the primary topic. Unreal7 (talk) 11:06, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

I almost forgot to mention: prior requests to simply title this article into "Madonna" have failed over the years. Look at the history log of failures. Why requesting a rename to just "Madonna" (without disambiguation) again when it has failed and will fail again? --George Ho (talk) 07:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Ummm, who's requesting the single name page title? —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 07:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Date formats
Does anybody particularly care which date format we use for the references in this article? They need to be consistent, and I used a script to tidy them to mdy format. I don't much care if there's a strong consensus to use a different format, but it should be consistent. --John (talk) 17:43, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Having a variety of date formats looks a bit rubbish, especially on a Good Article. If it's really important to you I can standardise on ISO dates. Is it? --John (talk) 18:32, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If you can do the yyyy-mm-dd format, it would be appreciated, else i will manually change to the existing format, all of them and you reverted the removal of Daily recford sources. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 18:39, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Tabloids as sources
Per WP:BLPSOURCES, we cannot use tabloid sources like the Daily Record on this article, or any other on a living person. Please do not add or restore any such. They will be removed and your editing privileges may be jeopardised. --John (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If you have to remove sources, then remove them and I do agree that sources which are tabloidy should be removed, but don't change an existing date format without having a consensus. I have reverted your edit. If you want to remove the tabloids, then please be my guest. No one asked for a script assisted change when the Madonna articles all use the yyyy-mm-dd format. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 18:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Autochthony writes: Madonna is a star. The article - at 1832 Z 05 August 2013 - also lists her as a philanthropist; I don't doubt it, but saw nothing that hinted at that in the article. Can some one give evidence, here, of the lady's good works, please? Thanks. Autochthony wrote at 1837 Z 05 August 2103. 86.163.100.37 (talk) 18:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Eliminate Call-Out Boxes
The call-out boxes on the sides, with the quotes, should be eliminated. This is an encyclopedia entry, not the notes to her latest album or a vanity spread in People. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.161.35.73 (talk) 02:02, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No they should not be. The featured article review kept it. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 14:20, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Personal Life
This article needs it's Personal Life section back. Please see discussion here -  thewolfchild   01:34, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You talk as if there's already a consensus on it, which it is not. Kww has challenged your proposition and I agree with his points. No need for a personal life section. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 08:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I wrote nothing that would indicate there is consensus on this, so your comment is somewhat disingenuous and inflammatory. I posted my opinion, (which is not consensus), along with a link to a discussion on the subject. Your opinion is noted, but on it's own, is not consensus either. -  thewolfchild   17:51, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that a "personal life" section is essential to a WP biography when their personal life has been well documented, ie. marriages, children, travels, philosophies, religion, personal problems, etc. My guess is that most readers come to read about the person, aka "bio," and not an extended annotated discography. Note a similar discussion about how Peter Sellers' personal life was similarly shredded and put into the trivia broth of his article. I see a similar heading style in that one with paragraphs of little more than strings of disconnected career trivia and a massive article, more an annotated, chronological filmography, or triviography, IMO. I see all the same anti-bio problems here. --Light show (talk) 21:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

(singer)
I was surprised to see that among the 7 RMs no-one has proposed (singer) as meeting WP:AT 2. Naturalness "..actually called" for this article. Google Books:
 * "the singer Madonna" = 3,520
 * "the entertainer Madonna" = 50
 * "American singer Madonna" = 383
 * "American entertainer Madonna" = 0 (excluding Wikipedia content)
 * In ictu oculi (talk) 06:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Also surprised to see that this was an undiscussed move. (cur | prev) 15:00, 12 July 2006‎ Hotwiki (talk | contribs)‎ . . (35 bytes) (+35)‎ . . (moved Madonna (singer) to Madonna (entertainer)) no discussion on Talk page archive or elsewhere.
 * Objections were not raised until 6 months later. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move September 2013
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Well-intended proposal executed badly, despite two "supports". George Ho (talk) 15:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Madonna (entertainer) → ? – Now out with proposals to make this comtemporary person the primary topic and to use surname. This time, due to hooplah about improper use of "(entertainer)", shall we call her the "(singer)" or the "(musician)"? "Actress" is out of question, as her acting abilities are limited at best, and her film appearances are not as notable as her albums. George Ho (talk) 18:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The current article title works fine. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose – The dab is fine as it is and really encompasses the person she is. No need to move and on a side-note, you need to seriously stop crapping up these move requests. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 19:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Something wrong with the way I do? --George Ho (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, faulty RMs. It's irritating now. Did you go though the zillions of old RMs posted above and frame your request different from them? I don't see it, all I can see is a requested where no justifiable reason has been given for moving into any of the other dabs mentioned. I would even go to say to withdraw it. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 19:39, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't need to explain further why she may not qualify as "entertainer", do I? I already mentioned her "acting" skills. As for her other occupancies, I've always known her as a musician/singer. That's all. --George Ho (talk) 19:55, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * George, actors do not have to meet your approval to be notable as actors. Madonna has continued to act from time to time in the 2000s, especially as a voice actor in Arthur and the Invisibles in 2006. Regarding your time-wasting move requests, I think you are too trigger-happy. You should consider the price the community pays each time you initiate a community process. Binksternet (talk) 20:38, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, Madonna's lack of ability as an actor does not mean that she is not actor any more than William Hung's lack of ability mean that he is not a singer. A bad actor is still an actor.--64.229.164.69 (talk) 03:00, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, this is the fourth RM in the year and nothing has changed. Yes "(entertainer)" is not a good label, but labelling her as a "bad actress" is a WP:NPOV violation and irrelevant to this RM or any other page. Unless something extraordinary happens to move this page to Madonna or Madonna (disambiguator) it is enough of RMs for this year and the next one. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  04:10, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In response, I stroke my comments about her acting as "irrelevant", like you said. Let's move on then... --George Ho (talk) 04:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support move to Madonna (singer), or to just plain Madonna. Far too many celebs on Wiki have the disambiguator "(entertainer)", often because the title of this article is being used a model. On Highbeam for the last two years, I get 135 results for "Madonna entertainer", 745 for "Madonna actress", 810 for "Madonna actor", and 1,979 for "Madonna singer". Looking at the results, I don't actually see Madonna being referred to as an actor or actress at all. The actor being referred to is usually Sean Penn or someone else she is with. 128.204.196.75 (talk) 07:22, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Article titles:


 * In ictu oculi (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Which disambiguator? --George Ho (talk) 15:44, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support "singer," or better yet, "Madonna." The word "entertainer" is practically meaningless in a 21st century pop culture society. The term originally referred to anyone, including "vaudeville singers, actors, dancers, slap-stick comedians, or even magicians, but seems almost ridiculous for a modern singer's description. FWIW, "Madonna singer" vs. "Madonna entertainer," 33 to 1, or 97%, on Google--Light show (talk) 16:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Is there any significant potential for anyone with even partially malfunctioning cluefulness to be confused? older ≠ wiser 17:44, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Bkonrad. WP:CRITERIA 1 is not the only criteria, we also should consider WP:CRITERIA 2, 3 and 5. Even on WP:CRITERIA 1 WP:Principle of least astonishment still applies. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:57, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In ictu oculi, sorry, but I don't see how those criteria are especially relevant here. She IS an entertainer and not only a singer. In fact, I'd argue her talents are primarily as a performer, rather than strictly singing ability. I see no difference whatsoever in precision. And no evidence has been presented in this discussion with regards to consistency. older ≠ wiser 19:03, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the WP:AT criteria are always relevant to any article title. WP:CRITERIA 1. RECOGNIZABILITY we have discussed, and I respectfully consider that WP:Principle of least astonishment still applies.
 * As far as the other:
 * WP:CRITERIA 2. NATURALNESS = "Madonna singer" vs. "Madonna entertainer," 33 to 1
 * WP:CRITERIA 3. PRECISION = (singer) is more precise than Category:Entertainers which also includes ► Acrobats‎ (29 P) ► Actors‎ (30 C, 4 P) ► Actresses‎ (21 C, 1 P) ► Beauty pageant contestants‎ (12 C, 8 P) ► Blackface minstrel performers‎ (81 P) ► Burlesque performers‎ (1 C, 81 P) ► Buskers‎ (14 C, 7 P) ► Children's entertainers‎ (7 C, 2 P) ► Circus performers‎ (12 C, 53 P) ► Clowns‎ (6 C, 20 P) ► Comedians‎ (23 C, 3 P) ► Contortionists‎ (17 P) ► Dancers‎ (33 C, 26 P) ► Flatulists‎ (4 P) ► Hypnotists‎ (1 C, 51 P) ► Idol stars‎ (3 C, 3 P) ► Impressionists (entertainers)‎ (2 C, 17 P) ► Jesters‎ (2 C, 32 P)  ► Kabarettists‎ (38 P) ► Magicians‎ (9 C, 16 P) ► Masters of Ceremonies‎ (27 P) ► Mimes‎ (1 C, 85 P) ► Music hall performers‎ (147 P) ► Musicians‎ (56 C, 6 P) ► Parodists‎ (1 C, 20 P) ► Psychics‎ (2 C, 12 P) ► Storytellers‎ (6 C, 29 P) ► Stunt performers‎ (5 C, 76 P, 1 F) ► Television presenters‎ (13 C, 8 P) ► Trick shot artists‎ (20 P) ► Vaudeville performers‎ (1,074 P) ► Ventriloquists‎ (69 P).
 * WP:CRITERIA 5. CONSISTENCY = Category:American singers - a significant proportion have also acted but only Madonna and Usher (entertainer) and Eve (entertainer) are counted in the (entertainer) class. All 3 fail WP:CRITERIA 5.
 * If the 2006 move from Madonna (singer) to Madonna (entertainer) had been put to RM, would WP:CRITERIA have supported such a move? In ictu oculi (talk) 20:00, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for putting forth some supporting evidence; simply pointing to criteria as if their applicability is self-evident is not very helpful. What is the basis for 33 to 1 claim regarding "Madonna entertainer" vs. "Madonna entertainer"? To be honest, I don't have that much of a problem with (singer), though the proposed move seems rather confused. I just don't really see that there is anything so seriously wrong with (entertainer). older ≠ wiser 20:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure. User:Light show said 33 to 1 in Google. I got 70:1 in Google Books (as above).
 * I have no problem with (entertainer) when the numbers in books are better than 70:1. But that tends only to be the case for traditional variety/burlesque/Las Vegas entertainers. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @Bkonrad: This subject is universally known. So no, I doubt anyone is confused by the title. But this case is still important is a model. Perhaps a move will help control the urge add "(entertainer)" indiscriminately to the titles of celeb biographies. The Highbeam numbers I gave above yield a singer-to-entertainer ratio of 15:1. 118.68.75.228 (talk) 03:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, but I don't see any hugely significant benefit to renaming this page and I see no significant downside to leaving the title as it is. older ≠ wiser 14:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose the plain name. No objection to "singer" but fine with the current name. Johnbod (talk) 18:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for "Madonna (singer)". 95% of Madonna's "entertainer" work comes from her being a singer - it's far and away what she is best known as and what people associate her with - so why not just call her that? --<font color="#CC0O66">Loeba (talk) 21:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment it should not be just plain "Madonna", which should either be a disambiguation page, or link directly to Mary mother of God. -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 05:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: It's unecessary. I don't have a problem with "singer" but she isn't just a singer and "entertainer" is sufficiently generic and neutral to accurately describe her. Anglicanus (talk) 05:42, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * , out of interest if the article was at (singer) would you support a move to (entertainer)? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course. Madonna is a dancer, a singer, an actor and a businesswoman. Binksternet (talk) 09:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would support a move from "singer" to "entertainer" as being more accurate but I also wouldn't think that it was too much of an issue. Anglicanus (talk) 15:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, using this proposal arguments: "Allow "(entertainer)" whenever a person is notable for more than one area of entertainment [and/or] when a person is notable for only one area of entertainment." She is widely known as singer, but she is also known as an actress, and has been recognized as such multiple times, didn't she win a Golden Globe Award for Best Actress? The only realistic move is to move the page to "Madonna", but there is another Madonna page that conflicts with this (Madonna (art)), and even though this article gets the hits, the fact that people searching "Madonna" are searching this article, it is the typical argument I have had with you in the past: we don't care about majorities, we care about "ambiguousness". Britannica style is much better than Wikipedia's, they do care to avoid ambiguity. To summarize, "entartainer" is a neologism, and even very few or none references label her as such, it is a neutral term in spite of calling her a "(singer)" or "(actress)", majorities don't care in this case. Also a move to a plain Madonna is a "recentism" in comparison with the c. 2,000 years of Mary in art. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  16:10, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tbhotch, have you seen the late 2002 short film called Star? Clive Owens drives a BMW like a madman with Madonna in the back seat. Funny stuff. Binksternet (talk) 16:42, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose&mdash;enough with beating a dead horse. She's done enough to be considered an entertainer, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Wikipedian Penguin 11:21, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but how exactly is having the first discussion on the 2006 undiscussed move from (singer) to (entertainer) 7 years after the move "beating a dead horse." Would someone please make a case for (singer) to (entertainer) based on WP:Article Title guidelines. Since this article and its title are messing up titling for other articles too. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I meant that that these RMs are unhelpful since consensus has been that "Madonna (entertainer)" is the most suitable title for the article, as evidenced by the several previous discussions. Her work is diverse enough that she can be considered as such. The Wikipedian Penguin 15:42, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see that, in fact I see the opposite. The 1st RM was (entertainer)/(performer) but the 6 last RMs are about mononym status vs. Virgin Mary. In 4 of those 6 RMs concern about the (entertainer) was expressed. I honestly don't believe that if this was now at Madonna (singer) where 90% of Google Books are, we'd be having an RM to elevate from (singer) to (entertainer). I have also to say that comments within this RM have reinforced the impression that for some editors (entertainer) carries and element of status to raise singers who are "entertainers" above the heads of the rest of Category:American singers. WP:DAB says that disambiguators are not to be "unique", this isn't unique since Eve (entertainer) and Usher (entertainer) have also been raised to (entertainer) status, but it is still novel, fails WP:CRITERIA 5 on consistency, and is a neologism in this sense. It's almost as if we're hyping Madonna as Madonna (more than just a singer). It isn't encyclopedic language either in intent or effect. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:TITLECHANGES.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 18:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The current title is apt, accurate and appropriate. I also support WP:TITLECHANGES. Scottyoak2 (talk) 01:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Move for early close - the RM is a complete mess and the nom hasn't indicated the proposal. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, SNOW close, please. Binksternet (talk) 15:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Allow anonymous and new editors to edit this page?
Sure, the above proposal was badly done. In effort to make up my mistake, I propose that all users be allowed to edit this article under one condition: pending changes by anonymous and new editors must be reviewed and then either accepted or rejected. I tried requesting it in the administrator's talk page, but wants a consensus first. Three years passed, and I feel that everyone should be allowed to edit. With semi-protection in the way, I see edits becoming less frequent recently. --George Ho (talk) 15:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I oppose any kind of unprotection, because even semi-protected recieves vandalism. Last time we PC protected it was a mess. Although some edits were accepted, it didn't worth it overall. I'd support it if the frequency of IPs requesting an edit or requesting to edit were higher, but I don't see that frequency here or in the archives. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  16:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tbhotch says it best. Keep protection. Binksternet (talk) 18:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to go off into the ozone, but I still don't understand how every blog or news site asks users to log in to post a simple comment, yet WP lets anyone write anything from anywhere with only an internet connection. And it's an encyclopedia! Almost every V is from an IP, which requires constant housekeeping. --Light show (talk) 19:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, I'd support making Wikipedia a registered users-only service for that very reason. It would be interesting to see how that goes over with the rest of the community, though. WikiRedactor (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, discourage anonymous edits on all articles, as you want. In the meantime, if you want to ignore what WP:BADIDEA stands for, then please propose this in WP:VPPR, not here. --George Ho (talk) 22:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * the above not needed. There was 1 sockpuppet IP in the RM, so what. The problem with the RM wasn't the IP, I'm afraid the problem was you (a) ignoring again repeated requests from editors not to place RMs to question mark, (b) not following WP:RM guidelines about what to present in the template. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A big no' to unregistered users. And guys lets not tangent off the topic. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 04:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Filmography?
In most biographies of actors and actresses in Wikipedia (of which Madonna is one, according to the opening line of her article) there is a section entitled "Filmography" which rather helpfully lists all the films they've appeared in. I didn't find any such thing here and was a little frustrated as I wanted to see the extent of her acting career. Can we remedy this?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The most big female artist of all time
According to several (good) source, Madonna is the most successful and influential female artist of all time. Please check references in several languages like English, Spanish, French, Italian, German, Portuguese.... (the most important languages around the world). So we can write this date in the lead. Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.213.226 (talk) 22:09, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


 * As VH1 (Greatest Woman In Music) according to several sources, Madonna is the most influential woman artist of all-time. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.6.158.103 (talk) 17:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Some references


 * The World Music Awards:.
 * CNN:
 * VH1:
 * Telcel: (Spanish)
 * Yahoo!: (Spanish)
 * Antena 3 (Spain): (Spanish)
 * NBC News:
 * World Record Academy:
 * The Sun (United Kingdom):

Please, add this information in the lead. Thanks.

Net Worth
Contrary to some popular opinion, Madonna is not a billionaire. Back in March 2013, a little-known Madonna fan blog misinterpreted the fact that her MDNA tour grossed $300 million to mean that Madonna herself was $300 million richer and therefore a billionaire. First off, even if Madonna did somehow make $300 million, after taxes, she would only be worth $950 million which is not quite a billionaire. But more importantly, the claim that $300 million in gross concert revenue equates to a net $300 million increase in her personal wealth is grossly misinformed. That $300 million number is gross revenue, which means before costs are taken out. Madonna is lucky to take home 10-20% of her tour's profits after all expenses are removed. That would still be a very nice income, but nowhere near $300 million. Unfortunately, many reputable media outlets helped spread this false rumor by snowballing the story as fact across hundreds of websites, magazines and newspapers. The rumor has since been debunked by virtually every reputable wealth tracking media outlet including Forbes, CelebrityNetWorth, Bloomberg and more. CouplandForever (talk) 07:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Superbowl Correction
Just wanted to point out that while the article says the Superbowl performance was the highest rated halftime show in history, it does NOT point out that it was the highest rated event in US TV history. It's yet another record she has and should be pointed out. (Djackson84 (talk) 21:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC))
 * Like that section aboe you posted, this has been discussed time and again not to overload the article with WP:PEACOCKy terms and exaggeration. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 05:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

so the truth is considered, a "Peacock" term? She does hold the title, and she did set the record. It's two simple important additions. Neither is an exaggeration. (71.165.198.175 (talk) 20:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC))
 * A "title" has to have significance. More specifically, a title is a rank, office or attainment. "Queen of Pop" is not a title, it's a nickname. It doesn't actually MEAN anything. You cannot literally be "the Queen of Pop" in the same sense that you can be "the Queen of England". CouplandForever (talk) 07:14, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

The "Queen of Pop" title must be included
As several fans have asked you before, you simply must include Madonna's official title as the Queen of Pop. Not only has she been referred to as this for the better portion of her 3-decade career, but she is the highest grossing female artist in history, has the two highest selling tours by a solo artist, and was officially given this title by Rolling Stone magazine, after they took a public poll, she won by a landslide. I beg that you put your personal issues with her aside ( as they have unfairly kept her from receiving this edit in the past) and consider adding this deeply important title to the article. If not next to her name, where it rightfully belongs, at least someone notable on the page. No other artist has been praised with this title with the frequency she has, over the amount of time she has, and by such notable sources. (Djackson84 (talk) 21:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC))


 * I don't think you understand what the word "official" means. Her title as "Queen of Pop" is the exact opposite of official; it is informal. No one of any authority bestowed this name upon her. It isn't part of her actual name. It does not belong in the heading of an encyclopedic article about her. CouplandForever (talk) 07:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Who Officially gave the title to Michael Jackson? You include it on his page. She was bestowed this title by Rolling Stone magazine. Not sure what more you want. Obviously it's just a nickname, but no other artist has been praised as this so often, or earned it. There's no excuse to not include it other than your personal sexist opinion toward her. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.200.48 (talk) 03:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned in six instances in the article (even in the lead), how on earth have you missed it? Also read WP:PA, User:CouplandForever hasn't been in the slightest sexist by responding to your comment, screaming inflammatory accusations is going to get you nowhere. —JennKR | ☎ 16:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Enough with this topic. First, I already fixed the problem.

It is not appropriate to indicate that "Queen of Pop" is a formal title, nor much less, as well others like "King of Pop" (Michael Jackson's biography say that is a honorific nickname). Even, Guinness World Records says that "Queen of Pop" is a title, and suggests that is for Madonna, but we don't write that is a title, because is just a simple honorific nickname.

Regarding my edition, I think I've done all the "legal steps" to include and / or larger, specify, etc on the subject in the lead. What better to include (specifically) IFPI or Guinness World Record? To my knowledge, these means are the only global weight that have been referred as Queen of Pop to Madonna, simply. It is an issue that has been treated with even all sides and shadows before. So I hope, does not more create more problems. Best Regards and thanks, Chrishonduras (talk) 21:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There has never been a problem with the assertion she has received this nickname (and extensively), what is a problem is the amount of attention—both in-article and discussion—that this receives. Madonna's life and career is far more interesting than these journalistic brandings like "Queen of Pop" and "Greatest X Y and Z", yet its these things that fans who come to Wikipedia articles focus on to push there favourite artist to some sort of higher degree. Of course Madonna has been referred to as the Queen of Pop, but her legacy and influence goes beyond these superlatives, and it's far more important to concentrate energies in presenting what exactly she has impacted in the article., I've partially edited your submission which mentions IFPI and Guiness World Records (which aren't international publications per se but organisations that represent artists and keep track of world records, respectively). I think some of your insertions are slightly non-neutral, specifically the way you changed a paragraph to basically read Madonna is the Queen of Pop, the most influential, the most iconic. I understand she has been cited as all of these, but what all of these essentially do is bring the reader back to the view that Madonna is the Queen of Pop, and this, of course, can be said in one sentence and not five. Please also consider the fact that the "Legacy" section discusses this at length and when such an extensive presentation of how amazing she is takes up five sentences of the lead, it comes across as nothing more than puffery. The Michael Jackson article has been mentioned, and its lead achieves a good balance: its nicely summarised, doesn't repeat itself and focuses, as it should, on factual achievement. —JennKR | ☎ 22:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the comments became "inflammatory" because this has been such an egregious oversight for so long, and many fans feel that personal bias is what led to the exclusion. Finally this inclusion has been made. Thank goodness someone finally saw reason and truth. While I would personally say the name is equal to MJ, at least it's finally there. Thank god! 173.60.200.48 (talk) 23:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said in my first comment, the mention of her as the "Queen of Pop" could be found in the lead, and six further instances in the article, for at least half a year—I'm confused to how this an "oversight" when it's always been there? Also, no personal attack is warranted by the fact that a user feels like something should be included; claiming somebody is sexist is offensive. —JennKR | ☎ 00:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

She started playing the guitar only recently
Article says "While performing as a dancer for the French disco artist Patrick Hernandez on his 1979 world tour, Madonna became romantically involved with musician Dan Gilroy. Together, they formed her first rock band, the Breakfast Club, for which Madonna sang and played drums and guitar". Besides singing there is no proof of her playing any instrument, and in fact she started learning to play the guitar around 2007. I also believe that, despite her wide recognition as an artist at many levels, including her in the category "American female guitarists" is a bit of a stretch. 84.127.181.237 (talk) 21:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Per the source (Morton 2002) I can see, she is indeed noted as saying to have learnt guitar. Also there is ample proof of her playing the drums and guitar, including live and televised performances from the Music era most notably "Don't Tell Me" performance of David Letterman, her first performance playing a guitar. She is not noted as an exceptionally gifted guitar player, however she can play. And nowhere it says that the Category:American female guitarists is only for good guitarist musicians. So your thesis that she started learning playing guitar in 2007 is original research and has no place in the encyclopedia. —<font size="2" face="Courier New" color="#6F00FF"> Indian: <font color="#FF033E">BIO  · [ <font face="Tempus Sans ITC" color="#1C1CF0">ChitChat ] 09:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)